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Old 05-24-2005, 12:20 PM   #101
Matt Molloy
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Re: Tantodori no different

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote:
For what it's worth: I agree with Alex.
Aikido is constructed to work against sword, knife and stuff in between. Do your aikido correctly, and the knife is dealt with.
With reservation for the same old probability law I have mentioned before.

It is interesting to notice that anyone who does not support this above strategy (or possibility) seems to say only: if you face a knife, you're done for.
That's no doubt the very worst strategy
Nobody on this thread has been saying that if you face a knife you're done for. Several people who do know what they are talking about have been saying respect the knife. Appreciate that it does change things.

Several people have said that you can deal with a knife as if it were an empty hand and that it wouldn't make any difference but psychological.

This is rubbish. The empty hand can't cut with a touch as light as a caress. The empty hand can't stab and leave a deep wound.

Anybody who is skilled with a knife can not only tell you why it would make a difference but show you too. To use empty hand technique against a knife is a last resort. (I believe that Mike has already made this point.)

It's all reminiscient of times that I've heard Aikidoka confidently say that they could deal with a skilled swordsman by taking their blade away etc. and not understand why anybody with a modicum of skill in that area listening starts to wet themselves laughing.

FMA practitioners practice a knife based art.

FMA practitioners tend towards the opinion that a knife changes things in an encounter in a very real sense.

Perhaps they know something that you don't.

Read very carefully. At no point has anyone said that when you see a knife, all is lost.

Respect the knife. If you don't it could be the last thing you don't do.

You say that Aikido can deal with "...sword, knife and stuff in between..."

In that case, when the art that was the base for Aikido was developed, why did people continue to make use of weapons if the only difference to any encounter was "psychological?"

Go to a FMA seminar. See what can be done with a knife.

See if you still think that a knife is just a psychological advantage.

Go to a Kendo dojo.

State confidently that your Aikido could deal with a sword and that you could have a shinai off them before being hit.

Try not to feel too silly as they start laughing at you.

Cheers,

Matt.
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Old 05-24-2005, 12:32 PM   #102
Nick Simpson
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Re: techniquies in street fights

If someone cant accept the inate danger a knife poses, then let them get on with it.

Aikido with a tanto is very different to fighting with a knife.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 05-24-2005, 01:20 PM   #103
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

In princple i would agree with Alex that you deal with a knife the same way you would deal with not having a knife, your approach is exactly the same.

In reality, it is much different, and I agree with Michael's point of view.

Of course your not necessarily "done for" and it is not forgone that you will get cut. But, the chances have just increased exponentially and the dynamic/tactics of a bladed weapon is much more different than the dynamic of a empty hand so of course your going to have to deal with it much differently.

I really can't say anymore about the realities of it that have not already been expressed above. If you think otherwise, well then so be it.
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Old 05-24-2005, 03:32 PM   #104
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Tantodori

I must be very bad at explaining myself.

I did not state that it is easy to do aikido against a knife attack - I just said that aikido is constructed to deal with it. Evasive movements instead of blocks, and so on.

I also stressed the probability thing: if you know your aikido well, your odds are better than if you don't. Also - and this is very important - the better the attacker is trained with the knife, the worse odds you have.
On the other hand, if the attacker is not trained with the knife (and that is quite often the case "in the street"), your odds are increased. Not that you want to bet on it with your life, but that's probability at work.
There is no absolute. Just probability. Also for the one with the knife (who can never even be sure of being the only one armed).

Of course fighting is the last option - always, not just when facing a knife, but especially when meeting an armed attacker.

Regarding the "done for" bit, I have observed that most posts stressing the danger of the knife (which is certainly correct to do), give little or no indication of what to do in such a situation, except run away, if possible.
That's what I meant. The overall message on this thread seems to be that if facing a knife, you're done for.
I am glad that I was mistaken. Now, I hope for some tips from the guys who are fully aware of the danger of a knife. What to do when facing it, if not being able to run away?

Again, pardon me for expressing myself so poorly, probably in this post as well. If you do me the generous honor of crediting me with some level of intelligence, you may find it possible to figure out what I might be trying to say.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 05-24-2005, 04:02 PM   #105
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

One thing I have been playing with is what I call "stop, drop, and roll". Just like the fire drill. Not proposing this a solution, just something to think about.

The assumption is that the worse case (and most probable) is that the attacker launches quickly, within range, and suprises you.

