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Old 05-13-2005, 07:48 AM   #26
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: covering your openings

Quote:
Example I was once uke for a Shihan who "cocked up" his technique and left a huge opening. Reflexly he simply knocked me to the floor.

Was it Aikido or not?
good question...I'd say it probably depends on the intent and the situation. On one hand, you could say he was ticked that he left the opening and took it out on you. On the other hand, you could say that he felt the opening and responded in the only way possible to maintain martial integrity. Who knows? Probably you as uke had the best vantage point (looking up at the stars)

Thanks Charles, the footage of Parker Shihan really illustrates that initial movement into uke's center. I didn't get to take ukemi from him when he was here in philly, but I have friends who uke for him on a regular basis...WOW. Gotta get me some of that...

Hi Michael, thanks for the description. I didn't think I could do a good job on it since I can't do suwari waza much anymore due to my knees. I did notice that you didn't seem to specify the initial entry that you see in Parker Shihan's film. Do you do that in your dojo? I know there are differencs even in the yoshinkan... Everything else you described is exactly how I remember it.

Quote:
Kicking in clinchrange with roundhouse should mean an instant takedown... wristcontrol is not enough to prevent that. Shows how much Aikido has fallen behind in actual "martial" part... Reality check needed,
I can't see how the uke in the clip provided could possibly launch an effective kick while attacking that way.. Or why shite should abandon a perfectly safe and controling position to compromise themselves with body to body contact where a struggle might ensue. The historical context for the technique is that someone is trying to stop you from deploying a weapon. That someone could also be armed. No way I'm giving up shiho in that context to wrestle around on the ground with someone. And I used to wrestle in college.

Calling shiho as described in that video a wrist control pretty much highlights the fact you haven't felt this level of technique. It IS NOT a 'wrist control'. Actually, you can see in the video that the elbow and shoulder, and by extention, the body are all locked.

FWIW

Ron (reality indeed)

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 05-13-2005 at 07:51 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-13-2005, 08:19 AM   #27
rob_liberti
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Re: covering your openings

These are my favorite type of questions to ask sempai. I don't think there is a terribly easy answer. But I love the comments.

I have labored under the opinion that the basic waza with official names like "hamni handachi katatetori shihonage" are typically thought out enough to prevent such other attacks from the uke. My supposition is that even if I failed to think them through enough, the answer is normally there. I have noticed that the ones that don't have a lot of answers to "what if..." questions are typically called "kokyunage" because the set up is so fundimental that if you get to "what if" with those ones there is not a lot of "plan b" options.

About Takeda sensei or Ikeda sensei for that matter. Guys, I COMPLETELY understand that if I would just get to having excellent shinhan ability then I'd have no problems with this basic waza! I think the process towards getting there might be trying to figure some of these ideas out for my level. If my evil twin were uke, and I try to suck him in like Takeda sensei, I'm probably going to get clobbed in the face.

Jorgen, I agree that roundhouse in the clinch range would probably result in a take down when both parties are standing. When you are on your knees, I also agree that the kicking range relative to the reaction range is a bit greater - which I'm sure is why there is a suggesiton to irimi. The problem with the irimi is that I'm trying to atemi your head and I'm holding down the arm that would normally block such an attack given the intial angle of attack. But this comment "Shows how much Aikido has fallen behind in actual 'martial' part... Reality check needed," was uncalled for as I'm specifically trying to put martial reality check into this drill for my own sake.

Philip, I'm certainly not saying that in a "real" fight I would not get hit. I don't think I read anyone else saying that either.

Thanks for all of your input! - Rob
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Old 05-13-2005, 09:42 AM   #28
Ron Tisdale
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Re: covering your openings

Thank you for the question...it was an excellent exercise.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 05-13-2005, 10:17 AM   #29
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Re: covering your openings

Yes, I would agree, one has to be a bit careful here since we are dealing, in a way, with a two-man form, and not a self-defense scenario (in my opinion). Still, accepting the question as an architectural problem is a worthy endeavor. Here is the problem as I see it: How to you architecturally address the cross-lateral and/or homo-lateral leg when it is employing a curvilinear Line of Attack (adopting its own Line of Attack crosswise to the (uke's) body's Line of Attack)?

