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Old 05-26-2005, 08:21 AM   #151
Tim Gerrard
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

How about if you can justify your actions, and you didn't for example, start beating the guy to a pulp in a rage. If the guy had a knife and you broke his arm, and you could justify this, even if you only thought he had a knife then you would probably be alright. I'm not advocating murdering the poor sod, but use your common sense, reasonable force is what you consider nessecary to save your life. You would be arrested and interviewed, to make sure the loose ends ie. You and your attacker, are available , but as long as your actions were 'honourable' then you wouldn't be seen as the guilty party. After this it goes into the hands of soliciters and way over my head. I'm not an average bobby on the beat, but would Military Police suffice?

Last edited by Tim Gerrard : 05-26-2005 at 08:23 AM.

Aikido doesn't work? My Aikido works, what on earth are you practicing?!
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Old 05-26-2005, 08:24 AM   #152
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Law and self defense

Quote:
Richard Player wrote:
would this be acceptable i wonder in court?
I can only tell you about the Swedish law on self defense, but I imagine that it is not that very different from other countries.

There is no law for every specific situation, of course, so it has to be settled by a court. The directive on self defense in Swedish law is that the violence used should not be "obviously indefendable" (I am not sure that I find the best English words for it, but you get the picture).
So, if someone pokes you in the chest, you can't respond with an elbow to his chin. On the other hand, if five persons attack you, I bet that a Swedish court would allow you any unarmed defense.
If someone attacks you with a knife (to stick to the thing most frequently discussed in this thread), you can also do pretty much what you like.

A Swedish court will not consider your Martial arts experience, since that is almost impossible to do to any certainty, and seldom relevant. They will try to consider how scared you were, at the attack - when scared you are entitled to some extra violence, so to speak, simply because it is hard to balance it.
The one who claims not to have been scared at all, but gives the court the impression of having been on top of the situation - he or she will also be expected to have used a balanced and appropriate level of violence.

Police in Sweden are bound by a much more restrictive law, stating that their violence must be "obviously defendable". They are never allowed any excessive force. I don't envy them...

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 05-26-2005, 09:26 AM   #153
Randathamane
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Re: techniquies in street fights

getting back to the point.......

I think that we can all agree that it is how it falls in a street fight- there is no set technique for a given situation and even if there was, it does not necessarily have to be followed.

Having been in a few scraps / knocks/ brawls or whatever you lot want to call it and taking a sit down to reflect the past 3ish years of aikido- i can see where it would go. Not full on techniques per say, some of the basic movements to get you out the way and exploit a more advantageous position,but if the opportunity arose for a technique, you could take it.

in my opinion, initiative is important, and as you do not know the attack that is going to be performed before it is actually performed, you must endeavor to steal it whenever possible, taking the battle to the enemy (atemi) or by forcing them to react although this is harder. I have always been told that those who have the initiative have the advantage as they control the pace, location and setup of battle and can possibly lure others into second intention attacks (some boast about 3rd or 4th intention but i don't think one can plan that far...). Initiative is not the end all however but it does give the combatant the edge.

In a nutshell- everything has its place, and a place and time for everything. The hard part is locating and identifying that time. it is how it falls as sensei smith is always telling me.



Good against remotes are one thing- good against the living, thats somthing else....
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Old 05-26-2005, 10:38 AM   #154
CNYMike
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Jakob Blomquist wrote:
Someone else who has trained aikido for a couple of years or less thinks that same person write a load of rubbish about same things, since they seem to have figured this thing called aikido so well within this time....
Don't know about that someone. But someone else who has done Aikido for a couple of years will admit he hasn't figured it out, but will speek based on related things he's learned in other arts, and based on that, will say that something is rubish.
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Old 05-26-2005, 03:24 PM   #155
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
In the moment, Who Cares? You have 10 guys ganging up on you, break the first five I say. Then the next five will have something to consider...You don't like being kicked...don't gang up on someone. You don't like being broken...same thing.

Ron (priorities, priorities...deal with the court later)

Amazing!!! That's probably the greatest and most down to earth thing I've heard anyone say on this website!!!
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Old 05-27-2005, 07:59 AM   #156
Ron Tisdale
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
Amazing!!! That's probably the greatest and most down to earth thing I've heard anyone say on this website!!!


Uh, thanks, I think...

Best,

Ron (it always pisses me off when I remember those injustices from my youth)

PS may they always be the worst thing I have to deal with...

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-28-2005, 07:39 PM   #157
Ketsan
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Re: Alex

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote:
I thank Alex for giving his Martial arts background and more, although nobody had the right to demand it of him.

Alex, all through this thread I have been impressed by your decent writing, even when treated quite disrespectfully by others, and I have found your views interesting and quite reasonable.

