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Old 05-11-2005, 06:41 AM   #51
ShugyoSystems
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
way too much whining and pickiness going on here for a self-professed aiki-junkie.

Oh yeh, and of course, I'm the only one mentioned... Why would that be? Because I correct people misquoting me? Because I explain myself to people who misunderstand me in an attempt to avoid argument based on misgivings? Because I stand up for my beliefs, the same beliefs that originated from our founder? Because I stand up for the founder almost all of us bow to a few times a week?

I have to be honest, If you want to hear a whine, if you'd like to learn the difference between conversation and a gripe, where I speak with the full knowledge that I will cause a disturbance (despite that I do so in an attempt to bring greater respect to our art and it's founder), how about this one:

I can't believe that so many people on here were willing to sit by and let Ignatius disrespect OSensei in such a manner. I think you're all gutless.

What happened to Loyalty to your Master?

To throw out the previous importance of the Hakama for practical reasons is one thing (I will digress from this matter temporarily for your benefit), but to speak of the man who has brought so much good to all of our lives in such a disrespectful manner is absolutely unacceptable, regardless of any supposed delusion of enlightenment and allusion to the wonders of detachment from the physical. Detachment does not mean throwing things to the wind without reason. No-mind does not mean that one should allow themselves to be struck down by an enemy while knowing that your defeat will not come to any gain.

The tacet condonation of this disgusting display of disrespect makes me question the moral fibre and motives for training of each and every member of this board. Why in heck am I the only one who thought that was well out of order? Perhaps you're trying to keep the peace? But is it right to do so at the expense of our late Master's honour?

Now THAT is a gripe!
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Old 05-11-2005, 06:50 AM   #52
eyrie
 
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

"Disrespect" - by whose standards? Yours?

Ignatius
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Old 05-11-2005, 07:28 AM   #53
ShugyoSystems
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Disrespect is disrespect.

How was what you said in any way respectful?
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Old 05-11-2005, 07:33 AM   #54
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I walked away because you seem intent on pressing the point, and besides, I had to leave to go to training. But I am glad you had a laugh over it.

Why not? Because it is an imperfect world with each dojo having their own rules and rituals. I believe mudansha in Michael Field's dojo do wear a hakama, but it did not meet your other criteria.

I understand where you're coming from, but if neither are as important and unimportant, why do you insist on pressing the point?

FWIW, my personal expression is simply that - mine. Not something I impose on my students. Some of my students wear a black gi to training because it is the only thing they can afford.

Does that make me a heretic? Does that make me less serious or passionate about my training? If I don't bow to an image of the old man, does that make me less respectful?
Pressing the point? If you don't want to respond, then don't; but don't respond by misquoting me and twisting my words to support your standpoint, and then complain that I'm pressing the point, when the point you're making implies mistruth about me and I'm just trying to set the facts straight. If I told a lie on your behalf, I'm sure you'd pipe up. You are piping up, repeatedly. Does that mean you're "pressing the point"?

Mudansha at Field's do not wear hakama I am afraid, or at least that is what I was told when I visited...

I continue to discuss this and to correct you on your misquotes etc (you call it pressing the point) because it is important to me that you do not think of me, that which is not true. In case you haven't noticed, while we've been rabbiting on, I have otherwise been moving on in the discussion, from a matter of finding the perfect dojo, to accepting that it does not exist, to discussing the spiritual ramifications and whether to sacrifice the physical, or the spiritual, or both, would be the best course of action, given that sacrificing neither is an impossibility.

I'm not pressing the point mate, I'm moving on, and in the meantime, I'm setting the facts straight.

I see what you mean about "it is an imperfect world with each dojo having their own rules and rituals", but does that mean that it HAS to be that way? Of course not. So is it such a bad thing to try to improve the situation? Is accepting things the way that they are, if they could be better, being non-attached, or being complacent?

Me, I'm inclined to try and do something about the things I see around me that could be improved. That is the way our samurai forefathers would have done it, or else they would not have carried swords. If you choose to discard those beliefs, then so be it. But it seems to me you're fence-sitting.

