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Old 05-13-2005, 04:05 AM   #26
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
Location: Reading, UK
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 393
United Kingdom
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
I am posting from a country where Islam is a prominent religion. The assistant instructor himself is a Muslim and a scholar in Islamic studies; my platonic girlfriend who was injured is a Muslim and my lady sempai who has just "run away" is a Muslim.
The religion of those at your dojo has nothing to do with this situation. Crossing lines and permitting abuse is simply not done in a good dojo.

Quote:
A physical confrontation with this guy is out of the question as long as we (my dojo mates & I) want to train and practice aikido in this country.
He's really that powerful is he?

Quote:
I am hoping that the dojo owners would come across this thread and know that it relates to the situation there and take appropriate action.
That is a very cowardly attitude.

Quote:
Other than the attitude and lack of spiritual maturity of this particular assistant instructor, the training atmosphere in my dojo is extremely good and positive but if this is allowed to go on more and more of us will be walking out the door.
It's such a great place to train, but there's an instructor with a bad attitude who causes people to leave and who everyone is afraid of?

Quote:
Perhaps I will send a link to this thread to the dojo owners
No. Do something about it. It is your responsibility as a human being to stand up for your friends.

Face your fear and do it - it won't be as bad as you think it will be and you have a great opportunity here to turn a bad situation into a good one.

I wish you courage,

Ruth
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Old 05-13-2005, 05:22 AM   #27
jk
Location: Indonesia
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 245
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

This is addressed to the thread starter... I may have a good idea which instructor you're referring to. Please PM or e-mail me; I'm willing to help in any way I can.
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Old 05-13-2005, 07:36 AM   #28
"Embarrassed"
IP Hash: 2a3aee61
Anonymous User
Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
John Kuo wrote:
This is addressed to the thread starter... I may have a good idea which instructor you're referring to. Please PM or e-mail me; I'm willing to help in any way I can.
Mr. Kuo,

If you have a strong clue as to who the instructor is, perhaps you can help by highlighting this thread to him. Tell him the students are hurting but staying for the sake of the innocent - the dojo owners and the chief instructor. This thread was posted anonymous to avoid any bad publicity to the dojo and its organization and I shall remain anon for the sake of my sempai and kohai who still train there. From where you posted, you would know that there are many splinter aikido groups here and the political opponents would capitalize on this bad publicity to hurt the owners

If the person is not who you think he is, then you might lose a friend and gain an enemy. Either way you will lose. Technically the subject person may be strong but spiritually he is not, otherwise he would not be injuring the students. He might not take kindly to your advice even he is the guilty one; and temperamentally he would take it out on the students who he thought have posted here - this I am sure will happen.

I was seeking more for a legal re-dress for my girlfriend.

Regards
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Old 05-13-2005, 08:36 AM   #29
"Jon"
IP Hash: 765aec42
Anonymous User
Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
Mike Logan wrote:
Smack me if I went too far with this one folks. Anon#2, you do know I'll take you more seriously if you actually post from a username, but at this point you might just wait until next time this topic comes up.

pm me if you want to flame, ANON#2, if you can pm anonymously that is.

logan.
How I am I to know if this story was fact or fiction, no names or places included. The tone of Giri seemed sexist blaming all men for the action of one. If you take a moment and read through the thread objectively it might be revealed to you that this thread sounds very anti-Aikido. That Aikido classes are full of men perverted sick men pouncing unwanted advancements on unsuspecting woman who are fleeing the dojos in hoards.

Why didn't you capitalize the "L" in your name?
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Old 05-13-2005, 08:51 AM   #30
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Bottle him.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 05-13-2005, 11:14 AM   #31
giriasis
Dojo: Sand Drift Aikikai, Cocoa Florida
Location: Melbourne, Florida
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Bottle him.
No, just ignore him.

...


To the original poster

As to what legal avenues you can take? I doubt explaining the United States laws on sexual harassment in the workplace will do you any good. If want to take legal action, you will need to speak to an attorney or lawyer in your country to see if there is any avenues for redress under the laws of your country. I doubt citing any laws from the U.S. would help the situation.

The best action you can take is for you, yourself, along with your other dojo members who are concerned, to approach and talk to your sensei about this. Let him know. Don't just show him this thread it wouldn't help the situation, and it might up set him that your discussion this issue on the internet. These kinds of delicate should and must be handled within the dojo. If you truely care about your sensei and the owners of the dojo, don't just stick around, DO SOMETHING, and let them know what is going on.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 05-13-2005, 11:46 AM   #32
"jon"
IP Hash: ed5b192a
Anonymous User
Triangle Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

For the more sophisticated and acute readers. Let us sift thought this with our well trained skeptical and rational open minds as we should do when reading anything of importance, shall we. Let us take the first long sentence and give it a good hard look at it. It is a Vegas neon sign begging us to come in and buy it. Therefore, let us brows at it and see what we are buying.