There is no time to prepare, no time to react. His attack goes off balanced and before you could possibly irimi. What do you do?

First thing is a natural reaction, the startle reflex. You throw your hands up in attempt to block or minimize damage. Think shomenuchi, but you are slightly off balance. Lets say you were somewhat sucessful in this block, he is now on his next stab/slash, where do you go?

You don't want to regain posture and balance cause you have no time to do so would cause you to get struck again, so you "drop" to regain balance. That removes you from that attack. You are now down low and he has to break his posture in order to go to the third attack. You've created space and re-centered yourself.

The next move is to roll back into posture, or to "come up in base" which will put you back in Kamae. You could also choose to remain on the ground and force him to break posture on his next attack then foot sweep him etc....but this is more a BJJ thing and most aikidoka are not skilled in this area, but it is valid and I personally feel more comfortable now there than coming back up right away.

Basically you could sweep or do a leg take down while down, take him down, then come back up in kamae, ready to deal with multiple attackers.

Just something to think about and play with.

Other than that, if you are dealing with a situation in which you have a good kamae, distance and a foretold attack, I have always been taught to concentrate on moving feet, irimi to minimize your body exposure, enter behind, kotegaeshi, or iriminage. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think it do be realistic from the attacker standpoint in the real world when a bunch of crap is being thrown at you.
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Old 05-24-2005, 05:28 PM   #106
Ketsan
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Re: Tantodori no different

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
Nobody on this thread has been saying that if you face a knife you're done for. Several people who do know what they are talking about have been saying respect the knife. Appreciate that it does change things.

Several people have said that you can deal with a knife as if it were an empty hand and that it wouldn't make any difference but psychological.

This is rubbish. The empty hand can't cut with a touch as light as a caress. The empty hand can't stab and leave a deep wound.

Anybody who is skilled with a knife can not only tell you why it would make a difference but show you too. To use empty hand technique against a knife is a last resort. (I believe that Mike has already made this point.)

It's all reminiscient of times that I've heard Aikidoka confidently say that they could deal with a skilled swordsman by taking their blade away etc. and not understand why anybody with a modicum of skill in that area listening starts to wet themselves laughing.

FMA practitioners practice a knife based art.

FMA practitioners tend towards the opinion that a knife changes things in an encounter in a very real sense.

Perhaps they know something that you don't.

Read very carefully. At no point has anyone said that when you see a knife, all is lost.

Respect the knife. If you don't it could be the last thing you don't do.

You say that Aikido can deal with "...sword, knife and stuff in between..."

In that case, when the art that was the base for Aikido was developed, why did people continue to make use of weapons if the only difference to any encounter was "psychological?"

Go to a FMA seminar. See what can be done with a knife.

See if you still think that a knife is just a psychological advantage.

Go to a Kendo dojo.

State confidently that your Aikido could deal with a sword and that you could have a shinai off them before being hit.

Try not to feel too silly as they start laughing at you.

Cheers,

Matt.
Right. *breathes* First you need to be briefed on my opinion of Aikido.
Aikido = pants, utter pants. Appart from two things it teaches.
1) Get out of the way.
2) Zanshin.
Which is why I do it.

Kendo.
For a start a shinai is far lighter and far faster than a sword and are used in a different way. I know this because my mate does Kendo and because I have a shinai, occasionally I go to his class when I feel like having some fun. So if you've been trying to defend against a shinai you now know why you can't. Shinai are used with the wrist, to get the speed, bokken and sword are arm and body because of the weight difference. Really they're fundermentally different weapons used in fundermentally different ways.
Swap it for an Iwama ryu bokken and tachidori becomes possible, because the weight difference means they have to use it like a sword and not like a shinai. This I know because I have both done it and seen it done.

I'm shocked at you. I really am. I would have thought that the fundermental differences between a bokken and a shinai were fairly well known in Aiki circles.

Right, psychology and weapons. This is going to take a while. Right, ok. Martial arts, fundermentally, are more about the mind than they are about the body or any weapon. Martial arts are basically physical methods designed to lead the student to attaining a martial mind, thing is a martial mind is very much like an enlightened mind, hence where all your spiritual stuff comes from.

Weapons exist for 3 reasons:

Firstly the best way of taking someones mental balance is to wave a large bit of sharp metal in their face, guns are good but knifes, swords anything which resembles a tooth is better, it's an evolutionary thing. Once their mental balance is gone defeating them is much easier.

