Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-19-2005, 08:01 AM   #1
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Did you feel anything?

Some years ago, my Sensei was performing irimi nage (from shomeunchi) on me. Halfway through the movement, he suddenly stopped and asked -- did you feel anything? It then dawned on me (I'm not very alert ) that he had moved me around without my realizing it -- and he was about to enter and throw me!

More recently, I had an opportunity to train at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo. One of the senior practitioners (25plus years) was praising a particular sensei he had attacked. He said that attacking this sensei was like falling through a trap door -- before you knew it, you were on the floor -- in other words, he had not felt anything prior to falling down…

I was wondering:
(1) Is this a skill level that some people out there are trying to achieve?
(2) Does it require uke to have some level of experience? (I assume nage knows the waza quite well)
(3) Does it have something to do with the waza itself?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2005, 08:08 AM   #2
batemanb
 
batemanb's Avatar
Dojo: Seibukan Aikido UK
Location: body in UK, heart still in Japan
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,031
Offline
Re: Did you feel anything?

In answer to your questions.

1. Definately something I am working towards.

2. It requires an honest attack from uke, therefore probably does require an experienced uke to a degree, at least someone confident in their ukemi to give an honest attack.

3. It's a combination of all the things that we work on when practicing aikido techniqus, ma ai, irimi, timing, balance and movement.

Best regards

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2005, 11:32 AM   #3
Marxama
Dojo: Sandviken Aikido
Location: Ockelbo
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 16
Sweden
Offline
Re: Did you feel anything?

As for question two: After having trained for two-three months (with no prior MA-training), I went to my first seminar, where Shishiya-sensei did an ikkyo-ura from ai-hanmi katatedori on me. Felt nothing at all, but I ran around him until I was on the floor. Totally amazing

Marcus Magnusson
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2005, 12:06 PM   #4
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,035
United_States
Offline
Re: Did you feel anything?

(1) Is this a skill level that some people out there are trying to achieve?

yes.

(2) Does it require uke to have some level of experience? (I assume nage knows the waza quite well)

no.

(3) Does it have something to do with the waza itself?

what do you mean ?

it definitely has something to do with understanding how to capture and lead a person's mind and understanding what details in waza make that happen is certainly important.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2005, 01:06 PM   #5
Pauliina Lievonen
 
Pauliina Lievonen's Avatar
Dojo: Jiki Shin Kan Utrecht
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 562
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Did you feel anything?

Reading the beginning of the thread, I was going to answer: 1. yep. 2. nope. 3. what do you mean?

then I got to Craig's answer...

kvaak
Pauliina
who was brought up by the aikido-l, or was it just a coincidence?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2005, 01:20 PM   #6
Stefan Stenudd
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Stefan Stenudd's Avatar
Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
Location: Malmo
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 538
Sweden
Offline
Like doing it to oneself

Thanks, Soon-Kiang Phang, for this thread! I love it.
I think this experience is fundamental in what aikido shuld be. , the joining of tori's and uke's ki, would lead to it.

So, yes I focus on it.

As for the second question, I agree with Batemanb. Uke needs to be confident enough to do an honest attack, which does not mean hard, but with a clear intention.
Beginners can do that, too, of course. Some advanced cannot.

The third question has been splendidly answered by Craig.
Myself, I try to be honest as tori, too: Wanting to accomplish this smooth joining, not for defeating uke, but for the very joining. When I have other ambitions, I find that my technique gets flawed.

An old friend of mine told me how he experienced Nakazono sensei's techinque: He felt that he was doing it on himself, although he was the uke. That's a nice ideal, I think.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Aikidostenudd
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2005, 02:41 PM   #7
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Re: Did you feel anything?

See Craig's post.

My take on #2: I experienced this not feeling anything much more when I had less experience. Now that I have some idea what's going on I can follow along better and can pay attention to the feeling as opposed to focusing on not dying during the fall

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2005, 06:28 PM   #8
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Did you feel anything?

