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Old 05-14-2005, 09:54 AM   #76
ShugyoSystems
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
Todd, yes I have read it all, and did know that you were planning to go to Joe Sensei's dojo.

I have practiced both with and without hakama, and when I started to practiced without it, it felt strange, but the Aikido was the same, so was the energy and spirit in its practice, just the clothes were different. I think someone mentioned this already, a priest doesn't stop believing in God or being a priest just because they take off their collar.

The one thing I can say that we seem to be differing on, I am quite prepared to accept that I may be wrong.

Regards,
Well I don't think I see the need to differ

Perhaps though, if you wouldn't mind, you could share with me how it was that you dealt with ignoring the founder's wishes regarding hakama in the dojo, thereby breaching the budo code and the values symbolised by the hakama; in particular what enabled you to feel the same spirit in the art? It may help me to do the same, so I'd really appreciate your advice

(This statement of course assumes that you were concerned with OSensei's wishes and the budo code, prior to training minus hakama - if not, then perhaps we will differ after all )

You mentioned "I think someone mentioned this already, a priest doesn't stop believing in God or being a priest just because they take off their collar."

Please see the word on this matter as approved by late Pope John Paul II at http://www.ewtn.com/library/PRIESTS/RMCOLLAR.TXT

The priest's collar is a symbol of his connection to God, and as such it's removal could arguably be considered to be a betrayal of that connection. Likewise, as you can see, the Pope would prefer the collar to be worn, so although removing it may or may not symbolise some level of disrespect towards God, regardless of this, it certainly does represent a lack of concern for the Pope's requests.

I wholeheartedly agree that nothing, hakama included, could separate me from my spiritual beliefs. What you may not realise is that, regardless of his being long passed, and of the varying 'flavours' of Aikido that have grown from the original in time, as far as I am concerned, as the founder of this art which I sincerely believe has saved my life, and therefore the man ultimately responsible for that, and the man to whom I owe that debt, is OSensei, and as such, I choose to honour his word.

If OSensei insisted that all practitioners of the art wore hakama, then I'm inclined to do so. If a priest chooses to go against the word of the Church, then that is his decision, but I am not inclined to follow suit.

The part of this that seems to be overlooked frequently in this thread is that the spiritual matters symbolised by the hakama include loyalty, and that loyalty points to the fact that OSensei would have you wear hakama... It's interlinked and circular, and as such, it becomes very difficult to separate the spiritual values symbolised by hakama and OSensei's wishes... The only ways that I can see the separation to be acceptable are, if OSensei had suggested that there was a situation where not wearing hakama in the dojo was acceptable, if your loyalties do not lie with OSensei, or if your spiritual values do not include the loyalty to your master symbolised by the hakama fold.

If one of the latter two cases apply to you, then surely we will differ in opinion on this matter, and there is most likely little point in posting. However if you can suggest words of OSensei's that would support the first case, then I would greatly appreciate your sharing them with me, that I might serve him in the best manner possible.

Cheers,
Todd
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Old 05-14-2005, 03:31 PM   #77
siwilson
Dojo: Kenshinkai Yoshinkan Aikido
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Todd

You believe in what you believe in, but you kind of missed my point on the clergy. From the link you posted:

"The purpose of this article is to encourage our fellow priests to
wear their collars (and, by analogy, religious to wear their habits).
It goes without saying that there are reasonable and legitimate
exceptions to this rule, such as during sports and recreation, during
one's vacation (in general), while at home with family or in one's
private quarters in the rectory. And, of course, the obligation to
wear clerical clothing ceases during times of violent persecution."

In the times above, when they are not wearing their collar they do not believe any less in God or stop being priests.

Back to topic!

In my old school yudansha wore hakama, in my new school they don't. I hence no longer practice in a hakama. As Michael said, it is so you can see the legs clearly to both learn from for the student, and assess for the teacher. My old school came from Yoshinkan, but our UK head said all yudansha must wear hakama. That said, when teaching certain things I would not wear the hakama to show my legs.

