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Old 05-20-2005, 10:51 PM   #51
CNYMike
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
Knives are pretty much a psychological thing. If you deal with them as an empty hand attack there isn't much problem with them.
Alex, in spite of all our debates, I've never met you, probably never will, and know nothing about you. If you've been in situations where someone has pulled a knife on you and your persepctive after surviving those encounters is as stated above, cool.

But a knife is a world apart from an impact weapon -- including a fist -- in how lethal it can be. All by itself, it is the equivelant of ten years of martial arts training. You shouldn't be paralyzed in fear by it, but you should respect it because it can kill you very easily. So if you've survived knife attacks, great. But if you haven't and you're just assuming it's no different from a fist or a foot, then with all due respect, you are out of your cotton pickin' mind.
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Old 05-21-2005, 04:06 AM   #52
Matt Molloy
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
Knives are pretty much a psychological thing. If you deal with them as an empty hand attack there isn't much problem with them.
I'm afraid that this comes across as ridiculous bordering on insane.

If you grab (even accidentally) an empty hand, you'll probably be alright. If you do this to a knife, you'll definitely have some trauma to the hand.

If an empty hand lands lightly and strokes you, no damage done. Not so with a sharp knife.

The list could go on and on.

Go find an experienced escrima/arnis/kali or any other knife proficient art practitioner. Train with them and when you know what you're talking about, be so good as to post a retraction.

Even do the old drill where you get a training knife, cover it in dye/chalk and, wearing an old t-shirt, do some training.

When you see that t-shirt with the dye on it, think that each mark would have been a cut.

Repeat to yourself, "knives are pretty much a psychological thing."

See if you still believe it.

Cheers,

Matt.
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Old 05-21-2005, 12:48 PM   #53
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Yokomen utchi with a tanto is still yokomen utchi, tsuki with a tanto is still tsuki, shomen utchi with a tanto is still shomen utchi. At some point if he wants to attack you he has to move his arms towards you and if you deal with that arm movement the knife is meaningless.
Tanto dori is not about dealing with knives. No technique ever invented is about dealing with a knife. Without exception they're about dealing with a PERSON using a knife.

First knife fight I was in is a classic example. I have a mate. His sole martial arts training consists of one karate class about 10 years ago. One night we were out about, saw some lads on the corner, didn't think much. Next thing we know they're demanding money off us and waving knives in our faces. The one that's on my mate is holding a knife to the back of his neck and searching his pockets when my mate makes a small step and plants a hook on his jaw. The dude hits the floor, totally out of it.
Where was the all powerful knife? In his unconcious hand, totally safe and harmless. Did the knife stop the hook? Did the knife render it's owner mystical powers of invincibilty? There is no mystical power to the knife, it's only as effective as the person carrying it and we know how to deal with them because a knife is only an extension of that person.

Deal with the knife carrying strike, not the knife.

Simple experiement, give a tanto to someone in the dojo, take them by the wrist holding the tanto and tell them to stab you. While they're doing this imagine how many times you could have punched them in the throat, or choaked them. Who do you think would have died first?

So I say again. A knife is mostly psychological.
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Old 05-21-2005, 01:11 PM   #54
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Second knife fight I was in I was working in a bar. It was closing time, people were drinking up and leaving. One guy and his mate decided that they were special and that the bar should remain open all night. There was a heated argument over wheather the bar was remaining open or not and he threw a punch at me. I blocked took his wrist, delivered some atemi to his face, grabbed him by his coat and dragged him onto the bar. Then I noticed he had a butterfly knife in his hand, dragged him all the way over the bar, got him into a kote-gashi style armlock, arm straight up one foot pinning his shoulder down, bent his wrist gokyo style, held it like that with my right and smacked it with my left, causing him to drop the knife, which was then taken away by one of the barstaff. Then security dragged him out.

