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Old 05-23-2005, 07:31 AM   #76
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Tantodori

Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote:
Get a white T-shirt and a fat, permanent red marker.
That's a good exercise. It is important for uke, though, to think knife and not marker. Different techniques apply
Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote:
Someone said it earlier, if you fight with knives expect to get cut.
That would be me, I believe.
The one who imagines getting through it without any damage, will probably get the most damaged. Notice: this may very well be the one with the knife

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-23-2005, 07:33 AM   #77
wendyrowe
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Richard Player wrote:
... as aikido is purely defensive (ref Shihan of the UKA or even Saito sensei) i fail to see how a defender can take the initial initiative of combat- Aikidoka can counter and throw/ lock- but they must fight to the enemies pace and game. They are the ones that determine the speed, they are the ones that dictate the technique, they are the ones that are coming in first...
The aikidoka can make a small initial movement that appears to give an opening for a specific type of attack, then can be ready to counter that attack. That's what my Sensei (Jason DeLucia) does, and he's certainly not the only one. In that way, the aikidoka influences the enemy's pace and game rather than being at its mercy.
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Old 05-23-2005, 07:45 AM   #78
Nick Simpson
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Richard, your post above is so childish I shouldnt even really bother responding but someone has to do it. Hitting someone while they are busy 'intimidating' you doesnt require jedi-like powers of the force or whatever your talking about. It is about making an informed decision and acting on it:

E.g. "This person is probably going to hit me, I dont like them pushing me in the chest or the way they are shouting at me. I think I'll have to hit them before they work up the nerve to hit me."

The rest of your post I strongly disagree with too.

The Aikido I practise is not purely defensive. I am not part of the UKA and have never trained with Saito Sensei. My Aikido is aggressive, I like to practise it in a martial spirit. I like to initiate techniques myself. For instance, tori punches uke, uke blocks the strike, tori performs ikkyo on the blocking arm. This is just a very small part of it.

" Aikidoka can counter and throw/ lock- but they must fight to the enemies pace and game. "

Thats b*llocks. I dont think I need to waste my time explaining why.

How long have you been training Richard? Have you been in or even seen a fight?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:24 AM   #79
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Offensive - defensive

Allow me to express a personal opinion, almost an aikido credo.
Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
My Aikido is aggressive, I like to practise it in a martial spirit. I like to initiate techniques myself. For instance, tori punches uke, uke blocks the strike, tori performs ikkyo on the blocking arm.
But is that aikido? To me it is not.
My impression of Osensei is that he wanted to move away from that, and I am sure that I would not be doing aikido for as long as I have, if I felt that it had to be aggressive.

Sure, there is an element in aikido of "triggering" the attack, by an open stance, by a certain movement, and so on. But if tori commences with attacking uke, then I would insist that the aikido idea/ideal is deserted.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:42 AM   #80
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Re: Offensive - defensive

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote:
Allow me to express a personal opinion, almost an aikido credo.

But is that aikido? To me it is not.
My impression of Osensei is that he wanted to move away from that, and I am sure that I would not be doing aikido for as long as I have, if I felt that it had to be aggressive.
Stefan, a little presumptuous to interpret O'Sensei's wishes. If you read "Budo" you will see Aikido has offensive techniques as well as defensive. While almost all offensive techniques are not taught, it is clear to me that O'Sensei originally included them.

While I agree we all have our own interpretation of what Aikido is, to call one person's ideas not aikido (I know that wasn't your exact words, but that was the thought conveyed) because they don't agree with your own is wrong. I think the beauty in Aikido is the ability to be either soft or hard. You control the amount of force or damage, immobilize or incapacitate-the choice is yours. I think O'Sensei's intent was to give that kind of knowledge and foster an attitude towards compassion rather than destruction. However you truly can't be a pacifist until you have the ability to destroy and choose not to.

Gregory Makuch
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:44 AM   #81
Dazzler
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Hmmm....Aggressive?

I'd prefer positive.

Aikido is martial art - not self defense..... Both irimi and tenkan exist.

Perhaps I could have added to the favourite aikido quotes thread "if there is going to be a fight start it".