What I said about the spirit in practice was the energy in the dojo, the harmony between the practitioners, the purposeful way of practice, and the focus and determination. I don't mean the magical mumbo-jumbo that gets waffled about.

You talk about your loyalty to O'Sensei, and talking about the various different schools having followed their paths, but still you see that the loyalty should be to O'Sensei. I will not dispute that we should honour and respect the "great teacher", but what about Sokaku Takeda, Takeda Kunitsugu, Takeda Yoshikiyo, Shinra Saburo Yoshimitsu, Prince Tsunemoto and Prince Teijun? Should we be looking for what they said on the matter, and what if they conflicted with what O'Sensei said?

Regards,

Osu!
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Old 05-14-2005, 10:31 PM   #78
ShugyoSystems
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
Todd

You believe in what you believe in, but you kind of missed my point on the clergy. From the link you posted:

"The purpose of this article is to encourage our fellow priests to
wear their collars (and, by analogy, religious to wear their habits).
It goes without saying that there are reasonable and legitimate
exceptions to this rule, such as during sports and recreation, during
one's vacation (in general), while at home with family or in one's
private quarters in the rectory. And, of course, the obligation to
wear clerical clothing ceases during times of violent persecution."

In the times above, when they are not wearing their collar they do not believe any less in God or stop being priests.
What was I saying about being told that I don't understand when the case is that I don't agree? heheheh

I fully understand that a God-loving Priest is God-loving while wearing a collar, while jogging in 45 degree heat in shorts, while sunbathing on Bondi Beach in speedos, while taking a shower or stark naked for that matter. Likewise as I said, nothing, hakama included, could separate me from my spirituality. I don't wear hakama to work (see abovementioned persecution hahahah), I don't wear one riding a bike, I don't wear one while showering, but it does not impact my spirituality.

Aside from violent persecution, which I don't think applies in this case, the quote you reference does not say anything about not wearing the collar while giving a service in the Church. If it did, then your analogy may retain some substance but as it is, the analogy is, well, not analogous to the conversation at hand.

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
Back to topic!

In my old school yudansha wore hakama, in my new school they don't. I hence no longer practice in a hakama. As Michael said, it is so you can see the legs clearly to both learn from for the student, and assess for the teacher. My old school came from Yoshinkan, but our UK head said all yudansha must wear hakama. That said, when teaching certain things I would not wear the hakama to show my legs.
And as I said before, I see the practicality involved and agree that most certainly, some techniques are far more efficiently instructed and learned without the visual obstruction of the hakama. I also said that I am not sure that the physical side of the art should outweigh the spiritual.

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
What I said about the spirit in practice was the energy in the dojo, the harmony between the practitioners, the purposeful way of practice, and the focus and determination. I don't mean the magical mumbo-jumbo that gets waffled about.
OK I think I was talking about magical mumbo-jumbo

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
You talk about your loyalty to O'Sensei, and talking about the various different schools having followed their paths, but still you see that the loyalty should be to O'Sensei. I will not dispute that we should honour and respect the "great teacher", but what about Sokaku Takeda, Takeda Kunitsugu, Takeda Yoshikiyo, Shinra Saburo Yoshimitsu, Prince Tsunemoto and Prince Teijun? Should we be looking for what they said on the matter, and what if they conflicted with what O'Sensei said?