Last edited by Ketsan : 05-21-2005 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 05-21-2005, 02:25 PM   #55
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
Go find an experienced escrima/arnis/kali or any other knife proficient art practitioner. Train with them and when you know what you're talking about, be so good as to post a retraction.
What has someones skill with a knife got to do with the knife? Is his ki stored in the knife or something? Either that or Kail people must be the best boxers in the world because something in their movements is so superior to everything everyone else is doing that they will always hit. Actually your reaction (OMG there's a knife, I've lost) proves my point. Such is your fear of the knife you forget there's a man holding it. Admittedly using Aikido you're probably screwed, it's too slow to deal with the kind of fast attacks you get in kali et el but I do more than Aikido.
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Old 05-21-2005, 05:20 PM   #56
CNYMike
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
First knife fight I was in is a classic example. I have a mate. His sole martial arts training consists of one karate class about 10 years ago. One night we were out about, saw some lads on the corner, didn't think much. Next thing we know they're demanding money off us and waving knives in our faces. The one that's on my mate is holding a knife to the back of his neck and searching his pockets when my mate makes a small step and plants a hook on his jaw. The dude hits the floor, totally out of it.
Where was the all powerful knife? In his unconcious hand, totally safe and harmless. Did the knife stop the hook? Did the knife render it's owner mystical powers of invincibilty? There is no mystical power to the knife ....
I'm glad that you have survived these encounters -- the one described above and the one listed in the other message --- but I never said the knife had mystical power. The knife's power is that unlike an impact weapon, you don't have to wind up in order to do serious damage.

There's a video I've scene comprised of videos of cops who have SURVIVED knife attacks. Yes, these guys have guns and clubs and some empty hand technique and go for strength in numbers, and they still get disfigured or killed by people weilding knives. It is not something to make light of. This is why my Kali instructor and his Serak instructor absolutely FORBID training with real knives, even if they are sheathed.

Quote:
Simple experiement, give a tanto to someone in the dojo, take them by the wrist holding the tanto and tell them to stab you. While they're doing this imagine how many times you could have punched them in the throat, or choaked them. Who do you think would have died first?
If the person someohow manages to wiggle around and slash the arteries in my wrist, I am in trouble.

Here's another experiment:

Give a wooden tanto to someone in the dojo and have him or her rest it on the side of your throat with your blade next to your carotid artery. Think of how many things you can do before they pull their arm back, only maybe the length of the knife, inflicting a life-threatening injury if it's a real knife. Now who's in trouble?

I'm glad you've survived, but you've learned the wrong lessons from your experiences.
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Old 05-21-2005, 05:28 PM   #57
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
What has someones skill with a knife got to do with the knife? .....
Do one minute of kife sparring with one of them, you will know.

Quote:
Is his ki stored in the knife or something? Either that or Kail people must be the best boxers in the world because something in their movements is so superior to everything everyone else is doing that they will always hit ....
I am a Kali person, and you are missing the point altogether. And, if I may say, being a little offensive.

Quote:
Actually your reaction (OMG there's a knife, I've lost) proves my point ....
If you'd bother to reread what I actually posted, I acutally counseled against that "OMG!" reaction. No one is talking about being paralyzed by fear of it. We are talking about respecting it for a simple reason: It can kill you a lot easier than an impcat weapon can. That is not hysteria or paranoia, that is fact. Period. You have a good point about dealing with the person attached to it. But if you do not respect, it, you are asking for trouble. You haven't got into it so far. Good for you. But you are wrong not to respect (not fear, resepect) what a knife can do to you.
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Old 05-21-2005, 07:06 PM   #58
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Michael has some great points. There is no comparison between someone skilled with a knife and someone who is playing around with one.

The fact is a skilled knife fighter will only let you know that a knife is involved after he has already seriously or fatally wounded you. You will often never see it coming.

Those who pull knives out and wave them around for intimidation effects are often doing it for the psychogical effect they hope it will have and are often neither skilled nor knowledgeable in its proper use. They will tend to do things like hold the person close at "knifepoint" like Alex indicated in his first story and then proceed to think that this intimidation alone will work to stop some form of counter attack on the part of the victim. Some of these folks often don't even have the right mindset to cleanly and fatally knife someone if necessary (i.e. when they flinch), thinking that the intimidation factor alone will be enough for submission. In these cases counterattack is often effective, but it is in no way comparable to a possible encounter with someone who really knows how to kill with a knife and is mentally capable of doing it instantly.

Even in the RMCAT Reality Based training program and other similar programs it shocked many to realise how easily a handgun wielding defender at 21 feet could still be fatally wounded with a knife before he/she got off enough rounds that would effectively stop a motivated knife wielding attacker. And this is in the case of an extremely motivated untrained attacker, not a trained one who may know exactly what targets to strike to maximise the possibility of death (Fairbairn's system comes to mind).