While "How do you get Shiho-Nage to work in a fight?" may not be that viable of a question, this former question is extremely important, and from what I have seen often completely overlooked in much of Aikido practice. Many people cross this potential secondary Line of Attack all of the time in their Kihon Waza and in their Jiyu Waza. In our own spontaneous training, this is a very common place for my own students to be struck -- and struck hard. In my experience, for most, Aikido tactical architecture often seems to be stuck along a two dimensional perspective - using things like the "X" or "Y" axis only to establish its various Angles of Deviation. To be sure, such a perspective will cover many tactical "what ifs," but more "what ifs" can be addressed if we also come to understand our Angles of Deviation along a three-dimensional and/or a more dynamic perspective. In particular, one should also try to see how Angles of Deviation could occur along a temporal and/or energetic aspect.

For me, in regards to Hanmi-Handachi Katate-dori Shiho-nage Omote, it is not that I do not cross in front of Uke's body. I do -- but only if you look at things photographically. Dynamically, while I may move in front of Uke's initial Path of Action, I do cross Uke's Line of Attack. This version of Shiho-nage generates an Angle of Deviation not along the "X" or "Y" axes, but rather it is made up of two concentric spirals -- of different size and of different direction. Nage's spiral is tightening (moving inward and forward) and through its movement comes to be more and more inside of Uke's spiral, which is widening, moving outward, and backwards. Uke's front leg is the axis of rotation for Uke's spiral. As a result, that leg, the homo-lateral leg, cannot kick because as the axis of rotation it is the weight-supporting limb. As the weight-supporting limb, it ceases to establish a Line of Attack independent of the body's initial Path of Action. In this way, it can be contained along the ever-widening Angle of Cancellation that Nage is attempting to establish. However, it is important for Nage to stay within this Angle of Cancellation. Nage should not enter beyond it -- which is common mistake worth mentioning here. If I may, one must think of this as opening an umbrella in the rain. You have to stay under the umbrella as you keep the umbrella over your head. It does not do any good to open up the umbrella and then step out from under it and/or move it out from over you.

The cross-lateral leg of Uke, not being the weight-supporting limb of an outward turning spiral has an Angle of Cancellation placed upon it in two primary ways: First, it is being effected by the body's symmetry, and secondly it is being influenced and/or determined by the energy of the spiral. This means that the homo-lateral side of Uke's body is obstructing the cross-lateral side of Uke's body from establishing a Line of Attack. As long as Nage stays within the initial Angle of Cancellation he/she generated on the homo-lateral leg, Uke will have to go around his/her own body in order to bring weapons on target. This is one reason, if I am understanding the initial post correctly, the roundhouse kick proved to be more effective as a "what if" -- since it is a weapon partially designed to go around the opposite side of one's own body. However, forcing Uke to adopt such tactics is part of the defensive redundancy built into a technique like Shiho-nage. Inspiring Uke to adopt "circular" strikes in order to bring weapons to target means the Nage maintains his/her Center Line. With the Center Line being freely dominated by Nage, Nage is actually in a position to both attack and defend simultaneously.

If you will please step out of the "form" for a minute and take a look at Nage's body movement, you will see that Nage is geared toward accepting or being braced for "circular" strikes -- should any make it through the various Angles of Cancellation that are trying to be employed against such things. Please note that Nage's arms, head, front knee, etc., resemble someone that is covering up and moving forward into the eye of a storm -- which is precisely one way you would want to address "circular" strikes. Hence, it is not really to the advantage of Uke to adopt such strikes. As one person already said, such things open to door for all kinds of takedowns, etc.

However, while Nage is using such "crude" defensive tactics (i.e. covering up, entering, and bracing along the dominated Center Line), the outward/backward turning spiral being engaged upon Uke's body makes sure that energy is traveling away from the direction that these strikes might engage from. This greatly reduces the power on such strikes since they will have to compete against the contrary energy of the outward turning spiral. In order to make use of this Angle of Cancellation along the cross-lateral side of Uke's body, Nage has to make sure that his/her timing is correct in relation to the energy of the outward turning spiral. You cannot enter too soon and you cannot enter too late. As in the first case, using the umbrella again: You do not want to go out in the rain before you open the umbrella up/you do not want to stay in the rain after you close the umbrella.