"FWIW, my personal expression is simply that - mine. Not something I impose on my students. Some of my students wear a black gi to training because it is the only thing they can afford.

Does that make me a heretic? Does that make me less serious or passionate about my training?"

Lord, no! That makes you compassionate! I applaude it. I already said that I understand that in some cases wearing hakama is too much to ask. I'm sure that if hakama cost nothing you'd probably hand them out for free.

As for "If I don't bow to an image of the old man, does that make me less respectful?"

To him? Yes. He has given you so much.
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Old 05-11-2005, 07:39 AM   #55
eyrie
 
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

For your information, and to set the record straight, I do not bow to a picture of O'Sensei because I do not have a picture of him, one large enough or decent enough to display. If I had one, I would pay my respects as much as any other. The point is, I don't need one to remind me that I need to be respectful of the fact, nor does it lessen my respect in any way.

Ignatius
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Old 05-11-2005, 07:59 AM   #56
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
For your information, and to set the record straight, I do not bow to a picture of O'Sensei because I do not have a picture of him, one large enough or decent enough to display. If I had one, I would pay my respects as much as any other. The point is, I don't need one to remind me that I need to be respectful of the fact, nor does it lessen my respect in any way.
So in one post you call O'Sensei a dead-head, and refer to that which he held to be of high spiritual value, as a "simple" matter and a "damn skirt", and now you say that you do hold respect for him?

I always live by the ideal that I should not say something behind someone's back that I would not say to their face.

You said to me in private that you didn't mean any disrespect to him by referring to him as a dead-head, but I wonder if you honestly can say that you don't think he would be offended if you were to say such a thing to his face?

Judging by your words, your intentions are good, you don't seem to mean any ill intent judging by some of your words, and yet your actions do not seem to always reflect those intentions.

I see what you mean about the internal spiritualism, but why does the internal spiritualism conflict with your external actions?
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Old 05-11-2005, 08:12 AM   #57
eyrie
 
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Because I wasn't specifically referring to him... I was referring to MA in general, and in particular to the cultish mentality of elevating dead founders to "God-like" status.

C'mon Todd, lighten up.... I don't think there is any conflict. Perhaps my choice of words could have been better, and I apologize if it offended your sensitivities.

Last edited by eyrie : 05-11-2005 at 08:25 AM.

Ignatius
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Old 05-11-2005, 08:19 AM   #58
Arjan
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

I just read the entire thread and a curious thought just struck me...

In my dojo, only people that are an example for the group (be that in Aikido-skills, or by persisting in training despite a serious physical handicap) wear a hakama. I don't wear one, which is perfectly fine with me, I don't feel like a lesser person because of it.

I can imagine that things in Japan in the early 1900's were different and everybody wore a hakama. But then, I see quite some more differences with back then...

Did they search the internet to supplement their training in the dojo with more information, discussing things with people online from the other side of the planet? Did they have many 6"6' guys with blues eyes 'round? Did they have the fancy rimless glasses I wear? Or the red beach slippers I use for the part between the locker rooms and the tatami, for lack of an alternative (try finding slippers in Holland in winter... ) And my classes are in Dutch, taught by a Dutch guy, that doesn't seem to be very authentic... And there's a lot more...

Do all these diferences inhibit me to enjoy Aikido to the fullest, or to be as spiritual as I want to be? Don't think so: circumstances change, attributes change, clothing changes, but the core is still the same. And for me, that's what counts.

Just my opinion though, don't want to insult anyone that feels more strongly about the traditional side.

Arjan
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Old 05-11-2005, 08:40 AM   #59
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Because I wasn't specifically referring to him... I was referring to MA in general, and in particular to the cultish mentality which elevate dead founders to "God-like" status.

C'mon Todd, lighten up.... I don't think there is any conflict. Perhaps my choice of words could have been better, and I apologize if it offend your sensitivities.
Thanks for your apology...

