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Old 05-10-2005, 09:50 AM   #26
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

For those interested in doing some research the following URLs may help: http://www.jtrauma.com/ which is the main site for the Journal of Trauma and http://www.europeantrauma.net/ which is its European brother.

Such papers as "Mortality and Prognostic Factors in Penetrating Injuries of the Aorta", "Violence-Related Injury and Intimate Partner Violence in an Urban Emergency Department" and "Stab Wounds to the Head with Intracranial Penetration" should give you all the evidence to convince you that if you are attacked by a knife yeilding maniac you should give your walet and run for it not practice half-learned Aikido techniques.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-10-2005, 08:21 PM   #27
Ian Williams
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Re: techniquies in street fights

I study Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu but hey - we're distant cousins..

I've been watching a lot of fights started by sportsmen (typically in our Aussie Rules football) and a LOT of the punches delivered as a cross between a straight punch and a roundhouse.. it's a sort of diagnonal straight punch to the head with a little bit of roundhouse in it..

In our system we practice a lot against straight punches (karate style) and hugely telegraphed round houses (drunken brawl type sloppy roundhouses) but these quite nasty 'diagonal' punches are a bit of a challenge. I practice 'reflex' sparing with some of the higher belts in our dojo (me, the attacker being able to deliver any attack I wish) and these sorts of punches often result in clean hits to the head.

If you're really interested to know if your techniques will work in a street/real fight situation then it pays to watch real fights and evaluate whether these are the sorts of attacks you're training against.

Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu
Adelaide, South Australia

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure
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Old 05-11-2005, 07:35 PM   #28
eyrie
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

I believe that's called "the cross" - c/f boxing.

Ignatius
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Old 05-12-2005, 06:16 AM   #29
Dazzler
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Wink Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Yann Golanski wrote:
For those interested in doing some research the following URLs may help: http://www.jtrauma.com/ which is the main site for the Journal of Trauma and http://www.europeantrauma.net/ which is its European brother.

Such papers as "Mortality and Prognostic Factors in Penetrating Injuries of the Aorta", "Violence-Related Injury and Intimate Partner Violence in an Urban Emergency Department" and "Stab Wounds to the Head with Intracranial Penetration" should give you all the evidence to convince you that if you are attacked by a knife yeilding maniac you should give your walet and run for it not practice half-learned Aikido techniques.
Very convincing.

Theres not much in my wallet anyway...but no one is having the credit cards from my sock....who would want them ?
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Old 05-13-2005, 03:19 AM   #30
xuzen
 
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Re: techniques in street fights

Quote:
Liam Smith wrote:
would Shomenuchi Eacheo irimi work in a street fight? Would the attacker attack shomenuchi? Or would he just punch or kick? Or would this happen to you ? seeing as I'm a yellow belt please excuse my stupid\ignorant questions
Work is slow today so I have got some time to kill before shift end, so please allow me to answer your questions:-

Q1) Would Shomenuchi Ikkyo Irimi work in a street fight?
A1) Yes. So would any aikido tech that are short, sharp and simple. Think atemi atemi atemi. In a street altercation... go for simple technique.

Q2) Would the attacker attack shomenuchi?
A2) Shomenuchi represent the vertical overhead strike. Yes, I believe it does happen. Beer bottle overhead strike is an example of shomenuchi, ice pick stab is also another example.

Q3) Or would he just punch or kick?
A3) Yeah, why not? As long your opponent has feet and fists, why not?

Q4) Or would this happen to you ?
A4) Dead or alive, not entirely up to mortals, Some divine presence upstairs control issues such as that. However, luck favours those who are prepared.

In a street fight, probably the biggest issue is intent. You must be mentality prepared to bring the opponents down. Going in half hearted will result in your disadvantage, no matter how technically skilled you are. So before you decide on confrontation... size up what and who you are up against. If your intuition tells you that you can defeat him, go for it. if your intuition tells you otherwise, back down and live to fight another day. Oh, don' t forget to train and hone your skill in your dojo when not in street fight.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 05-13-2005, 08:03 AM   #31
Ron Tisdale
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Would the attacker attack shomenuchi?
Who cares? Many styles practice this technique such that shite/nage attacks first. Couldn't care less if uke attacks shomenuchi or not...I'm doing the technique with their face if they don't block my strike.

