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Old 05-26-2005, 10:04 AM   #51
Randathamane
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
The thing is that these techniques I used on the Judo student were done after asking him to attack me with an overhead strike and a punch to the stomach, I knew what was coming, I doubt I would have had as much success if it were more like randori.
It depends.....

When he attacks, he has the initiative of engagement- that is, you must move to counter his attack. If you do not move
This means that he is in control- so you must try to take that control from him. The priority is taking the initiative away so that HE is on the backfoot. If you move in behind him (i.E tenkan behind them) You can take the initiative by pulling him to the ground or striking at him- Now HE has to move to counter you and so you can dictate the battle.

See how it works? When you do a technique, what you are actually doing is taking the initiative away from the opponent as you are throwing them and they cannot attack you- they have to counter or respond by taking Ukemi. If they break out of the technique and you have to move- they retake the initiative.

However, if you just back off the you have a face off. The first to attack successfully will take the initiative of engagement and the whole damm thing starts over again.

You don't have time for this so the key is to figure out what attack he is going to make as they do it. Others on other threads believe that you can....
"pe-empt this attack before they make it, while they are squaring up or getting into posture"

Nonsense. If you move before the attack, they will simply change to your new position or change the attack. (we do it at home all the time).
One must wait for that split second to see what they are doing- until they are committed- until the last moment to move before you do to see what is coming. Once they are committed the cannot abort the attack (the blow is already coming your way).

Now you know what attack they are throwing and thusly can counter it on how it falls. This kind of reaction only comes with experience however and takes time to develop. good luck with it and keep up the hard work.



Good against remotes are one thing- good against the living, thats somthing else....
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Old 05-26-2005, 10:14 AM   #52
Robert Rumpf
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Koshinage breakfalls

I once had an Aikido teacher who wouldn't teach koshinages to his students. He obviously knew koshinages quite well, because when I asked him about them he demonstrated two or three that looked better than any I'd seen before in my Aikido career.

His answer to me was that koshinages were too dangerous. He claimed that every year in Japan some people die from koshinage breakfalls by landing on their neck. I don't know if what he was saying was true or not. I haven't heard of such a thing happening in America. This sensei considered the risk too great to be worth the learning reward.

This sensei's Aikido was flawless, at least to my limited understanding at the time. His students were no slouches, either.

I personally would expect that the "average" Judoka would be better at taking falls than the "average" Aikidoka as the "average" Judoka has to deal with more dangerous and uncertain conditions in terms of falling than the "average" Aikidoka has to on a regular basis.

I would think that getting thrown by someone in competition who is using a lot of muscle and speed and whose technique you are not familiar with would be very good at teaching you how to fall well under a lot of uncertainty. If Judo class is to prepare you for these competitions, I would expect that it had many of those same elements.

I have seen that two of the people whose falls I consider to be excellent have come from Judo. Two guys come to mind: Clark from my current dojo, and Kevin from my first dojo. I have also seen Aikidoka whose falls are better than theirs, but they were also more senior so its not a fair comparison.

However, ukemi is only partially represented by taking falls.

I have noticed that my own falls have had to adapt when I've switched dojos (sometimes they have gotten better, sometimes worse), but most mid-level Aikidoka I have met have not switched dojos more than once or twice and probably don't go to enough seminars to get enough different partner experience in terms of fall practice. It is entirely possible that their falling is fragile.

I have also seen at least one person get their shodan who could not take two breakfalls if you requested it. I don't think that is necessarily a problem with their Aikido, but I do view it as a potential safety issue. However, if their partner is aware of this, and if their partner has control, I don't see why doing Aikido without breakfalls isn't possible.

One of the types of people I am most terrified of training with are people who think and act as though they can fall but who cannot. Those people are extremely dangerous to themselves and to others.

Rob

Last edited by Robert Rumpf : 05-26-2005 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 05-26-2005, 10:33 AM   #53
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
The basic hip throw is a fundemental basic technique in many martial arts, inluding Ju Jitsu, Judo, Brazilian jiu Jitsu .....
Never did those.

Quote:
.... Karate .....
The throws I've seen in karate may go around the hip, but nothing up and over as in Koshi nage. In Shotokan we never did any throws at all, except for one time when Sensei had us do the setups for Judo throws.

Quote:
..... Aikido, TKD ....
The aforementioned Shotokan sensei had a black belt in TKD -- his he'd been in a school with a unique history --- and no hip throws either.

