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Old 05-28-2005, 01:12 PM   #76
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido Works

shihonage or seonage? seonage is scary cause you go up and over the back and yes you will land on your neck if not done properly.

Kevin (who can take ukemi for koshi, but cannot do it to save my life) Leavitt
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Old 05-28-2005, 08:59 PM   #77
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Having been on the business end of a lot of shiho nages, I don't see that as a hazzard. You do have to worry about your arm unwinding and having all these muscles in your arm, shoulder, and side being pulled, strained, or ripped. But landing on your neck? Don't see it m'self.

Matter of fact, the breakfall for that isn't really a breakfall; it's called a "rear sitfall." A Judo player capable of taking a hip throw should have no problem with that. Maybe all Judo people 4th kyu and up should be required to know shiho nage. It's inexcusable if they don't because for them it's too damn easy.
You must be talking about the beginner/light way to do shihonage where uke does what you call a "sit fall", I am talking about when Nage launches you completely over into a full breakfall with shihonage. You are flipped completely over while your arm is immobilized. If Nage does a weak throw and you only get half roation you can easily land right on your head/neck without your arm to help protect it.

The breakfall itself is easy enough (for people who can do them), it is just a dangerous throw if Nage does not know what they are doing. Thats why most people do the form you are talking about most of the time. I personally think it is one of the most potentially devastating throws in Aikido.

Maybe you did not learn this full version of shihonage but it was taught in my Aikido class, it was mostly used by the upper ranks because it is a dangerous technique. My sensei mentioned that you could pretty much dislocate or break someone's arm and crack their skull on the ground at the same time with this technique if you did it with enough intent.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 05-28-2005 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 05-29-2005, 01:08 AM   #78
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Maybe you did not learn this full version of shihonage but it was taught in my Aikido class, it was mostly used by the upper ranks because it is a dangerous technique. My sensei mentioned that you could pretty much dislocate or break someone's arm and crack their skull on the ground at the same time with this technique if you did it with enough intent.
Let's see, I've been back at Aikido for about a year now. I am very inflexible and have trouble with forward ukemi. What do you think?

I have seen throws like that demonstrated, though. Sometimes nage has to yank on uke's arm at the right moment to insure uke doesn't land on their heads. And it is for the higher ranks.
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Old 06-01-2005, 10:21 PM   #79
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido Works

Guys,

I can understand the worry with Shihonage. It can be scary. Not all may be athletic, pliable, or physically able to endure the needed breakfall for shihonage.

But, there should be no problem with the hip-toss. This is the 6th throw one learns in Judo (if you go by the traditional teaching method of learning the 67 throws in order).

The Judo throws, when done properly, are designed in such a way as not to hurt Uke (the one thrown). O-goshi (hip-toss) is a fine example.

I will often do an Ukemi drill where I will make O-goshi slowly and fluidly on the student so that the student may practice his basic fall (Zippon Kaiten). O-goshi can be done where you roll Uke over the hip, or where you lift Uke up, then roll him over. By lifting Uke, then pausing, you can tell the student to prepare for the fall (tuck you chin, hold your breath...). Then you can slowly roll them over to the mat. Judo throws are such, that Tori (the one making the technique) can go slow and break Uke's fall for him, or blast Uke into the ground.

This is why I think that one should learn the 67 Judo throws before moving on to Aikido projections. A projection is related to, but not the same as a throw. A throw is a technique in which I have complete control over Uke's body and momentum. And, as I said earlier, if the throws are done right, Uke should be O.K. even if he doesn't know how to fall correctly. For example, in O-goshi, I will roll Uke for him. Even if he cannot land correctly, I can lay him down gently on his side. Uke will adjust to being flipped through the air at a controlled rate. Falling from an O-goshi then becomes reflexive.s Uke's ukemi improves, and he will advance. A projection is not as controlled in the sense that I do not always have a good hold of Uke's body. Shihonage is an example. The ukemi in a projection can depend upon uke to a great extent.

I have 4 children. Three of them wrestle (the youngest is 3yrs). All three of them can hip toss each other. Now, little kids have very pliable bodies that can handle such throws nicely when trained well, and the neat thing is that they don't think much of it. They just do what you tell them to do (yeah right). We, as adults, worry and rationalize such things. We don't have the trust of little children. We wonder, "Am I going to be able to get up out of bed the next morning?" And that is not a bad ponder sometimes.

If you go to my website, then you can see a picture of my daughter (age 8 at that time) throwing her brother (age 6 at that time) full force with O-goshi. Go to:
www.kingsportjudo.com
then got to
Training For Kids
then click on
Throw Like A Girl
it is the first picture.