The second reason is that once the mental balance is broken, although it's easier to defeat them, it's still quite possible to be defeated so you need to take advantage of their mental state and kill them quickly, best way of killing someone is with a weapon.

The third reason is kinda like the first. If you have a weapon you feel more confident than if you don't. It's harder for them to freak you out and also it has a deterrent effect.

This is why the Samurai were encouraged to embrace death and welcome it. It's the only real way to psychologically harden someone to the point where they don't care what you've got and are soley focused on killing their opponent and it was taken as a matter of course in feudal Japan that a really nutty Samurai who was crazy to get himself killed in combat could often bring down a Samurai of much greater skill, who was better armed and walk away. Hagakure is repleat with such stories.

So yes as I've stated a knife is deadly but the thing that makes it deadly is the psychological impact it has on the opponent which enables it's user to take their opponents mental balance and thus effect a physical victory, at which point a knife will kill you pretty damn quick.

If you're facing a loony or someone on drugs or even a confident martial artist it could be a whole different ball game.
Take the Israeli experience. Their manual basically tells their troops not to attempt to draw a weapon if they're being confronted by someone less than 30ft away because they'll be dead before they draw it. Instead it says to use their unarmed skills.

Close the situation down to something more usual. You're in a bar minding your own business, you get into an argument. At what point do you pull the knife? Are you sure you'll be given the chance or have the time? Or more likely will you end up on the floor as most fights end up, rolling about with a knife on the loose making a dangerous situation even more dangerous. I mean the simple fact that reaching for something means dropping your guard makes the whole idea dangerous.

Growing up where I did (a fairly rough pub) taught me a lot, for example that if someone's paying attention to your body movements they see everything and a punch 9/10 is faster than a knife draw because there's movement to make in the same time and you only need to prevent the draw. He's already fighting with one hand tied behind his back, you're weapons are out, his are still to be drawn.

Anyway, it's always down to individuals (martial arts should change your thinking), tactics and stratagy, which ultimately is psychology.
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Old 05-24-2005, 06:18 PM   #107
Matt Molloy
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Re: Tantodori no different

*Deleted*

Can't be bothered arguing with the clueless.

Cheers,

Matt.

Last edited by Matt Molloy : 05-24-2005 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 05-24-2005, 06:57 PM   #108
Ketsan
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Re: Tantodori no different

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
*Deleted*

Can't be bothered arguing with the clueless.

Cheers,

Matt.
Domo arigato gozaimashita.
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Old 05-24-2005, 09:58 PM   #109
L. Camejo
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Lots of generalisations here on knife fighting I see.

Good for theory, not so good for practice.

Just a question. How many Aikido folks here practice Tantodori in Aikido where the attacker is allowed to attack with a knife in any way he wants and fully resist your technique with muscle power, positioning etc. and attempt to cut, strike, throw, pin or whatever else he can to you in order to protect himself and not let you get off a technique against his initial knife strike?

Just wondering.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 05-24-2005, 11:17 PM   #110
xuzen
 
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Re: techniques in street fights

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Lots of generalizations here on knife fighting I see.

Good for theory, not so good for practice.

Just a question. How many Aikido folks here practice Tantodori in Aikido where the attacker is allowed to attack with a knife in any way he wants and fully resist your technique with muscle power, positioning etc. and attempt to cut, strike, throw, pin or whatever else he can to you in order to protect himself and not let you get off a technique against his initial knife strike?

Just wondering.
LC
Hmmm... I know! I know! But the name just escape me...

Could it be...

A) Larry
B) Larry Camejo
C) Larry C the Caribbean SHODO-THUG (TM)?

OK, I give up. People with knife confront me... I make sure I have a bigger knife than his, or some other weapon that is longer (a pole, an umbrella, a walking cane, etc) to keep his distance. Knife not touching skin = not effective knife. Going empty hand against knife, too risky , my medical insurance won't cover me.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 05-25-2005, 02:41 AM   #111
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Lots of generalisations here on knife fighting I see.

Good for theory, not so good for practice.

Just a question. How many Aikido folks here practice Tantodori in Aikido where the attacker is allowed to attack with a knife in any way he wants and fully resist your technique with muscle power, positioning etc. and attempt to cut, strike, throw, pin or whatever else he can to you in order to protect himself and not let you get off a technique against his initial knife strike?