Quote:
...... By telling me that koshinage is an advanced technique in Aikido does not give me any more confidence in Aikido ....
There are plenty of arts where the hip throw does not show up *at all* in spite of your protestations to the contrary. You want to tell a Thai Boxer you have no confindence in their art because they don't do Judo-style hip throws? Bring a bucket; it's your ride home.

Quote:
I mean Aikido generally prides itself in being an art that masters the art of ukemi. If they have not mastered the most basic form of ukemi, the breakfall, then I really don't know what to say.
Well, that's the way Aikido is. They don't do things the way Judo does because they're not Judo; that's all there is to it. If you can't accept it, too bad.
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Old 05-26-2005, 10:47 AM   #54
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Well, that's the way Aikido is. They don't do things the way Judo does because they're not Judo; that's all there is to it. If you can't accept it, too bad
Its not too bad for me, it is too bad for the Aikido people who injure themselves because they can't take ukemi. And its too bad for all the Aikidoka who can not learn how to do a simple hip throw because there classmates can't take the fall. It impedes the learning process.

Robert is right, it is a safety issue at the very least. But I am not as confident as he in saying that the shodan he mentioned has perfectly fine Aikido even if he can not take breakfalls. Aikido, as it was explained to me through instruction, is at least 50% ukemi.

And some people here were arguing with me a while back that an average Aikidoka would have no problem sparring with an average Judoka, they seemed to think that the Judoka had no advantage. Well, for one thing it seems the avergae Aikidoka would get smeared by the most basic technique in the Judoka's arsenal.
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Old 05-26-2005, 10:51 AM   #55
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido Works

To all the Aikidoka that do know how to practice breakfalls and koshinage, please excuse me as I mean no disrespect to Aikido in general, just the watering down of the martial aspect of it.

I am not an expert in the history of Aikido but I find it hard to imagine that people trained with Ueshiba and were not able to do breakfalls until shodan.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 05-26-2005 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 05-26-2005, 11:07 AM   #56
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Richard Player wrote:

Nonsense. If you move before the attack, they will simply change to your new position or change the attack. (we do it at home all the time).
One must wait for that split second to see what they are doing- until they are committed- until the last moment to move before you do to see what is coming. Once they are committed the cannot abort the attack (the blow is already coming your way).
:
Aikido definately has had a profound influence on my Judo, I am very aggressive in that I do not back away from my opponent. I move right into them as they are coming to grip me, those whoe are not experienced with doing randori with me are often thrown off balance mentally by this.
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Old 05-26-2005, 11:35 AM   #57
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Works

Hi Michael,

Most of the early students of Ueshiba already knew ukemi from one source or another. From what I hear and read, ukemi wasn't 'taught'. I see the same in some schools in Daito ryu today...

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-26-2005, 11:51 AM   #58
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido Works

Ron, then I would argue that today's instructors need to take this into consideration and not be so rigidly attached to practicing Aikido so traditionally. The majority of new Aikido students do not have previous martial arts expereince. While it may be blasphemous to some, it would not hurt to borrow some of the Judo breakfall warmups practices, and do them regularly in place of other less useful warmup exercises. As well as practice koshinage more regularly. And koshinage is alot more useful than many of the Aikido techniques that are practice all the time in Aikido dojos.
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Old 05-26-2005, 11:57 AM   #59
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Re: Aikido Works

It seems to me that Aikidoka are picking and choosing when it comes to tradition, they argue that things must be taught in a certain manner because that is how O' Sensei did it, yet they don't practice anywhere near as martially hard as they did when O' Sensei was around.

The way O'Sensei did things may or may not apply in today's world.
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Old 05-26-2005, 12:10 PM   #60
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido Works

Anyway, I will shut up now. I have given my 2 cents. I will just go back to practicing Judo and will fight to keep it from becoming an aerobics workout instead of a martial art. Unfortunately this same thing is happening in all forms of martial arts, not just Aikido.

People want it to be easy to get a black belt, to rub their ego, pretend they can fight, and not break a sweat while doing it. It is the lazy American way these days, and all martial arts instructors face the decision of either losing their students or caving in some in order to accomodate them and stay in business.
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Old 05-26-2005, 12:35 PM   #61
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Ron, then I would argue that today's instructors need to take this into consideration and not be so rigidly attached to practicing Aikido so traditionally. The majority of new Aikido students do not have previous martial arts expereince.
I think that many do...the yoshinkan for instance, teaches breakfalls in just about every class. Falls that have stood me well with judoka as well as in Daito ryu practice (I may have overstated my reluctance to get thrown by you when trying to be humerous ).

