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Old 05-04-2005, 05:17 PM   #51
NagaBaba
 
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Honistly I think Rokkyo is a more practical technique then Ikkyo.
-Chris
Doing ikkyo you have more choices, how to protect attacker. Rokkyo tend to damage elbow very quickly.

Also for henka waza, once you are in position to do rokkyo and it doesn't work, there is not so many options to do follow up, and you are very engaged with all your body in very specific position trying to control him. From ikkyo position, it is another story. There are infinite possibility to switch to any technique and any direction.

Third point is, who in the world attacks with straight punches? -- only aikidoka

99.99% of these kind of attacks are jabs, and ikkyo is more appropriate to such common attacks.

Nagababa

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Old 05-04-2005, 06:43 PM   #52
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Szczepan,

I think I sort of get what you are saying, only some video would make it sure. With no video, let me say...

It seems you are working off of the premise that highly skilled fighters don't attack with straight (prolonged extended) arms, and because the training applications that you have seen have folks practicing waki-gatame against straight (prolonged extended) arms, waki-gatame to some degree must be questioned tactically.

If this is the case, I would say that the final conclusion is a jump in logic. Rather, one can only say that the particular training method is something that should be questioned tactically - not the technique itself. All statistics and percentages aside, I guess one could say that there are some problems here with what most by default come to expect when they want to apply waki-gatame. However, while we may say that skilled fighters may not at all attack with designs so open to waki-gatame when they are punching, two facts remain: 1. There are extremely few skilled fighters (I personally would be prone to saying there are none) that have not had their arm straightened within a physical confrontation; and 2. There are extremely few skilled fighters (again, I personally would be prone to saying there are none) that have not for one reason or another opted to straighten their arm within a physical confrontation. In the first case, the person attempting waki-gatame is employing Target Creation in order to create a tactical viability for that technique. In the second case, the person attempting waki-gatame is employing Target Availability in order to create a tactical viability for that technique.

Final point: While it may be true that skilled attackers don't attack with straight arms, it is not true that arms can never straighten from within a physical confrontation. Hence, even if one feels that waki-gatame is over-dependent upon the straight arm, one cannot say that waki-gatame can never work and/or will never find its place from which it can work.

As for protecting uke, I would rather not protect my attacker by fighting him/her. And I would not want to get into that Westbrook and Ratti "gospel" of minimum damage, so I would not want to compare ikkyo and rokkyo in terms of morality, etc. Still, I can say, for me, what makes waki-gatame the most effective, especially against big strong folks that don't want to do whatever you want them to do (or whatever), is that energy should not be stifled in the elbow. Rather, energy should, as in Ikkyo, travel up the arm into the shoulder and head area. For a Nage to risk breaking and/or injuring uke's elbow (or an attacker's elbow), such a Nage will also have to risk the technique failing, as its mechanical advantage, and thus its chance for success, is greatly reduced whenever energy is localized at the elbow (and the chance for injury at the elbow is increased).

In the clip I offered, I am employing Target Creation by straightening out the arm in order to create the opening for Rokkyo. One can also see this, I feel, in Kisshomaru's example - when the waza in question uses the length of the jo to lead and extend uke's arm into a position more harmonious with waki-gatame.

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:54 PM   #53
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Thank you David, very nice analysis. Let me think about it. And sorry, no video for the moment.

Nagababa

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Old 05-04-2005, 08:29 PM   #54
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Also I will add that you don't need straight arm to start wakigatamae.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-04-2005, 08:34 PM   #55
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

In order to keep room for what Szczepan is saying, Peter, perhaps you could describe what position of the arm is optimal for waki-gatame to be employed - like, what delineates the window of opportunity for this technique. I ask, because I can see where what one might call a "bent" arm could cause a lot of problems for such a technique.

d

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Old 05-04-2005, 09:05 PM   #56
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Hi David;

As you know most Aikido techniques have an omote and an ura.