I do agree that the "OMG, freeze and sit there and become sushi" reaction is a possibly fatal one against any sort of real attack, so it is important to condition oneself to get past the knife (or other weapon) and get to the person wielding it. For me the resistance tanto randori training we do has worked for all of my students who have been involved in knife encounters so far, but it is because we keep a healthy respect of what could be done with a knife (studying kali and CQB style attacks and defenses also) in the right hands so we take no chances when we go for the person.

Reality defence has so many unknown factors that it is difficult to simulate all scenarios in any training regimen, this is why knowledge of the psychology and physiology of violence is important alongside any other training.

Just my 5 cents.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 05-21-2005 at 07:14 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 05-22-2005, 09:08 AM   #59
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Here's another experiment:

Give a wooden tanto to someone in the dojo and have him or her rest it on the side of your throat with your blade next to your carotid artery. Think of how many things you can do before they pull their arm back, only maybe the length of the knife, inflicting a life-threatening injury if it's a real knife. Now who's in trouble?
That sounds like a question of reflexes.
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Old 05-22-2005, 11:36 AM   #60
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Re: techniquies in street fights

It is a question of advantage (position) and technological superiority (knife). Respect it.
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Old 05-22-2005, 11:37 AM   #61
Matt Molloy
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
Simple experiement, give a tanto to someone in the dojo, take them by the wrist holding the tanto and tell them to stab you. While they're doing this imagine how many times you could have punched them in the throat, or choaked them. Who do you think would have died first?

So I say again. A knife is mostly psychological.
So far just I'd just agree with what Michael and Larry have said in response but this stuck out a little from everything else you'd said.

What you've just advocated here is to walk into an Aikido dojo and, after giving somebody a tanto, grabbing them by the wrist.

Let's look at that again shall we?

Aikido?

Knife?

Grab them by the wrist.????

Hello??

What attack do we most train against in Aikido?

Hmmm. Could it be a wrist grab by any chance?

So, after they've applied the technique of their choice to your rather unfortunate person, they would then be in a position to insert said tanto in the area of their choice.

Better hope they're in a good mood eh?

At first you came across as knowing little about knife combat. Now you're coming across as knowing little about Aikido too.

Oh dear.

With regard to a knife being mostly psychological, as Larry pointed out, with someone who knows what they're doing you won't even know they have a knife until it's too late.

A knife is a tool. Like all tools it is designed to make certain things easier. Certain nasty people use them to make violent encounters easier for themselves. There is a reason for that.

Nobody is advocating an "Oh My God!" freeze response. They're advocating a respect for the situation and that you increase your knowledge and understanding.

I'm glad that you've been lucky so far in your encounters. I hope that you have no need of that luck in the future but that if you do, it will still be there for you.

Cheers,

Matt.
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Old 05-22-2005, 11:41 AM   #62
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
It is a question of advantage (position) and technological superiority (knife). Respect it.
Succinct and to the point. I can only second this.

Cheers,

Matt.
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Old 05-22-2005, 12:17 PM   #63
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Tantodori, defense against knife

This thread has clearly moved into the subject of tantodori, defense against knife attacks. Any chance of having the thread renamed or moved to a proper headline?

Sometimes, when I ask the students in the beginning of a class what they would like to practice, in nine out of ten cases they say tantodori. Clearly, it is not practiced enough in most dojos.

Now, attack by knife is something that people can experience in their lifetime - and it can easily become lethal - so I try to treat the subject seriously also in the dojo. I don't want my students to learn something in the dojo that increases instead of decreases their risk in an outside-dojo situation. I hope I succeed, but I would not dream of stating that I am sure of it.

I believe that there are basic, almost mathematical, aspects to any self defense situation: It depends on your training, and that of your attacker. You can apply figures of probability. A weapon immediately increases the odds for the one carrying it, but it never eliminates other aspects of the situation.
I guess that no one would argue that simple fact, although people calculate the probability differently.

Miyamoto Musashi made a very interesting statement about shotguns in his Go Rin no Sho: The disadvantage of the gun, and it's a great one, is that you usually don't see where the bullet hits, if it misses the target - so you have trouble adjusting, in the heat of combat.
Any weapon carries with it a strength to the one using it, but also some weakness - mostly a dependence on the weapon, and an inability to use other means than that.
Those who are very experienced with such encounters, know how to exploit that weakness.