Several folks that have posted seem to be saying this and/or something very similar to this. However, I would like to make one more point: For any of this to happen, I do not believe that one can have his/her hand as Nage on their knee when it is grabbed. At this point, the maai is too close for the Angles of Cancellation I mentioned to occur. One is left only with the "covering up" -- which now is redundant with only one other element: the check caused by the symmetry of Uke's body. Let us say that the distance at which Uke can grab Nage's wrist at their knee is "X." When distance "X" is reached in the version I have attempted to describe above, Nage and Uke should not be at the beginning of their movement but either at the apex and/or on the completing side of the curvature of their corresponding spirals. If you reach "X" when you are still at the beginning of your movement as Nage, I think you will indeed find what Rob said he found when he first addressed the issue.

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-13-2005, 06:41 PM   #30
maikerus
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Re: covering your openings

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Michael, thanks for the description. I didn't think I could do a good job on it since I can't do suwari waza much anymore due to my knees. I did notice that you didn't seem to specify the initial entry that you see in Parker Shihan's film. Do you do that in your dojo? I know there are differencs even in the yoshinkan... Everything else you described is exactly how I remember it.
Hi Ron,

Sorry for the confusion. It was a fast post and maybe not as clear as I would have wanted it to be. We definately do do the initial entry as shown in the clip (this is the 2nd technique that he did).

Here's where I was trying to say it. The first line (badly) says this because I was focusing on the way to push using the top of the foot as your pushing point and didn't specify that you would actually be moving. I also forgot to say that your outside knee would also be involved in the push <wry grin>. The "with uke's pull" part is what other people have been saying about moving before the attack grab is complete so that shite is in motion:

---From Previous Post---

2. Push off the top of the outside foot (which is touching the mat in seiza) about 2/3 of the way into uke's stance. The arms should move in kamae with uke's pull into a circle into uke and then out into your center, lightly hooking the outside hand baby finger onto uke's grabbing wrist. It's important not to lose contact with uke's hand at this point and the gripped arm should push into the V of uke's grip so they can't let go.

---End Previous Post---

A couple of things after seeing the video clip.

1. I think that the uke was being a little too "uke-ish" and backed up on his attack and this is why Parker Shihan didn't go in as much as I would have expected.

2. Chida Shihan advocates leaning back much farther than Parker Shihan did in the clip. This is just FYI...obviously Parker Shihan doesn't need to, but if anyone is having trouble with this technique this point may help them.

It was a good clip...thanks Charles for posting it.

cheers,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 05-13-2005, 11:17 PM   #31
takusan
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Re: covering your openings

Whew,
some of the descriptions of the techniques are probably more difficult to assimilate than the problem they are trying to cover.
My penny's worth will be the same - sorry.

For me David Valadez and Charles Burmeister have pretty much covered the pertinent points.

Firstly though, I have found it interesting to hear of the style of the attack at initiation.
Am I correct in that you (as uke) required to grasp tori's wrist - from their knee??
Heard of it being done that way, but not actually seen it. Not from hanmi hantachi at least. Well there you go then.

Any how - as David and Charles commented, uke should not be in a position to launch any secondary attack - period.
If they are, then tori's initial response has been - how do you say this politely - mmm, *****.

If you aren't initiating, at the point of contact, a movement that takes uke's center (balance) then you have pretty much failed, and anything that follows will be marginal to zilch, as far as effectiveness.

(NB, like quite a few of you, this is one of my most favoured techniques / movement exercises, so teach this alot - but on occasion, still fails - it is not a technique that you should ever get too cocky with - but - in another couple of decades------- )

As was alluded to in one post, there is more than one angle to defend with. This alone should exclude uke from any form of kick and therefore, if they are unable to kick, there's bugger all chance that they can punch / strike.