Quote:
Embarrassed wrote:
A month & a half ago, I introduce a girlfriend to aikido. Prior to that, of course, I "sold" to her this wonderful art of peace, harmony, love and most importantly the gentlman's martial art.
I find it very interesting the phrase "I 'sold' to her this wonderful art of peace, love and most importantly the gentlman's martial art." . This isn't the author's own personal experience, it is told from his or her 3rd party point view. A person who signs on in anonymity, yet then signs the post as "Embarrassed." If this is a Vegas neon sign, I don't know what is!

The first sentence makes it really hard to give the story (aims at gaining apathy) credibility. It has earmarks of too many devices designed to persuade the reader the cause the subject is a just, thus mustering support of an apparent injustice against a woman in order to insight credibility.

Quote:
Embarrassed wrote:
She was contemplating on buying a hakama as ladies are required to wear one at our dojo.
This passage strikes me odd, and smells of a planted persuasive device to gain credibility and believability. Here is why. Here is the first point made, of several, that the woman is willing to invest a good sum of money into the class, and that she is displaying her commitment to the class monetarily. We all can relate to that and be in her shoes regardless of gender. It also indicates this woman is economically secure, and self sufficient. Why does that point need to be brought up several times the woman was going to pay high prices for classes and invest in a Hakama? Mull that over a bit, if it isn't already clear.

Then what follows next is this "usually" behavior of the "unusual" male head Sensei.

Quote:
Then at about the same time the usual instructor decided not to teach on his regular class and he was replaced by a more senior ranked albeit assistant instructor.
A tag team of sexual abusers, in concert? Is this what is being implied here? Is it a device to set up what is to follow?
Is this a very sublet attack to incite a injustice to evoke a emotional response. To win over thus convincing the reader the story is valid? What ever it is it really is odd and unconventional sounding.

Quote:
Now this guy, who does not take kindly to teaching or training with newbies, took an immediate interest to teach and correct her.
A red flag goes off. Another dubious commonality is presented. It is universal, it is something we all can relate to of any gender. The #2 man in the dojo is a bully and hazer of new students. Which unspoken is allowed by the Sensei. Here enters the villain, Vaudeville booing is heard through out the house, another device is planted. Also, the word newbies catches my attention, as that term is used more specifically on the net to indicate a new user, and not a Aikido student where we employ an impressive vocabulary of Japanese terms and words.

It also sets the woman up as a sympathetic victim, note word choice as well. According to Embarrassed the woman was new to the class and was subjected to the "unusual" direction a male the author terms as a "this guy." Yet, the author uses respectful titles for another woman in the class.[quote] Another lady senpai [quote]. The author of the story uses negative and implicating word choice to describe who she feels is a bad guy, "[he]doesn't take kindly" She goes on and says "to students, but takes interest in the woman instantly." The use of "the woman" is again an odd word choice and may be an indicator of a fictional character or the author herself.

I would say the phased discussed alerts to loaded for bear. It is an affront to males who are violent, brutish, and insensitive cads who make it a point of taking advantage of the female sex, sexually. Remember the first part of the story where the author starts of with "this wonderful art of peace, harmony, love and most importantly the gentlman's martial art." Place that with the quote above and we can see the author's device of contempt for Aikido and men.

Next is the support for the above contempt. The act of injury is then described followed by an unwarranted message. But what follows later is indicates an odd sequences of events that should have the critical reader looking more closely at the validity of the story, as it is told.

Quote:
The first time she trained with him, he hurted her shoulder with a nikkyo pin and proceeded to give her a massage on her shoulder and back without obtaining her consent.

...she came to his attention for correction and again this time he injured her with a solid pin to the ground. Again, the usual apologies and the unwarranted massage.
The we are presented with a contradiction that is oddly placed. Here again after the violence of injury which is "not" suppose to happen in Aikido, as non-violence is it's main premise, and possible sexual harassment she returns to the dojo once again, and puts down another $120.00 showing her commitment to the class.
Quote:
When she came back, she paid $120 for another month's lessons.
Showing she intends to pursue the class for yet another month of lessons despite her previous injuries and uncomfortably. And she has gone out possibly with the "guy" for drinks with the other members of the class after her injury!
Quote:
Normally she would join the rest of us for after class drinks.
It is implied the intended injury was a device to get an "unwarranted message" that was sexually inappropriate, yet the message seems to have healed her enough to endure the pain to go out drinking with the rest of the gang. There is no mention of the severity of the injury, or if she had gone to a doctor immediately after the injury. Yet, she skipped a couple of months of class to nurse her injuries, so she could return to the class.
Quote:
She skipped a couple of lessons to nurse her injury.
An odd and unclear sequences and timing of events, that should draw suspicion.


Quote:
She told that she is not ever coming back to the dojo without giving any reasons.