I am significantly older than you, and I have done aikido significantly longer than you have - actually longer than you have lived. Still, I read your writing on this thread with interest and respect.
If your sensei would care to ask me about it, I would most definitely say that you do not embarrass him at all - quite the contrary. I would be most delighted to have a student like you.

Some may think that the above disqualifies me as an aikido teacher, altogether. I can live with that
Cool thanks, much appreciated.
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Old 05-28-2005, 08:18 PM   #158
Ketsan
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Re: Alex

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
And "....guns are good but knifes, swords anything which resembles a tooth is better,...." would be a reasonable opinion?

I'm afraid that we would have to differ on this.
Well it's a pretty well known hypothesis in pyschology. People can appreciate that a knife is dangerous because like a tooth of a preditor it's sharp, therefore all cultures have a fear of knives if threatened with them, in the same way that all cultures fear animals with big sharp teeth. Guns are a different matter. If you find a group of people that have never seen a gun, like say, a tribe in the Amazon, you can wave guns around in their face all day long and they wont mind because they have no concept of what a gun is or how it could be dangerous, there's nothing inherently threatening about a gun unless you have the right schemas in place.
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Old 05-29-2005, 04:06 PM   #159
Adam Alexander
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Liam Smith wrote:
would Shomenuchi Eacheo irimi work in a street fight? Would the attacker attack shomenuchi? Or would he just punch or kick? Or would this happen to you ? seeing as im a yellow belt please excuse my stupid\ignorant questions
Alright, I'm a "Johnny-come-lately," but, of the ten or so posts I read, I didn't see a similar response...Here's my two cents...

In "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" the authors categorize the types of attacks Aikido deals with. The three hand strikes we use are comparable (according to them--I agree) to any strike that can be delivered from the upper-body.

Further, used as a strike, shomen-uchi is effective...particularly while yelling "hi-yaa."

Finally, people will attack with shomen-uchi. In the back of Gozo Shioda's book "Dynamic Aikido" he show's a demonstration of it. (someone did respond similar to this with "depends on what they're attacking with.)
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Old 05-30-2005, 12:05 PM   #160
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Smart peope will not attack with Shomenuchi. Maybe a manifestation of it, but the techniques will come in an attack chain that is fast and overwhelming, not cooperative, or telegraphed.

I see shomenuchi more as a training tool to demonstrate principles.

It is not so much "what they attack with" but "what you respond with". Shomenuchi can teach you the correct ways to develop instincts that are appropriate given a direction and position of the attack. I'd worry not so much about the attack, but your response hopefully proactive and not reactive, but sometimes you don't have a choice.
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Old 05-30-2005, 04:50 PM   #161
DustinAcuff
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Re: techniquies in street fights

I'm no expert in Aikido attacks...but shomenuchi is a diagonal hand strike that comes from overhead right?
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Old 05-31-2005, 12:42 PM   #162
Adam Alexander
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Re: techniquies in street fights

"shomenuchi is a diagonal hand strike that comes from overhead right?"

Depends on your perspective. It's a front-strike.

K.L.,

I agree. However, my post was directed only to the original post.
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Old 05-31-2005, 01:41 PM   #163
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Got it...sorry for the misunderstanding!
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Old 06-14-2005, 06:32 PM   #164
Tubig
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Re: techniquies in street fights

In Australia If one gets their dan grade, we are registered with the government and are considered a weapon. Hence our aiki can be used against us in a court of law unfortunately.

A lot of my brethren in aiki are jusst staying in their brown belt because of that law.
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Old 06-14-2005, 11:07 PM   #165
Drew Scott
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Cromwell Salvatera wrote:
In Australia If one gets their dan grade, we are registered with the government and are considered a weapon. Hence our aiki can be used against us in a court of law unfortunately.

A lot of my brethren in aiki are jusst staying in their brown belt because of that law.
I've heard that this procedure exists in the US, but I have been unsuccessful in finding any information about such registration procedures at the federal, state, or local level. I find the concept of legally defining an individual's potential to inflict harm (or responsibility to avoid doing so) based on their rank within a martial arts organization fascinating and daunting, and I'd love to know what your legal eagles managed to come up with. I would be very grateful if you would post either the text of, or a link to, the relevant laws.

Regards,
Drew
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Old 06-28-2005, 07:02 PM   #166
Jiraiya
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Re: techniquies in street fights

hmm...I've never been in a fight . But...if its a street fight, guess you have to be prepared for anything. I do have reservations-I feel that no one will really attack "perfectly" . Like no one will really do a nice shomen uchi or yokomen uchi like they do in the dojo.