(What happens though, is that uke launches a simultaneous attack, that will see you (tori) in a real predicament. This annoys me no end, as this is a cheating attack, as tori is of the understanding that it (the attack) is of a standard / formal nature. These attacks should ONLY ever be done after the terms of engagement are negotiated before the attack. We do this occasionally to create a more 'combative reality', BUT tori is able to respond with a wider range of defenses. Real fun, but can be dangerous - for the senior ranks usually)

Not sure how / where you (tori) are putting your hand relative to uke's grip, as this can have a fundamental effect upon uke - and makes for a huge difference in effectiveness.
I use this variation to describe / explain the difference from going from kihon waza to randori type techniques (specifically, when we are talking ki no nagare).
Things can and do change between the two levels.
This change comes from appreciating the MULTIPLE variations of attack, therefore requiring a movement that can work with these comprehensive variations of attacks (or initiation).
Honestly, I do what feels correct at the time, allowing for uke's variant attacks.

That said, this set up is not kihon waza therefore, within our club, we place the hand on top of ukes gripping hand and essentially now use his arm as a sword, cutting their legs from under them, plus, and I feel this is important, we don't always execute a full omote movement, rather, TOTALLY dependent upon uke's commitment to their attack, either a movement at approx 90° to the attack OR we do ura.
When doing omote from hanmi hantachi, while safe if executed properly, allows for too much potential counter or simple error, thus placing tori in a compromised position. We teach and practice it, as kihon waza, but personally, I only ever execute it with the above mentioned directions.
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Old 05-14-2005, 12:03 AM   #32
maikerus
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Re: covering your openings

Quote:
David Hood wrote:
Firstly though, I have found it interesting to hear of the style of the attack at initiation.
Am I correct in that you (as uke) required to grasp tori's wrist - from their knee??
Heard of it being done that way, but not actually seen it. Not from hanmi hantachi at least. Well there you go then.
Hi David,

Yup...that's how its taught as a *kihon waza* in Yoshinkan. See the 2nd technique shown on the clip Charles posted. It's used from a pull by uke.

The 3rd technique in the clip is done when uke pushes (hence the pivot)...there's some fun/cool hand and wrist motion there to make that work that I really like.

These are taught as part of the Yoshinkan syllabus as kihon waza. They are both part of the 3rd kyu tests at my dojo.

David...how do you study this as kihon? What is the attack if not grabbing from the knee? I assume that it is having the hand in the air? I have done it that way in jiyuwaza and just for fun, but its not part of the syllabus. For us the ryotemochi technique is also done from the knee...see the first tech in the clip. How about for you?

From a kihon waza perspective it would seem to me to change the point being taught in the kihon waza. Which is perfectly fine, but I am curious as to what techniques you use to train for that pull by uke to try and raise you up, or that push by uke to try and keep you on the ground. To me these two techniques are very unique in the fundamental principles they show/demonstrate/practice and I am curious what you use as an alternative.

It does explain, however, why I was confused about what the question was at the beginning. Now it makes more sense when you consider that the person is grabbing a hand in front of them instead of reaching down to bring it up. <wry grin>

cheers,

--Michael

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Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 05-14-2005, 01:17 AM   #33
xuzen
 
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Re: covering your openings

Rob (The thread starter),

Please allow me to rephrase your initial question as how I interpret it, if I am wrong, then I apologize.

Are you meaning to say that when you grab an shite/tori's wrist during hanmi handachi and while shite performs shihonage you THINK you can kick with your legs or punch with the other hand?

My answer: -

This technique hanmi handachi katate mochi shihonage osae, (one sitting, one standing single hand grab four directional throw) for the irimi version; when uke grabs and pull you towards him, you move in at an angle while twisting the wrist making his body facing away from you, at the same time using this twisting motion, you are suppose to make the uke off balance and he should be on tip toe.

For the tenkan version; as uke pushes, you pivot and again using the arm/wrist twisting motion, off balance him and get uke on tip toe.

Remember to keep him off balance (never never allow him/her to regain balance) and when you are in position, drop your arm 90 degrees vertical downwards together with your uke.

This is how hanmi handachi katate mochi shihonage osae has been taught to me by my sensei. When he initiate his movement, I am already on tip toes, I don't see how I can get a second punch nor kick in without falling over. Even if I do punch or kick, there won't be power behind the strike as my balance already has been broken.

This is how I understand hanmi handachi katate mochi shihonage osae. Is this different from how you are shown, Rob?

Boon.