[Peter cracks his fingers before attempting the unsatisfactory - describing technique using keyboard].

With our tanto strikes the arm is never locked straight in any case. There is a forward and a withdrawing movement with very little time (effectively none) in the transition period. So by way of example.

Perform taisabaki to the inside of the strike grabbing for the lower part of the forearm with both hands (the actual target of the grab tends to be higher sliding down into position). Drop the elbows, arch back and twist the body while bringing your hands up and over. You are taking uke forward and to the side - his arm will be straightened by your action if the timing is right.

If your timing is off or uke is withdrawing tanto the ura variation simply takes uke in the direction he is moving and to the same side. Less of a body twist is required in the ura version. In both cases strong body movement will act to straighten that arm.

Again in our little version of randori this technique works quite often. Very simple to do.

Hope this helps.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:55 PM   #57
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Before I'm misunderstood let me also point out that attempting to initiate this technique on a withdrawing tanto is a lost cause - far better to follow the technique in with an atemi-waza or a different kansetuwaza (usually to the outside of uke). If the arm is withdrawn completely advantage shifts to the resistant uke. The grab is initiated during the tanto strike - omote and ura is decided by what follows.

In Judo my opponents grip was at the front of my dogi - his arm was bent and quite strong. I put both hands to his wrist and torqued my body moving back and to the side rolling over to control the shoulder. Another variation which worked like a charm - might not the next time with the same person though.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-04-2005, 11:07 PM   #58
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Doing ikkyo you have more choices, how to protect attacker. Rokkyo tend to damage elbow very quickly.

Also for henka waza, once you are in position to do rokkyo and it doesn't work, there is not so many options to do follow up, and you are very engaged with all your body in very specific position trying to control him. From ikkyo position, it is another story. There are infinite possibility to switch to any technique and any direction.

Third point is, who in the world attacks with straight punches? -- only aikidoka

99.99% of these kind of attacks are jabs, and ikkyo is more appropriate to such common attacks.
First of all your likelihood to do anything off a good jab is slim to none. I think I can prove it if you let me jab at you a few times!

Second, I'm not to interested in protecting an attacker. If you play with the bull, your going to get the horn. Wakigatame is a great control hold though.

Third, if you read my post, you'll note that I did wakigatame not from a punch, but from a push. It worked, debate over. You can keep your knife at home.

As far as many techniques to choose from, there are a bunch. Also, when your attacker is distracted, off balance, pushing on you etc. his arm will extend.

In reality, there's very few techniques your going to do immediately after someone launches a hook, cross, jab, uppercut, etc. You have to move out of the way, break balance, and see what happens.

Don't you do this? If not, it's obvious why you don't think wakigatame would work.

I never try to do a particular technique (this will get you in a trap), the appropriate technique will show itself once movement starts.
Your attacker will walk right into something.
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:38 AM   #59
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

I teach 3 follow ups from Rokkyo that work awesomely.
You are right, no one attacks with straight Punch's (not even Aikidoka if they are smart!). I never expected to get it from a punch. Usually from someone straight arming you to keep you at bay. Or someone sticking something in your face, like a gun, knife, finger, what ever. I under stand what you're saying about straight arm attacks, but people when resisting will try and do the opposite of what ever you are trying to control them with. If you are using an ikkyo they will often straight the arm in order to turn it elbow down for an escape, thats another time rokkyo will come into effect. As far as controlling with out hurting, that depends on how big, and how good your attacker is.

-Chris Hein
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:22 AM   #60
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
You are right, no one attacks with straight Punch's (not even Aikidoka if they are smart!).
Shomenate. If the attacking arm isn't straight (or perhaps I should say "unbending"), it isn't going to be effective. It isn't a punch, but it is atemi.

Wakigatamae is the "standard" counter to shomenate in the Shodokan syllabus. (By which I mean thats the counter that is in the randori no kata no ura waza.)

