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Old 05-03-2005, 05:15 AM   #1
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 561
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Instructing from video media

Hi all,

Have any of you guys watch aikido (techniques) from VHS/VCD/DVD by prominent shihans and then either try out the techniques with students or proceed to teach the students after thinking that you have figured out the techniques? This includes the fact that you have no prior instructions on the mat with the shihans in question or their direct students.

I find that a lot of independent instructors (not affiliated with any organization/group) do this. From years of experience I do enjoy learning these various variations of techniques at their dojo but I find that the newbies have problems figuring out which are the fundamental basic techniques to begin with. In fact, even older ones (some being instructors themselves) have confided to me that they don't really know the kihon from the henka and at gradings, they just do what they are comfortable with. I find within the confine of the same dojo the techniques are workable amongst the students but outside (or at other dojo) they would have problem as most time they mimic the techniques rather learn the techniques. Do you agree?

Regards

David Y
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Old 05-03-2005, 10:11 AM   #2
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
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Re: Instructing from video media

"Stealing" techniques from seminars and videos is possible if you have good basics yourself. However, feeling the technique is also valuable input as are correctiions. You might get the spirit of the move but not necessarily all aspects.
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Old 05-03-2005, 10:24 AM   #3
SeiserL
 
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Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
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Re: Instructing from video media

IMHO, I really enjoy and learn a lot from watching seminars and instructions from different Sensei and styles I have yet to experience. But, it is never a substitute for live training, instruction, and correction from a competent Sensei.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-03-2005, 12:14 PM   #4
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
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Re: Instructing from video media

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
"Stealing" techniques from seminars and videos is possible if you have good basics yourself. However, feeling the technique is also valuable input as are correctiions.
Yes. This is pretty much my thoughts, too.

I have on several occasions taken things from video to try in the dojo, often unsuccessfully. I pestered poor Kondo Sensei at the first Expo to take his UKEMI just so I could experience the techniques I'd been doing very poorly (after class with willing partners) from his video.

Unlike many purists, I find videos to be quite valuable.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 05-03-2005, 12:51 PM   #5
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
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Re: Instructing from video media

I too find them valuable. When you are located out in the boonies and don't have the regular opportunity to train at seminars it is sometimes the only way you can get new ideas.
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Old 05-03-2005, 10:43 PM   #6
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: Instructing from video media

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
I too find them valuable. When you are located out in the boonies and don't have the regular opportunity to train at seminars it is sometimes the only way you can get new ideas.
Speaking of boonies, how far is Midland from Lubbock?

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 05-04-2005, 01:57 AM   #7
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Re: Instructing from video media

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
"Stealing" techniques from seminars and videos is possible if you have good basics yourself. However, feeling the technique is also valuable input as are correctiions. You might get the spirit of the move but not necessarily all aspects.
Quote:
SeiserL wrote:
IMHO, I really enjoy and learn a lot from watching seminars and instructions from different Sensei and styles I have yet to experience. But, it is never a substitute for live training, instruction, and correction from a competent Sensei.
John & Lynn,

I absolutely agree with you guys. There is no substitute for live training. Generally, I learn more being the uke than the nage by feeling the technique. The mystical part of a perfect technique is how you ended up being pinned or thrown when you are expecting it but can't feel it happening. This cannot be taught from video.

I know of a senior instructor who is absolutely awed by a prominent shihan residing in the States. He has not trained on the mat with the shihan but he has a full set of his video training instructions. The fallout rate of students (beginners & senior) in his class is a record to injuries or fear of injuries from taking ukemi or corrections from him. Without actually taking live instructions and corrections from the shihan concerned, I cannot say whether the techniques done by the instructor are of the same intent and purpose of that shihan.

Regards

David Y
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:47 AM   #8
takusan
Dojo: Canterbury Aikido Club
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
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Re: Instructing from video media

A quote from another thread comes to mind.

Its like being given a piano, and then thinking you are a pianist.

Videos - love them & hate them.

I'm as guilty as any other with videos.
In fact I'm after one right at the moment, of the late Nishio sensei.

But - image trying to talk a person through -say - shiho nage,
from yokomen uchi -
using a sword -
in the dark -
and its raining -
and etc etc.

It gets hard at some point.
And if you can't even feel whats happening, well - its nigh on impossible.
With the fundamentals under your belt, maybe 1st kyu to san dan,
maybe us lesser mortals could do a half way passable imitation. Still an imitation, but you've got to start somewhere, if you aren't privileged enough to get it (instruction) in person.

Wise - probably not.
I'm going to carry on doing it anyway. As no one can accuse me of being wise.
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:15 AM   #9
David Yap
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Re: Instructing from video media

Quote:
David Hood wrote:
<snip>...
But - image trying to talk a person through -say - shiho nage,
from yokomen uchi -
using a sword -
in the dark -
and its raining -
and etc etc. ...<snip>
Dave H,

Sounds like you've reading Tales of the Otori, trilogy

David Y
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:18 AM   #10
takusan
Dojo: Canterbury Aikido Club
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
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Tongue Re: Instructing from video media

I'd be happy being able to read.

Tried to teach a friend to drive once. Ever done that?
Now thats an experience.

Aikido seems to be way easier.
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:37 AM   #11
David Yap
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Re: Instructing from video media

Quote:
David Hood wrote:
I'd be happy being able to read.

Tried to teach a friend to drive once. Ever done that?
Now thats an experience.

Aikido seems to be way easier.
You think so!

There is a blog in Aikido Journal "Hidden dangers in Aikido" you will be just as happy to read
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Old 05-05-2005, 07:02 AM   #12
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
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Re: Instructing from video media

A matter of level, and the way it's done. As someone wrote here, "Stealing techniques" is a well recognized & ancient way of learning in Japanese Budo. But, to truly steal the technique, one has to pass several criteria:
Enough Video footage to see it well
Personal high enough level
Invest the time to learn the technique
Test the technique

Only after one has fulfilled all of the above, can he consider himself has having stolen the technique.

And obviously, one should only teach techniques he knows in depth, regardless of their source.

Amir
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Old 05-05-2005, 12:25 PM   #13
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Re: Instructing from video media

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote:
snip..
And obviously, one should only teach techniques he knows in depth, regardless of their source.

Amir
Amir,

Obviously if one injured a lot of students by attempting to the teach the techniques could only mean he does not know the techniques in depth; OR

Those were the actual intent and purpose of the shihan's instructions but the person not having taken live instructions from the shihan or his direct students might not be able to train his own students to take the proper ukemi to avoid the injuries (blend with his techniques so to speak). Hence, the high rate of injury to the students.

Lacking an in-depth knowledge he resolves to instruct the uke to plant his foot here or there to make the technique work. To boost his ego and to avoid injury, the uke may resolve to giving charity throws and charity locks when taking ukemi for him - which is dishonest and unmeaningful. Hence, skipping the class (though already paid in advance) makes more sense (this explains the dropout rate of the senior).

Another question that comes to mind is, "Why teach something that one has not figured out yet?" Though the students have signed an indemnity clause, it does not mean that the students have volunteered to be guinea pigs. One might as well use a bokken on a student to see which part of his body hurts the most.

David Y
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Old 05-05-2005, 12:46 PM   #14
kironin
 
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Re: Instructing from video media

I will pull off stuff from videos but
a) I never would teach it to beginners
b) I make it very clear to senior students where it is coming from and that it is a work in progress, an interesting approach, something to consider critically.
c) I find it takes a lot more time because you have to play it over many times to make sure you are seeing everything there is to see, mime it over and over, test it out with skeptical ukes, see if it is consistent with basic principles, etc. so it has to be something really worth the effort and time taken away from the core syllabus.

I have a few things on the burner right now probably for the past few months, I am slow and reluctant to introduce anything till I have had time to digest it and play with it.

now if something flows naturally from something in our core syllabus it might peak out after a while in a beginner class in response to a question or when I make some realization of a connection.

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