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Old 05-18-2005, 11:58 PM   #1
Neil Mick
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Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Amazing, isn't it? The audacity of the current Administration never fails to amaze. The Pentagon cries about the Newsweek story about the desecration of Koran's in interrogations, and the White House piles the pressure on, for Newsweek to kill the story.

Bush to Newsweek: You see what all of your factual reporting has done? Why, RIOTS are being caused! Ppl are getting HURT, because you have the audacity to report the facts!

Note: no one has actually claimed that the actual desecrations are false. Only, that Newsweek was irresponsible for publishing the story.

I so love it in instances such as this, where US mainstream media caves into the tantrum's d'jour of the White House. Where are the proclaimers of the "Liberal Media Bias" myth, now?

No, BushCo wanted to make an example of Newsweek. It seemed that the media haven't gotten the "message," when they showed Dan Rather the torture-instruments, and he recanted.

Ah, First Amendment...we hardly knew ye. Give us a fond farewell, as you enter into that faraway land of civil liberties lost, will ye?
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Old 05-19-2005, 12:44 AM   #2
DustinAcuff
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

mmmm....Neil....bud.....I have no idea what you are talking about. Please put up a link or nutshell it. I can under you are upset about something Bush did, but what was it?
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Old 05-19-2005, 03:37 AM   #3
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Okay,,, Maybe it's just me but this has __NOTHING__ to do with Aikido.

If I want to get political blogs and commentary, I'll go to some political blogs (Of which I do read plenty thank you very much). However, this is not the place for this. At least that's what I think. However, Jun is the boss here so it's his decision.

Jun, to you.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-19-2005, 07:48 AM   #4
Hogan
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Quote:
Yann Golanski wrote:
Okay,,, Maybe it's just me but this has __NOTHING__ to do with Aikido.

If I want to get political blogs and commentary, I'll go to some political blogs (Of which I do read plenty thank you very much). However, this is not the place for this. At least that's what I think. However, Jun is the boss here so it's his decision.

Jun, to you.
This is the only thing that Neil does..... the "court jester" so to speak, on politics here.
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Old 05-19-2005, 08:16 AM   #5
Anat Amitay
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

John and Yann,
It might not be related to Aikido, but Neil posted under "open discussion" which does mean what it says. Even if it isn't correlated to Aikido, we are all human beings and still have other interests and want to share them with our fellow aikidoka worldwide (or cross country). You don't have to answer or read forums that don't interest you, but as long as Jun gave the option for other topics other than Aikido, you can't get mad at those who write in them. It's like someone will get angry at me since I had a chat in the chat room about dogs and not how I can better blend with my partner.
All of us are different and have different interests, don't be angry about it, find those links/ forums that interest you.
And most of all,
Enjoy training!
Anat
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Old 05-19-2005, 09:54 AM   #6
Michael Neal
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Newsweek retracted the story because they could not back it up with facts, get over it. it was newsweek that was at fault not George Bush.
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Old 05-19-2005, 09:54 AM   #7
Hogan
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Quote:
Anat Eliraz (Amitay) wrote:
John and Yann,
It might not be related to Aikido, but Neil posted under "open discussion" which does mean what it says. Even if it isn't correlated to Aikido, we are all human beings and still have other interests and want to share them with our fellow aikidoka worldwide (or cross country). You don't have to answer or read forums that don't interest you, but as long as Jun gave the option for other topics other than Aikido, you can't get mad at those who write in them. It's like someone will get angry at me since I had a chat in the chat room about dogs and not how I can better blend with my partner.
All of us are different and have different interests, don't be angry about it, find those links/ forums that interest you.
And most of all,
Enjoy training!
Anat

Who said I was angry ? Mearly filling in for Yann what Neil's role in life is here....
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Old 05-19-2005, 11:20 AM   #8
GLWeeks
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Newsweek retracted the story because they could not back it up with facts, get over it. it was newsweek that was at fault not George Bush.

I agree...
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Old 05-19-2005, 01:20 PM   #9
deepsoup
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

I'm afraid I agree too - the story doesn't seem to have been well enough supported to broadcast it, especially considering the consequences of the broadcast. Heads rolled at the BBC over less.

As for the first amendment, I guess its increasingly irrelevent anyway, as more and more of the media are owned by a few individuals and organisations with, shall we say, their own agenda. There's no need for the government to curtail the freedom of the press when the press itself will do it. (In return for a disturbingly undemocratic degree of influence over government policy, of course.)

Yann,
I'm with Anat. This is the 'open' discussion forum, and some of us are interested in this stuff, if you don't like it don't read it, but as long as posters treat each other with respect (unlike John, above), there is no such thing as "off topic" here.