I noted a pattern of sexual harassment but in martial art physical contacts amongst genders are common. One of the ladies has also felt this was the case (perhaps she experienced it too) and has also stopped coming to class. Have you ladies experienced this before? How do you deal with it legally?
The author indicates the woman gave no reason for not coming back so yet we are to believed it was because of the "so called sexual harassment of an unwarranted message." A message that must of been to the injured area of her body and not her genitalia, or breasts. She did return back to the for a second time class.

I don't see any indication in the story the woman was inappropriately touched. What is said is she was injured twice and received a message twice by the person who injured her. It was not mentioned ( note my third person phrasing) the woman sought out medical help for her injuries. We are lead to believe the injuries where sever and the message was sexual without any support. Then the author calls on all woman who have had [same] experience before, and inquires about legal action. The author states her self as the third person, who attends the dojo, yet indicates she or neither the female "Senpai" experienced the same treatment. There is no other indication of how th other males reacted or felt about the situation. The tone of the story is similar to a call for a lynch mob.
I am not saying sexual harassment or abuse doesn't happen. All I am saying is this is a matter of critical thinking. There are too many flags and flaws in this story to stomp the foot down and say by golly the story is true. I will stake the farm on it, Bubba get the rope! Even the header of the thread is spamish. Is this person a troll, a man hater, a poor writer, I am not sure. I am judging the story has too many well known devices that are to arouse an emotional reaction intended for the reader to affront and vilify men, and defame Aikido, and I can't buy it. For me to buy it now, I would have to have names, places and dates. Which also triggers another alarm of why was this post in this section.

Just as one person said emotionally he would not take me seriously and would flame me with other because I felt the story was bogus and treated it with skepticism as any any educated and intelligent mind should. Therefore, my point of posting in anonymity is for the same reason as the author, in order to enhance my opinion, as well as the woman in the story to avoid verbal violence, assumptions, scorn and harassment directed personally at me because I am of a more educated and cautious approach to the story, and I am willing to voice it.
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Old 05-13-2005, 11:50 AM   #33
"jon"
IP Hash: ed5b192a
Anonymous User
Post Correction

Code error in original. Correction:

Quote:
Another lady senpai
. The author of the story uses negative and implicating word choice to describe who she feels is a bad guy, "[he]doesn't take kindly" She goes on and says "to students, but takes interest in the woman instantly." The use of "the woman" is again an odd word choice and may be an indicator of a fictional character or the author herself.

I would say the phased discussed alerts to loaded for bear. It is an affront to males who are violent, brutish, and insensitive cads who make it a point of taking advantage of the female sex, sexually. Remember the first part of the story where the author starts of with "this wonderful art of peace, harmony, love and most importantly the gentlman's martial art." Place that with the quote above and we can see the author's device of contempt for Aikido and men.

Next is the support for the above contempt. The act of injury is then described followed by an unwarranted message. But what follows later is indicates an odd sequences of events that should have the critical reader looking more closely at the validity of the story, as it is told.

Quote:
The first time she trained with him, he hurted her shoulder with a nikkyo pin and proceeded to give her a massage on her shoulder and back without obtaining her consent.

...she came to his attention for correction and again this time he injured her with a solid pin to the ground. Again, the usual apologies and the unwarranted massage.
.
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Old 05-13-2005, 12:13 PM   #34
giriasis
Dojo: Sand Drift Aikikai, Cocoa Florida
Location: Melbourne, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

:::hears noise coming from a room:::

:::views site...M. Sigman with chip on shoulder:::

:::walks away shaking head:::


To the original poster. I actually believe you. Just do what you think is best for all the parties invovled.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 05-13-2005, 12:37 PM   #35
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Hi Anne Marie,

I don't think the other anon is Mike...he is not around just now...and unless the Mauri have web connections...I really don't think he's stalking us.

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-13-2005, 12:37 PM   #36
MattRice
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Maryland
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 123
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Um...yeah.

Anyway...I think it's all about context. There's a guy at our dojo who massages my shoulder after every pin. But he does it to everyone, all the time. It's benevolent and feels good.

The situation here was accurately described as creepy. Now, we don't really know what happened, but if dude really hurt the girl so he could rub on her: man that's f'd up.

However, I'm not sure it's right to jump all over our anonymous poster because he didn't do anything. That's a judgment call only he is in a position to make. If it were me, I'd talk to sensei. If that didn't get anywhere, something's wrong at the top. If I SAW it happening: I think something more immediate would have to be done. When I was in karate, a couple of situations came up similar to this. Sensei would notice what was going on and the offender would be sparring with sensei next thing you knew. MAN that was some funny stuff.

As for our second anonymous poster: What…?

Matt
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Old 05-13-2005, 12:44 PM   #37
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Anne, have to say not a fan of guessing names in an anon thread. The anon thread is there to allow names to be disregarded even if you have a good guess on who it is.

I also don't like the previous implication that staying anon on such a thread is somehow underhanded.