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Old 05-14-2005, 03:01 AM   #34
Charlie
 
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Re: covering your openings

This is how I interpret someone NOT being able to launch a secondary attack if the shihonage is being done properly!

http://www.aikidojournal.com/catalog...php?code=dvd26

Attacking arm is completely locked which in turn moves uke's center around you. Uke up on his toes and being controlled.

This is the Diato Ryu version...but same principles.

And yes Michael...Parker Shihan does stress leaning farther back until uke's armpit is above you head. You were absolutely right in your assessment that he doesn't need too (heehee).

Regards,

Charles Burmeister
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Old 05-14-2005, 06:21 AM   #35
rob_liberti
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Re: covering your openings

I see that I did a poor job of explaining the attack I was working on, While I understand that it is a good training exercise to let the uke grab your hand at your knee, I wasn't playing at that level of martial reality. I was more playing in the realm where if I were coming in at the nage and I saw their hands down at their knee, I would be thinking, "Captain, their shields are down! FIRE!" and I would punch them in the head. I expect that I'm grabbing the wrist to get it out of the way and to have a launching platform for the next attack. Also, I don't typically ever grab such that the middle of my palm is pressed against the uke's wrist. (Unless they are a total beginner, I'm not generally completely giving myself to the nage as their slave.) Anyway, given my grab intention, and my wrist flexibility I really don't see myself standing on my toes if I thinking grab wrist to hit head and or kick (cross laterally). .Anyway, good comments and interesting clip.

Thanks, Rob
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Old 05-14-2005, 09:40 AM   #36
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Re: covering your openings

See...that's the part that I never can understand! (Not to pick on you Rob) How can someone give a committed attack by not whole heartedly GRABBING with ALL the hand. If you are grabbing in such a manner that you do not commit the whole hand to the grab then you are not effectively grabbing are you? How can anyone possible try to grab in a manner to control someone by not using all of their digits (and subsequently the palm as well)? Whether to grab a wrist or a shoulder or an arm requires the use of all the hand. If you're not using your palm in the grab then what are you using...just you finger tips?

If that is the case then don't you think shite/tori could feel that it was nothing more than a feint or a preparatory for something else? If you went to grab someone in a seated position without the true intent to grab them but to strike them in a different manner would show in your approach.

Now that being said, I would have to state again that if the attacker was getting a solid grip on you in the first place...you're too late. It doesn't matter if YOU intend to grab solidly. If shite/tori initiates movement at the beginning of the attack - before the grip is solid they still COULD make the grip solid whether you want it to be or not.

And if they are good enough to make it solid then you will most likely end up on your toes and unable to follow up with a secondary attack.

Regards,

Charles Burmeister
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Old 05-14-2005, 12:09 PM   #37
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Re: covering your openings

Hi Michael,

In answer to your question… You are correct in assuming that we have the hand being offered, much in the same way that it is offered in tachiwaza. We do not put the hand on our thigh/knee area. Our reasoning for this all stems from the position that all Kihon Waza are drill oriented -- by which we mean that they are not specific answers to given self-defense scenarios. The wrist grab then is understood to mark a critical space/time. It is primarily this and not an attack on the wrist. Of significance, we feel the distance of two slightly bent arms marks the time/space of when one needs to have a sense and/or gain a sense of now being in a critical moment. This is the time/space to move -- otherwise one is going to have to suffer the consequences and/or adapt to shorter-range tactics.

I am not suggesting that a wrist grab and a strike happen at this same distance (i.e. range) but I am suggesting that the space/time of katate-dori is equivalent to when one must move (should one opt to move) when facing the space/time of a strike. While I personally agree it is important to study various architectures according to various types of energy (e.g. pushing/pulling, etc.), I would not want to study them if it meant I had to violate that critical time/space I mentioned above. When we want to deal with such things, we tend to dissect a waza into parts and address such things that way. For example, if I want to see if I have the proper te-sabaki for the slight lifting of shiho-nage, and I want to measure that against someone with enough pushing energy to pin my hand on my thigh, I might have him/her push my hand down with ryote-dori, plus maybe another person assisting him/her, and then I would just work on getting my hands up to the top of my head. We may or may not, most often not, do the rest of the technique. Why? For us, for me, I think developing that sense of critical time/space is vital to spontaneous action -- more vital than being able to answer, "What do I do if someone grabs my wrist at my knee?" This sense is developed bodily and so I try very hard not to send the body mixed messages as much as possible.