But I did ask you earlier if you were talking about OSensei and although you didn't outright admit it, you certainly didn't deny it... Maybe it's only due to the precedent set by the previous conversation, but it seems like a convenient change of tack... Only you know for sure though, so I can't make any more comment than to state my own impression.

Anyway, that "cultish mentality" is known by some as a part of the Budo code... Live it or not, that's a chat for another time, I just wanted help from those who would help me to live it.
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Old 05-11-2005, 08:41 AM   #60
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Arjan Stavast wrote:
I just read the entire thread and a curious thought just struck me...

In my dojo, only people that are an example for the group (be that in Aikido-skills, or by persisting in training despite a serious physical handicap) wear a hakama. I don't wear one, which is perfectly fine with me, I don't feel like a lesser person because of it.

I can imagine that things in Japan in the early 1900's were different and everybody wore a hakama. But then, I see quite some more differences with back then...

Did they search the internet to supplement their training in the dojo with more information, discussing things with people online from the other side of the planet? Did they have many 6"6' guys with blues eyes 'round? Did they have the fancy rimless glasses I wear? Or the red beach slippers I use for the part between the locker rooms and the tatami, for lack of an alternative (try finding slippers in Holland in winter... ) And my classes are in Dutch, taught by a Dutch guy, that doesn't seem to be very authentic... And there's a lot more...

Do all these diferences inhibit me to enjoy Aikido to the fullest, or to be as spiritual as I want to be? Don't think so: circumstances change, attributes change, clothing changes, but the core is still the same. And for me, that's what counts.

Just my opinion though, don't want to insult anyone that feels more strongly about the traditional side.

Arjan
You read the whole thing? Crikey mate, your eyes must need a rest heheheh

Sorry 'bout all the static. I really didn't mean to kick all that off

In Dutch, in slippers and rimless specs, done by us whiteys, enhanced by modern communications, I don't think necessarily detracts from the art. I don't think that the land and time you were born in should stop you from learning the wonders of AiKi, and I doubt that OSensei would feel that way, from what little of him I can learn from books and other media...

But I do feel that to discard our loyalty to OSensei's wishes and the traditions put in place to encourage and uphold a positive movement of people could be detrimental.. And that's the difference to me.

Let me assure you that the day I find that OSensei would have been offended by the concept of an Australian studying his art, his way, will be the day that I respect those wishes and quit.
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Old 05-11-2005, 09:07 AM   #61
eyrie
 
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

I hope you're not calling me a liar!

I see no point in nitpicking what I said, or your of interpretation what I said. I'm going to let it slide. Heck, call me complacent, but at this hour, I'm in no mood for it.

Seriously, whether you believe it or not, I am trying to help. Short of me saying that I don't think you're going to find the perfect dojo, and good luck going into someone else's dojo and trying to change their rites and rituals? No, I'm not going to. (Oops!)

Nor am I am going to get into the argument of displaced cultural traditions which no longer exist even in the parent country, only in the hearts and minds of the few.

I wish you well on your search and your journey for perfection. Perhaps you should take your credentials to a dojo and ask if they will recognize it. Shihan Jan de Jong's name is well known, I'm sure you will be most welcome to train at most dojo. Maybe go easy on the hakama issue, lest you receive a less than welcome response.

If you happen to be this side of Queensland, you are most welcome to come train with me in my dojo, with your hakama, but do bring a picture of O'Sensei that we can hang on the wall...

PS: Don't mean to burst your bubble, but one of O'Sensei's books written in the 1930's was published with the specific caeveat from him, that the material therein was "not to be shown to non-Japanese". I guess that means, some of us are in a lot of trouble with the man.

Last edited by eyrie : 05-11-2005 at 09:20 AM.

Ignatius
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Old 05-11-2005, 09:01 PM   #62
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Just a quick point that may or may not be relevant. I think it fits in the thread, but then again, I may be wrong.

I have heard that at times that the hakama was worn with the intention of hiding the art underneath. The skills were passed down through family lines and hakama were one way of hiding how techniques were done.

An additional thought is that I have also heard that uchideshi would pay Ueshiba Sensei to be his uke in demonstrations so that they could feel the technique and learn from it, since they couldn't see what he was doing under the hakama. One thing that this did was make sons of families with money the more skilled uchideshi...