Sean
x

Last edited by deepsoup : 05-19-2005 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 05-19-2005, 02:23 PM   #10
Hogan
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
... but as long as posters treat each other with respect (unlike John, above),...
Sean
x

At least I don't throw around baseless comments and accusations, like you, apparantly, and Neil.

But you two go ahead and enjoy each other....
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Old 05-19-2005, 09:27 PM   #11
Neil Mick
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
mmmm....Neil....bud.....I have no idea what you are talking about. Please put up a link or nutshell it. I can under you are upset about something Bush did, but what was it?
My point is that reports of Koran-desecration are hardly new. Previous Koran desecrations in front of US-held prisoners has already been documented. However, the Bush Admin's attempt to squelch this story is another attempt at stomping on our First Amendment rights.

Desecration of Koran Had Been Reported Before

Quote:
James Yee, a former Muslim chaplain at the prison who was investigated and cleared of charges of mishandling classified material, has asserted that guards' mishandling and mistreatment of detainees' Korans led the prisoners to launch a hunger strike in March 2002. Detainee lawyers, attributing their information to an interrogator, have said the strike ended only when military leaders issued an apology to the detainees over the camp loudspeaker. But they said mishandling of the Koran persisted.

Erik Saar, a former Army translator at Guantanamo Bay who has written a book about mistreatment of detainees at the military prison, said in interviews and in his book that he never saw a Koran flushed in a toilet but that guards routinely ignored prisoners' sensitivities by tossing it on the ground while searching their cells.

And numerous detainees, whose stories are uncorroborated, have said to various media outlets that at detention facilities in Guantanamo Bay and Afghanistan, the Koran was stepped on, tossed on the floor and placed in latrines.

"They tore the Koran to pieces in front of us, threw it into the toilet," former detainee Aryat Vahitov told Russian television in June 2004.
The gov't does not like the story, and so they lean on Newsweek, decrying how could they report on what is already known, and cause riots, no less!

But, I idly wondered how many of the Bush-faithful choir would jump up here and proclaim that this reporting of old news is just kicking up dust, where none occurs, such as...

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
This is the only thing that Neil does..... the "court jester" so to speak, on politics here.
Yep, leave it to John to come lead in with an insult. Sans rational debate, it's his only weapon in his rhetorical toolbox.

Nice to see you too, John.

Or,

Quote:
Yann Golanski wrote:
Okay,,, Maybe it's just me but this has __NOTHING__ to do with Aikido.
Yeah, Yann: I'm with Sean: it IS "just you." This is the "open discussions" section (subheading--"Open Forum on ANY Topic"). Unless, you wish us to cease discussion on Gun Control, favorite movies, or how to make shuriken, as well.

Until then: NEXT! (But, before you go...happy birthday )


Quote:
Anat Eliraz (Amitay) wrote:
All of us are different and have different interests, don't be angry about it, find those links/ forums that interest you.
And most of all,
Enjoy training!
Anat
Well said, Anat.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Newsweek retracted the story because they could not back it up with facts, get over it. it was newsweek that was at fault not George Bush.
Ahh, what happy, sleepytime myths you live in, Michael. Riiight: Newsweek backed down from an already documented story because they couldn't find any credible references. Sure: it had NOTHING to do with political pressure. One of the more Conservative and reputable mainstream periodicals in the nation cannot find other sources on an action reported in several other international outlets...uh huh.

And the war on terror is going well, and Luis Posada didn't really sneak in under the noses of Homeland Security, and there really were wmd's found in Iraq.

Just as Bush the Lesser said, there were. Ahhhh: it's so EASY being tranquilized by the steady drone of the Fox/mainstream news, isn't it? You see a clear trampling of the First Amendment, and you look no further than the surface, for answers.

Back to sleepytime, Michael. In the meantime: I STILL await my answers to my previous questions:

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
I await Michael Neal's response to my questions, with baited breath (unless, as I suspect: he cannot answer these questions, and he's lurking in the virtual background, unable to answer).

1. If the mainstream media is so biased, then why were anti-war sources not given any time, during the invasion?

2. If the mainstream media (CNN, et al) is biased, how can "Project Censored" exist? If there WERE a real bias, such a list would be irrelevant.
Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
I'm afraid I agree too - the story doesn't seem to have been well enough supported to broadcast it, especially considering the consequences of the broadcast. Heads rolled at the BBC over less.
See my points, above. The case of Koran's being desecrated has been documented elsewhere.