I personally dont have any issue with taking positive action to control a situation and don't see that there can be any philosophical objection to nipping a problem in the bud.

To me this is good aiki and can be very effective in many scenarios...attack being sometimes the best form of defence?

Thinking aloud.........

D
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:50 AM   #82
Matt Molloy
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Alex and Richard,

I'd advise you both to go chat with your sensei and see if he/she can make either of you see sense.

That's all on that subject from me.

As to Aikido being purely defensive, I couldn't disagree more. The philosophy may be compassionate but that doesn't mean that we cut off an entire range of technique.

Nick pointed out just one way in which tori can initiate the sequence and then there's the point that if Aikidoka aren't capable of decent attacks then the training in the dojo will suffer.

If you don't like the terms "offensive" or "aggressive" then perhaps "active" Aikido would work better.

Like that yin and yang symbol we see around all these Aikido websites.

Remove one half and it doesn't make sense.

In all the talk of peace and love people often seem to miss out the idea that O'Sensei was certainly not lacking in martial spirit and his art reflects that.

Sometimes if feels as though we're a group of people trying to learn "the noble art" (boxing) and complaining that punching people isn't very "noble."

Just my opinion.

Cheers,

Matt.

Edit: Got called away whilst posting and didn't see Daren and Gregory's posts before posting.

Great minds.....

Last edited by Matt Molloy : 05-23-2005 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 05-23-2005, 10:11 AM   #83
Ron Tisdale
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Re: techniquies in street fights

I tend to agree with the last couple of posts myself...you can fiddle with the terminology, but many styles of aikido definately include what might be termed as attacking/initiating movements. Budo does indeed list some great examples. Almost all the shomenuch ikkajo, nikkajo, sankajo, yonkajo techniques show omote as shite/nage attacking.

Even in styles where overt attacks might not be used, different phases of 'sen' are used in other ways. Not just go no sen, or reactive time/initiative.

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-23-2005, 10:47 AM   #84
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Offensive - defensive

I thought I would get some objections

Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote:
Stefan, a little presumptuous to interpret O'Sensei's wishes. If you read "Budo" you will see Aikido has offensive techniques as well as defensive.
I said "My impression of Osensei is that he wanted to move away from that", by which I meant that he changed through time - and of course I meant it's my impression, only. I never even met Osensei, so how could I claim to know for sure? I don't.
Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote:
While I agree we all have our own interpretation of what Aikido is, to call one person's ideas not aikido (I know that wasn't your exact words, but that was the thought conveyed) because they don't agree with your own is wrong.
That was not the thought I wanted to convey. Sorry if I was unclear. I said: "But is that aikido? To me it is not." Also I began my post by saying: "Allow me to express a personal opinion." I thought that would make it obvious I was only stating my own credo.
Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote:
However you truly can't be a pacifist until you have the ability to destroy and choose not to.
Here, I agree with you. I would not say that it is absolutely necessary to be able to destroy, to be a pacifist - but without the ability, it might not be a pacifism of choice but of necessity.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-23-2005, 10:55 AM   #85
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Starting the fight

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
Perhaps I could have added to the favourite aikido quotes thread "if there is going to be a fight start it".
I have some problems with the idea of starting the fight to win it. Mainly: How do you know the fight is unavoidable, if you start it? How do you know there would be a fight, anyway?

Certainly, sometimes you see it coming, a mile away. Other times, though, it is questionable. Like with most - or all - things in life, it is a question of where to draw the line.
Some cases are obvious, but most cases are uncertain.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-23-2005, 10:58 AM   #86
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
..... To me it sounds like your saying chudan tsuki is no problem but chudan tsuki with a knife will always get through and cut or stab.
No, I am saying that while an empty hand Chundan tsuki that gets through is a problem, a chudan tsuki with a knife is a bigger problem. The fist will stop at what it hits; the knife will go through it.

Quote:
Well if I just stand there of course I'm dead. If I take your wrist and move away from the knife I'm safe, obviously with some kind of take down. The question is who has the fastest reflexes?
The person holding the knife only has to make a very small movement. That's the point. Not, "what if someone holds a knife against my carotid?" The point is it takes only a small movement to end your life. Not necessarily the case with a punch.