As regards the critical thinking path on dissecting the original post, I'll have to be put into the gullible camp for several reasons. I take most posts, especially anon ones, at face value firstly because they normally come under the heading of internet tales for me where there is bound to be bias on the posters part. Without further input (and hopefully information) from other posters or, preferably further input from the original poster I'm happy to wait before crying foul. More prosaically, I'm never sure of a persons native language, so hesitate to read too much into sentence structure.

However, where I am beginning to feel uncomfortable with the thread starter is the repeated appeal for outside help rather than just opinion, which is where the "call for a lynch" mob comment does have merit. There have been several good posts mentioning the need to bring this to the associations attention if there is a problem (even if it is only a perceived one) and even an offer of direct help, so I fail to see what more an internet forum can be expected to actually provide.
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Old 05-13-2005, 01:27 PM   #38
"Anon#4"
IP Hash: 92418cab
Anonymous User
Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
Matt Rice wrote:
snip...
As for our second anonymous poster: What…? Matt
The anonymous players so far:

Anon#1 93.190.78 The thread starter aka "Embarrassed"
Anon#2 30.220.146
Anon#3 73.43.72 or 74.189.19

Enter "Anon#4", comments:

Anon#3 is trying to distort the version of the story given by the thread starter. His version is the injured woman joins the assistant instructor and the rest of the dojo mates at a bar for after class drinks. I didn't read this in the starter's thread. How many of you guys drink at a bar after class? After class drinks can mean at a cafe or at a juice bar. The starter did mentioned that he/she was posting from a country where Islam is a majority's religion - it can't be any place in the States or European. Anon#3 in his lengthy post has many added things read into the original one. What, he is more educated and intelligent as he said he was?

The starter's thread seems genuine enough so much so that John Kuo seems to know the identity of the perpetrator. This means there are similar incidents such as the one depicted here that gave John a clue of the person's identity.

Anon#3 73.43.72 or 74.189.19 could be the character or a similar character of the instructor described by Embarrassed. If John Kuo can relate this to a person he thinks he know, I guess many of us can also relate this to similar incidents, experience and the people who share this trait of student abuse or sexual abuse.

Anon#1 the thread started has indicated his/her reasons for anonymity. Anon#3 appears more dubious to me. As for me, my anonymity is I am posting in the Anonymous Section.

Best Anon#4
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Old 05-13-2005, 01:49 PM   #39
"anonymous"
IP Hash: e30bf67d
Anonymous User
Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

I would like to clear something up for the idiotic male who thinks everyone is out to get him and his gender.
Not all females are strong enough to fight back, even verbally. Coming from an abusive or domineering background it is so easy to assume that it is just your imagination and that it doesn't mean what you think it does. Often anyone in any kind of official or senior role is someone to be feared and never challenged. I can easily see why the girl in question kept coming back. I know some will be offended by this but it can be a lot like a kicked dog. She will keep coming back with her tail between her legs hoping for acceptance.
Speaking from experience, I know how easy it is to fall into that trap, especially if it is something you were raised to. It doesn't matter how old or how big and strong you are.
I have been doing aikido for some time now and I can safely say that I have never felt threatened or intimidated by any of the guys I train with. They have never hurt me and I have never had need to fear them but if this had happened to me early in my training I may have responded in the same way she did.

Not all females are weak and in need of protecting but you must remember that some are. Perhaps she had finally plucked up the courage to learn to protect herself and this opportunity has been taken by someone who really should have known better.
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Old 05-13-2005, 02:17 PM   #40
MikeLogan
 
MikeLogan's Avatar
Location: Rochester, NY
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Thank you ANON #4, you've restored your good name

ANON 2 & 3, My post stands, and the one valid yet filamentous notion you put forth that I'll agree with, and only because it was distilled by Ian Hurst, is namely the potential for mob mentality in response.

Quote:
Just as one person said emotionally he would not take me seriously and would flame me with other because I felt the story was bogus and treated it with skepticism as any any educated and intelligent mind should.
I invited you to pm me, and to flame me there if you were so inclined. And not because of your perceptions, or your feelings, but because you posted anon without adequate reasoning, here comes your reasoning
Quote:
Therefore, my point of posting in anonymity is for the same reason as the author, in order to enhance my opinion, as well as the woman in the story to avoid verbal violence, assumptions, scorn and harassment directed personally at me because I am of a more educated and cautious approach to the story,
The original poster did so anonymously because it is a serious topic, with serious economic and legal ramifications, and they were providing at least some protection to the party they feel aggrieved by. So, if this was an attempt at character assassination why would the original poster feel the need to protect the dojo? I doubt it was to avoid what you certainly are trying to do. While I can't put your name in front of these remarks, I do know you're reading them.

Quote:
and I am willing to voice it.
Behind the aegis of anonymity. You had none of the reasons of the first poster, and you had no reason to anticipate 'verbal violence', and the most violent i will get is noting what grand run on sentences you seem rather fond of up in that ivory tower of open-mindedness and edjumacation of your's. Or you anticipated this 'verbal violence' because some part of you thinks you might be going just a bit too far. It's that part of you that I'm trying to talk to, by the way.