Quote:
As for the first amendment, I guess its increasingly irrelevent anyway, as more and more of the media are owned by a few individuals and organisations with, shall we say, their own agenda.
The First Amendment will ALWAYS be relevant, in regards to the news.

Quote:
There's no need for the government to curtail the freedom of the press when the press itself will do it. (In return for a disturbingly undemocratic degree of influence over government policy, of course.)
Good point. But, even a self-censoring, co-opted press will sometimes run afoul of the Powers That Be.



Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
At least I don't throw around baseless comments and accusations, like you, apparantly, and Neil.
Nah, you just come along and initiate thread-lock by lobbing the first insults.

But, ask for references, and ye shall receive. Unlike some, I stand by every word (even my mistakes).

Last edited by Neil Mick : 05-19-2005 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 05-20-2005, 06:03 AM   #12
makuchg
 
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

While not often agreeing with Neil, I do here. The reporting of information by the media should be free of governmental (read White House in this case) interferrence. While the government has every right to pursue their agenda and even push to have it reported, the unbiased approach to reporting information has been replaced with shock headlines and placating stories.

Here is an excellent article on the Koran desecretions: http://seattle.indymedia.org/en/2005/05/246117.shtml

Just by reading this article I find it hard to believe that Newsweek could not find adaquate sources to confirm their story. Either way, who cares if they could substantiate it after the fact? The purpose of journalism is to report information for public scrutiny, not perform the scrutiny for us. If all they had was an anonymous source, how much credibility would it gather? If you read it and believe it, keep reading. If you read it and doubt Newsweeks credibility, read something else. You don't have to accept it as fact just because it is "reported." Are they worried that mainstream America isn't smart enough to form opinions and will believe everything that is printed? I hope we haven't sunk to that point (as a country). Here's an idea, why don't we force (through governmental legislation) all news stories must have two named sources, must be investigated by a neutral third party, and receive an OK from the applicable governmental agency prior to release!

Better yet, put blinders on me, take away my ability to reason, and just tell me what I should think!

Gregory Makuch
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Old 05-20-2005, 07:52 AM   #13
Hogan
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Yep, leave it to John to come lead in with an insult. Sans rational debate, it's his only weapon in his rhetorical toolbox.

Nice to see you too, John.

Quote:
Nah, you just come along and initiate thread-lock by lobbing the first insults.

Hey, who said it was an insult ?? Court jesters are invaluable providers of entertainment !
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Old 05-20-2005, 08:13 AM   #14
Michael Neal
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

It is pointless to argue with lunatics
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Old 05-20-2005, 08:30 AM   #15
dan guthrie
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendment

Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote:
While not often agreeing with Neil, I do here. The reporting of information by the media should be free of governmental (read White House in this case) interference. While the government has every right to pursue their agenda and even push to have it reported, the unbiased approach to reporting information has been replaced with shock headlines and placating stories.

Here is an excellent article on the Koran desecretions: http://seattle.indymedia.org/en/2005/05/246117.shtml

Just by reading this article I find it hard to believe that Newsweek could not find adequate sources to confirm their story. Either way, who cares if they could substantiate it after the fact? The purpose of journalism is to report information for public scrutiny, not perform the scrutiny for us. If all they had was an anonymous source, how much credibility would it gather? If you read it and believe it, keep reading. If you read it and doubt Newsweek's credibility, read something else. You don't have to accept it as fact just because it is "reported." Are they worried that mainstream America isn't smart enough to form opinions and will believe everything that is printed? I hope we haven't sunk to that point (as a country). Here's an idea, why don't we force (through governmental legislation) all news stories must have two named sources, must be investigated by a neutral third party, and receive an OK from the applicable governmental agency prior to release!

Better yet, put blinders on me, take away my ability to reason, and just tell me what I should think!


Without touching on the veracity of the Newsweek story, journalists do not publish rumors or hearsay. There is a code of ethics. They are the gatekeepers of information. It is precisely their job to do all of the necessary scrutiny for us.

For example: the names of rape victims and minors accused of crimes are withheld.
The National Enquirer has looser standards than Newsweek. If you want rumors then read that rag.

There's an old cliche, supposedly from a Chicago newspaper: You say your mother loves you? Check it out.