Anyway...just a thought.

cheers,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 05-11-2005, 09:04 PM   #63
maikerus
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Todd Worth wrote:
Now, I am strongly tempted to at the very least visit Thambu Sensei's dojo, because, to be direct, to make the call that it lacks spirituality without actually having seen it for myself is somewhat 'shooting off at the mouth'.
Hi Todd,

Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.

cheers,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 05-11-2005, 11:39 PM   #64
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
Hi Todd,

Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.

cheers,

--Michael
Thanks mate

It would not surprise me greatly if he's heard nasty rumours of some guy picking bones with his school on some website somewhere... Hope he's open-minded

I'll certainly post here just to let it be known what the official stance on this matter is from his school.

Cheers!
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Old 05-12-2005, 12:02 AM   #65
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
Just a quick point that may or may not be relevant. I think it fits in the thread, but then again, I may be wrong.

I have heard that at times that the hakama was worn with the intention of hiding the art underneath. The skills were passed down through family lines and hakama were one way of hiding how techniques were done.

An additional thought is that I have also heard that uchideshi would pay Ueshiba Sensei to be his uke in demonstrations so that they could feel the technique and learn from it, since they couldn't see what he was doing under the hakama. One thing that this did was make sons of families with money the more skilled uchideshi...

Anyway...just a thought.

cheers,

--Michael
Ah the might bl**dy dollar

I've also heard those stories, and also that the reason the samurai kept the hakama around was to help them to win in battle by masking movement, and similar stuff...

I must agree that, to argue that the hakama does not hide leg movement seems foolish. Sure, to the very trained and experienced eye, the folds open in certain ways when moving in certain ways... And to the spiritually trained the intentions of the enemy are advertised clearly... But to most eyes, heck, you might as well be hiding behind a chunk of drywall
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Old 05-12-2005, 01:47 AM   #66
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Hello Todd,

Thanks for the reply. Did you look up David Brown sensei? I found out a bit more and he teaches from a dojo in Clifton Gardens. He is an Aikikai affiliate. David Brown was recommended to me by a friend who has done alot of training with the Ki Society. He had an eye opening experience when he trained in Melbourne while there on holiday.

You mentioned earlier that you would prefer a Ki Society dojo but I figure that if you are desperate enough for a fix of Aiki you will train anywhere. I know I would. I hope this is of help to you. All the best with your search for a training hall.

Also, I believe that osensei stated: "Your spirit is your true shield." When we sit within our shield we remain untouched by the verbal/psychic attacks of others. It's all training after all. A strong, sincere attack gives us something good to work with.
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Old 05-13-2005, 12:20 AM   #67
ShugyoSystems
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
Hello Todd,

Thanks for the reply. Did you look up David Brown sensei? I found out a bit more and he teaches from a dojo in Clifton Gardens. He is an Aikikai affiliate. David Brown was recommended to me by a friend who has done alot of training with the Ki Society. He had an eye opening experience when he trained in Melbourne while there on holiday.
Hiya Kristian,

Well it's a funny world full of coincidence... It so happens that the Aikikai Central Dojo in Clifton Hill is one of the first dojo that my g/f and I had visited, and we really enjoyed it. I'm not sure if Brown Sensei still teaches there, however I sincerely hope so, as I have discovered today that he is very involved with shakuhachi (Japanese flute) and I am well into taiko. I'd love to talk with him.

I decided to keep looking after deciding that it was a little small, and the whole hakama issue (hakama? who said that?! ) but it seems that after the conversation here over the last few days, that perhaps I had better take a second look at the school, better educated as to the ways of Melbournio...

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
You mentioned earlier that you would prefer a Ki Society dojo but I figure that if you are desperate enough for a fix of Aiki you will train anywhere. I know I would.
Me? I'd train underwater with concrete pylons chained to my wrists if I could

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
I hope this is of help to you. All the best with your search for a training hall.