On the "up on his/her toes" check. I would like to suggest that this is only a check if the person on their toes wants to get their feet back on the ground. As such, this is only a check on the opponent's height and only in one direction -- really. It does not really affect the person's capacity to seek width (and thus bring his/her cross-lateral weapons to target). If one accepts that he/she is going up and cannot come down, though the pain remains, one can still find the cross-lateral roundhouse kick only it will be of a "flying" nature. As one accepts that he/she is going up, the lock somewhat reduces its effectiveness -- which is further reduced once the flying roundhouse kick has disengaged Nage's Body Fusion and Directional Harmony from the lock's architecture. To check width, one needs to have Uke's body turn, not just rise. I would say that uke's body needs to turn even more than in this last picture of Kondo.

(Does anyone else think that Uke of Kondo's makes too many faces -- kind of hamming it up a bit???? I've seen him make that same face for things that seem totally out of place. It's almost like Yamano's uke for me. )

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-14-2005, 07:31 PM   #38
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: covering your openings

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
While I personally agree it is important to study various architectures according to various types of energy (e.g. pushing/pulling, etc.)
I just wanted to say that, if nage is aware and not caught by surprise by this grab, the intention to push, pull, rotate etc. should be irrelevant because at the instant of cantact nage is already moving in such a way as to position ukeproperly (as described by David).

I see this as completely compatible with how David described the technique. I need to rotate my partner so that his hip and shoulder lines (the line of shoulder to shoulder and the line of hip to hip) have changed maing it impossible for uke to kick or punch with the back leg or arm. If one is behind the line of the shoulders the uke cannot punch him and if one is behind the line of the hiops he cannot execute a straight kick; however he can shift his weight and execute a side kick so the weight must also be dropped to preclude this. The grabbed hand must drop causing the uke's weight to shift forward, thereby making a kick with the front foot impossible.

Uke of course will not wish to be in this position and his attempt to right himself supplies energy for the raise needed to do the shihonage.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 05-15-2005, 03:19 AM   #39
Jorx
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Re: covering your openings

Just for the record I reffered to gyakuhanmi as wristcontrol not to shihonage.
I'm out of this thread now... as people are discussing hanmihandachi details not too interested in that...
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Old 05-15-2005, 06:05 AM   #40
Charlie
 
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Re: covering your openings

I think this is where people tend to get "caught up" in the presentation of technique in a kata form. In Yoshinkan kihon waza (basic technique), for the technique hanmi handachi katate mochi shihonage, we start with the hand on the knee or thigh area. Uke comes in and grabs or pulls depending on which one we are doing. If I read David correctly, in applying your style's technique you start with the hand/wrist being offered/extended.

There is no difference. It is just a starting place to begin to teach proper body movement, proper angles and over all proper mechanics. Maybe at one point in time this was a specific technique for a specific action but I highly doubt that it would be practical in a self-defense situation in this "pure form" today. The mechanics are though!

That is precisely the point that a lot of students miss when they see a technique (kihon waza) presented in a static manner. They see it as a be all - end all to a specific attack when in fact what it truly teaches is the proper mechanics so that one can be able to apply what ever variant they need to have an effective counter to any type of attack.

Kihon waza is not self defense! It could be used as such if the situation lent itself to be perfect for that technique but how often does that happen? What is more important is to learn the basic mechanics from the "basic technique" so that the door may be opened to the whole gamut of variation that is out there (e.g. self-defense).

That being the case, the whole "but I could do this in that scenario" becomes a mute point. Although this vain of thinking still remains viable as a means of continuing to stimulate the process of learning. It doesn't do much to teach what is actual because that situation only exists in your mind and is not what is real!

What is real is the "intent" of the attack. If someone is coming in to GRAB me, what do I really have to deal with? The grab is real - but secondary to the "intent". I have a split second to deal with their "intent" either before it solidifies or after. When that happens then it can only be in an up/down, right/left, yin/yang fashion. This is fine by me because the whole premise of my Aikido practice started with "If uke pushes I do this - if uke pulls I do that.