Ron (in a perfect world that is [which this ain't])

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-13-2005, 06:47 PM   #32
maikerus
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Who cares? Many styles practice this technique such that shite/nage attacks first. Couldn't care less if uke attacks shomenuchi or not...I'm doing the technique with their face if they don't block my strike.

Ron (in a perfect world that is [which this ain't])
Hey! I was just going to say that! I read the whole thread...got to the last post only to find out that Ron pre-empted me. <sigh>

What he said

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 05-15-2005, 08:24 PM   #33
makuchg
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
PS my favourite strike would be yokomen uchi to the neck - far more effective and versatile than any punch.
Just curious, have you ever tried this in an actual altercation? I only ask because small target strikes tend to be secondary attacks if, and only if a primary large area attack opens up the vulnerability.

This is such a limited strike and you are using the smaller bones in your hand as the impact weapon, it is impractical (unless you have trained to strengthen these bones). Any strike which uses small bones as impact weapons is weak. A preferred strike would be a palm heel, which uses the large bones in the hand.

Gregory Makuch
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Old 05-16-2005, 07:53 AM   #34
Nick Simpson
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Re: techniquies in street fights

The Tegatana? Wouldnt this strike be with the edge of the palm/hand, not with the fingers and therefore roughly comparable to the palm heel? (palm heel is also nice, I agree).

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 05-16-2005, 09:54 AM   #35
samurai_kenshin
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Irimi nage is good, I think. The palm heel is probably one of the best attacks you can do with your hand. Yes, the beer bottle is alot like a shomen strike (well, for me it's a gatorade bottle, but more or less the same concept)

Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.
-Barry LePatner
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Old 05-16-2005, 09:26 PM   #36
Ian Williams
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Re: techniquies in street fights

I'll second the palm heel and raise you a hammer first or a back fist.. I'm not much into straight punching solid things - that hurts..

Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu
Adelaide, South Australia

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure
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Old 05-17-2005, 08:40 AM   #37
Randathamane
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Re: techniquies in street fights

How do you know they are not trained?
How do you know they are not drugged up?
How do you know that they are not faster then you?
How do you know you can actually foresee the attack?
How do you know you could make a dodge?
How do you know which way they will come?
How do you know it is not a feint?
How do you know it is not a deception?
How do you know it is not a combo?
How do you know if he is alone?
How do you know if you have help?
How do you know if you are in the right?
How do you know he is not better than you at fighting?
How do you know he hasn't go weapons?
How do you know if he is armored?
How do you know he is going to attack?

How do you know?- You don't.

A. you can only defend yourself from an attack- that means he has the edge, because he takes the initiative.
B. Every move you make CAN be countered. there is a way out of everything
C. You now have to respond or be contempt to block and parry all day
D. If you block and parry all day you only need to make one mistake...
E. You WILL make that mistake.

street fights are one of the hardest things on earth. Pitched battle- no problem backup left, right and center- if the technique doesn't work disappear to fight another while the allies deal with him.

In a street fight you need to be able to move in whatever posture you find yourself in. Kotegaeshi is the best. You can do it on the cut, you can do it on the jab you can even move to grab them and do it. thats my opinion along with the facts above. May be wrong, but it has served me well thus far.

if you are going to do aikido in a street confrontation then pick the simple, quick trows that send them down for the count.

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Old 05-18-2005, 06:42 AM   #38
Nick Simpson
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Re: techniquies in street fights

" You can only defend yourself from an attack- that means he has the edge, because he takes the initiative. "

Not strictly true. You can preempt their attack when you think you are in danger/trouble while they are busy shouting/posturing/sqauring up, whatever.

Of course you cant really defend against a sucker punch. In that case it is how you respond after the initial blow that will dictate your success.