Sean
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:51 PM   #61
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

I disagree, I don't belive your arms should ever be locked straight. they may go straight, but only for a second.

-Chris
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Old 05-05-2005, 05:18 PM   #62
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Chris,

I think Sean made it clear that he meant something quite different from "locked straight" when he wrote "perhaps I should say 'unbending'".

If I may, I think Szczepan's critique comes alive when one suggests that he/she should or could execute Rokkyo against a knife or a gun that is stuck in one's face. Such a training scenario, I would agree, should raise some tactical questions. However, I feel such a scenario should raise similar questions even if one were to "respond" with Ikkyo, Nikyo, Sankyo, or what have you. In such cases, Rokkyo is not the problem. The issue here is not the tactical architecture of waki-gatame - that's not what opens things up to the charge of being delusional" (should one want to make that charge). The issue is the over-all reasoning of its application - this is what exposes the whole scenario (not the waza per se) up to the charge of being "delusional."

In my opinion, anyone teaching defenses against (for example) a firearm or a knife should be trained in attacking with those weapons. And, in my experience, anyone that is trained in fighting with a firearm or a knife is never going to recommend that, first, you "stick it out in your opponent's face, nor, second, that you can deal with such an attack with waki-gatame. If these are the kind of training scenarios that Szczepan has in mind when he is raising his criticisms, then I too will have to agree with him - there's a whole lot of "self-deception" going on (only I would make the distinction between the waza itself and the training scenario).

Peter, thanks for the effort. I realize that that is more difficult to do than one might think at first. If I'm understanding you correctly, you are sort of describing what would fall under "Target Creation" - using the terms I used above.

I'll see if I can find some things that we can all look at that might make room for more of what Szczepan is saying.

dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-05-2005, 06:40 PM   #63
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

David,

I agree that discussing what to do against armed attackers should not be taken lightly. I also agree that people trained in the use of firearms are not likely to stick them in your face. However, most people who commit crimes with firearms are not trained in their use. Often times they want something, and are hoping the gun will intimidate you enough to give it to them without having to shoot you. If you keep the line of the bore off of your body a gun cannot hurt you, and properly done rokkyo will accomplish this. Look, I'm not saying it's a desirable situation, I'm not saying it's easy or that you can't get hurt. You have to make spit second decisions sometimes. If the decision is to be shot trying to take a gun that is in my face, or getting tied up and watching my wife get raped in front of me, I would like to think that I would choose the former. I'm not trying to be paranoid, but things like this do happen.

Michael
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Old 05-05-2005, 09:09 PM   #64
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the reply.

Indeed, all kinds of things happen. Moreover, one cannot REALLY say what one is likely to see and/or not see when it comes to the totality of real life situations - that is what makes real life "real life." I can concede that point here. Equally, I can agree with the fact that Rokkyo has a redundancy between its Angle of Deflection and its Angle of Deviation (meaning, you go one way in relation to the Line of Attack, the attacking object goes the other way), such that design-wise, Rokkyo is capable of keeping a firearm's line of fire off target (i.e. your body). In addition, yes, there are split decisions that have to be made. Moreover, yes, the lesser evil between risking being shot while attempting to disarm someone and my wife being raped in front of me is the former and not the latter. Nevertheless, it is a long way from all of these things to the act of systematizing one's training curriculum responsibly -- whether or not one is doing so along or for such lines.

For example, in real life, people also often throw weak strikes -- strikes that are not connected to the majority of their mass, that are slow, and that are telegraphed, strikes that might actually hurt the person throwing it (e.g. at the shoulder, elbow, wrist, and fingers) more than the person they are attempting to strike with such a "weapon". When we hear critiques against Aikido, by aikidoka and non-aikidoka alike, leveled at the way a lot of folks do Yokomenuchi (i.e. weak, telegraphed, opened, vulnerable, slow), for example, do we who take our training seriously satisfy such critiques by saying, "You know, a lot of folks are not trained to strike at someone, so actually we are training more for reality than if we were to train against someone that actually knew how to strike when we are training against such lame attacks," or how about if we were to say, "The truth is that lame-ass strikes do happen in real life, so one cannot say we are not training realistically when we train against such weak strikes"?