As far as the rest of what is said, we are in agreement. I do not want uke to be ONLY on their toes. As previously stated too often I see people cross uke's center line without control of uke's center. In an actual situation this would just be screaming hit me/kick me please. When I say center that includes their hips and shoulders.

When I have uke on their toes then I have properly locked uke's wrist, arm , shoulder, center and "intent". All this makes uke light as a feather and easier to maneuver.

As always - IMHO!

Last edited by Charlie : 05-15-2005 at 06:12 AM.

Charles Burmeister
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Old 05-15-2005, 07:51 PM   #41
maikerus
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Re: covering your openings

Charles...well said.

David...no arguments from me. Your description matches what I understand.

One interesting thing about shihonage from hanmi handachi is the difference in the ellipse of the shihonage "circle" from hanmi handachi ryote mochi shihonage and "regular" shihonage or the shihonage from hanmi handachi katate mochi.

The difference between these two is that the ellipse used in ryote mochi is perpendicular to the floor while the ellipse in other shihonage is more parallel to the floor. These types of differences are what I was referring to when asking how do you train for these different movements. Does anyone else work on these kind of differences in shihonage...and if so, how?

cheers,

--Michael

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Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 05-15-2005, 08:01 PM   #42
rob_liberti
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Re: covering your openings

I think the grab is not as black and white as case 1 - you are a total slave to uke, OR case 2 - you are just pretending to touch them.

As a matter of fact, when I grip a sword, I hold it primarily with the pinkys (okay about 1/2 a pinky on the bottom of the handle) and ring fingers and then the thumbs. I don't stick my other fingers out, I do grip completely, and I never press my palms directly against the handle.

When I grab a wrsit I do the same thing (unless I'm working with a total beginner and I think it would be more helpful to them). I tend to start my grab rotating the thumbs from inside to outside until I make contact (which is kind of like a dog bite) and then if it's a sempai or dohai I then start twisting my hand(s) the other way and try to jam their center through that contact in a more center to center way.

I understand that if the nage does their job well that I can't get that good of a grab, or if the nage is really good they don't care how good a grab I have on them. The thing is, that given that grab from someone with a farily flexible wrist, followed by those possible attacks, it seems that nage's movement to avoid the kick exposes the head to a strike, and the move the protect against the head strike exposes the head. I don't mean to belabor the point. I'll grab some more sempai and try until someone woops me good. I do understand that you might have to abandon the shihonage, but I suppose I was looking for when to abandon it and what some good ideas would be for what to do instead - or if shihonage can be done safely. Either way the interest is not to poo poo basic waza but to understand it better.

Anyway, thanks for the comments and interest! Rob
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Old 05-15-2005, 08:21 PM   #43
rob_liberti
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Re: covering your openings

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
The thing is, that given that grab from someone with a farily flexible wrist, followed by those possible attacks, it seems that nage's movement to avoid the kick exposes the head to a strike, and the move the protect against the head strike exposes the head.
Sorry, I'm super tired and it is showing. That should have ended with

..and the move the protect against the head strike exposes them to the cross lateral kick.

Sorry! (need sleep now!) - Rob
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Old 05-16-2005, 07:31 AM   #44
Ron Tisdale
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Re: covering your openings

Quote:
(Does anyone else think that Uke of Kondo's makes too many faces -- kind of hamming it up a bit???? I've seen him make that same face for things that seem totally out of place. It's almost like Yamano's uke for me. )
Shizuo Amano Sensei is one tough SOB...Have you ever felt Kondo Sensei apply that technique? I know much of modern day aikido equates pain with 'bad' technique...

When Daito ryu people talk of locking all three joints in sucsession, they aren't kidding. If someone good does this control, you are on your toes, slapping like mad, and NOT thinking about kicking or punching. You are thinking about not losing a joint. But hey, unless you've taken the ukemi...I might think he was hamming it up too...

Ron

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Old 05-16-2005, 01:26 PM   #45
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Re: covering your openings

I'm sure he is a tough man and no I haven't felt Kondo Sensei's shiho-nage. And I would not equate pain with bad technique.