Personally I probably wouldnt bother with throws in a real combat situation, unless they were a gift that I could not miss (which is extremely rare in a fight), I would just strike and possibly lock/pin depending on the situation. No pins or lengthy locks if there are multiple opponents of course.

I have found that the theories of aikido work best for real, e.g. mai, irimi, atemi, timing and kokyu.

Techniques should never be forced, they should just happen.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 05-18-2005, 07:08 AM   #39
Aikilove
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Re: techniquies in street fights

I second that. Elsewere in this forum I described about an event where I was attacked by two men (punch+kick). What happend? The first ones punch I sidestepped (to his inside) and he lost balance and fell efter some contact from my part. The second one came with a kick . I sidesteped and irimi to his inside with my hands raised. My movement coupled with his momentum sent his upper body backwards, and that was the end of that.

That is, I moved - then technique happened. My technique became strikes since our relative momentum was opposed and great. (I didn't strike mind you, it's just that to him my hand at his torso/neck became a strike at that speed.

For me I have never thought about technique in these situations (not many that's for sure) only to move. Actually I haven't thought much at all. I just moved.

*Don't know if that gave much to this discussion actually!*

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 05-18-2005, 07:16 AM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Jacob, I think your post gave a lot! That is pretty much the way I'd like things to work...and from what little I've seen, its pretty darn good aikido.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-18-2005, 07:59 AM   #41
Nick Simpson
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Also sounds good to me Jakob!

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 05-18-2005, 09:15 PM   #42
makuchg
 
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Remember the fight begins long before the first physical contact. The fight begins in the mind. A prepared person has fought the fight subconciously and is prepared mentally, well before the surprise attack. Situational awareness is the first step to street fight success.

I've posted this in other threads (don't remember if I did here or not), the formula for success in actual combat (real life and death)-
Survival = Escalating effective violence faster than your opponent.

If he's willing to punch, I'm willing to gauge out his eyes! If he wants to bite, I'm willing to shatter his mandible! If he's willing to pull out a knife, I'm willing to put two rounds in his chest!

If you are training in martial arts for self-defense, not just philosophical ideals and you are not training the mind for combat, you are failing in your training.

Gregory Makuch
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Old 05-19-2005, 08:11 AM   #43
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
It's cool, lots of people are still asking this question after years and years of training. My recommendation is to go somewhere where they actually hit each other, not a school where they pretend to hit each other, but a boxing school, or a muay Thai school, something like this and practice your techniques. Find out what happens, then you can come back and tell all of us. If you stay there long enuff, you'll prolly learn Aikido better then most.

-Chris Hein

This was one issue I strived to work on at my former place of training. It was so annoying when uke would attack, I would stand there, and then uke would not follow through with the attack and stop before I got hit. I would do that from time to time when I detect that an attack was not altruistic in intent and ask "what are you doing"?

In time with all the deshi, I eventually got everyone to understand the importance of a real attack. It is possible to yield a real attack and still maintain order and a safe environment. This is crucial when training aikido.

Through this type of hard training, I became relaxed and able to respond witout thinking because thee is no time to think. Eventually you can see the attacks before they happen if that makes sense. Anyone else experience this?
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Old 05-19-2005, 10:15 AM   #44
CNYMike
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote:
.... If you are training in martial arts for self-defense, not just philosophical ideals and you are not training the mind for combat, you are failing in your training.
Except that in our society, there are legal restrictions on how much force a private citizen can use to defend himself or herself. Which is probably why one of my instructors has always said that your goals in self defense are survival and escape. Note that leaving the other person lying on the street in a pool of their own blood is not on the list.
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Old 05-19-2005, 10:18 AM   #45
Ron Tisdale
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
It's cool, lots of people are still asking this question after years and years of training. My recommendation is to go somewhere where they actually hit each other, not a school where they pretend to hit each other,
This is interesting...I have bruises on my fore arms today from practicing strikes and blocks for half an hour so that the 4th dan teaching last night could be sure we were really attacking before moving on to technique. We used front strike, side strike, and thrust punch. While these are the typical aikido attacks (they are not jabs, crosses, etc from boxing), we really do strike, and if someone doesn't block move and atemi, they can and do get popped. One brown belt (who's testing on sunday for shodan) is particularly glad my control is still up to par...he'd have a broken nose if it wasn't.