It seems like this conversation is approaching the limit of redundant, but if you want me to explain myself further #2&#3, just pick each point, and I will do my best.

LoGaN (and I capitalized the L just for you mate) .
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Old 05-13-2005, 02:56 PM   #41
giriasis
Dojo: Sand Drift Aikikai, Cocoa Florida
Location: Melbourne, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Anne Marie,

I don't think the other anon is Mike...he is not around just now...and unless the Mauri have web connections...I really don't think he's stalking us.

RT
So there is someone else out there that is actually like that? :::shivers:::

I will correct my statement: :::looks into room and sees someone with a chip on shoulder:::

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 05-13-2005, 03:26 PM   #42
Mashu
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 106
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

It was Anon#3 in the changing room with the massage.


Anyway, if high ranking people in a dojo are displaying defective behavior then don't bother with the place or the head instructor's organization. Let nature take it's course and in time their bodies will float down the river.
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Old 05-13-2005, 03:35 PM   #43
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo



Oh, and Mike would just post under his own name, he wouldn't bother being anonymous...

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-13-2005, 07:58 PM   #44
"jon"
IP Hash: c850430a
Anonymous User
Triangle Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

For those who are mature enough to discuss a topic. This is not for those who only can throw meaningless self gratifying insults in lieu of any kind of refute at someone who simply questions what is read. A person who doesn't jump on the bandwagon.

For the sake of a loosely made argument, say the story is true but the third party description given is inaccurate. For those who have achieved a higher level of education or those who understand communication, understand how communication can be grossly distorted when it is passed on. It would be fatal if this wasn't to be considered when determining the stories validity or accuracy as told by a third party.

The word "unwarranted message" is a conundrum as placed and used in the story of events. If I was to be injured assuming I had been sweet talked and mislead into making myself vulnerable by having say my injured shoulder messaged, and then it say the person giving the message started to talk to me in a manner I was uncomfortable with, or switch the message from being therapeutic to sensual, I would stop the message. Would this be an unwarranted message? or is the author implying "the guy" forced his hands upon her when the woman gave the directive of "NO". Based on the description and events in the story what makes the message "unwarranted"? Was this message done in public, or private? Who are the witness if it was public. Didn't anyone interfere with this "unwarranted" message? I would expect the other females to have intervene and come to the aid of the new female student getting the message, remember this supposedly has happened before to other woman.

Personally, I don't let anyone other then a licensed professional to deal with my health issues. This includes Hair cuts to messages to surgery. If some one puts a hand on my shoulder and rubbed my injured area, they would have never got past the first rub much less proceeded to rub my back. If the woman was uncomfortable why didn't she just walk away and go home. Again, I am confused on the word choice of unwarranted message. How do you get a message without consent? Was the woman passed out?

I am not sure if this event actually happen the way the author has described it. The woman who supposedly experienced the situation isn't the author, and has not posted her feelings about the incident. Nor has other members of that dojo who where there have posted. Therefore,
I still stand by my assertion that the way this story is bogus. I have opined this story is possibly an embellished of another event that has been miscommunicated to get an emotional response and empathy from the reader, it is bait. The biggest flag for my assertion is found in the last few lines of the story which calls for legal action by someone who it didn't' happen to.

As the old stand by saying going, believe 1/2 of what you see, 1/2 of what your hear, and 1/2 of what your read. The intellectual mind questions everything. It's proof that it seeks, not myths or rumors.

To change my opinion around I would again need names, places, and facts. As it stand, as the story is presented, I can't buy this story. Skepticism is a useful tool when your told "the sky is falling...the sky is falling." Or when the Circus is in town.
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Old 05-13-2005, 09:01 PM   #45
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 561
Malaysia
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
Anon#3 aka Jon wrote:
As the old stand by saying going, believe 1/2 of what you see, 1/2 of what your hear, and 1/2 of what your read. The intellectual mind questions everything. It's proof that it seeks, not myths or rumors.

To change my opinion around I would again need names, places, and facts. As it stand, as the story is presented, I can't buy this story. Skepticism is a useful tool when your told "the sky is falling...the sky is falling." Or when the Circus is in town.
For what it is worthed, the direction is you are flaming this thread for a personal motivation. If you have posted under your own name, perhaps you may obtain the facts you needed. Alas you can't do that now (or could you??? ); you painted yourself into a corner to begin with.

For an intellectual who can't tell the difference between a " message" and a "massage" - how credible is your education and intelligence?

I am done.

David Y
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Old 05-14-2005, 07:17 AM   #46
giriasis
Dojo: Sand Drift Aikikai, Cocoa Florida
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

WARNING: I haven't posted a book like this in a long time. I just had to post though. I apoligize in advanced for it being so long. Please bear with me.

Also, if you didn't notice most people here were giving advice to Embarrased as to how to appropriately handle the situations. Further comments were stated in general in regards to the situation at hand. For example, what would be accepted in their own dojo and how someone may handle the situation.

Also, you keep asking why she just didn't walk away and go home. I think that it the point, she did leave the dojo because of it. As you also pointed out we don't really know all the facts. Embarrased intially did not mention that she was Muslim and this took place in a predominantly Muslim county, probably in an attempt to conceal the identity of the school. But to me, in determining how offensive this may have been (notice the word "may") that would have been an important point as many Muslims would find such touching offensive.

Also, the nature of bulletin boards is that most information is third party. How many of us really has spoken to O'Sensei? But how many times do people talk about what O'Sensei said? We are not in a courtroom here on these boards, so the concept of "hearsay" does not come into play.

Also, if your concerned about negative harm being thrust upon the person in question, well, this is the Anonymous forum. There's a reason for it -- so a person can ask about difficult, delicate and complicate issues on the internet with out worry about identifying the dojo to which they belong.

I believe the term I've been using is "unwelcomed" not "unwarranted" . Usally, to determine who makes that decision is the person on the receiving end or what a reason person in the situation would have decided or what a reasonable Muslim woman would have felt as unwelcome. Those are three different standards. The first is completly subject what is unwelcomed is what that particular woman in that particular situation would have felt has "unwarranted" or "unwelcomed". The second is an objective standard in which a person, a reasonable person, would have felt as "unwarranted' or "unwelcomed" and the third is a mixed standard what a reasonable muslim woman have felt as "unwarranted" or "unwelcome" given the circumstances.

Now, those are typical standards used in U.S. law in assault and battery situations.

A battery is an offensive tounching that offended the person being touched, that offensive touching actually occured, it proximately caused the person being touched harm and the person who did the act had the intent either had the implied or actual intent to do such an act. An assault is an apprehension that such unwelcomed touching might occured.

In this case, lets just say a "battery" is what is at issue. The first point would be to address whether an offensive touching occured. What is offensive can be a simple as someone not wanting to be touched. If we take the mixed standard, the one applied in Florida, USA, then the fact finder (court or jury) would asked would a reasonable Muslim woman in this situation find this touching offensive. If it is true as the previous poster mentioned that a Muslim woman would not welcome a massage from someone other than her husband, then the factfinder could determine that the "touching" was offensive. BUT if an objective standard was used not taking into consideration outside factors, then as you saw here on this board that reasonable people would disagree as to whether or not the massage itself was offensive. ALSO, if it was a purely subjective standard, then no matter the mental the conditon of the woman invovled, if she said it was offensive then it would be offensive.

The next question is was she actually touched? In two situations, while she was at class after being injured by the assistant instructor she was taken to the side of the mat and her injuries massaged. The fact finder would need to hear testimony from the woman herself as to the events that occured to support the allegation that the offensive touching occured twice. If what the original poster said is true, then the woman would testify to such an account and the factfinder could determine that the woman in question was actually touched?

The third question to ask is whether the touching was the proximate cause to the harm that may have resulted from such offensive touching. Usually, under U.S. law the touching has to cause some kind of damage. Such as when you hit someone you leave a bruise. There can be emotional harm, but, usually, such harm must result in some kind of injury -- headaches, fear of going outside, etc. Here there was an injury but it was an injury that resulted from her practice of aikido not from the massage, unless somehow her injury was exacerbated by the massage since soft tissue injuries should be iced and not massaged. Or one could argue that she lost money because she was afraid to go back to the dojo because of this man (but that depend on her testimony) (The case starts to fall about here.)

Finally, what was the intent of the person who perfomed the touching? He has to have the intent to cause and offensive touching. There are two kinds of intent actual and implied. Actual means that he can he wanted to massage her to offend her. And implied means that he knew or should have known that his touching would offend her. Actual intent can be very difficult to prove as it usually requires the person who performed the touching to state that was their actual intent. However, more often it takes an implied intent. In this case, both parties were Muslim, or both at least lived in a premdominantly Muslim country so they would have the knowledge that a Muslim woman would be offended if she were massage by someone other than her husband. If such facts could be proven to a fact finder (judge or jury), then they could determine that he knew or should have known that such touching would be offensive.

The person who performed the touching best affirmative defense would be that she consent to such a touching and that he obtained her consent. Did she vocalize any sort or objective, did he ask for her to sit to the side of the mat so he could give her a massage. Or should he have known under the circumstances that consent would not have been given.

His other defense would be realted to causation. Did the touching cause any harm? Other than being upset was there any harm that resulted? It could be that she paid money to the dojo and she lost that money because she didn't feel welcome to return. But that all depends on case law.

So in conclusion: A factfinder, a judge or jury, could determine that there was: 1) an offensive touching (mixed standard); 2) the offensive touching occured; 3) that there was an Implied intent to perform an offensive touching. However, it will be more difficult for a fact find to find whether harm occured as a result of the offensive touching, and the person performing the touching whould have an affirmative defense of consent.