Quote:
While it may be blasphemous to some, it would not hurt to borrow some of the Judo breakfall warmups practices, and do them regularly in place of other less useful warmup exercises.
Well, I would do them in addition to...I don't think any of the warmups we do are 'less usefull', from an aikido perspective. YMMV By the way, can you describe them? We do an exercise where you start sitting or kneeling, rock back, and breakfall to right or left practicing bent leg, straight leg, weight on the bent leg, hand on the straight leg side slaps. In beginners classes as well as others. Basically a judo hard fall, with more emphasis on the slapping (very early for the silent breakfall).

Quote:
As well as practice koshinage more regularly. And koshinage is alot more useful than many of the Aikido techniques that are practice all the time in Aikido dojos.
Well, I've seen many variations of koshinage...some are just begging for uke to choke you out... I happen to like the variation I learned at the yoshinkan, and add it to kotegaishi, shihonage, and a few others...but then I'm also slightly evil...

Oh, and please stop by now and again to let us know how you are doing!
Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 05-26-2005 at 12:38 PM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-26-2005, 01:50 PM   #62
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido Works

These days I am leaning more to a mixed martial arts way of life.

I guess I kind of equate it to muscians. I think the really good ones study the classics, develop a good base in one or two styles of established music such as classical, or jazz, then combine it into their own art and make it their own.

Others will choose to stay within the realm of the traditional and become really good.

I think there are many good things to learn from Aikido, and think it is a wonderful base to grow on if y ou want to become a serious, lifetime, well rounded martial artist.

Studying primarily under the army combatives system, we are taking the basics of BJJ, the mid range skills of Muay Thai and american boxing, and the weapons of kali and escrima.

I am also seeing much benefit to learning russian sambo and judo as well.

I am glad for my base in aikido as it offers a great platform to grow on...for a lifetime.
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Old 05-26-2005, 01:54 PM   #63
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Aikido Works

It all boils down to priorities. There is only so much class time, and for every thing that is emphasized, something else is deemphasized. Instructors have a very, very difficult job picking what they think needs special attention and what can actually be taught in that massed-learning environment so that every student gets something important about the art out of a class.

Michael, you seem to think that learning breakfalls is a very important part of learning martial arts. That the faster one learns those skills, the better it is for all concerned. That belief may or may not be true, and I may or may not agree with you.

Judo does agree more with your sense of priorities, so its a good thing that you practice Judo. Maybe certain Aikido schools agree with you or maybe not. Maybe certain instructors at certain schools agree with you, as well. I know that I tend to find certain instructors more in line with my thinking than others. I also know that that changes over time.

I may think it important that people be in good aerobic shape to practice Aikido. From that sense, wouldn't I be justified in making people run in Aikido class? I don't feel that way - but I could, and if I was the instructor, all of my students from the marathon runners to the hideously overweight to the 70 year olds would have to suffer through it regardless of their personal training state and goals. Some would benefit, some would find it wasteful, and others might be harmed (heart-attacks). Would I be getting at the essense of the art?

Personally, I am at the point right now where I am interested in the idea that Aikido technique success or failure is resolved at the first martial moment. Because of that, the rest of the technique after that first moment is a waste, in my current outlook. Maybe next year my point of view will change and I'll be interested in zanshin. Who knows.

I still have to do the rest of the technique though, because that is what is taught. Besides, its only fair. Uke may not share my point of view.

However, all of these opinions are irrelevent. Neither you nor I is teaching any given Aikido class, and so the only vote that we have available to us is our feet, or our voices, should they be heeded. When you run a dojo, you can encourage or discourage whatever you think is appropriate, but I doubt you'll be seeing many older or infirm people in a place with a more robust physical regime.

The idea of following a tradition with a broad set of techniques (and the idea of cross-training in general in different skills or arts) is that you get a little bit of bit everything. If you're really interested in any one thing though, you're going to be disappointed. Aikido people who love koshinages should probably go to Judo or find the rare instructor who is obsessed with them. Aikido people who love effective strikes should probably go to Karate, etc.

Like any student in any subject we are all beneficiaries and victims of the biases and awareness of our instructors. When or if we are ever instructors, we can inflict our own bias on our students and fix all the problems that exist in their Aikido that we now see, and create a whole new host of new problems for them that we won't see at that time.

I think the stronger argument is that we also have the oppurtunity and the duty to incorporate whatever we think is important in our training but lacking in other training before, after, or outside of class with whomever we can get to work on it with us. This is what I try to do. After all, it may be sensei's class but it is my Aikido.