A friend of mine said something quite profound about defense against knife: If you are scared of getting cut at all, then you will probably be fatally cut. Many people tend to pull back their arms, when facing a knife, not to get them cut. So, their bodies are exposed. A costly reflex.

For the aikido student, I strongly believe that aikido - well trained - includes decent (there is no such thing as perfect) defense against knife. You have to have practiced it substantially, though, to trust it in an outside-dojo situation - and still, the probability calculation rules, so that a skilled knife-attacker is quite difficult to defeat even for the very advanced aikido student.

When teaching tantodori, I strongly suggest every teacher to get more "realistic" than might be the case otherwise, not to accidentally foster weaknesses in the student. It is also essential to seriously consider the difficulty of it.

Maybe the conclusion about tantodori is simply: It can be done, but it's not easy.

I have some material on tantodori on my website, but it's mostly about disarming uke, after the technique is done. I am sure that some of you find my instructions ridiculous. If you're interested, here it is:
http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/tanto.htm

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-22-2005, 12:32 PM   #64
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Re: techniquies in street fights

In the modern army combatives program we recognize knife defenses and practice them somettimes. However not that often. Our philosophy is the winner of the fight is the guy whose buddy shows up with a gun first. Now that is contextual based on scenarios that soldiers face, (we never go in a situation alone). But still I think it is relevant to the civilian side as well somewhat.

I think it is important to always consider that your opponent may be armed, but to train for a knife fight as a sole focus of your training, IMHO, is not productive. Why? because I personally don't think it is realistic to face a knife wielding opponent who will present it so openly. Most knife attacks will be ambush attacks and you won't see it coming. Why do you want to give away the element of suprise if you are the attacker and truely mean to kill your opponent?

I think the way we train in aikido is good cause it always considers the knife attack as a possibility and attempts to limit the exposure you will have to a knife or other weapons.

Musashi is good, certainly you need to enter a fight in the proper frame of mind with no thought to winning or losing (mushin). It is also always better to avoid the fight if you can too. The ones you cannot avoid our ambushes where someone jumps you out of the blue. If they have a knife and have intent on using it, not much you can do but "stop, drop, and roll" (like the fire drill) and hope to minimize the damage.
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Old 05-22-2005, 12:36 PM   #65
CNYMike
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
That sounds like a question of reflexes.
It's not a question of anything, Alex -- it's to illustrate that it takes a lot less physical effort to kill someone with a knife than with a stick or the empty hand. If I want to punch you hard, I have to wind up. If I want to bash your brains in with a stick, again I have to wind up a little bit, so I can build up momentum. Yes, there is such a thing as the one-inch punch from Chinese systems, but there's still a question of a little windup. And no impact weapon can do damage to you while it's being retracted.

But if I have the blade of my knife against your carotid artery, all I have to do is pull my arm back and that's the end of Alex. Even if you manage to hook me in the head, if I sever your carotid, I'm only dead if you hit me really hard; otherwise, you die first. That's all there is to it. No magic, no ki, just a cold hard reality you stubbornly don't want to accept.

I think Larry hit it on the head when he pointed out that an unskilled person will pull a knife to intimidate someone and was not necessarlity prepared to kill you. You might not be here otherwise.

And it can happen very quickly. My Kali instructors like to repeat the story of a little old Filipino man who was found in a park surrounded by some young toughs who'd been cut up really badly. They thought he was covering for someone else when he claimed he disarmed one of the punks and defended himself.

The little old man had a Filipino lawyer, who set up a punching bag in the court room, gave the little old man a knife, and timed in. In one minute, that little old man cut the bag 360 times -- he was making all these quick little cuts.

That's not magic or mystical powers -- it's the reality of the knife. And I know this from having studied Kali beginning in 1997; I took a break through that winter, and picked it up again in 1998, and have done it ever since. I've periodically done knife sparring with Guro Andy (done with a short padded stick), and if it had been a real fight, the slashes to my wrists along would have landed me in deep trouble. And they were almost too quick to block.

And that is why I say you are out of your mind when you equate a knife with the empty hand.
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Old 05-22-2005, 12:48 PM   #66
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Tantodori

Dear Kevin,

It is clear that you have the military perspective

I believe that the "civil" situations can differ slightly. A knife is often not concealed at all, but flashed around to intimidate victims.
Not that it makes much difference for the conclusions you draw.