While there is of course certain logic to such rebuttals, it only satisfies one part of the critique that is often raised by conscientious martial artists like Szczepan. The critique, to remind us all, after all is two-fold: First, it suggests that such training is not realistic; and second it suggests that such training leads to delusion. The logic in such replies, which for me would also include yours, does indeed satisfy the first prong. However, such rebuttals do not satisfy the second prong. Why? Because, sticking with my example, people that train against weak, slow, telegraphed strikes, strikes that are more likely to hurt the person throwing it than the person being struck, never systematize this aspect of the scenario. They only systematize the naked mis-idealized form. The "poor" of "poor form" is usually dropped from the training curriculum. One just does "the form."

Allow me to explain: When you see folks training against weak, slow, telegraphed Yokomenuchi, or when you see folks training with Rokkyo against a knife that is stuck in your face or a firearm that is stuck in your face, you don't see folks equally making use of the fact that they are training against something inferior, lame, or unsophisticated. You never see an instructor say, "Okay, today we are going to learn Irimi Nage against someone that strikes slowly, weakly, incorrectly, and probably has a greater chance of hurting themselves than you -- let's all practice that please." Rather, they just do it. In addition, because the dojo and the instructor make up two aspects of a system of authority, things, particularly unsaid things, come to take on an air of authenticity. Problems arise because authenticity does not always cover 100% of reality -- or at least not always the part of reality we want it to cover. In time, no one realizes that they are training for a reality that is present only when facing weak, slow, untrained attackers. In time, people come to wrongly believe (delusion) that they are training not against attacks that are possible in reality but against attacks that are authentic and thus embrace huge or important parts or all of Reality. That is the real problem here.

For me, the cycle of delusion can end in two ways: One, as teachers we can try and orient our training not toward the totality of "anything and everything can happen in reality" but rather toward those aspects of reality that lend themselves more toward a sophistication of our martial attributes and martial understanding; and/or two, as teachers, if we are going to teach something that requires that our opponent be less-trained, less-skilled, slower, weaker, less willing to commit an act of violence than we are, and/or if we are going to teach "last chance," "do or die," "lesser of two evil," techniques, we should say that is exactly what we are doing. This is how delusion can be combated.

In what has to be considered a MERE two decades of training in comparison to other folks that visit this forum, I can tell you, while I have seen and practiced (in and outside of Aikido) waki-gatame against both the knife and gun in your face and against the lunging straight knife thrust to the gut, I have never once seen or heard an instructor say, "This is a do or die technique that you should only choose as the lesser two evils," or "This is something you can do against an unskilled person who is slower and weaker than you and doesn't really know how to attack with a firearm (or a knife)." Have you? Has anyone? I wonder how many students such an instructor would keep -- or at least how many students would keep faith in such an instructor.

When my own firearms and knife training first started under my instructor, and I began to realize just what part of reality waki-gatame against a knife or gun in one's face was dealing with, I was not too interested in it anymore. It became a topic unworthy of so much attention. Why? Because it could kind of be dealt with indirectly -- by learning more about how to attack properly with a firearm and/or a knife. That is to say, as I learned more about authentic firearm and knife practices, I became more able to recognize exactly when something like a Rokkyo could become part of an authentic response. This came about by never again practicing Rokkyo against a knife or a firearm being stuck in your face -- NOT by practicing it against such things. In the same way, by practicing and training against authentic Yokomenuchi, and though not training for every part of reality (which does include weak unsophisticated strikes), one can come to recognize weak strikes for what they are and address them in authentic ways. What is important is that delusion is being continually combated throughout one's training -- because it forever remains under the gaze of honesty, truth, and self-reflection (i.e. authenticity).