You know how I learned koshinage? I cornered the ikkyu Eric at my last dojo and got him to teach me koshinage. In 3-4 five to ten minute solo sessions after class I learned more about koshinage than I had learned in the prior 6 years that I had been doing Aikido. For the first time I actually felt safe giving and receiving the technique... and I had known how to do other types of breakfalls well enough already.

In retrospect, that was probably the best way to learn koshinage. I think it lends itself to one-on-one instruction with the body types picked appropriately. All the other times I had tried to learn it, it was tacked on to class in a hurried way, often on a crowded mat, with an uke I didn't know or trust. It was a technique that had me scared for my safety or theirs.

You can argue that this technique shouldn't be neglected in the curriculum, but it is. In the Aikido I have seen, koshinage is not a high priority technique for lower ranked people. I am not that interested in koshinage (although it is fun) so its a good thing that I take Aikido, and not Judo.

You're right that it is a shame and a waste when people get injured because they don't know how to do breakfalls. Add randori to that list of potential problems too. For that matter, add martial arts. If people knew everything they needed to know to not get injured in Aikido class, the class would be meaningless for them to take.

Most Aikidoka will try to tell their partner how to fix something that they think is a potential injury, or tell their partner not to hurt them. I know I've pulled people aside before class to work on their rolls or falls when they look especially painful. I'm sure you would do the same thing. This is not something that is always part of the dojo culture though, and some instructors frown on this instruction by students, in part because the students sometimes say the wrong things and junior students can pick up bad or harmful habits. Some junior students even resent any sort of advice. A rare junior student is also missed and slips between the cracks without acquiring basic skills. No system is perfect.

There are three people who deserve the blame for any injury that happens through lack of student preparation (and you could argue that all injuries happen through lack of student preparation). I'm sure you can guess who they are: uke, nage, and sensei.

It can be hoped that it won't take an injury for an instructor or senior student to spend some extra time with the unskillful student and help them to learn those extra skills such as koshinage breakfalls. Unfortunately, this type of outreach is not always encouraged, allowed, or possible, and junior students are not always made aware that they can ask anyone for help, or that they can sit out of dangerous techniques if they feel uncomfortable.

I tend to walk away when I realize I am far beyond my skills, but it took me a long time to realize that I could do that. I also tend to arrive early and train my own interests. When people do these things, their training matches their interests more.

This ability to realize who needs what helps is part of beginner's mind, I think: remembering what it looked like when we were a beginner helps us to tell the new students the right things. After all, us Americans are seemingly not used to learning by example without verbal prompting. They need to be told to and encouraged to learn this way from the beginning, especially when there is not beginner class and if that is the dojo culture. This gap in expectations causes many huge problems in Aikido.

Oh yeah... I also think that breakfalls from koshinage are a distinct skill, separate from other types of breakfalls. At least for beginners, they can be much scarier. I know that I still get worried about them when I have someone throwing me in koshinage who doesn't know how to do it. I often end up throwing myself over them.

The only other technique that I can think of that also deserves a similar asterisk for special breakfalls is shihonage breakfalls with a taller, standing uke.

Rob
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Old 05-26-2005, 02:02 PM   #64
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Personally, I am at the point right now where I am interested in the idea that Aikido technique success or failure is resolved at the first martial moment. Because of that, the rest of the technique after that first moment is a waste, in my current outlook. Maybe next year my point of view will change and I'll be interested in zanshin. Who knows.
I am ALWAYS interested in this as my ulimate goal. However, I have not found it to be a reality when in full free sparring/randori with someone who is coming from many different directions, fast, with feints, and frankly does not worry about being struck a few times on his way in to achieve the clinch.

My interest right now lay in trying to figure out how to control a guy with all this going on, while not being taking to the ground so you can eventually get to a good position, namely his backside where you can then perform something like irminage. All this while watching for weapons in the other hand, and other partners he may have.

I have my work cut out!
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Old 05-26-2005, 02:07 PM   #65
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido Works

Good post Rob, I agree with just about everything you said. BTW, the shihonage breakfall is one that still scares the hell out of me to this day. I would rather be thrown with a huge Judo throw with Nage landing on top of me than do that. If Nage hesitates at all with that throw it is very easy to land right on your neck.