I do agree with you that an attacker should be regarded as armed, so proper evasive moves should be made - also in something as seemingly mild as a katatedori attack.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Musashi is good, certainly you need to enter a fight in the proper frame of mind with no thought to winning or losing (mushin).
Mushin, empty mind, was certainly an ideal for the samurai philosophers, but it is my impression that Musashi differed from them on that issue, as well as on many other issues.
He states clearly and repeatedly in his book that he goes into the battle to win it, with whatever means. That's his objective, and I would say that he lets it fill his mind.
Well, that's my interpretation of his principles. As usual: I might be wrong

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-22-2005, 01:39 PM   #67
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Of course your objective is to always win. you go in knowing your are going to win. You never fight a battle unless you are going to win. But win you enter that battle you don't consider winning or losing....to do so slows you down and you will surely lose.

This is a timeless principle that is still relevant today.

Didn't explain myself very well. If an attacker shows you his weapon, he is using it as a position of power to coerce you into doing something. His main intent at that point is not to kill, but to coerce you or to protect himself. Assuming he pulled it on you, then he wants something from you, either something you have, a path to what you are blocking, or to satisfiy his ego of power he holds over you.

Your best bet is to quickly figure out what it is that is motivating him and give it to him, unless that includes your life. You've watched too many movies if you think the guy will jump out of a dark alley in front of you and demand your wallet. He will wait until you pass and grab you from behind, that is, unless he too has watched too many movies and is irrational.

I think there are many, many options you have if he jumps in front of you including running the opposite way, finding a block such as a trash can, yelling, talking, giving him your wallet whatever.

If he gets you from behind, well it's probably 50/50. If he hasn't shanked you in the kidney already chances are he just wants something and won't kill you. so complying will probably be best. not to say that he won't, but frankly I am going to probably listen and do what he says instead of posing a threat in a situation in which he clearly has the advantage. You screwed yourself by not paying attention to your surroundings and space and timing so probably not much you can do at this point except pray for mercy.
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Old 05-22-2005, 05:01 PM   #68
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
It's not a question of anything, Alex -- it's to illustrate that it takes a lot less physical effort to kill someone with a knife than with a stick or the empty hand.
No doubt, but you have to get the knife to your opponents body, in the same way that if you want to punch them you have to get your fist to their body and anything which crosses the space between combatants can be blocked or deflected. To me it sounds like your saying chudan tsuki is no problem but chudan tsuki with a knife will always get through and cut or stab.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
But if I have the blade of my knife against your carotid artery, all I have to do is pull my arm back and that's the end of Alex. Even if you manage to hook me in the head, if I sever your carotid, I'm only dead if you hit me really hard; otherwise, you die first. That's all there is to it. No magic, no ki, just a cold hard reality you stubbornly don't want to accept.
Well if I just stand there of course I'm dead. If I take your wrist and move away from the knife I'm safe, obviously with some kind of take down. The question is who has the fastest reflexes?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
And it can happen very quickly. My Kali instructors like to repeat the story of a little old Filipino man who was found in a park surrounded by some young toughs who'd been cut up really badly. They thought he was covering for someone else when he claimed he disarmed one of the punks and defended himself.

The little old man had a Filipino lawyer, who set up a punching bag in the court room, gave the little old man a knife, and timed in. In one minute, that little old man cut the bag 360 times -- he was making all these quick little cuts.

That's not magic or mystical powers -- it's the reality of the knife.
No it's the reality of the man holding the knife, if you change it for another knife he'll still be just as fast.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
And that is why I say you are out of your mind when you equate a knife with the empty hand.
Oh I don't equate them, I just say that most of the difference is inside the mind of the person facing the knife.
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Old 05-22-2005, 06:25 PM   #69
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:

What you've just advocated here is to walk into an Aikido dojo and, after giving somebody a tanto, grabbing them by the wrist.

Let's look at that again shall we?

Aikido?

Knife?

Grab them by the wrist.????

Hello??

What attack do we most train against in Aikido?

Hmmm. Could it be a wrist grab by any chance?
Umm it's an excercise to show that if you control their wrist they'll have a hard time using the knife.
Don't worry though I'll explain the whole wrist taking thing and place it in context.
You grab the wrist to take the knife out of the equation and to take his attention. Now obviously you don't then stand there waiting to be floored like an uke does. So at the same time you use something else to take him out of the equation. My favorite being grabbing the tracea combined with Osoto-otoshi. Now you try defending against a wrist grab when you're being choaked, taken off balance and are also having your legs reaped from under you. Bearing in mind that taking the wrist and throat and kuzushi are simultaneous and the reap is a quater of a second after and this is happening while you think you're attacking, so clear any thoughts you may have of seeing it coming. The whole thing takes about 0.75 seconds.

That's why wrist grabs are always taught as being purely training. In our dojo a grab is explained as a simulated punch. In real life by the time you realise your wrist's been grabbed you've been punched twice.

Remember I'm basing all this on the way I was taught to use a knife which is basically sumerised by either 1) Slash as atemi and stab to finish off 2) Grab and stab 3) Grab, slash and stab. With the slashes going to the thigh, wrists, neck etc.
Appart from all your take downs from behind obviously. Although obviously not in Aikido where we only do all your basic attacks but with a knife.
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Old 05-23-2005, 04:00 AM   #70
Matt Molloy
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
Umm it's an excercise to show that if you control their wrist they'll have a hard time using the knife.
Ahem. Grabbing the wrist doesn't automatically lead to controlling the wrist.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
Don't worry though I'll explain the whole wrist taking thing and place it in context.
Thank you. So kind.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
You grab the wrist to take the knife out of the equation and to take his attention. Now obviously you don't then stand there waiting to be floored like an uke blah....blah.... yadda..yadda....what I'd do in this situation.....and then I woke up....blah....blah...ink you're attacking, so clear any thoughts you may have of seeing it coming. The whole thing takes about 0.75 seconds.
Wow. Just like that?

I had no idea.

0.75 seconds.

Wow!

I assume that they are just letting you do this?

Because if they aren't, you could well be in trouble.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
That's why wrist grabs are always taught as being purely training. In our dojo a grab is explained as a simulated punch.
Strange. Everywhere I've ever trained, if we wanted to train against a punch, we got somebody to try and punch us. Wild but true.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
In real life by the time you realise your wrist's been grabbed you've been punched twice.
But what happened to your quick reactions? Or are you assuming that you're the only one who has them?

What if..*gulp*...They have them too?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
Remember I'm basing all this on the way I was taught to use a knife which is basically sumerised by either yadda...yadda..in my dreams I'm the only winner...yadda...blah..blah.....eck etc.
Appart from all your take downs from behind obviously. Although obviously not in Aikido where we only do all your basic attacks but with a knife.
Sumerised?

Never mind.

Where to start with this mess?

One of the reasons for wrist grabs in Aikido is that the systems of Ju-Jutsu that eventually became modern Aikido were developed by people who would be armed and would possibly have other people trying to neutralize those arms by employing the wrist grab.

"But who on earth would try and stop someone with a tanto by grabbing their wrist?" I hear you cry.

Mr Lawrence?

As other people have so eloquently pointed out, in the case of somebody who knows what they are doing with a knife, they would have used it before you were aware that it was there.

The idea that you would be the hero of some kind of gladiatorial battle in an urban/street setting against some stereotypical "street punk" a la (gods and Jun forgive me for saying his name on Aikiweb) Steven Seagal belongs in the movies and should stay there.

Your posts on this matter started out as arrogant and a little naive, they've become a little bit patronising and daft.

My advice?

Firstly, go to your sensei, tell them that you could stop them using a training tanto by dint of your super reflexes and tactics (which include the idea of immobilising an Aikido sensei by grabbing his/her wrist ) and, when they've wiped the tears of laughter from their eyes see if they'll let you try.

When you've picked yourself up from the dojo floor a couple of times, see if you still think your ideas would work.

Secondly, find a FMA group and see what people who train in a knife based system can really do.

Thirdly, be so good as to let us know if these experiences change your point of view.

Cheers,

Matt.
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Old 05-23-2005, 05:26 AM   #71
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Tantodori and katatedori

This is getting more and more similar to a street brawl

I'm happy to stay out of the fight, but I still feel the need to say something in defense of katatedori - wrist grabs.

I also believe that they were originally important i budo, because they were intended to stop tori from drawing the sword - and of course they should not be regarded as solitary things. Wrists were grabbed, followed up with all kinds of things.

The wrist grab, I find, is an effective beginning for getting control of an opponent. It is easily followed up with breaking the other one's balance, or a pinning (not to mention all kinds of strikes). Also, a good wrist grab is not that very easy to get out of, for the unexperienced. Anyone who ever tried to do a technique on Tamura sensei will know this

I go back to my probability calculations: The skilled tori can start the defense with a wrist grab, quickly followed up by other stuff. If the uke (with or without a knife) is even more skilled - well, I don't have to spell it out.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 05-23-2005, 05:57 AM   #72
makuchg
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Ok, time to chime in. Want to see how effective you are against a knife? Get a white T-shirt and a fat, permanent red marker. Now have an attacker (skilled, unskilled, try different people) attack you (you're wearing the white T-shirt). After the attack, look at yourself for red marks. Keep in mind the marker only has a tip, a knife has the whole blade. Most people are quite surprised at the number of red marks on their arms, hands, and body.

Someone said it earlier, if you fight with knives expect to get cut. From what I've learned, you're going to get cut, the key is keeping the cuts to non-vital areas as best you can. The winner of a knife fight is the guy who is bleeding less at the end.

Gregory Makuch
Wandering Ronin
Chesapeake, VA
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Old 05-23-2005, 07:08 AM   #73
Randathamane
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Not strictly true. You can preempt their attack when you think you are in danger/trouble while they are busy shouting/posturing/sqauring up, whatever.
You are going to instantly know what attack they will perform are you? What, do you have the gift of the force master Jedi? No man can see the future and a fighter who knows nothing knows nothing of posture and so cannot embrace one. One cannot stand in aiki-posture or Kami if they do not know what it is- if anything the aikidoka will lose the edge as they WILL be trying to establish posture....

i have two arms and two legs- which will i use?
How will i use them? round and hook or perhaps the direct strike. But then again you could always go with the uppercut- or even the down cut...
Oh-how about elbows and knees to really do damage- then again i could stay distant, using fast long ranged strikes.

Grappling- didn't think of that, perhaps a sort of rugby tackle- jumping kicks or flying fists. Head butt- there's a goodun.

as i said before- you know not what the enemy will do, as aikido is purely defensive (ref Shihan of the UKA or even Saito sensei) i fail to see how a defender can take the initial initiative of combat- Aikidoka can counter and throw/ lock- but they must fight to the enemies pace and game. They are the ones that determine the speed, they are the ones that dictate the technique, they are the ones that are coming in first.

That's my view on the topic.....

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Old 05-23-2005, 07:27 AM   #74
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:

I assume that they are just letting you do this?

Because if they aren't, you could well be in trouble.
No, you're crushing their wind pipe and taking their balance. It's an either or situation. Either they try and stop you throttling them, which they have a matter of seconds to do before they pass out or they do something about their wrist and either way they're being thrown. I don't see that they have too much of a choice. If you pile your body weight into them (as you would in a life or death situation) or you have strong hands you'll stand a chance of crushing the tracea in which case it's all over for them, simple as that. As far as I know they're dead in about 4 minutes, something like that but they pass out long before that, like 40 seconds or something. So no, they're not just letting you do it.

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
Strange. Everywhere I've ever trained, if we wanted to train against a punch, we got somebody to try and punch us. Wild but true.
Yeah but usually you teach the technique and then you throw in the punch. Keeps the newbies happy.

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
But what happened to your quick reactions? Or are you assuming that you're the only one who has them?

What if..*gulp*...They have them too?
Then it'll be life where anything goes as I've been trying to get past your preconceptions. You're happy to rant on about how fast an expert with a knife is, why can't someone else be just as fast? Yes he has a knife. Yes he knows what he's doing with it, yes he's fast but that's only him and he's only half the equation here. What about the person he's facing? Unlike you I'm not making out that I or anyone else will always win, I'm just pointing out the obvious: The knife expert will not always win either.

That is not arrogance or ignorance, that's life. In the interplay of martial arts, personality and experience anything is possible.