Just wondering.
LC
Only outside the dojo.
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Old 05-25-2005, 03:32 AM   #112
Matt Molloy
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Lots of generalisations here on knife fighting I see.

Good for theory, not so good for practice.

Just a question. How many Aikido folks here practice Tantodori in Aikido where the attacker is allowed to attack with a knife in any way he wants and fully resist your technique with muscle power, positioning etc. and attempt to cut, strike, throw, pin or whatever else he can to you in order to protect himself and not let you get off a technique against his initial knife strike?

Just wondering.
LC
Nah. I crosstrain in Escrima for knife.

Some of the techniques cross over anyway so you get the usual moments of, "Aha! So that is how that can work!" not to mention the odd "So that's why that's not advisable vs someone who really knows what they're doing with this thing."

I believe that Peter "uber-shodothug" Rehse has pointed out that fencing experience can help in Shodokan Tanto randori.

Tanto randori looks great fun but I only have so many days in the week.

Cheers,

Matt.
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Old 05-25-2005, 04:43 AM   #113
Randathamane
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Only outside the dojo.

This is true- it is all inside dojo wearing gi. No context- that is why fencing is still permitted to be taught outside, as to give the dueler the potential to experience outside of the piste.

Anyhow, moving back to this whole thing of techniques in street fights, which we all appear to have digressed onto knives.
the problem with street fights is that they occur suddenly and against two evenly matched opponents they can drag on. so in my mind, any form of throw that would put uke down and keep him down is good. Shihonage-fair enough (just a bit tricky) not so much shiho-osae as you don't have time to stand their pinning him to the floor. Iriminage- works a treat (know from experience) as long as they are committed.
Tenchinage--- (giggles with insane laughter)
Kotegaeshi, my personal favorite, but you have to be careful with emote. so many possibilities- however don't hand around for the police. All they will see is a person on the floor who will start howling in pain and the police will instantly arrest you and charge you with assault. Gotta love English law- when the perpetrator can legally act against the victim...

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Old 05-25-2005, 05:47 AM   #114
Nick Simpson
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Re: techniquies in street fights

"Just a question. How many Aikido folks here practice Tantodori in Aikido where the attacker is allowed to attack with a knife in any way he wants and fully resist your technique with muscle power, positioning etc. and attempt to cut, strike, throw, pin or whatever else he can to you in order to protect himself and not let you get off a technique against his initial knife strike?"

Done this a few times, also practised with both of us armed with tanto and attempting to 'kill' each other. Great fun. I got 'cut' a lot trying to disarm uke in the first scenario, used lots of atemi, kicks, slaps, dirty tricks and I still would have probably bled to death in the end. Second scenario was very long and protracted and we had a stalemate really, we both 'killed' each other.

The way we generally use a knife in this way is by concealing it up the forearm and slashing with it ala special forces style. Its a very nasty attack to deal with. Training like this gave me my respect for bladed weapons...

Also, just a little thing Alex, everything I have read/seen/been taught about cutting with a sword states that the wrists cut, not the arms or shoulders as that encourages strength rather than technique. I use a shinken this way and it works fine, very quick and accurate cuts.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 05-25-2005, 05:59 AM   #115
Matt Molloy
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Also, just a little thing Alex, everything I have read/seen/been taught about cutting with a sword states that the wrists cut, not the arms or shoulders as that encourages strength rather than technique. I use a shinken this way and it works fine, very quick and accurate cuts.
Shhh.

You'll disturb his fantasies about taking out that Yakuza one day.



Cheers,

Matt.
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Old 05-25-2005, 06:01 AM   #116
Matt Molloy
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Re: Tantodori no different

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
Domo arigato gozaimashita.
Thank you? For calling you clueless?

Strange person.

Cheers,

Matt.
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Old 05-25-2005, 06:59 AM   #117
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Also, just a little thing Alex, everything I have read/seen/been taught about cutting with a sword states that the wrists cut, not the arms or shoulders as that encourages strength rather than technique. I use a shinken this way and it works fine, very quick and accurate cuts.
Yeah ok, fine, that's true, point taken.
What I'm getting at is that you wouldn't use a sword as you would a shinai.
A kendoka can strike and recover a shinai so fast that you'd probably still be entering in as he was recovering but if you give him a bokken he slows down enough to be able to take the sword.
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Old 05-25-2005, 07:03 AM   #118
Ketsan
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Re: Tantodori no different

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
Thank you? For calling you clueless?