You see, this is the kind of though process that goes through my mind when someone asks for advice, espcially on the legal side of things. But the problem is that my determination is based on my understanding of the law in the U.S. Laws are different in Muslim countrys, and I'd be awefully arrogant to assume that my laws applies to theirs. That is why I said to Embarrased that he seek counsel in his own country.

[CAVEAT: None of the above is intend to convey legal advice but to merely illustrate a point. Please do not rely on this in any situation. If you find yourself in a legal situation seek out an attorney under laws of where you live. The results could be radically different so please do not rely on this. This illustration is based on my understanding of the laws of Florida, U.S. and I have performed no legal research on case law on this matter. So, do not rely on this.]

Last edited by giriasis : 05-14-2005 at 07:30 AM.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 05-14-2005, 09:40 AM   #47
"jon"
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Triangle Re: Spreading this wonderful budo- the sky is falling!

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote:


Also, if you didn't notice most people here were giving advice to Embarrassed as to how to appropriately handle the situations. Further comments were stated in general in regards to the situation at hand. For example, what would be accepted in their own dojo and how someone may handle the situation.

Also, you keep asking why she just didn't walk away and go home. I think that it the point, she did leave the dojo because of it.
Ms. Giri,

No need to appologize for explaining your point of view. I appreciate the details and effort in your post, the length doesn't bother me in the cyber world of Postit Notes.

How is this for comparison of the thread which I don't bite, vs. an alternative that would be less suspicious. The original is denoted as 1. The alternative is denoted as 2. :

Titles:

1. Spreading this Wonderful Budo.

2. Need advice for a Friend who had been harassed.

Introduction:

1. A month & a half ago, I introduce a girlfriend to aikido. Prior to that, of course, I "sold" to her this wonderful art of peace, harmony, love and most importantly the gentlman's martial art.

2. A month and a half ago, I introduced a girlfriend to Aikido, and it wasn't a pleasant experience for her. I felt she was treated poorly, and possibly sexually harassed.

Also not the author stated she introduced a girlfriend to Aikido, who after the incident could not reach her by phone, but yet another woman in the class could. Very odd, hails a red flag.

You would have to be blindfolded not to see what the author is saying, and doing. It is an affront, insult, an attack directly on Aikido. And I understand people who got taken into this my feel embarrassed and are turning it around to make the best of a bad situation.

But frankly, there are millions of people around the world who take Aikido, mostly men. There are thousands of people who post and here. Aikido has been popular for decades, and yet there are a handful of publicly known incidents of sexual harassment in the Aikido community. This points to no reason for alarm concerning sexual harassment in Aikido dojos. More clearly, Aikido isn't full of males sexually abusing females. If fact is it pretty rare. Aikido doesn't need that reputation of an art that is a place that accepts sexual abuse, this is evident by many of the posts here, and on other boards. Nor is it accurate or ethical to perpetuate or Or is it ethical to blow this out of proportion. Regardless of that some feel an alarm must be blown to warn the world of this evil, hypocritical, immoral, and unethical art of Aikido. Aikido it doesn't deserve it, and the good people who practice it don't deserve it. Do you disagree?


What concerns me as the story not being factual or has been twisted for an agenda is, yes, why didn't she leave the dojo initially and not come back after the uncomfortable massage and the injury? Why did she return and then proceeding to commit to another month of classes said to be $120.00- which is very high for a month's class. That is not rational or normal behavior of a person who felt sexually harassed and purposely injured. Are you saying that this isn't normal or rational behavior. Humans have a mechanism that tells us to get the hell out when the building is on fire, and not stand around and light matches. You don't stick or commit for another month in a dojo where you feel uncomfortable because a person is doubly abusing you.

I like your caveat at the end of your post, but I am not clear on that in conjunction with what you said is the point of the thread, "notice most people here were giving advice to Embarrassed." Because the author is asking for what legal action can be taken at the end of her post. Not advice on how to find a better dojo and/or how to avoid any such future situations if she should come across them. I am wondering why the author is asking for herself, penned in the first person, and not her so-called friend which she can't get a hold of by phone.

I hope you can see my view point is that of skepticism based on the inconsistance etc. of the story and the possible agenda of the author ( who by the way didn't say she was the one who left the class, but rather her girlfriend). It is not to insult all those who carry their emotions on their sleeve, or those to incited those who flame those who don't jump on th bandwagon without looking. Rather to take a serious matter that affects Aikido and all those who practice it, and look at its validity first prior to judgement. I think that is rational and fair behavior, isn't it.
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Ms. Giri, an interesting sig line; is there still a war on men?
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Old 05-14-2005, 10:46 AM   #48
RebeccaM
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

1) I am not sure what attcking the credibility of the thread starter is going to accomplish. If the original poster wanted to warn people off aikido, they wouldn't be coming to aikiweb to do it.