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
One of the reasons for wrist grabs in Aikido is that the systems of Ju-Jutsu that eventually became modern Aikido were developed by people who would be armed and would possibly have other people trying to neutralize those arms by employing the wrist grab.
Actually Ju-jitsu started off as part of knife fighting. Often during the Gempei wars Samurai would end up grappling, certainly the Heike Monogatari makes it out to be this way, and so the tanto was the weapon of choice. Remember though that Ju-jitsu is as much a last resort for a unarmed Samurai as it is a response to being grabbed while armed, which is where tantodori, jodori and all your tachidori came from. During the Sengoku era Ju-jitsu was as full of weapons as any martial art for this reason. On the battlefield you could end up unarmed and facing anything. So you're telling a half truth there.
Remember also that even armed combat involved a lot grappling, kicking and punching there wasn't the Edo period distinction between armed and unarmed yet. Hence Kenjitsu ryu would teach throws, locks and takedowns and Ju-jitsu ryu would teach sword and spear techniques. Martial arts were much more pragmatic and less dogmatic back then purely because all the dogmatic ones got wiped out on the battlefield.
Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
As other people have so eloquently pointed out, in the case of somebody who knows what they are doing with a knife, they would have used it before you were aware that it was there.
Answer me this are they faster or slower without the knife? What is it about the knife itself which makes them any faster than they could be with out a knife? Wing chun is damn fast but you can block the punches or get out of range or do something, roll into their feet, whatever. So why is it that when the knife enters into the equation it's suddenly game over? Your argument is a dogmatic as the belife that Aikido is invincible.
My entire point is that I don't need to be aware of the knife, I just need to be aware of what they're doing with their hands. Like I said earlier basically what you are de facto stating is that learning to use a knife makes you a brilliant boxer because something about training with a knife makes your hand attacks unstoppable. In any amateur match where it's the contact that counts you'd be racking up points like no tommorrow.
Using your argument I could have taken them down before he even got a chance to draw it and claimed the pendant around my neck is unstoppable. It's a poor argument.

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
Firstly, go to your sensei, tell them that you could stop them using a training tanto by dint of your super reflexes and tactics (which include the idea of immobilising an Aikido sensei by grabbing his/her wrist ) and, when they've wiped the tears of laughter from their eyes see if they'll let you try.

When you've picked yourself up from the dojo floor a couple of times, see if you still think your ideas would work.

Secondly, find a FMA group and see what people who train in a knife based system can really do.

Thirdly, be so good as to let us know if these experiences change your point of view.

Cheers,

Matt.
If I'd suggested that I could immobilise them by holding their wrist I'd be daft and all martial arts would consist of grabbing your opponents wrist.
I said I could stop them stabbing me by holding their wrist long enough to floor them. There's a difference.
Now then if I'm up with my Sensei, or anyone else and he asks for Gakyu hamni (or even if he's standing there pondering what he's going to do next) and I rush in, take his wrist and also his throat and step through him and reap his leg what do you think would happen? He's expecting it as much as the Kail expert would be.

Stratagy, stratagy, stratagy. That's why you do martial arts, to learn that in combat brute strength and technique and weapons can all be over come one way or another and then once that realisation is made you realise that everything in martial arts is psychological. Ultimately it's not your body that moves but your mind.
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Old 05-23-2005, 07:28 AM   #75
Randathamane
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
As other people have so eloquently pointed out, in the case of somebody who knows what they are doing with a knife, they would have used it before you were aware that it was there.
Very true- however the schools of tanto drawing and cutting have declined. this is very true and in such an instance- one cannot defend themselves. One asks the question- why bother with martial arts? Reason because nearly all of the population cannot kill you with a single unseen stroke.

Quote:
Steven Seagal belongs in the movies and should stay there.
Now hang on he is 7th Dan and trained at hombu for a while. As far as i am concerned unless you are 7th dan or higher, (So hombu) or are a shihan then i do not see how you can criticize.


Quote:
Firstly, go to your sensei, tell them that you could stop them using a training tanto by dint of your super reflexes and tactics (which include the idea of immobilizing an Aikido sensei by grabbing his/her wrist ) and, when they've wiped the tears of laughter from their eyes see if they'll let you try.
How in gods name do you expect to do a wrist lock with no contact? Ki projection perhaps? Fire ball? Sonic boom?
Sensei comes Tsuki and i tenkan behind him at the same time I grab his wrist, thumb to the back of his hand- i whack Kotegaeshi on and he plummets to the ground- if he did not, the carpacal bones would have been reduced to a powder. Alex is a 3rd kyu in aikido and has experienced more Martial arts to a similar that i would care to name. He does know what he is on about- maybe not to a dan grade level- but he does know this and even gives sensei a run for his money at times.


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