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
I was wondering:
(1) Is this a skill level that some people out there are trying to achieve?
(2) Does it require uke to have some level of experience? (I assume nage knows the waza quite well)
(3) Does it have something to do with the waza itself?
1) Excellent question. This is definately something I am trying to achieve and am trying to get everyone I teach to understand as one of the goals in our execuction of a technique.

When it was first described to me (or perhaps when I first remembered the words) it was likened to uke being continuously, but not consciously dependent upon shite for their balance so that they were continuously falling at a rate controlled by shite with no way to regain their own balance.

2) I would say *ideally* not. In my experience it is easier when uke has a good, honest, committed attack, however I believe that shite's role in this whole technique thing includes helping uke to become unbalanced, no matter if their attack is strong or not.

3) The fundamental principles of Aikido can be found within every technique, so from that respect everything we do on the mat should help lead us to this goal.

My few yen...

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2005, 07:15 AM   #9
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Did you feel anything?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:

(3) Does it have something to do with the waza itself?

what do you mean ?

it definitely has something to do with understanding how to capture and lead a person's mind and understanding what details in waza make that happen is certainly important.
Craig, I completely agree with you that it depends on the ability to lead a person's mind. But, I meant to ask if the ease with which one can achieve this level of skill depends on the technique itself.

My initial example was based on shomenuchi iriminage. I've also experienced something similar with shihonage - where nage spun me around very smoothly and brought me down without my feeling the typical wrench on the shoulder... I'm still in wonder when I remember that experience

These two examples are basically throwing techniques. I was wondering if it's possible to bring uke down without him feeling anything when doing something like ikkyo
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2005, 07:26 AM   #10
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 659
England
Offline
Re: Did you feel anything?

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
In answer to your questions.

1. Definately something I am working towards.

2. It requires an honest attack from uke, therefore probably does require an experienced uke to a degree, at least someone confident in their ukemi to give an honest attack.

3. It's a combination of all the things that we work on when practicing aikido techniqus, ma ai, irimi, timing, balance and movement.

Best regards

Bryan
Not for the first time I agree with Brian.

This is something I've experience on many occasions with Pierre Chassange. all the elements of his aikido seem to be so perfectly proportioned that his work is seemingly effortless.

In some ways this harmony of elements is what I see a ki being manifested.

With other senior instructors I've often felt they they were incredibly powerful but few have made the whole thing seem so effortless.

I can certainly relate to the trap door analogy.. it almost feels as if I could be knocked over with a feather!

Cheers

D
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2005, 05:50 PM   #11
Stefan Stenudd
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Stefan Stenudd's Avatar
Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
Location: Malmo
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 538
Sweden
Offline
Ikkyo

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
I was wondering if it's possible to bring uke down without him feeling anything when doing something like ikkyo
Absolutely! If it cannot be done with ikkyo, it just cannot be done. It is a question of attitude in tori, not a question of technique. If tori sincerely and wholeheartedly joins with uke's intention, then there is this feeling of no conflict/nothing. Accept the attack wholeheartedly, and ikkyo will be this joyous.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Aikidostenudd
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2005, 07:31 PM   #12
bryce_montgomery
 
bryce_montgomery's Avatar
Location: Tupelo, MS
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 180
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote:
Absolutely! If it cannot be done with ikkyo, it just cannot be done. It is a question of attitude in tori, not a question of technique. If tori sincerely and wholeheartedly joins with uke's intention, then there is this feeling of no conflict/nothing. Accept the attack wholeheartedly, and ikkyo will be this joyous.
Splendidly put!

Thank you Stefan. I agree whole-heartedly.

Bryce
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2005, 11:36 PM   #13
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: Did you feel anything?