Strange person.

Cheers,

Matt.
Not really, it's good training. Mind you I am known for my off the wall thinking.

Last edited by Ketsan : 05-25-2005 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 05-25-2005, 07:05 AM   #119
Randathamane
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
A kendoka can strike and recover a shinai so fast that you'd probably still be entering in as he was recovering but if you give him a bokken he slows down enough to be able to take the sword.
Think sensei Mike smith said somthing along those lines when i first asked him, why not use the shinai to reduce the risk of getting clonked.

reason being is to do with weight and the ability to make the cut. with a shinai, you only need the wrist- does not fit the whole body art thing.... Cut with the whole body, not glance using the wrist.


Good against remotes are one thing- good against the living, thats somthing else....
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Old 05-25-2005, 07:08 AM   #120
Tim Gerrard
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Richard Player wrote:
however don't hand around for the police. All they will see is a person on the floor who will start howling in pain and the police will instantly arrest you and charge you with assault. Gotta love English law- when the perpetrator can legally act against the victim...
Don't write off the law that quickly, if you believe your life to be in danger then you are free to do just about anything to preserve life. Just don't go overboard! A police officer finding you jumping up and down on a bloody corpse may think you're taking the mick somewhat, just use enough to end the situation. But it looks better to have acted and be able to explain your actions, than to find a screaming guy on the floor (who WILL tell them anything) and you legging it round the corner, you'd be up on suspicion of GBH in no-time...

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
Aikido = pants, utter pants. Appart from two things it teaches.
You actually belive this? If you trained for a little longer then maybe you would actually see the practical applications of aikido technique. Aikido works, I'm not saying don't cross stuff over, but aikido on its own can still hold its own among other martial arts.

If you have that little faith in it then maybe you need a rethink about your choice.

Yours
T

Last edited by Tim Gerrard : 05-25-2005 at 07:11 AM. Reason: Speeellign grammre and :D

Aikido doesn't work? My Aikido works, what on earth are you practicing?!
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Old 05-25-2005, 07:35 AM   #121
Matt Molloy
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
if you give him a bokken he slows down enough to be able to take the sword.
Dream on boy.

Cheers,

Matt.
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Old 05-25-2005, 07:39 AM   #122
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Richard Player wrote:
Think sensei Mike smith said somthing along those lines when i first asked him, why not use the shinai to reduce the risk of getting clonked.

reason being is to do with weight and the ability to make the cut. with a shinai, you only need the wrist- does not fit the whole body art thing.... Cut with the whole body, not glance using the wrist.

Being wacked by Sensei convinced me. I mean you see body movement with a bokken, there's warning but the shinai doesn't move, you just get this pain where it's hit.
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Old 05-25-2005, 08:02 AM   #123
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
Dream on boy.

Cheers,

Matt.
If you've tried and it and it didn't work, how injured were you after being hit by the bokken? I can assure you that if you've ever been hit full power with a Iwama ryu bokken you do not walk away uninjured.
If you've not tried it go and try it.
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Old 05-25-2005, 08:24 AM   #124
deepsoup
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Tim Gerrard wrote:
Don't write off the law that quickly, if you believe your life to be in danger then you are free to do just about anything to preserve life. Just don't go overboard!
Sound advice, imo. The law is not, in this case, an ass. (Unfortunately, sometimes a policeman is, but thats another story.)

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
Only outside the dojo.
Lol. You seem to think you're batman, but I'm afraid you'll not be taken too seriously here as long as you're wearing your underpants over the top of your hakama.

Sean
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Old 05-25-2005, 08:28 AM   #125
Matt Molloy
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 134
Scotland
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
If you've tried and it and it didn't work, how injured were you after being hit by the bokken? I can assure you that if you've ever been hit full power with a Iwama ryu bokken you do not walk away uninjured.
If you've not tried it go and try it.
I was referring to Kendoka slowing down so much that someone like yourself would be able to take a bokken off them.

As a Kendoka and Aikidoka, I'm more than aware that you're talking rubbish on this.

The more you post, the more ignorant you seem.

I pray that your sensei never reads half of this stuff. They would probably be very embarrassed for you.

Not to mention that they probably wouldn't be too impressed with you calling the art that they train you in "pants"

You have a lot to learn, as you're probably very young, you have a lot of time.

Good luck.

Cheers,

Matt.
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