Yes, folks can stick a knife in your face. Yes, the lesser evil is to risk the disarm over letting a loved one be violated physically and spiritually in front of you. However, if you want to really deal with these types of situations, training against or with scenarios that are more authentic is what will allow that to happen. Though your position does not state this, it does support it, and thus warrants the caveat: One should not rely upon the fact that reality includes weak, slow, lame attacks, to legitimate one's own practice against such things and thus to suggest that one's own practice is authentic and free of delusion.

On the practical side -- after all my knife and firearm training, were I to teach waki-gatame through such scenarios (i.e. against a knife or firearm stuck in your face), without the explicit stating of what exactly I was relying upon (i.e. a weaker, untrained, attacker), and should my deshi attempt such a thing in "real life" and get killed, though there would be no law for it, I would consider myself guilty of a crime, and, from here, I would find it impossible to live through the guilt and lack of responsibility on my part as teacher. I cannot teach such things in good conscience. There are other, more responsible ways, of introducing and cultivating the martial principles and attributes particular to waki-gatame. There are other, more responsible ways, of introducing and cultivating the marital principles and attributes particular to such possible situations that you described. This is my position.

david

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Old 05-05-2005, 10:12 PM   #65
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

I don't understand how you knowing how to use a weapon against a person, address's the issue of someone who doesn't know how to use a weapon attacking you. You can still be killed by an untrained assailant with a firearm. What should one do if you have a gun in your face. what technique is better?

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Old 05-05-2005, 10:43 PM   #66
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Well said David, situation drills such as knife and gun defense only show principles, and not reality, but I think they are still important to learn nonetheless.

An example I can relate is this: I learned Ude-Gatame from the san kata tanto attacks, and that was my only exposure to it at the time of the story. One version I learned locks uke's wrist against your neck and shoulder and you control his arm with your arms. To me this seemed very impractical to have a knife so close to your neck, but I still had to learn it.

I got in a street altercation soon after, and when I had my back turned, a guy tried to get me in a headlock using his right arm around my neck. I didn't see him, but I felt his arm slide on the back of my neck, my subconscious must have recognized something, because i brought my left arm up behind his elbow, and we both fell to the ground. I had the lock on this guys arm, and he couldn't do anything. I got to my knees and kept the lock. I also got a tore ligament in my left knee somehow during the process.

Anyway, training drills, while unrealistic, do have a part in training. I realized that you are actually learning things that might not have anything to do with a knife or a gun attack even if you are training against them.
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Old 05-06-2005, 01:39 AM   #67
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote:
I realized that you are actually learning things that might not have anything to do with a knife or a gun attack even if you are training against them.

Hi Tim,

I can agree with all you said. Especially this part I am quoting up above. However, the questions for me are, first, how many folks see through things to the level you demonstrate here, and, second, how difficult do we make it for folks to see through things to such desired-for and quite reasonable ends. Like I said, if folks that teach these things would say things like this at the onset, I would have no problem with any of this - you know - if they said: "Hey, we are going to learn this against a knife attack, but it's not very realistic or authentic in that sense. However, you will be able to gain the underlying principles nevertheless and thus you will come to find more reasonable places in which to apply this technique all on your own."

That would be great.

Hi Chris,

I think Tim gave an answer here - in that he learned one thing and applied it in a different situation. That's how. After all, it would be impossible to hold that one can or even should try to train for every specific situation directly. As long as one's training is principle-based, one can address many different situations by studying one or a even just a few. For example, one does not need to train for and/or directly experience every possible punch in order to address most probable punches and/or even punches that one has never seen - AS LONG AS ONE'S TRAINING IS PRINCIPLE-BASED. Moreover, this increases exponentially if one's training is multifaceted. For example, though one may not practice waki-gatame against a knife, it does not mean that one does not practice waki-gatame. Thus, one's skill with waki-gatame does indeed increase over the years - just through other training (i.e. against a wrist grab or a lapel grab, etc.). Combined with other skills, such as the skill of fighting with firearms and/or knives, a person thus trained can, in my opinion, more likely perform a better waki-gatame against someone sticking a knife in their face than a person that just does that technique as part of an action-reaction choreography and/or scenario.