Regards,
I am very interested to learn the position of the Takeda clan et al on this matter, although it is muchly out of curiosity. The nature of my reverence to OSensei is largely as a result of my relation to his stance on 'magical mumbo-jumbo', and as such the stance of such figures as Onisaburo Deguchi and even O'Sensei's Mother (I am embarassed to say I do not remember her name) would also be poignant to some extent. That said, it remains that it is OSensei who brought together the numerous factors that became Aikido and it is OSensei who my alliances lay with when it comes to Aikido training.
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Old 05-15-2005, 08:37 AM   #79
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Dare I upset the apple cart and mention at this point that in most Yoshinkan schools, the master you'd probably hear about is Gozo Shioda (or Kancho Sensei as a lot of Yoshinkan people tend to call him), and not O'Sensei ?
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Old 05-15-2005, 09:35 AM   #80
siwilson
Dojo: Kenshinkai Yoshinkan Aikido
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Todd Worth wrote:
I am very interested to learn the position of the Takeda clan et al on this matter, although it is muchly out of curiosity. The nature of my reverence to OSensei is largely as a result of my relation to his stance on 'magical mumbo-jumbo', and as such the stance of such figures as Onisaburo Deguchi and even O'Sensei's Mother (I am embarassed to say I do not remember her name) would also be poignant to some extent. That said, it remains that it is OSensei who brought together the numerous factors that became Aikido and it is OSensei who my alliances lay with when it comes to Aikido training.
Ah, so you actually want to practice Omoto Kyo Aiki!!!!

Really, Aikido is an off shoot of Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, just as Yoshinkan, Tomiki Ryu etc. are off shoots of Uyeshiba Ryu Aiki Budo as forms of Aikido/Aiki Jujutsu.

The lineage of our martial art does not simply go back to Uyeshiba Sensei and stop there. Aikido's roots lie in the 9th Century. After all, the Aiki system of techniques originated with Prince Teijun of the Minamoto family.

BTW, follow the link below. The Uyeshiba family disagree with you as their students don't wear hakama!

Aikikai Academy

Hmmm!

Also, Stuart, I don't think that is fair. Yes Kancho is where we look to in our teachings, but his Aikido came from O'Sensei, and O'Sensei's photo hangs in our dojo.

Regards,

Osu!
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Old 05-15-2005, 06:01 PM   #81
stuartjvnorton
 
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Freaky! Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
Also, Stuart, I don't think that is fair. Yes Kancho is where we look to in our teachings, but his Aikido came from O'Sensei, and O'Sensei's photo hangs in our dojo.
I've trained at a couple of Yoshinkan dojo and been to a few seminars in the last 7 years, and rarely do I hear about O'Sensei. Kancho Sensei, on the other hand, I hear a fair bit about.

It just seems that there is a whole lot posted here about "O'Sensei this, hakama that" when there should possilby be a little more "Just get in there and train. See how you like the place and go from there."
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Old 05-15-2005, 07:18 PM   #82
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Stuart Norton wrote:
Dare I upset the apple cart and mention at this point that in most Yoshinkan schools, the master you'd probably hear about is Gozo Shioda (or Kancho Sensei as a lot of Yoshinkan people tend to call him), and not O'Sensei ?
Stuart...upseeting apple carts is bad for the digestion

I was also wondering where it was written/commanded/suggested (and it might be..I just haven't seen it) by Ueshiba M. that hakama be worn in the dojo. I believe that Kancho Sensei had the highest respect for his instructor and would be surprised to find he had changed that, especially since he had ties to the Ueshiba family and Aikikai until the end of this life.

Just a thought...more apples rolling <wry grin>

cheers,

--Michael

-

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 05-15-2005, 09:55 PM   #83
eyrie
 
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

It's been done to death on this forum.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1445
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142

Ignatius
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Old 05-16-2005, 03:00 AM   #84
ShugyoSystems
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Stuart Norton wrote:
It just seems that there is a whole lot posted here about "O'Sensei this, hakama that" when there should possilby be a little more "Just get in there and train. See how you like the place and go from there."
Didn't I already respond to that line of thought?

Tell me, does this thread have the topic "Help change my mind!" or "Help me find a dojo in Melbourne!" ? This is getting a little tiring....
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Old 05-16-2005, 03:05 AM   #85
ShugyoSystems
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
Stuart...upseeting apple carts is bad for the digestion

I was also wondering where it was written/commanded/suggested (and it might be..I just haven't seen it) by Ueshiba M. that hakama be worn in the dojo. I believe that Kancho Sensei had the highest respect for his instructor and would be surprised to find he had changed that, especially since he had ties to the Ueshiba family and Aikikai until the end of this life.