2) Some of his or her sentance constructions are giving me the impression that Embarassed speaks English as a second language. There's nothing wrong with them, they're just a bit different from how a native speaker would say things. I could be way off base though. That would certainly explain the discrepancy some see in the title.

3) Do we even know what gender Embarassed is (and why it even matters)?

4) This thread was never about attacking men. A couple anonymous posters seem to want to think otherwise, but I think that says a lot more about their attitudes than the actual situation. No one here is trying to paint all men in aikido or martial arts with the same brush. No one is saying these incidents are common. I've trained in three aikido dojos and one karate club. I've never felt harassed or unwelcome in a martial arts club. In the minority yes, but I don't find that particularily threatening. However, that rarity is what makes incidents like this one so shocking. I read these thread and feel kinda betrayed. Shame on the sad sack who feels like he has to hurt women to approach them, and shame on the sensei for being so out-of-touch with his own dojo, and also shame on whoever set the prices for this dojo. $120/month is way too much. How do people eat when they're paying $120/month in dues? I know I couldn't!

5) As for why the woman didn't leave the first time, well, here's a lot of reasons I can think of right off hand. Maybe she really liked aikido and wanted to try it again. Maybe she thought this was an isolated event. Maybe she thought that it was acceptable behavior in the dojo. Maybe she wanted to impress Embarassed. Who knows. As for why she more or less cut off contact with Embarassed, maybe she's afraid Embarassed will try to make her go back or maybe she, for reasons of her own, is projecting her own anger at the instructor onto Embarassed. It's not the most rational thing in the world to do, but it happens.
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Old 05-14-2005, 11:06 AM   #49
MikeLogan
 
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Ok, for your concern on consistency, let's say the original poster is a guy. If his girlfriend were not speaking to him about something she felt horribly embarrased by, almost mortally so, and perhaps she now felt betrayed by his lact of action on her behalf, would you not find it reasonable that she might confide in a woman?

Notice the original poster never said anything like: "I am leaving this evil-evil-evil art of Aikido, which is filled with nothing but sex-offenders!"
And who says people have to act rational? You seem to be operating just swimmingly. Who says she wasn't trying to give the first occasion the benefit of the doubt, that she wasn't giving it a second try?

This is but one thread in a sea of white noise, and I see in no way how it could affect me, or my practice of aikido. I see no agenda, and stated my reasoning as to why.

I actually view your behaviour as a threat, which is precisely why I'm carrying on with this. I mean this literally. And to mix a compliment at the start of your last thread, with that snide bit at the end referencing a war on men. I'm speechless.

Quote:
It is an affront, insult, an attack directly on Aikido.
That's a mighty big leap, pal.
Quote:
Regardless of that some feel an alarm must be blown to warn the world of this evil, hypocritical, immoral, and unethical art of Aikido.
Hate to say it, but I totally missed this too. Perhaps it is a subliminal m'a'ssage, and so I heartily thank you for saving me from its no doubt heinous and anti-male, anit-aikido sentiment.

Bro's before Ho's, is that it?

Have you ever personally known a woman who has experienced any sort of sexual assault or harassement at all? Imagine for a moment a person's soul, the part we think is just for us; the part we know is what makes us human. The part of you that wants to love and be loved.

Now imagine this part of you being physically stabbed, clubbed, smashed into concrete and broken glass, and left bleeding in dung. This is only an approximation of the effect of sexual assault on the psyche of some, but perhaps many women. It is as if the perpetrator has the ability to prove to them that they are not human

This is not the case for all women, some luck out with the amount of psychological resilience they accumulate. But, being a man myself I have to call this an approximation. I can't fully imagine it. Also, I feel comfortable knowing that it is so very likely that I will never face sexual assault directed at my person. The last figure I heard in the united states, is that 1 in 4 women from whatever young age and upwards have experienced some form of sexual abuse, or will have in their lifetimes. This is inside the United States, chuck, and not some war-torn third world nation.

BLAH BLAH BLAH, right? This situation right here, me writing so fervently against you, is actually a fine model for sexual assault. I don't know you for one thing, but that I see you refusing to post under at least some electronic identity renders your viewpoints less valid, and so my respect for you was diminished from the start.

Ok, here comes the parallel Imagine a rapist, dark alley, woman he doesn't know enters stage right.

There names are both ANONYMOUS.

If I was arguing with someone who had the guts to put there name in front of their viewpoints, I could respect that, and them. I might not agree, but, hey, you'll have that. And don't tell me your reasons are any more valid than the original poster's. This has been argued heretofore, and you've missed, or ignored it.

Done for now.

logaN

Last edited by MikeLogan : 05-14-2005 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 05-14-2005, 06:57 PM   #50
Zato Ichi
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Walks in, stage left.

Puts up "Do not feed the troll" sign.

Walks out, stage right.
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