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
(2) Does it require uke to have some level of experience?
I think the answer is yes, but in different terms than others have posted here. Many beginners( and a large number of more advanced people) don`t seem to have much kinesthetic sense. They feel with their eyes, ie, if they can`t see the hand on them, they can`t feel it. Also, the closer one touches a partner`s center, the more many seem not able to feel it. I have off balanced people several times with a hand on the lower back/hip in iriminage, and they have told me that I threw them without touching them. I think that as one progresses, the person can start to feel that they are being touched, that there is no magic involved.

Charles
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2005, 12:57 AM   #14
Sonja2012
 
Sonja2012's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Verein Esslingen
Location: Duisburg
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 193
Germany
Offline
Re: Did you feel anything?

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
(2) Does it require uke to have some level of experience? (I assume nage knows the waza quite well)
I would have said "yes" to this question, if I hadn´t had the following experience:

Quite a while back, when I was still trying to work out breakfalls and was a bit afraid of them, sensei got asked a question about koshi nage. He answered and grabbed me to demonstrate what he meant. I attacked ryote tori and all of a sudden - without any fear, pain or anything - I found myself lying on the floor. He had thrown me into a breakfall and I hadn´t seen it coming the slightest bit. It was a very cool experience! Even though I had some ukemi skills, I certainly didn´t have the breakfall skills, yet the technique was executed just as well as with any of the higher graded ukes.

So now, I am not so sure about the answer to this question.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2005, 02:01 AM   #15
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Did you feel anything?

Yes. No. Yes.

I have thrown jujitsuka like this without touching them. Admittedly his ukemi was above par, but he had no idea of the waza. There is a similar waza in jujitsu called hachi-mawashi, but nothing like the level of sophistication of a correctly executed irimi-nage.

The look on his face was priceless when he got up off the mat...followed by the "how did you do that?"

Apparently it felt like his feet were being pulled out from under him as he was momentarily suspended in mid-air, horizontal to the ground.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2005, 10:28 AM   #16
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Did you feel anything?

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
I think the answer is yes, but in different terms than others have posted here. Many beginners( and a large number of more advanced people) don`t seem to have much kinesthetic sense. They feel with their eyes, ie, if they can`t see the hand on them, they can`t feel it. Also, the closer one touches a partner`s center, the more many seem not able to feel it. I have off balanced people several times with a hand on the lower back/hip in iriminage, and they have told me that I threw them without touching them. I think that as one progresses, the person can start to feel that they are being touched, that there is no magic involved.

Charles
That's very interesting. I never thought of it that way. I seem to have forgotten the importance of connecting with uke's center. Thanks for the reminder.

Could you please share with us (in detail) how you off-balance people with a hand on the lower back/hip? Also, any advice for connecting with uke's center would be greatly appreciated.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2005, 11:45 AM   #17
Stefan Stenudd
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Stefan Stenudd's Avatar
Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
Location: Malmo
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 538
Sweden
Offline
Connecting to uke's center

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
Also, any advice for connecting with uke's center would be greatly appreciated.
Oh, that's not easy. No good method immediately comes to mind.

A good start might be in aikiken. Face uke in chudan kamae, tips of the both bokken touching slightly (or at a short distance, as Nishio sensei prefered to do it). This is center connecting to center. When uke initiates an attacking move from that position, tori reacts, and that's good training of connecting with uke's center, IMHO.

Another good exercise is morotedori (katate ryotedori), because in this attack uke is naturally very centered. It's difficult for tori to do anything without first connecting with uke's center, and sort of bring the aikido technique out from there.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Aikidostenudd
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Poll: In which aikido role do you feel more physically comfortable? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 11 01-26-2007 11:15 PM
Poll: How inspired do you feel these days in your aikido training? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 12 03-28-2006 12:32 PM
Techniques feel good/bad? cck Training 21 06-26-2005 10:32 AM
Anyone else feel this way sometimes? Dennis Hooker General 7 02-26-2003 02:05 PM
Want to feel "KI"? chadsieger General 1 01-14-2003 02:49 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:52 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate