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Old 05-17-2005, 11:51 AM   #51
Ron Tisdale
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Re: covering your openings

From the clip Charles provided on the first page:
http://www.myaa.info/media/Parker_Embu_Shihonage.wmv

you can see an example of shihonage done with the arm locked at wrist, elbow and shoulder, and the lock is released a bit to bend the arm before the throw to a pin. There is also what is called shihonage kuzushi, which is similar, but the arm is straight throughout the technique, and there is no pin. The last shiho in the clip was almost like that, but not quite.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...ight=shihonage is a link to the thread that discusses Ellis's counter to a straight arm lock for shiho.

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-17-2005, 01:06 PM   #52
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Re: covering your openings

Is this what you are referring to for kuzushi http://myaa.info/media/Parker_shihan...eshi_cross.wmv ?

Thank you for the link...now get back to work!!!

Cheers!

Charles Burmeister
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Old 05-17-2005, 01:12 PM   #53
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Re: covering your openings

Hi All,

With the ease at which it is now possible to put things on video and then to post such video on the web, I've always wanted to see more accompanying video with discussions such as these. No matter where we come down on things, I think we can all learn a great deal by taking advantage of this medium in this way. Toward that end, and in the hopes of encouraging others (for example, it would be great to see a video from Rob wherein he can demonstrate the problematic he's using to further refine and/or reflect over Shiho-nage - hint hint), I am going to try and put some kind of accompanying video together. I hope to have it done in a day or two (or three) - I'll post it then. If anyone else can do such a thing - please join me in this action. Again, I think it would prove to be very rewarding - the more folks that can use these forums in this way, the better (my opinion).

thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-17-2005, 02:05 PM   #54
rob_liberti
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Re: covering your openings

Excellent suggestion! Maybe we can eventually take this whole idea further and actually make it a thing where someone posts a problem like this, and then others post footage of their answers with some explanations. We could probably end up making our own aikiweb instructional video!

At this point, I have a digitial video camera, but I am in short supply of a sempai willingto let me try to bash them in the face of cross laterally kick them in the stomach in an attempt to shut their technique down - that usually takes a seminar! However, I'll be with a good dohia this weekend. I can at least ask him do the punch and/or kick, and I'll try to work it out. I'll try to take video of it and then you can tell me where to send it for your viewing pleasure!

Rob
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Old 05-17-2005, 02:30 PM   #55
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Re: covering your openings

Hi Rob,

If you don't have a place to upload it - sure - i can put it up and link it through our dojo web site. No problem.

Yeah man! That's the spirit - I really think we can take this forum to a whole other level by applying these technologies.

thanks,
david

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Old 05-17-2005, 02:46 PM   #56
Ron Tisdale
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Re: covering your openings

I wish I was closer Rob...I'd let you kick me in the stomach (not so sure about the face thingy though!)

Thanks guys for doing this. And thanks to Charles for the clips so far...

Ron

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Old 05-17-2005, 04:30 PM   #57
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Re: covering your openings

I'd say thank you but the person that really needs to be thanked is Parker Shihan. I provide these clippings freely only because he allows me too!

He has never been one to hold back because of what the video (technique) may look like to others. A favorite quote of mine that he uses all the time from Kiyoyuki Terada Hanshi (his instructor) is: [when it comes to the application of Aikido techniques] It doesn't always have to be pretty...but it MUST be effective.

He has taught me much and probably the biggest lesson he has given me is it isn't mine to keep.

Now back on thread...
Quote:
...The problem that I have is that in my experience, this pretty much requires the straight arm shihonage, which seems to be a no-no in much of modern aikido, and which has its own set of problems. Experienced people often simply don't allow their elbows to be easily straightened, and Ellis Amdur has shown a simple way to immediately break that lock if it is achieved (described in a recent thread)...
Quote:
And for those that are NOT advocates of the "straight arm" shihonage...

What do you suggest as an alternative if you are either "late" in getting proper position on uke to apply "folded arm" shihonage or uke is too strong for you to be able to fold the arm and the "straight arm" would be the logical next step?
Regards,

Charles Burmeister
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Old 05-22-2005, 01:11 PM   #58
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Re: covering your openings

Just checking in to apologize for my delay (taking longer that I originally thought) and also to say that I am still working on the clips and hope to have them linked here within the week at the latest.

Thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-22-2005, 05:18 PM   #59
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Re: covering your openings

Talking about shiho-nage in terms of self-defence is not the most useful of conversations for most people - it took me years to get the hang of it and sometimes I still wonder. However, as tori is so low compared to uke in hanmi-handachi , shiho-nage is altogether possible. If you want to do shiho-nage on someone, maybe you should sit down first!

But what I really want to say is that no mattter what kind of shiho-nage you do (standing, half-standing, kneeling, bent arm, straight arm ...), it needs to be based on udekime-nage (mae-otoshi to Tomiki folks) to be truly effective. Do lots of udekime-nage and then try shiho-nage and make sure what you are doing carries over, i.e. you are not doing separate techniques but closely related ones. It is my strong belief that what you do in one technique should help in another, indeed, all the others.

Other than that, there are other uses of shiho-nage in Aikido training that are un-realted to the immediate self-defence application that everyone thinks of.

PS Videos are a good idea - I have lots but am not sure what to do with them. Many are rather large files.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 05-22-2005 at 05:21 PM.

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Old 05-22-2005, 07:20 PM   #60
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Re: covering your openings

Hi Rupert,

Same thing - if you got some video that you think would be conducive to any discussion on what is checking the cross-lateral side during Katate-dori Shiho-nage Omote (especially in Hanmi-Handachi), send it to me and I'll post it on our dojo web site for at least the time that we are all having this discussion.

senshincenter@impulse.net

Thanks,
david

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:36 AM   #61
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Re: covering your openings

If anyone is interested there is some relevant discussion of atemi and timing thereof in the May article at:

http://www.aikiweb.com/columns/gledyard/2005_05.html

It touches onb the action / reaction gap which effects how we use atemi waza.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 05-23-2005, 08:43 AM   #62
rob_liberti
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Re: covering your openings

I'm still working on the video. The training this weekend was very intense and the schedule was very tight, so I didn't really get the opportunity I wanted. I have a plan "b" though.

Hi George sensei,
I loved your article. I really appreciate your taking the time to write these things down. Maybe when I see you next weekend, if there is time, I can get your opionion on my hamni handachi shihonage/'atemi coverage problem.

I tried it a few more times, and it seems like the main problem is that I (as uke) just can get way too close while I make the iniital grab. I don't have to be at arm's length away because the nage is in poor attack/counter attack position relative to me. If I were allowed to grab the person's hand in their lap, I know I could clobber them with the other hand before they can defend it. If they reach out and bring me in (which is what I've been working on to try to solve the distance problem) it seems liek there is a chance, but they have to bring me in quickly enough to get my arm straightened (which is not a given) before I clobber them. If they cheat and rise up a bit to get mroe time, that cross lateral kick is waiting. I don't know. I don't mean to harp on the example. I think your article describes the larger picture of what I think I'm exploring in my example. I just don't have much more insight into how to approach the answer.

Rob
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:09 AM   #63
Ron Tisdale
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Re: covering your openings

Quote:
Katate-dori Shiho-nage Omote (especially in Hanmi-Handachi)
This was one of the techs. on a dojo mates dan exam this past sunday. Funny how these things pop up

Ron

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Old 05-23-2005, 09:13 PM   #64
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Re: covering your openings

Here is me doing Hanmi-handachi shiho-nage in the year 2000.

http://www.cuk.ac.kr/~rupert/movies/Movs014.asf
It is from this page wchich also has some other stuff:
http://www.cuk.ac.kr/~rupert/movies/aikimovies.html
(This stuff is on a server where I used to work and they have not deleted it yet)

Hanmi-handachi shiho-nage
I made this clip in 2000 - so obviusly not with the present discussion in mind but if you watch carefully, when I begin the irimi version I contact uke's body and turn it slightly so that his striking hand cannot reach me. I also raise my 'spare' hand momentarily in case uke does attack. If I had been a little more early and positive that could have been a strike. I cross his centre. Also, the way I do shiho-nage puts quite a lot of force into uke's arm - unless he goes in the one direction I leave open to him, at which point uke perceives little force at all. For the finish, as you can see, I bring uke to me - I do not follow him to where he wants to fall.

In the tenkan version much of the same applies but I do not cross the centre - I meet it and try to stay with it. In this particular version I first enter to the tenkan-ho point,then extend uke's arm out - much like tenkan-ho - leading with my whole body, then turn once he is stretched out to the maximum. When stretching him out, if you look carefully, his body turns slightly such that his free striking arm moves away from me. I think about that when I do the technique. Also, once I start the technique and gain control of uke's wrist, I do not think he is in a comfortable position to deliver a kick.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 05-23-2005 at 09:27 PM.

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Old 05-24-2005, 11:58 AM   #65
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Re: covering your openings

FYI: Moriteru Ueshiba (Aikikai Hombu) has an example of this technique on Tape Four of the "Aikido" series.

In this version of the technique, I think one will see what most have experienced in one form or the other. Specifically, I am noting the attempt to crosscheck Uke's cross-lateral arm by positing (through various means) the homo-lateral side of Uke's body (at the arm) in an obstructing position. To be sure, various locks and/or torques are used to keep the homo-lateral side in this obstructing position (and, of course, we should mention that in many cases there are no locks and/or torques to keep the homo-lateral side in an obstructing position), however, it is from within this type of architecture that questions like Rob's arise. That is to say, we have seen all this before and yet these questions remain legitimate avenues for investigation and/or concern.

Why is that? I would suggest that a key ingredient is missing -- it is that ingredient that is most responsible for allowing Rob (or anyone) the capacity to nevertheless nullify the obstructing homo-lateral side in order to bring the cross-lateral weapons on target. What is missing is that there is no force acting on the cross-lateral side itself such that it is effectively being positioned on the far side of the homo-lateral side. In order to maintain this crosscheck, and/or in order to have this crosscheck operate at the apex of its performance, two types of lateral energy are required. First, there is the energy used to move the homo-lateral side in front of the cross-lateral side, and second, there is the energy used to keep the cross-lateral side behind the homo-lateral side. It is because this second energy is often missing, and/or merely assumed to be present in the first energy, that Uke is able to come around (particularly with circular strikes) the effected homo-lateral side and bring his/her cross-lateral weapons on target.

Note: I do not believe that a reliance upon pain compliance (i.e. locks and torques) and/or upon an expectation that posits Uke as being in possession of a mind that is easily captured (i.e. atemi) are good substitutes for this missing second energy. Such tactics are much more likely to succeed when they are less needed. Meaning, they are at their best when they are connected to this second energy and not attempting to substitute themselves for it.

Most of us will say the same thing regarding how the cross-lateral side of Uke's body is being addressed in this technique. However, because of our training cultures, most of us will assume that the second energy is merely present in the first energy. The problem raised by Rob, however, clearly shows that it is not. In Aikido training culture, due to reasons of safety and/or in order to address learning curves, we often come to unknowingly move our bodies in quite unnatural ways. It is one such unnatural way that is disguising the lack of the second energy needed to keep Uke's cross-lateral side behind his/her homo-lateral side. I mentioned Moriteru's version of this technique because I feel it is a good representation of how our training culture can work to make things that are unnatural appear to be natural (and thus correct).

The unnatural movement that I am specifically referring to in this case is our tendency to act and/or react as a top -- as an object with a single/central vertical axis of rotation. It is because we act thusly that our cross-lateral side is "influenced" every time our homo-lateral side is being manipulated. What Rob is taking advantage of is the body's true natural structure -- having no single and/or central vertical axis of rotation. In Moriteru's version, he simply thrusts the homo-lateral arm forward, in front of uke. As a result, Uke, now acting like a top, moves his cross-lateral arm into a symmetrical position on the other side of the same orbit. Uke appears to be checked, but this is really just a cultural check and not really a physical check. In truth, the body has many points of articulation and so it has many opportunities to address the thrusting of the homo-lateral arm forward in such a way that the cross-lateral arm will not be placed in a symmetrical orbit on the other side of the body. This is precisely what one achieves whenever one is able to strike with the cross-lateral weapons and/or reinforce the affected arm and/or counter the grab/lock being employed by Nage.

It is not that the tactic of establishing such a symmetrical orbit is flawed or inferior to anything else, it is that one's attempts to achieve it are often more grounded in a training culture than in a physical existence. What would happen in a physical reality should Uke's arm merely be thrust forward is that the shoulder hinge would absorb much of the energy. For an Uke that wished to strike with his/her cross-lateral weapons, the ribs' capability to bend and the capacity for the torso to twist, would provide all the necessary outlets to not have the thrusting energy affect the cross-lateral side of the body symmetrically. When one adds the capacity to move the body into several adjacent planes, such thrusting energy can easily lose all the necessary resistance needed to have any effect on Uke's body.

In my opinion, it is this second energy that is missing -- that is key: The energy that keeps Uke's cross-lateral side behind his/her homo-lateral side. The notion of using an orbiting affect is sound, only how one attempts to achieve this cannot rely upon a training culture tendency. In my opinion, as a clue, we can see a training culture tendency at work whenever we are able to note the following:

a. Uke's weight is not upon a single pivot point (i.e. the front foot). We should not see Uke on two feet, or on one foot and one set of toes, and/or on two sets of toes. In order to have a true orbiting affect working, a single vertical axis of rotation must be established at the front foot and for that to occur Uke's center of gravity must be on the Nage-side of the front foot.

b. The te-sabaki must achieve two things: It must lend itself to establishing Uke's weight upon a single vertical axis of rotation at the front foot, and it must address the capacity for the shoulder joint to absorb energy. In order to do these things, in the first case, we must see some sort of "absorption" or Yin aspect to Nage's handwork, such that Uke's weight can completely shifted forward onto the front foot. In the second case, we must see some sort of lock that will affect the relative angles of the ball and socket joint at the shoulder. I would say, without these relative angles being properly addressed no orbit can be initiated.

c. Because weight is being shifted forward onto Uke's front foot and because this establishes a single vertical axis of rotation at Uke's front foot, Uke should never be standing still in the same vertical plan and/or turning in the same vertical plane. Thus, we should not see any of the following if a true physical orbit is established: 1. We should not see Nage moving forward relative to Uke; 2. We should not see Nage moving across Uke; and 3. We should not see Nage traveling around Uke.

Will post videos soon -- hopefully tonight.

dmv

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Old 05-24-2005, 10:54 PM   #66
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Re: covering your openings

I tried to go ahead and cancel a few birds with one stone. I've been thinking about having some sort of technical video page on our web site where issues like this one are addressed for the benefit of further research, etc. This gave me an opportunity to play with some things that I have yet to use, etc. (e.g. voice over), but have been wanting to play with. Ultimately I want to have something very much like what I ended up doing here only the final presentation will be a lot more streamlined and thus better presented. So please grant me some leeway concerning some of the things I've tried to do with these videos. I've tried to experiment with some things. Hopefully, one day, these kind of videos will be posted in a much more user-friendly manner and with things like graphics, etc. For now, this is what I got - apologies.

As I see it, one can look at what I've written in this thread so as to accompany what one is seeing and hearing in the videos. In short, I think there are three primary ways in which the cross-lateral side of Uke's body is addressed in Hanmi-handachi Shiho-nage. They are: Angle of Cancellation (checking the homo-lateral arm and leg and establishing an orbit that symmetrically places the cross-lateral side behind the homo-lateral side); Angle of Deviation (by which Nage moves out of the way of anything that might not be checked); and Angle of Deflection (by which Nage is capable of addressing anything that was not checked and/or that he/she could not get out of the way of).

After this, one may still be struck but one will have greatly put the odds against Uke coming out on top.

You can see the videos here:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...xperiment.html

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-24-2005, 11:15 PM   #67
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Re: covering your openings

The video link I posted above may soon disappear. The following one links to those old vids but is more permanent.

http://aikido-in-korea.com/

... and click on My Aikido Movies.

It links to my angelfire site, which I cannot view in Korea as the govt. has blocked angelfire.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 05-24-2005 at 11:19 PM.

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Old 05-24-2005, 11:19 PM   #68
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Re: covering your openings

A bit off-topic, but pertinent to the videos portion of this thread, Google is offering a beta program for uploading videos onto their servers:

https://upload.video.google.com/

Might be good for those without tons of bandwidth available...

-- Jun

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Old 05-24-2005, 11:28 PM   #69
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Re: covering your openings

David,

Nice videos - very well thought out and laid out.

Rupert

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Old 05-25-2005, 12:11 AM   #70
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Re: covering your openings

David...well done. Thanks.

--Michael

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Old 05-25-2005, 12:58 AM   #71
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Re: covering your openings

David,

Nicely laid out. Looks like it covered all the points. Nice production with the voice over! You're right...looks like this could open up a whole new way to ask and answer a question.

Charles Burmeister
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Old 05-25-2005, 08:10 PM   #72
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Re: covering your openings

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
A bit off-topic, but pertinent to the videos portion of this thread, Google is offering a beta program for uploading videos onto their servers:

https://upload.video.google.com/

Might be good for those without tons of bandwidth available...

-- Jun
I tried it. I uploaded 400MB of stuff. Now, I have to wait while they 'verify' it - I think they are in the midst of creating their system so I don't know what to expect. I think they expect to get comminsion from people who charge viewing fees - I opted for no fee so guess I'll be a low priority for them.

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