Quote:
No it's the reality of the man holding the knife, if you change it for another knife he'll still be just as fast.
And again, the point is to demonstrate the amount of damage that can be done in a very short amount of time with a knife.

There have been surveys of cops who have survived knife attacks, and they say they didn't know the person had the knife until after they'd been stabbed. That give a clue to how fast it is?

Quote:
Oh I don't equate them, I just say that most of the difference is inside the mind of the person facing the knife.
If by that you mean the person facing the knife weilding attacker shoudln't turn to jelly and be paralyzed in fear by the sight of the knife, I agree with you. In fact, I've said that many times already!

But if you are poo-pooing how deadly a knife can be, then you are flat out wrong. Sorry, you're wrong. Period.
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Old 05-23-2005, 11:08 AM   #87
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Richard Player wrote:
..... Alex is a 3rd kyu in aikido and has experienced more Martial arts to a similar that i would care to name. He does know what he is on about- maybe not to a dan grade level- but he does know this .....
Oh, I'm sure he's very knowlegeable and skilled, and I wouldn't even bet on a fight between him and me; he'd beat me up. No question.

But that doesn't mean he isn't wrong. He is. That's all there is to it.
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Old 05-23-2005, 12:46 PM   #88
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Oh a knifes deadly but only if you can get it to the target. A knife enhances the power of the strike but not the ability to get through to the target.
Take an opposite here and I'm not being flippant here but imagine this. You're doing whatever when someone jumps out and threatens you with a wooden spoon or even has a damn good go at gutting you with it as if it were a knife. That'd also have a psychological impact, you'd be wetting yourself and wondering what this nutter was on, giving him an opening that he wouldn't otherwise have.
Same with a knife but obviously for the opposite reason.
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:02 PM   #89
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Stefan, Thanks for clarifying your point. It makes more sense now. As for O'Sensei's intents, I think they evolved over the years. What his intent was in his 50's was definitely different than his 80's. This can be seen in the split of some very senior students and the creation of some other styles, such as Yoshikan.

Gregory Makuch
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:54 PM   #90
L. Camejo
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Ron made a good point about Sen timing (Sen no Sen is another). Aikido is all about taking and controlling the initiative imo. It's not a solely "defensive" martial art - that is a total fallacy.

On another point, I think some folks are confusing speed with deception. Most folks who get stabbed without knowing it or being able to react quickly enough tend to end up in that situation not because they saw a knife and were slow to react, avoid, defend themselves or attack, it is because they never knew a knife was part of the engagement to begin with. The stab tends to be the point where the victim first suspects that a knife is involved.

Having done some training in tactical folding knife (as taught to SWAT and those types), a lot of the training is based on the premise that you never let the target see the knife until after he feels it penetrating a vital organ, artery or muscle. It's all about a calm, deceptive, sharp, focussed surprise attack.

So imo it is not so much about speed, though it does take much less movement to seriously and fatally wound with a knife than it does to avoid being stabbed, effectively block or control the attacker. The main thing is that someone trained to kill with a knife will not allow it to be seen. If you can see it before it is in you, then you may stand a chance to do something and escape.

Just a few thoughts.
LC

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Old 05-23-2005, 02:08 PM   #91
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Starting the fight

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote:
I have some problems with the idea of starting the fight to win it. Mainly: How do you know the fight is unavoidable, if you start it? How do you know there would be a fight, anyway?

Certainly, sometimes you see it coming, a mile away. Other times, though, it is questionable. Like with most - or all - things in life, it is a question of where to draw the line.
Some cases are obvious, but most cases are uncertain.

I think you have captured the essence of why to bother studying aikido. Aikido's aim should be to give you options to be able to walk the line and stop a fight before it stops. It may be with a kamae, or it may be with a pre-emptive technique. Of course this is all philosophical in nature, but then again, aikido is a "DO" art.

I tend to think of it not as starting a fight, but presenting a presence so powerful that the other person thinks it foolish to proceed.