Newsweek has lost credibility. It will take a long time for that trust to be regained. I would hope that their efforts would be to nail this story down once and for all.
I, personally, don't think the military would systematically abuse the Koran. It doesn't make sense. The Koran has a unique place in Moslem theology: it is the revealed word of God, period. If you want to read it you must learn to read Arabic.
I'm not that strong a Christian but flushing Genesis down the loo would give me a two week morale boost.
.
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Old 05-20-2005, 08:31 AM   #16
Michael Neal
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

But I will anyway just for fun

Quote:
Ahh, what happy, sleepytime myths you live in, Michael. Riiight: Newsweek backed down from an already documented story because they couldn't find any credible references. Sure: it had NOTHING to do with political pressure. One of the more Conservative and reputable mainstream periodicals in the nation cannot find other sources on an action reported in several other international outlets...uh huh.

And the war on terror is going well, and Luis Posada didn't really sneak in under the noses of Homeland Security, and there really were wmd's found in Iraq.

Just as Bush the Lesser said, there were. Ahhhh: it's so EASY being tranquilized by the steady drone of the Fox/mainstream news, isn't it? You see a clear trampling of the First Amendment, and you look no further than the surface, for answers.

Back to sleepytime, Michael. In the meantime: I STILL await my answers to my previous questions:
BS, what documentation please provide it Neil. the story linked to by Gregory is very amusing http://seattle.indymedia.org/en/2005/05/246117.shtml, their "evidence" is from three terrorist suspects that were detained for questioning, as if they would have no motivation to make up anything. You will jhave to come up with something more credible than that.

My favorite quote form that so called news article (actually a left wing propaganda website)

Quote:
Among the most ominous comments came from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who warned, "you must be careful what you say, as well as what you do," clearly suggesting that speech opposed to the government may be criminal.
How does that cleary suggest that at all, LOL.

Bush has the right to say whatever he wants as well, he has freedom of speech like everyone else, he has a right to respond and complain to stories based on no evidence. Please show us all how the White House used its powers to stop the media from reporting. The government has done nothing to supress the First Amendment here, get a grip and stop the whining.

And again with the WMDs, stop changing the subject Neil. if you want to talk about WMDs start another thread and I wil be happy to discuss it with you.

Quote:
I await Michael Neal's response to my questions, with baited breath (unless, as I suspect: he cannot answer these questions, and he's lurking in the virtual background, unable to answer).

1. If the mainstream media is so biased, then why were anti-war sources not given any time, during the invasion?

2. If the mainstream media (CNN, et al) is biased, how can "Project Censored" exist? If there WERE a real bias, such a list would be irrelevant.
Again, not the subject of this thread, but in short the reason there was no anti-war stories aired as the invasion was happening was sinply because they wanted to remain in business, 90% of Americans would not have tolerated that in the moments we were going to war. And i have no idea what this stupid "Project Censored" is and don't care. if you want to talk about these things start another thread on this because i am tired of you changing the subject in order to avoid having to defend your original argument.
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Old 05-20-2005, 08:36 AM   #17
Michael Neal
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

and the Washingpost story, former detainees are not credible sources.
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Old 05-20-2005, 11:12 AM   #18
makuchg
 
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendment

Quote:
Dan Guthrie wrote:
Without touching on the veracity of the Newsweek story, journalists do not publish rumors or hearsay. There is a code of ethics. They are the gatekeepers of information. It is precisely their job to do all of the necessary scrutiny for us.

For example: the names of rape victims and minors accused of crimes are withheld.
The National Enquirer has looser standards than Newsweek. If you want rumors then read that rag.

There's an old cliche, supposedly from a Chicago newspaper: You say your mother loves you? Check it out.
Sorry Dan, I'm going to disagree with you. It's one thing to report the news, it's another to form judgments and pass opinions as fact. If a car bomb explodes in Tel Aviv, the report should provide FACTS, not speculation. I don't need political spin or innuendos. News reporters are no long giving just facts. Don't tell me why the news organization believes it happened or what the political reasoning is (unless you have someone claiming responsibility and providing that info). Listen to the news and listen to how much superfluous information is presented to spur public sentiment in a given direction. Even criminal trials are so grossly misreported the people formulate ideas of innocence or guilt without the whole story. You can tell what the news organization thinks by the coverage. Then when the outcome is different, everyone is shocked or surprised. Well of course you are when all you listen to is one sided.

Gregory Makuch
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Old 05-20-2005, 11:36 AM   #19
makuchg
 
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
the story linked to by Gregory is very amusing http://seattle.indymedia.org/en/2005/05/246117.shtml, their "evidence" is from three terrorist suspects that were detained for questioning, as if they would have no motivation to make up anything. You will jhave to come up with something more credible than that.
Michael, did we read the same article? Here are some quotes from the article you must have missed:

"On March 26, 2003, the Washington Post reported that a group of 18 Afghans released from Guantánamo the day before "complained that American soldiers insulted Islam by sitting on the Koran or dumping their sacred text into a toilet to taunt them."