I know Aikido and Hapkido instructors who do a great job at ukemi, and have their guys able to take just about any type of fall. But, at my school, because I dictate the pace of each student, I prefer my guys to be proficient in Judo before entering the study of Aikido.

Judo can be done soft, or hard. I encourage competition, but not everyone wants to compete. Not everyone can compete and excel at competitive endeavors. I have guys who could care less if they ever compete. They want to train because they think Jiu-jitsu is cool, and they want to relate to Royce Gracie at some level. Others think Judo is incredible, and they are taking Judo so they can help promote the system. I got guys who want to go through my Judo and Jiu-jitsu programs so they can get to study Aikido (nothing wrong with that). They are already surprised at how gentle and efficient Judo and Jiu-jitsu can be. Their study of Aikido will be beginning shortly.

Well, guys don't get frustrated. Koshinage is just one technique. Is it more important or less important than other techniques? NO, all the techniques are equally important. This is why we must be good at all of them.

Train hard guys!
Red Beetle.

www.kingsportjudo.com

Last edited by Red Beetle : 06-01-2005 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 06-02-2005, 05:50 AM   #80
Nick Simpson
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Re: Aikido Works

Try getting out of a reverse hip throw, now thats scary.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 06-02-2005, 06:30 AM   #81
deepsoup
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Try getting out of a reverse hip throw, now thats scary.
If you want scary judo ukemi, I'd recommend you try the ura nage from shomen uchi in the penultimate set of the Kodokan nage no kata. ..shudder..

Sean
x
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Old 06-02-2005, 07:37 AM   #82
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Works

Scary throws? Shiho combined with koshinage.

Ron

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Old 06-02-2005, 07:52 AM   #83
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Scary throws? Shiho combined with koshinage.
You know. I totally agree. I can take that ukemi all day, but it is the one technique I refuse to teach in my classes. I don't know of any apprpoach (other than the Darwinistic approach) of teaching it. Any one have some ideas for a simpler and safer approach to get new students up to taking such ukemi?!

Rob
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Old 06-02-2005, 08:01 AM   #84
Dazzler
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Scary throws? Shiho combined with koshinage.

Ron
Its pretty scarey...but what about irimi nage combined with koshinage..

I've seen pictures of Saito Sensei doing this but cant remember anyone teaching it in any aikido class I've attended.

The wrestlers seem to love it but they usually refrain from dumping the victim on his head...must make poor TV!
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Old 06-02-2005, 08:22 AM   #85
grondahl
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
Its pretty scarey...but what about irimi nage combined with koshinage..

I've seen pictures of Saito Sensei doing this but cant remember anyone teaching it in any aikido class I've attended.
I really cant get this picture in to my head.
But shionage entrance to koshi is fairly common in our practice.
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Old 06-02-2005, 08:27 AM   #86
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Irimi-koshi-nage

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
but what about irimi nage combined with koshinage.. I've seen pictures of Saito Sensei doing this but cant remember anyone teaching it in any aikido class I've attended.
Oh, it's still pretty much standard in so called Iwama ryu aikido, those who follow Saito sensei's teaching.
Actually, it's not that very scary at all, I'd say - on the other hand, in my dojo we don't do it regularly

My former teacher Ichimura sensei often did iriminage so that he entered with his leg behind uke in the throw, causing uke to fall backward over tori's leg. That was kind of scary, I remember, because uke had no way of controlling his/her ukemi in the least.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 06-02-2005, 08:42 AM   #87
grondahl
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Re: Irimi-koshi-nage

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote:
Oh, it's still pretty much standard in so called Iwama ryu aikido, those who follow Saito sensei's teaching.
Actually, it's not that very scary at all, I'd say - on the other hand, in my dojo we don't do it regularly
Then it´s just a regular iriminage in my book. And the ukemi is easy. You go in to a breakfall only if tori is good enough to actually throw you. And if they are that good they also will have control over you during the throw.

Last edited by grondahl : 06-02-2005 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 06-02-2005, 08:54 AM   #88
Dazzler
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Re: Irimi-koshi-nage

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote:
Then it´s just a regular iriminage in my book. And the ukemi is easy. You go in to a breakfall only if tori is good enough to actually throw you. And if they are that good they also have control.
The version I have in mind...and I am sure stefan will be familiar with involves slipping behind uke for irimi nage...but then reaching down with your free hand to ukes ankles and pulling uke backwards over your shoulders with the hand controlling his gi or neck.

as you stand up you have uke in a back-breaker position across your shoulders.

Is this your regular irimi nage Peter? what do you do to stretch your practice?