I'm getting tired of listening to people who don't train seriously in aikido put it down...if you didn't or don't do these things where you trained/train, fine. Don't extend your practice to the rest of us. People cross train for all kinds of reasons...but we've found the paradigm in our aikido training to work fine for what we expect of it. Doesn't mean it couldn't be broader or different in some way...but it does seem to work for what we want. If you want to do MMA fine...just do it. And if you want to do aikido in addition, that's fine too.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-19-2005, 04:06 PM   #46
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Except that in our society, there are legal restrictions on how much force a private citizen can use to defend himself or herself. Which is probably why one of my instructors has always said that your goals in self defense are survival and escape. Note that leaving the other person lying on the street in a pool of their own blood is not on the list.
Almost every state (any lawyers feel free to chime in) has deadly force laws that allow the use of deadly force to prevent death or serious bodily harm or to stop a violent felony such as kidnapping, rape, etc. Under such laws, you are permitted to kill someone. Now I'm not advocating using violence as your first choice, what I am advocating is being mentally prepared. All the training in the world won't do you any good if you are not mentally prepared to use it on another human being. It is easy to apply shihonage in training, it is another thing to apply it to an attacker and break their shoulder and elbow.

Now most states will allow you to use escalting force to protect yourself. Obviously you can't kill the drunk in a bar because he swings at you, but a technique to avoid or immobilize is fully justified.

My point was the combat is much more mind than technique so it is imperative you train your mind for the reality of the situation.

Gregory Makuch
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Old 05-19-2005, 11:56 PM   #47
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Re: techniquies in street fights

just one of my thoughts on this:
Most sreet brawlers are posturing egomaniacs with an insatiable lust for superiority, each one capable of unimaginable evil (actually not unlike politicians). At their weakest moments, like when they're posturing, they are likely to be unaware of you entering, especially if they're high or drunk. I'd stil suggest getting out of there, because as said before in this thread "you don't know if they have weapos or backup (in those cases, when you can't get away, thank god for tanto dori...)

Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.
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Old 05-20-2005, 05:57 AM   #48
Nick Simpson
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Wouldnt even bother trying to defend against a knife or take one. Im currently dealing with the repercussions of a cut from in dojo training where I knew the attack was coming, what attack it was and I still f*ucked it up, the end result isnt something I want to experiance again in whatever shape or form.

Maybe if I also had a knife I might begin to think about facing an aggressor with a knife, but I would expect to get cut. Its how little you get cut and where you receive these cuts that will determine your chance of survival. (But saying as im not in the habit of carrying a knife then this is a moot point )

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 05-20-2005, 04:07 PM   #49
Ketsan
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Wouldnt even bother trying to defend against a knife or take one. Im currently dealing with the repercussions of a cut from in dojo training where I knew the attack was coming, what attack it was and I still f*ucked it up, the end result isnt something I want to experiance again in whatever shape or form.

Maybe if I also had a knife I might begin to think about facing an aggressor with a knife, but I would expect to get cut. Its how little you get cut and where you receive these cuts that will determine your chance of survival. (But saying as im not in the habit of carrying a knife then this is a moot point )
Knives are pretty much a psychological thing. If you deal with them as an empty hand attack there isn't much problem with them.
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Old 05-20-2005, 10:42 PM   #50
CNYMike
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Re: techniquies in street fights

Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote:
.... Now I'm not advocating using violence as your first choice, what I am advocating is being mentally prepared ....

That's a good distinctions to make, because my Kali instructor periodically reminds us to be mindful of things like that. The cops and the courts can be predisposed to think a trained martial artist should be able to handle the situation without using excessive force, so if they think you have, it's actually worse for you. It's an important issue one has to be mindful of; that's why I brought it up.
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