Just a thought...more apples rolling <wry grin>

cheers,

--Michael

-
Yeh well from what I gather Shioda Sensei held O'Sensei in very high esteem. Likewise as to the issue of the Ueshiba family losing the hakama, it is unclear why this has been done. I'd LOVE to know, despite the fact that I'm not sure that the answer to this question would change my perspective on the situation....
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Old 05-16-2005, 03:07 AM   #86
ShugyoSystems
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
Ah, so you actually want to practice Omoto Kyo Aiki!!!!
Well honestly yeh I am very interested in it, but I'm not sure yet. I don't know enough about it I'm on my way there....

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
Really, Aikido is an off shoot of Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, just as Yoshinkan, Tomiki Ryu etc. are off shoots of Uyeshiba Ryu Aiki Budo as forms of Aikido/Aiki Jujutsu.

The lineage of our martial art does not simply go back to Uyeshiba Sensei and stop there. Aikido's roots lie in the 9th Century. After all, the Aiki system of techniques originated with Prince Teijun of the Minamoto family.
Thanks for the info but I did know that. I used to train Hapkido which is an offshoot of aikijujutsu too, that's actually how I found out about aikido, studying the arts... Of course you can trace it all the way back through China to India, and arguably African plains too. Likewise for the spiritual stuff... But this particular mix that I am so attracted to is AIkido, and as I said, "it remains that it is OSensei who brought together the numerous factors that became Aikido and it is OSensei who my alliances lay with when it comes to Aikido training"

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
BTW, follow the link below. The Uyeshiba family disagree with you as their students don't wear hakama!

Aikikai Academy

Hmmm!
Hmmm indeed. I'm aware of this too. They actually stopped wearing hakama during O'Sensei's living years.
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Old 05-16-2005, 07:45 AM   #87
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Todd Worth wrote:
Didn't I already respond to that line of thought?

Tell me, does this thread have the topic "Help change my mind!" or "Help me find a dojo in Melbourne!" ? This is getting a little tiring....

Couldn't agree more.

I never claimed that Kancho Sensei (or anyone else for that matter) didn't have a ton of respect for O'Sensei.
It is however stated that your allegience is to O'Sensei first and foremost in regards to your Aikido training, and my point was that his beliefs/values are practised more in some styles than others.

So this is something you should be mindful of to avoid future frustration in your chosen dojo.

So once again, best of luck in finding a dojo that satisfies your needs.
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Old 05-16-2005, 11:40 AM   #88
siwilson
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Todd Worth wrote:
Hmmm indeed. I'm aware of this too. They actually stopped wearing hakama during O'Sensei's living years.
So O'Sensei changed his mind about the hakama, yet you ignore his wishes from his later life?

Osu!
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Old 05-17-2005, 02:16 AM   #89
ShugyoSystems
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
So O'Sensei changed his mind about the hakama, yet you ignore his wishes from his later life?
No.... There's no evidence available to support the concept that this was his decision, in fact, the opposite is the case. Read the links earlier from this thread and you'll see what I mean... But that's the tip of the iceberg. ...


Still trying to change my mind?
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Old 05-17-2005, 02:17 AM   #90
ShugyoSystems
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Stuart Norton wrote:
Couldn't agree more.

I never claimed that Kancho Sensei (or anyone else for that matter) didn't have a ton of respect for O'Sensei.
It is however stated that your allegience is to O'Sensei first and foremost in regards to your Aikido training, and my point was that his beliefs/values are practised more in some styles than others.

So this is something you should be mindful of to avoid future frustration in your chosen dojo.

So once again, best of luck in finding a dojo that satisfies your needs.
I know, you said he had lots of repect for O'Sensei and I agreed with you... Crikey aren't we in defense mode!

Yeh your point was taken... That's the whole issue here ...

Thanks for the wellwishes

Todd
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Old 05-17-2005, 02:51 AM   #91
siwilson
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Todd Worth wrote:
Still trying to change my mind?
Nope. That is impossible! Only you can change your mind, all others can do is inform your decision.

Osu!
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