Cheers

D
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Old 06-02-2005, 09:30 AM   #89
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Irimi-koshi-nage

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
The version I have in mind...and I am sure stefan will be familiar with involves slipping behind uke for irimi nage...but then reaching down with your free hand to ukes ankles and pulling uke backwards over your shoulders with the hand controlling his gi or neck. as you stand up you have uke in a back-breaker position across your shoulders.
Yes, I know it. You're right - that's a scary one. With some luck, uke lands on his/her feet - but the ride itself is bewildering

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 06-02-2005, 09:42 AM   #90
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Works

Yeah, ganseki otoshi is a kicker alright. There is some discussion on E-budo I believe about the ukemi for it.

Quote:
Its pretty scarey...but what about irimi nage combined with koshinage..
This one doesn't bother me, simply because my arms are free...I can slap out of it, do a back fall, do a forward twisting roll, several different types of ukemi depending on the situation.

There is one variation though that scares the hell out of me as shite...when you keep a tight control of uke's head and the back of their neck...my uke last night had his neck give out this awesome crack! Scared the living daylights out of me!

Ron (he was fine...thankfully!)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-02-2005, 11:08 AM   #91
Nick Simpson
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Re: Aikido Works

A couple of years ago I had someone perform a bastardised mix of shihonage-koshinage with a sweep to my legs to take me over the top too. That hurt.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 06-02-2005, 12:34 PM   #92
grondahl
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Re: Aikido Works

Nope, Ganseki Otoshi is not my standard iriminage.
We try out ganseki otoshi now and again, but not that often. I dont se it often on seminars, even though Evenås Sensei did at the latest New Years seminar.

I guess that Stefan remembers Jöran Fagerlunds ganseki otoshi on his yondan-examination? That was probably the smothest one I´ve seen live.
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Old 06-02-2005, 06:43 PM   #93
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido Works

Kubi nage *shudder* I hate kubi nage.
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Old 06-03-2005, 01:00 AM   #94
grondahl
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Re: Irimi-koshi-nage

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote:
My former teacher Ichimura sensei often did iriminage so that he entered with his leg behind uke in the throw, causing uke to fall backward over tori's leg. That was kind of scary, I remember, because uke had no way of controlling his/her ukemi in the least.
A little like the ones that Nevelius and Jorma does? But without their soft flowing style of execution maybe?
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Old 06-03-2005, 04:58 AM   #95
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Irimi-koshi-nage

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote:
A little like the ones that Nevelius and Jorma does? But without their soft flowing style of execution maybe?
Not really. Nevelius/Jorma do the French style iriminage, where uke makes a forward fall, but the one I meant is a backward fall - tori's leg blocking the way. Uke slides off of tori's leg - in the friendly version.

Alex, I agree with you on kubinage. Quite unpleasant.
Kind of fun for tori, though

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 06-03-2005, 08:59 AM   #96
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido Works

Wow, that gives me an idea, a haraigoshi or uchimata combined with shihonage, that would be a really nasty throw.
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Old 06-03-2005, 09:59 AM   #97
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Works

Yeah, it would! Please don't ever throw me that way! I hate uchimata in any case...if I'm remembering that throw correctly, its way too close to the nasty bits in any case!

I'm not sure I can picture how to combine shiho with uchimata (something doesn't seem to quite line up) but combining it with leg sweeps is quite common. Especially when stepping back or pivoting. Works omote ura, whatever.

RT

PS ok, I think I figured out what I don't like about the uchimata combo...but I may just not know that throw very well. Inner thigh reap, I think? The problem is to reap on the inner thigh means that uke has to be really turned to me as shite, which I can't seem to figure out if its a folded arm shiho...even if uke is turned that far, I think I'd still have to take their wrist away from their shoulder to do that throw, which would be way too dangerous for normal practice.

If you do it with a straight arm shiho, it may work out a little better, but the positioning and balance required still seem awkward...with uchimata, what corner do you usually set uke's balance toward to do the throw? Uke's front right? This question probably shows just how weak my judo is...

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 06-03-2005 at 10:13 AM.

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Old 06-03-2005, 10:25 AM   #98
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido Works

It is hard to describe without demonstrating but the way i am imagining it would be to already be in the progress of the shihonage throw and to use the uchimata, haraigoshi, ashigaruma as a way to get an extra lift on the throw.
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Old 06-03-2005, 10:28 AM   #99
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Re: Aikido Works

Uke's front right would be one way to do uchimata, there are many variations that have different ways of entering.
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Old 06-03-2005, 11:00 AM   #100
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Works

yep, I can see the other throws working that way really well, just not uchimata (I really hate getting hit hard with that throw!)
Ron

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