You also mentioned randori as a problem with inexperienced people, very true that is another reason to get beginners up to speed sooner, so that randori training can begin earlier

Last edited by Michael Neal : 05-26-2005 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 05-26-2005, 02:50 PM   #66
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Judo advance

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Aikido definately has had a profound influence on my Judo, I am very aggressive in that I do not back away from my opponent. I move right into them as they are coming to grip me, those whoe are not experienced with doing randori with me are often thrown off balance mentally by this.
Interesting strategy - quite different from what is usually seen in judo championships. FWIW, I strongly believe you have the right approach, Michael.

Somebody I knew used the same method, quite successfully, against skilled judo practicioners. To him, it was advancing with his center, sort of offering it to the partner. They could not deal with that, and lost their balance.
At the moment they applied a throwing technique, he did the opposite of what was expected - he advanced, center forward, instead of retreating. Straight posture, relaxed body, center forward.
Is that what you do, too, Michael?

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-26-2005, 02:57 PM   #67
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido Works

Yep, thats what I do alot. It also gets me close to them which is the best position to be in for Judo throws. Sometimes I just calmly walk straight at them and they often have a confused look on their face. Sometimes I even smile, they are like WTF?

It does not always work but it is better than fighting from a distance and working myself to death trying to throw them from arms length away.

Judo works best from an upright relaxed posture, just like in Aikido. Strength is important but only at the right moments.
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Old 05-26-2005, 03:06 PM   #68
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido Works

I also remember doing this some in multiple randori in Aikido, instead of retreating as most people tend to do, I would walk forward right in between the attackers and they would sometimes run into eachother or me but would fail their attack. Most of the times they would pause as well, if I was not limited to Aikido techniques during this I could have launched attacks while doing this and really shaken things up. I do miss Aikido randori alot and I wish we did more of it. I learned more about combat frorm the limited Aikido randori I did than from the many many hours practicing Aikido techniques.

This is why I am a constant advocate of randori.

I think the secret is to have no fear and be aggressive, controlled aggressiveness.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 05-26-2005 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 05-26-2005, 03:31 PM   #69
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Moving forward

Yes, I believe that the fundamental principle of taninzugake, several uke attacking simultaneously, is never to retreat. You have to move forward, in continuous taisabaki turns of your body. Once you start backing, you will be swarmed by the attackers.
When you keep on moving forward, you are literally ahead.

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Old 05-26-2005, 04:49 PM   #70
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I also remember doing this some in multiple randori in Aikido, instead of retreating as most people tend to do, I would walk forward right in between the attackers and they would sometimes run into eachother or me but would fail their attack.
This how I've been taught, too. Not necessarily what I always do, though.

One class I lead we practiced two-persons attacks from the point of view of the attackers, unfortunately the result was that a couple of the mid-kyu grades got so good at attacking that going between them didn't work anymore, I'd just get sandwiched.

BTW the one and only judo class I visited they started with some sort of shoulder throw. Ukemi was fine, but I admit I took a couple deep breaths first...

kvaak
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Old 05-27-2005, 11:06 AM   #71
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Its not too bad for me, it is too bad for the Aikido people who injure themselves because they can't take ukemi. And its too bad for all the Aikidoka who can not learn how to do a simple hip throw because there classmates can't take the fall. It impedes the learning process.
This hinges on your assumption that Judo-style hip throws are a fundamental technique to many martial arts and you can not do anything without them. I'm sorry, but that is not true.

In the past twenty years, I have done two styles of Aikido (including what I am doing now), two styles of Karate, one style of Kali, one style of Wing Chun, one Indonesian system, and I have "switched" styles of Tai Chi because someone else is taking over the class I'm in. I have seen, and on the business end of, a great many throws. There are throws you can argue are hip throws because it is used as a fulcrum, but the only time prior to Aikido where I saw anything resembleming Koshi Nage, where uke is actually picked up and dumped off nage's back, was in Shotokan class where we did the setup for that, and that was introduced as a throw from Judo, not something fundamental to Shotokan. Meaning it is not a basic Shotokan technique. And my sensei had, at that time, 4th degree black belts in Shotokan and TKD, so I'd think he'd know if it was in the syllabus or not.

I'm sorry, but based on my experience, your argument that koshi nage and its Judo equivelants are a fundamental technique all arts need does not hold water, because I have seen many arts and it is NOT a basic technique in them. And if Aikido suffers in your eyes because Koshi Nage is not the first thing you learn in Aikido, then God only knows how horrible damn near anything else looks when they don't do it at all.