I feel that what occurs in the dojo is just practise for the real thing. Its how you use it and go with the situation in the streets-I think jiyu waza was created for this purpose. The sad truth is the more experience with "real situations" you have, the better you get in your MA be it aikido or otherwise. (Unless we're talking oyama karate, muay thai and JKD...hee )
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Old 07-01-2005, 02:16 PM   #167
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
I feel that what occurs in the dojo is just practise for the real thing. Its how you use it and go with the situation in the streets-I think jiyu waza was created for this purpose. The sad truth is the more experience with "real situations" you have, the better you get in your MA be it aikido or otherwise. (Unless we're talking oyama karate, muay thai and JKD...hee )
I would disagree with you as far as my experiences in aikido dojo. It does not do a good job of preparing you for a "real fight". I don't believe jiyu waza was created for this purpose either. Aikido is a DO art and as such it is designed to teach you principles. Those principle can be transferred into techniques that can be used in a real fight, but it is not the same thing as "preparing you for a real fight".

I won't assume to know really why jiyu waza was created at my experience level, but I will say from my experiences, that it does not prepare you for a fight. For me, it helped me transfer the principles and habits i learned into instincts. That certainly is a step closer to being prepared for a real fight, but far from why we focus on it, IMHO.

You are correct, no one will attack perfectly. As such no one will defend perfectly either. There are things you must learn or do to compensate for the "imperfect" situation you end up in.

I would also disagree with the statement "the more experience with "real situations" you have, the better you get in your MA". I have found the inverse to be true, at least in regards to Aikido.

In "real situations" as you stated, you are not perfect in your attack. Therefore, you cannot learn good technique and it is difficult to learn the principles. (at least as far as aikido is concerned). "realistic training" can amplify your bad habits, and reinforce them.

Can we train more realistically. yes there are ways to do that, but even they are done in a controlled matter. However, I believe when you enter this realm, you will find that you are doing something other than aikido and are missing the point of why aikido (a DO or WAY Art) was created.

The principles of aikido are universal in nature, but aikido as a methodology does not make for a good way to train for street fighitng or self defense if that is your cup of tea, and training for this does not make for good aikido.
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Old 07-01-2005, 07:07 PM   #168
L. Camejo
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Can we train more realistically. yes there are ways to do that, but even they are done in a controlled matter. However, I believe when you enter this realm, you will find that you are doing something other than aikido and are missing the point of why aikido (a DO or WAY Art) was created.
Of course it depends on how one tries too define Do or Jutsu. I don't think the 2 can be easily or rigidly separated (or should be). Imho there is no reason why the Do of any art can't or shouldn't embody the precise science and technical understanding of the Jutsu. The thread linked to here - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4147 -addresses this question. I don't believe the Do can be removed from the Jutsu without either element negatively affecting the progress of the other. As such, practicing a Do art should in no way hinder one's evolution in understanding the practical, utilitarian and technical scientific aspects that also make up the Do, which includes practical self defence training. Of course if SD is one's ONLY goal, then there are faster and better ways to achieve this, but one should not assume that this sort of training is neglected simply because the name of the art ends in "Do".

Just my thoughts.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 07-02-2005, 05:32 PM   #169
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

agree Larry. However, the main focus of the DO arts is not "realistic training" or "training for street fighting". That is why we don't typically practice fast "boxing" skills, or Muay Thai kicking skills in aikido.

Certainly the aspects are there, however, the emphasis is on developing you internally, not externally, which, IMHO, affects things quite dramatically.
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Old 07-02-2005, 07:02 PM   #170
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I would also disagree with the statement "the more experience with "real situations" you have, the better you get in your MA". I have found the inverse to be true, at least in regards to Aikido.
I agree to a certain extent. It wont improve your technical skills or understanding but it will place your training in context and prepare you better for the next time you get into trouble.
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Old 07-02-2005, 07:10 PM   #171
L. Camejo
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

I guess it depends on the manifestations of the DO that one experiences then.

Imho the only difference lies in what the primary focus is placed upon as indicated above. However imho there is no reason why one who practices the Do cannot embody the degree of applied technical knowledge (or more) that is existent in the Jutsu while still cultivating the inner aspects. Development in one does not mean that there cannot be development in the other. In fact I'd hazard to say that if one is not seeking to understand the Jutsu then the Do is sadly lacking in something that is pivotal to one's developoment in it. Maybe this is why some methods of Aikido are failing as both Do and Jutsu.

As far as "street fighting" or "realistic" training is concerned, no MA addresses that fully imho, whether Jutsu or not. Certainly the emphasis may be there, but there are many many aspects of "reality" that are never addressed in the dojo of any partiicular style of Martial Art. It may create a good fighter, but that is only one small part of "reality" training imho.

Just some thoughts.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 07-02-2005, 07:51 PM   #172
eyrie
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Well said Larry! Well said!

Ignatius
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Old 07-03-2005, 05:19 AM   #173
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

totally agree Larry!
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