The most similar thing, in my opinion, I may have felt is Chiba's versions of the technique (which also make use of the lock) and Nomura's (which gave me a three-year long shoulder/elbow injury) - either case, can't say I made that face. When I watch the Daito-Ryu tapes, Kondo's other uke doesn't make those faces either. Understand, I see this as a silly little point, but can I ask if you make those faces when you take ukemi from Kondo?

Here's the thing, through the years, I've just been exposed and/or had witness to a lot of uke that seem to see it as part of their ukemi to let folks know that the technique is painful and/or is working. Other uke don't. My preference has always been for the latter - but that is such a personal thing it's not even worth mentioning. And I can't say what kind of uke Shizuo Amano is - so I'll take your word for it. I just wanted to give you my background for a preference of a particular type of uke to say that I would agree that Shizuo Amano is tough and that that technique is indeed painful.

thanks,
dmv

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Old 05-16-2005, 01:31 PM   #46
Ron Tisdale
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Re: covering your openings

Kool...I was just currious.

RT

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Old 05-16-2005, 05:20 PM   #47
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: covering your openings

So I had a chance finally tonight to try a hanmi handachi katatedori shihonage with a dojo-mate...With the caveat that we're both quite inexperienced, here's what we did:

Our basic shihonage from hanmi handachi, tori offers a hand up in the air for uke to grab, uke pushes slightly towards tori's center. Tori has their shoulder extended, so that their arm doesn't collapse but the arm is free to move in the shoulder and so that there's a contact between both partners centers. Tori moves forward to the front of uke with their inside knee/leg, and lets their arm deflect as a result of the movement. Thing is, if the original distance is two arms lengths, and tori moves closer, the arms must go somewhere, right? So if tori's right wrist was grabbed, they let their and uke's arms deflect toward tori's left shoulder. Continuing the movement forward under uke's arm, turn and throw. And I forgot, tori's other hand takes ukes wrist during the first movement, so the action kinda goes from the first hand being grabbed and deflect into the second hand throwing.

What happens to uke is that they grab and immediately get taken out of balance to their forward weak point. Ways to screw this up include failing to connect to uke properly from the first instant, or trying to pull uke's arms in the wished for direction, instead of letting the direction come as a result of the movement. Or letting the arms collapse during the deflection. Or...

So anyway, we tried with an additional punch with the other hand, or a kick with the back foot. The punch didn't make all that much difference because the punching hand gets blocked by tori's arms and uke's other arm... the kick made ukemi very exiting indeed because it added momentum in the direction where uke was falling anyway.

We also tried different kinds of grabs, pulling, less contact, but as long as tori managed to make the connection it didn't matter very much, although with a pull the technique went in a slightly different direction. I'm pretty sure that with a more experienced partner I couldn't have pulled some of these off though - the more experienced uke is, the better the connection has to be that I can make with them, and my connecting abilities are limited.

I also tried briefly with another dojomate who is more experienced than I am - I could barely throw him from a basic attack, adding the kick made it slightly easier. The added momentum again.

Well, I don't know how much sense my attempts at technical description make, but we got a good moment of practice out of this question, so thanks for that.

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 05-17-2005, 09:01 AM   #48
Charlie
 
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Re: covering your openings

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
...The problem that I have is that in my experience, this pretty much requires the straight arm shihonage, which seems to be a no-no in much of modern aikido, and which has its own set of problems. Experienced people often simply don't allow their elbows to be easily straightened, and Ellis Amdur has shown a simple way to immediately break that lock if it is achieved (described in a recent thread)...
Ron...Which thread covered this topic?

And for those that are NOT advocates of the "straight arm" shihonage...

What do you suggest as an alternative if you are either "late" in getting proper position on uke to apply "folded arm" shihonage or uke is too strong for you to be able to fold the arm and the "straight arm" would be the logical next step?

Regards,

Charles Burmeister
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Old 05-17-2005, 09:47 AM   #49
Ron Tisdale
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Re: covering your openings

Hi Charles, I'll try to look that up in a couple of minutes...

Ron

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Old 05-17-2005, 10:35 AM   #50
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: covering your openings

Could you describe a bit more what you mean with a straight arm shihonage and folded arm shihonage, I'm a bit lost here?

Thanks
Pauliina
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