Also, I believe that osensei stated: "Your spirit is your true shield." When we sit within our shield we remain untouched by the verbal/psychic attacks of others. It's all training after all. A strong, sincere attack gives us something good to work with.
Well this thought has been a really huge assistance to me, and I've been sitting here all day with this window open trying to figure out how to show my appreciation for it, and I still have no clue. I think that the gist of what you have said here, has shown me a way that I feel that I can continue my training, hakama etc or no hakama etc, and still feel that I am following in O'Sensei's way to the best of my abilities.

Thanks so much Kristian, I really do appreciate this.
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Old 05-13-2005, 12:49 AM   #68
ShugyoSystems
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I hope you're not calling me a liar!

I see no point in nitpicking what I said, or your of interpretation what I said. I'm going to let it slide. Heck, call me complacent, but at this hour, I'm in no mood for it.

Seriously, whether you believe it or not, I am trying to help. Short of me saying that I don't think you're going to find the perfect dojo, and good luck going into someone else's dojo and trying to change their rites and rituals? No, I'm not going to. (Oops!)

Nor am I am going to get into the argument of displaced cultural traditions which no longer exist even in the parent country, only in the hearts and minds of the few.
Good idea!

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I wish you well on your search and your journey for perfection. Perhaps you should take your credentials to a dojo and ask if they will recognize it. Shihan Jan de Jong's name is well known, I'm sure you will be most welcome to train at most dojo. Maybe go easy on the hakama issue, lest you receive a less than welcome response.

If you happen to be this side of Queensland, you are most welcome to come train with me in my dojo, with your hakama, but do bring a picture of O'Sensei that we can hang on the wall...

PS: Don't mean to burst your bubble, but one of O'Sensei's books written in the 1930's was published with the specific caeveat from him, that the material therein was "not to be shown to non-Japanese". I guess that means, some of us are in a lot of trouble with the man.
I should point out that I was not with Jan de Jong for very long... I joined up there after moving from Sydney but shortly afterwards was bitten by the tech-wreck and ran out of cash.... The majority of my training was done in Sydney under a non-affiliated dojo, and in HapKiDo dojang in a few cities (Perth people, there's a great dojang in Freo! HUGE!)

Regarding that book, I think you'll find that Japan was going to war at the time.... Might explain it

Cheers,
Todd
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Old 05-13-2005, 01:06 AM   #69
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Todd,

I'm sorry I was wrong about you wanting to train at Ki Society. I was obviously not concentrating. As to the rest. I'm sure the kami will guide your steps to the best training hall for you .

".....Bravely face whatever the gods offer." as osensei stated.

I'm quoting The Art Of Peace like it's going out of fashion aren't I. It just happens sometimes.
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Old 05-13-2005, 01:10 AM   #70
ShugyoSystems
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
Todd,

I'm sorry I was wrong about you wanting to train at Ki Society. I was obviously not concentrating. As to the rest. I'm sure the kami will guide your steps to the best training hall for you .

".....Bravely face whatever the gods offer." as osensei stated.

I'm quoting The Art Of Peace like it's going out of fashion aren't I. It just happens sometimes.
Ahh, you were right indeed, Ki Society has drawn me to it's particular ways for some time.... But you were also right about me training anywhere So you were correct twice

Hey mate, I can think of far far worse things to quote Quote on, mate!
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Old 05-13-2005, 07:42 AM   #71
siwilson
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Hmmm, this hakama thing is a bit like not joining the Navy because you don't like the uniform.

As for Joe Thambu Sensei, he is one of the best teachers and Aikidoka I have had the pleasure of learning from and landing very hard on the mat from. He has dedicated his entire life to Aikido and any comment such as suggesting that he does not hold as much respect for the hakama as you....! Well, that statement alone shows itself as false, or you would never have made it:

1. JIN (Benevolence)

2. GI (Honour)

3. REI (Courtesy and etiquette)

4. CHI ( Wisdom, Intelligence)

5. SHIN ( Sincerity)

6. CHU (Loyalty)

7. KOH (Piety)

I must admit to being amazed you could even think that!