But at least knocking down straw men is good exercise, so keep it up!
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Old 05-27-2005, 11:24 AM   #72
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido Works

why are you getting so defensive? I don't care if it is first technique learned or not but it is an Aikido throw and people should be able to take a breakfall from it, especially higher ranks. You obviously disgree, that is fine, but I personally would not like to learn Aikido from you or whoever teaches you.
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Old 05-27-2005, 10:39 PM   #73
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
why are you getting so defensive? .....
Are you kidding me?

This is what you said in post #50:

Quote:
"The basic hip throw is a fundemental basic technique in many martial arts, inluding Ju Jitsu, Judo, Brazilian jiu Jitsu, Karate, Aikido, TKD, etc."
I boldfaced karate because that is the art I know best -- I've been doing it for 20 years! YOU spouted off that a hip throw is a "fundemental basic technique" in an art where I know for a fact it is not in the basics. How do I know? Because I've done it. I know traditional Japanese karate quite well. Well enough to know you're wrong, and not hesitate to say so.

You can call it being defensive; I call it correcting an innacurate statement.

Quote:
I don't care if it is first technique learned or not but it is an Aikido throw and people should be able to take a breakfall from it, especially higher ranks. You obviously disgree ....
I am not saying the higher ranks shouldn't know it. I am saying Aikido people do not get to it unitl later in the training program. And I am saying that your assertion that hip throws are basic in everything but Aikido is wrong (except for Judo, of course).

Quote:
that is fine, but I personally would not like to learn Aikido from you or whoever teaches you.
Sir, that is your prerogative. I am sure my sensei, who is an unflappaby nice person, would welcome you and you'd get a good work out. If you want to pass it up, that is your choice. But if that is your reaction to having someone call you to account on some inaccurate statements, you have your own issues to resolve.
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Old 05-27-2005, 11:54 PM   #74
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido Works

M. Neal,

You are just such a Judo lover. Aikido to you is like the girl you like very much from next door, isn't it. It is attractive enough for you, but you just can't seem to get her attention, yes?

M. Neal said:
Quote:
Its not too bad for me, it is too bad for the Aikido people who injure themselves because they can't take ukemi. And its too bad for all the Aikidoka who can not learn how to do a simple hip throw because there classmates can't take the fall. It impedes the learning process.
Each person has different learning curve... some are better, some are not. Those whom you can't throw koshinage (I guess that is your favourite technique isn't it?), then do something else. You will still get him on the ground. Aikido is a mutual beneficial exercise for both party. If you know your partner can't take it and you try to force it, two outcomes I predict... you will fail the technique because uke will, from sheer panic, cling on to you for dear life and a miserable technical outcome. Or, you will force the technique through and the unprepared uke will injured himself. Either way, it is not the desired outcome of the exercise.

I am wondering why you are so fixated on getting people with koshinage. There are so many techniques to choose from to still get the desired result, aren't there?

BTW, Koshinage isn't in my school's official grading syllabus. So we don't specifically learn how to breakfall from them. I guess that is purely Judo technique. However, in a jiyu waza session, some Judo trained fellows wishes to throw in a bit of koshinage to spice things up.. it is fine with sensei, but SAFETY is the key consideration.

Quote:
I agree with just about everything you said. BTW, the shihonage breakfall is one that still scares the hell out of me to this day. I would rather be thrown with a huge Judo throw with Nage landing on top of me than do that. If Nage hesitates at all with that throw it is very easy to land right on your neck.
See... there are bound to be a certain ukemi that you are also not so good at taking. So, do see it from the point of other people. To them Koshinage throw is as scary as Shihonage throw to you. Hah, now that I know your weakness... you bet I will throw you with shihonage every time I get the opportunity if we ever meet up in a competition environment .

Koshi Nage or not... what do I know or care... I am only just an Atemi Kind of Guy .

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 05-28-2005, 10:11 AM   #75
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
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Re: Aikido Works

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
..... the shihonage breakfall is one that still scares the hell out of me to this day .... If Nage hesitates at all with that throw it is very easy to land right on your neck.
Having been on the business end of a lot of shiho nages, I don't see that as a hazzard. You do have to worry about your arm unwinding and having all these muscles in your arm, shoulder, and side being pulled, strained, or ripped. But landing on your neck? Don't see it m'self.

Matter of fact, the breakfall for that isn't really a breakfall; it's called a "rear sitfall." A Judo player capable of taking a hip throw should have no problem with that. Maybe all Judo people 4th kyu and up should be required to know shiho nage. It's inexcusable if they don't because for them it's too damn easy.
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