"Further confirmation of these psychological torture methods targeting the detainees' religious beliefs came a year later with the March 2004 release of three Britons who had been held by the US for more than two years in Afghanistan and Guantánamo. " (the article goes on to give more description from each)

"Last January, lawyers for Kuwaiti detainees at Guantánamo said their clients had made similar complaints. "Several of our clients did tell us that the guards had desecrated the Koran," Kristine Huskey, of the lawyers told AFP. "At least two stated that the Koran had been thrown in a toilet, another said it had been stepped on and I believe another said it had been thrown by a guard and/or spat on."

"A New York-based attorney representing 13 Yemeni prisoners at Guantánamo also recounted "systematic" religious abuse against his clients. The attorney, Marc Falkoff, told BBC News, "The government is trying to use religion to humiliate them." He too quoted his clients as saying that American interrogators threw copies of the Koran on the ground and stepped on them. "

"Then there is Brahim Benchecrún, a 26-year-old Moroccan..."They grabbed the holy Koran, threw it on the floor, ripped it up, urinated on it and then threw it into the latrines," he said. "They stopped us from praying," he added. "When there was a call to prayer, the Americans would laugh, sing and dance."

Now, by my math it is 18 Afghans + 3 Britons + Several Kuwaitis (we'll use 3 as this is a common definition of several) + 13 Yemenis + 1 Morroccan = 38 sources from 5 seperate complaints.

Seem like many more than 3!

Gregory Makuch
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Old 05-20-2005, 03:26 PM   #20
Michael Neal
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Gregory, seems like those terror suspects and their attorneys have a great propaganda campaign going on.
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Old 05-20-2005, 03:49 PM   #21
Anat Amitay
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Dan wrote:
Without touching on the veracity of the Newsweek story, journalists do not publish rumors or hearsay. There is a code of ethics. They are the gatekeepers of information. It is precisely their job to do all of the necessary scrutiny for us.

Dan, I'm sorry to say (and agree with Gregory) that the media has long since lost it's objective- fact- giving point of view, and became very subjective, depending on what the public likes to hear and what news can make the front page and sell. There are very few (maybe a bit more) journalists who still do their true job and stick to their code of ethics.
You might say I'm writing this becuase I'm "Israeli", but it has nothing to do with it, because it's true for every place in the world.
I'm sorry that I'm not writing anything about the original topic, but I'm not to involved with news in the USA and won't comment on what I don't know.
Anat
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Old 05-20-2005, 03:53 PM   #22
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

If I'm not correct, the three British you are referring to who are complaining have been RELEASED. Last time I checked once a person is cleared they are no longer suspects. How come you still refer to them as terror suspects? The U.S. government arrested them, interrogated them, and subsequently released them. What will it take to convince you that they are no longer suspects?

On what basis are you impugning their credibility? Oh yes the media told you to; good thing we have the media to formulate your opinions.

Gregory Makuch
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Old 05-20-2005, 03:56 PM   #23
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Oh, and the 18 Afghans were released also. Are they still suspects too? Boy it's hard to get acquitted in the court of Michael Neal!

Gregory Makuch
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Old 05-20-2005, 04:00 PM   #24
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Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
and the Washingpost story, former detainees are not credible sources.
The source of that quote in the Washington Post is the Pentagon. Now there is an impartial body to judge a source's credibility when the source are accusing them of wrongdoing! Does anyone else see a conflict of interest here?

Gregory Makuch
Wandering Ronin
Spring Hill, FL
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Old 05-20-2005, 05:12 PM   #25
James Davis
 
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Dojo: Ft. Myers School of Aikido
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Smile Re: Bush to Newsweek: stuff the 1st amendmnt

"If it bleeds, it leads. If it burns, it earns." Newspapers are constantly showing us the most awful things they can find in an attempt to pique our interest. There are wonderful people and things in our communities that we will never hear about because scumbags are just too interesting. Regardless of whether this story from newsweek is true, they only used one undocumented source. That's just not professional. The smallest effort should have resulted in at least TWO anonymous sources to confirm the story. It's also strange that the guy who wrote the story has disappeared, when so many people are interested in speaking with him...
Research and confirm the things you're told. We're all sitting around typing to each other on these things, right? Let's put them to use! SOMEBODY's got to know someone who's a guard at Guantanamo Bay. Let's ask someone who's there.
The sad truth is that many of us have already made up our minds, and no amount of proof or debate will ever change them. Let's open ourselves to the truth. We may have to work pretty hard to find it, though. Everybody take care (and calm down?).
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