Osu!
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Old 05-13-2005, 09:13 AM   #72
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
Hmmm, this hakama thing is a bit like not joining the Navy because you don't like the uniform.

As for Joe Thambu Sensei, he is one of the best teachers and Aikidoka I have had the pleasure of learning from and landing very hard on the mat from. He has dedicated his entire life to Aikido and any comment such as suggesting that he does not hold as much respect for the hakama as you....! Well, that statement alone shows itself as false, or you would never have made it:

1. JIN (Benevolence)

2. GI (Honour)

3. REI (Courtesy and etiquette)

4. CHI ( Wisdom, Intelligence)

5. SHIN ( Sincerity)

6. CHU (Loyalty)

7. KOH (Piety)

I must admit to being amazed you could even think that!
Well I'll take it as a compliment that you're amazed that I would think such a thing, because I don't!

Once again...geee this is getting old.... I've been misquoted, and misunderstood. I really don't appreciate this constant string of people twisting my words. I trust that it's just an accident.

I said "he doesn't respect the meaning of the hakama in the way that I and OSensei, and hopefully someone else out there, do."
Saying he doesn't respect it the same way I do does not mean that he does not respect it as much as I do.

As I've also said, there may be some reason that he has not made public, as to why he does not follow in what are widely known to be OSensei's footsteps on this matter, and that I will be making an effort to discuss this with him in an affort to learn from him.

I was referring to the fact that in the eyes of myself and to the best of my knowledge, O'Sensei, the hakama is a must-have on the mat.

1. JIN (Benevolence)
Has been shown by almost everyone on this thread while suggesting certain situations where some aikidoka are not able to wear hakama (from poverty, to postwar materials shortages)

2. GI (Honour)
Honouring OSensei is precisely why I feel the importance of wearing hakama on the mat. Thanks to a quote you can read above, It has been shown to me that if it is not possible to train in hakama, it is still possible to train while honourin OSensei's ways.

3. REI (Courtesy and etiquette)
I have made it clear that I hold no disrespect for Thambu Sensei and have made every attempt to be polite despite the consistent rudeness shown by those attaking me for my beliefs

4. CHI ( Wisdom, Intelligence)
Where's tha lack in wisdom and intelligence here?

5. SHIN ( Sincerity)
I doubt that anyone could accuse me of lacking honesty and sincerity in any of my posts. If anything you might compain that there is too much of it for you to handle?

6. CHU (Loyalty)
Loyalty to OSensei is precisely the point of all this. Loyalty to my fellow Aikidoka is just why I trust this community to help me. Loyalty to the art is precisely why I feel great respect for Thambu Sensei despite never having met the man.

7. KOH (Piety)
Once again Piety is the source of my need for help here. I feel that the removal of the hakama represents the removal of the pious nature of the art and am hoping to find that piety within the dojo available to me.


As for the navy analogy, in fact, you;ve gotten it a little backwards. If, like I, you have a personal history and family heritage of military service, you'll be well aware of the importance placed on the uniform.

If your analogy were adjusted to better represent the situation, it would in fact be that this is a little like not wanting to rejoin the Navy now that they have removed the treasured uniform, the Royal Navy crest, the hard-earned chevrons, the service medals, the crisp whites ironed and starched to crisp creased perfection, the spit-polished boots in which your superior can see his reflection thanks to your hours of work, the ceremonial sword, the specifics such as lining up the belt buckle with the centreline of the pants zipper and the 75cm paces while marching with thumbs pulled down, and replaced it with a pair of old shorts and a t-shirt and a stroll in the park with a beer OK I took it a bit far but you get the idea. You got it backwards!

Still I appreciate your input and thank you for sticking up for Thambu Sensei, despite the fact that you did not need to defend him as he was not being attacked - as each time one of you does so, you further strengthen my realisation that he is obviously a man of great honour which brings his students to respect him greatly.
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Old 05-13-2005, 09:26 AM   #73
siwilson
Dojo: Kenshinkai Yoshinkan Aikido
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 450
England
Offline
Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Joe Sensei is well deserving of all the paise he receives. I still don't like your quote as it reads a certain way. I also do not believe that you respect the hakama in the same way as O'Sensei, as you would need to walk in his shoes through his life to do so.