You don't start the fight if he/she shows intent first. I think it is possible to fire the first physical move (pre-emptive) without being in the category of "starting".
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Old 05-23-2005, 02:28 PM   #92
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Osensei changing

Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote:
As for O'Sensei's intents, I think they evolved over the years. What his intent was in his 50's was definitely different than his 80's.
I agree with you, completely. Sorry to have been so vague, to begin with. Hopefully I will also evolve toward my 80's

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-23-2005, 02:38 PM   #93
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Sen sen no sen

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Ron made a good point about Sen timing (Sen no Sen is another). Aikido is all about taking and controlling the initiative imo. It's not a solely "defensive" martial art - that is a total fallacy.
If I am not mistaken, the earliest counter attack timing is the sen sen no sen, which should be done at the moment when uke decides to attack, but has not started moving yet. This, I believe, is central in aikido. In my opinion, it is not the same as starting the fight - although difficult to tell apart, for the bystander
Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Having done some training in tactical folding knife (as taught to SWAT and those types), a lot of the training is based on the premise that you never let the target see the knife until after he feels it penetrating a vital organ, artery or muscle.
That is why it is good aikido strategy to treat every attacker as if armed. For example, moving out of the way of a strike, not blocking it - and so on.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-23-2005, 02:57 PM   #94
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Not being a target

Oh, I might be writing too many posts, now...
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Aikido's aim should be to give you options to be able to walk the line and stop a fight before it stops. It may be with a kamae, or it may be with a pre-emptive technique. Of course this is all philosophical in nature, but then again, aikido is a "DO" art.
I tend to think of it not as starting a fight, but presenting a presence so powerful that the other person thinks it foolish to proceed.
Absolutely! I believe that it is possible to have such an attitude that others find it hard to even focus on attacking. To be so "slippery" that the aggression of others does not stick on you. I don't believe that it is a question of intimidating the would-be attacker, but to sort of disappear as a target for an attack. It's all in the mind

When I was young, and had done aikido for a few years, I experimented a bit with it (well, I still do, sort of): the attitude that is the most difficult to even think of attacking. Who knows if I succeeded? As always, probability rules. Maybe I managed to avoid some conflicts that otherwise would appear.

I remember a three-step thing, happening to me several times. Somebody out in "real life" showed aggression, and was evidently considering fighting me. I tried to be friendly and yielding, saying nice words. Didn't work (you already knew, didn't you all?).

So, then I gave the guy a little growl, showing that I might not be an easy target, and that I would definitely put up a fight. Didn't work, either. Maybe I was not threatening enough, who knows.

Anyway, after that I just relaxed, and thought: To hell with it. I left it to my reflexes (I was young enough to trust them deeply...).
Immediately at that moment, the guy changed attitude, into something very close to my first approach - being friendly, yielding, saying: "Sorry, no, I wouldn't fight you..." And he hurried off.

This happened to me several times, exactly in the same steps. I started thinking, "Hey, this would be a good strategy," but I don't believe that works. As a strategy, it would not work, only as something genuine - me going through the steps and actually trying them, and then finally just relaxing, leaving it to my reflexes and my center to deal with.

Why did it work? I have my theories, but this post is already far too long

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-23-2005, 08:16 PM   #95
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Sen sen no sen

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote:
If I am not mistaken, the earliest counter attack timing is the sen sen no sen, which should be done at the moment when uke decides to attack, but has not started moving yet. This, I believe, is central in aikido. In my opinion, it is not the same as starting the fight - although difficult to tell apart, for the bystander
Of course. Initiative in Aikido has nothing to do with "starting a fight" so to speak. In fact the idea is to end the fight as it is starting.

This is why folks who like to "fight" often have issue with Aikido in "fighting" such as in NHB events and self defence situations. One who really uses Aikido effectively does not allow things to degenerate into a fight or struggle. The idea is to resolve the conflict as soon as, if not before they start to get physical imho.

LC

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Old 05-23-2005, 09:43 PM   #96
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Hey guys,

The last two posts got exciting (Larry's and Stefan's) and tempted me to post a reply.

As for me; at this moment, my aikido training only allows me to 'not lose' an altercation if I maintain my surprise element. My training does not gear me for a slug-it-out type of confrontation. It teaches me to be mentally be prepared, to maintain a certain decorum which keeps all my openings closed to the would be attacker. Maybe it has to be my posture, my demeanour... something non-physical that says... "Keep out, vicious dog inside".

Funny enough, after years of of being an aikido student, I never actually have to use it physically. But using aikido verbally and psychologically I've got plenty of exercise as I work in the service industry. Calming irate customers is my specialty and lessons learned in aikido helped me greatly.

The closest physical altercation I have the opportunity to encounter was once when I had to confront a suspected shop-lifter. He tried to be funny, trying to distract me, using verbal abuses and threats to throw me off course. All I remember was ignoring his verbal threats and abuse and just focused on his body movement... quite akin the aiki-ken exercise we do in the normal dojo environment, i.e., ignore opponent's bokken and focused on body movement.

At last, after creating quite a scene, the would be shop-lifter backed down and walked off. Looking back... I think it must be my very alert demeanour and not offering any opening that forced him to back off.

I would like to believe that the above serves to illustrate what Larry C. said with regards to aikido being used to end confrontation or maybe to maintain harmony even in confrontation as oppose to "starting a fight".

Boon.

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Old 05-24-2005, 05:49 AM   #97
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
Alex and Richard,
I'd advise you both to go chat with your sensei and see if he/she can make either of you see sense.
He'd tell me to get a tanto, then he'd do ikkyo, shi-ho nage, irmi-nage, utchi kaiten nage exactly the same way he would against Shomen, yokomen and tsuki, look at me as if I was mad and ask me what the difference was. Since he'd have done the technique the same way he always does I'd have to say "None Sensei".
Then he'd say something like "The weapon is only an extention of his body".

It happens everytime someone says "But what if he had a knife?".

My Ju-jitsu Sensei would have said something like "There are no techniques for stopping knives, just techniques for stopping people. You might be attacked so suddenly that you don't realise that you're dealing with a knife but you can always react to their movement in some way".

Last edited by Ketsan : 05-24-2005 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 05-24-2005, 08:07 AM   #98
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Tantodori no different

For what it's worth: I agree with Alex.
Aikido is constructed to work against sword, knife and stuff in between. Do your aikido correctly, and the knife is dealt with.
With reservation for the same old probability law I have mentioned before.

It is interesting to notice that anyone who does not support this above strategy (or possibility) seems to say only: if you face a knife, you're done for.
That's no doubt the very worst strategy

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-24-2005, 10:36 AM   #99
CNYMike
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
Oh a knifes deadly .....
So close! But then you wrote this:

Quote:
..... imagine this. You're doing whatever when someone jumps out and threatens you with a wooden spoon or even has a damn good go at gutting you with it as if it were a knife. That'd also have a psychological impact, you'd be wetting yourself and wondering what this nutter was on, giving him an opening that he wouldn't otherwise have.
Same with a knife but obviously for the opposite reason.
Except that the wooden spoon couldn't cut me. If he whacked me in the chest with a spoon, I might get a nasty bruise; if he "whacked" me in the chest with a knife, I would be dead if it finds my heart.

You had it right in your first sentence: A knife is deadly. That doesn't mean you're done for. It doesn't mean you can't defend yourself. It does mean the situation is a lot worse for you than if he had an impact weapon like a club or a wooden spoon. This is why Guro Dan Inosanto -- who has probably forgot more than you or I or anyone else here will ever remember -- advises that empty hand defense against a knife is your last line of defense. Better bet is to throw something like a chair at him. The knife is just very, very dangerous.

Now, either Guro Dan is wrong, or you're wrong. My money's on the one who's the head of a Kali system.
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Old 05-24-2005, 10:39 AM   #100
CNYMike
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Re: Tantodori no different

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote:
It is interesting to notice that anyone who does not support this above strategy (or possibility) seems to say only: if you face a knife, you're done for.
That's no doubt the very worst strategy
I don't know about anyone else, but I have not been saying, "If you face a knife, you're done for," and I agree that's the worst strategy. I have been saying, "If you face a knife, you are in much worse trouble than if the person has an impact weapon, because it takes a lot less effort to maim or kill you with a knife." That is not the same as "done for;" just that you are in very serious trouble, and should respect the knife's capability to harm you. It is what my Kali teacher has been drumming into us lately, and what I am trying to get across here.
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