I hope you can lose you fixation about the hakama, as you can find yourself receiving a wonderful gift in your studies, but to turn away from that gift because of the uniform... well.

I have spent my entire career with the military, but your example seems to point that those who practice without hakama (and I have) are losing the tradition and disipline. "A pair of old shorts and a t-shirt and a stroll in the park with a beer!" You should look further in to the Yoshinkan.

Regards,

Osu!
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Old 05-13-2005, 10:24 AM   #74
ShugyoSystems
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 56
Australia
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Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
Joe Sensei is well deserving of all the paise he receives. I still don't like your quote as it reads a certain way. I also do not believe that you respect the hakama in the same way as O'Sensei, as you would need to walk in his shoes through his life to do so.

I hope you can lose you fixation about the hakama, as you can find yourself receiving a wonderful gift in your studies, but to turn away from that gift because of the uniform... well.

I have spent my entire career with the military, but your example seems to point that those who practice without hakama (and I have) are losing the tradition and disipline. "A pair of old shorts and a t-shirt and a stroll in the park with a beer!" You should look further in to the Yoshinkan.

Regards,
The post reads like it reads mate, if you want to read more into it than what's there than that's your problem. I'm sorry if it bothers you, but if it does, it's because you're reading something I didn't type.

Once again, context is being removed. When I said that I respect the hakama as OSensei does I was referring to the need for it being worn in the dojo, and the reasons for doing so. To state that I know and concur with ALL of OSensei's feelings towards the hakama would surely be foolish as I did not know him personally and did not live his life, but as I have said, by all publically available information which I have been able to obtain, we do concur.

I should also point out that you are negating the possibility of my feeling as OSensei did regarding hakama due to the impossibility of my knowing all of what those feelings are, while yourself being in the same position. If you have not walked in those shoes either, then how can you know that there is a difference between my feelings and OSensei's on the matter? You don;t know my feelings, and you don;t know his, and yet you see fit to draw comparison....

I'm almost positive that OSensei had feelings toward the hakama which few if any others had or will ever have, and I would hesitate to suggest otherwise - However as I said, I was referring to the wearing of the hakama in the dojo and the reasons for doing so being of such importance. If that isn't clear to you then perhaps you'd like to read the thread again.

If you had bothered to read the thread in it's entirety you would be fully aware that I do not have a fixation on tha hakama, or anything to do with a uniform, but on the representation of values or lack thereof depicted by the exclusion of hakama in the dojo.

Also if you care to scroll up a few posts, you will also be aware that I do not plan on turning away from the gift as some more helpful posters have shown me a positive way to blend my own spirit with that of the dojo I am forced to choose from. Nor am I choosing to do anything as a result of the uniform, but am having moral and ethical dilemmas resulting from the fact that the uniform is being toyed with.

You say that "your example seems to point that those who practice without hakama (and I have) are losing the tradition and disipline."

Precisely. That's why I keep talking about it! One point you seemed to miss is that it is not only the hakama but also it's spirtual value that I am concerned with.

And once again, scroll up and you'll find that I am making plans to chat with Thambu Sensei and others, which I believe would constitute "looking further into the yoshinkan"

Hope this clears things up
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Old 05-13-2005, 12:06 PM   #75
siwilson
Dojo: Kenshinkai Yoshinkan Aikido
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 450
England
Offline
Re: Please help me find a dojo in Melbourne!

Todd, yes I have read it all, and did know that you were planning to go to Joe Sensei's dojo.

I have practiced both with and without hakama, and when I started to practiced without it, it felt strange, but the Aikido was the same, so was the energy and spirit in its practice, just the clothes were different. I think someone mentioned this already, a priest doesn't stop believing in God or being a priest just because they take off their collar.

The one thing I can say that we seem to be differing on, I am quite prepared to accept that I may be wrong.

Regards,

Osu!
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