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-06-2005, 03:22 AM   #68
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

David,

I basically agree with what you said. Especially about standing behind what you teach, and the importance of learning how to use a particular weapon to be able to defend against that weapon. When I teach empty hand techniques against weapons I always clearly state that it is last ditch and that arming yourself is always the better option. That is if you cannot or choose not to remove yourself from the situation. I also say your likelihood of being injured or killed is high. No one has ever quit based on this that I know of, and most of them respect me more for my honesty (especially law enforcement guys). Maybe more instructors should try it.

Here's where I disagree with you. Your comparison of firearms to punches just doesn't make sense. Train against technically correct, quick, powerful punches, because you will be able to then handle poor, weak punches. If you reverse it, and a good puncher take a shot at you you'll be in a world of hurt. On the other hand, someone who is properly trained in the use of firearms and has already decided that they have no qualms about killing you will never let you get within six feet of them before you have hot lead ripping through your body. By the way, I tell my classes this also. I shoot all the time, and I wouldn't poke, and prod people with guns or wave them in their face, but I wouldn't be robbing people either. If I drew my gun on someone, I would already have decided that any further non-compliance on their part will result in me shooting them. With that being the case, unless your technique is shooting lightning bolts out of you fingers, you are pretty much relying on them making a mistake.

Michael
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Old 05-06-2005, 09:02 AM   #69
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:
Your comparison of firearms to punches just doesn't make sense. Train against technically correct, quick, powerful punches, because you will be able to then handle poor, weak punches. If you reverse it, and a good puncher take a shot at you you'll be in a world of hurt.
Hi Michael,

Thanks for replying.

Could you explain this a bit more. In my mind, this is what I was saying about training against well-executed strikes. Not sure where the difference lies.

Thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-06-2005, 07:56 PM   #70
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Hey David,

Sorry if I wasn't clear. This was the rest of my post that you quoted:

"On the other hand, someone who is properly trained in the use of firearms and has already decided that they have no qualms about killing you will never let you get within six feet of them before you have hot lead ripping through your body. By the way, I tell my classes this also. I shoot all the time, and I wouldn't poke, and prod people with guns or wave them in their face, but I wouldn't be robbing people either. If I drew my gun on someone, I would already have decided that any further non-compliance on their part will result in me shooting them. With that being the case, unless your technique is shooting lightning bolts out of you fingers, you are pretty much relying on them making a mistake."

To summarize, if someone has the drop on you with a gun and understands that distance is their friend, there's not much you can do. Certainly no empty hand techniques. My point was that with the right training bare hand techniques work against well executed strikes, but no bare hand techniques work against the proper implementation of firearms. I thought you were comparing apples to oranges.

Michael
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Old 05-06-2005, 08:56 PM   #71
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Michael,

Thanks for getting back to the thread.

My comparison was between authentic attacks within the realm of firearms and the realm of strikes (i.e. yokomenuchi). I was not trying to say that one could fulfill the other - only that they (all tactics) should share an authenticity as far as their own respective fields go. Basically, I was trying to suggest that if we do not accept weak yokomenuchi as part of training against strikes, we can't really accept weak or dumb firearm attacks either when we are dealing with firearm defenses - that kind of thing. Hope that makes more sense.

thanks,
d

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Old 05-06-2005, 10:34 PM   #72
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

my thoughts on Rokkyo.

Ikkyo gives you alot of options...but so does rokkyo. for ex, from Ikkyo you can transfer to any technique you have except maybe some throws. From Rokkyo, you can transfer pressure to do any number of things....transfer into a sankyo, shihonage, nanakyo, ect, as well as a number of diffrent breaks and some of the advanced drops and throws. really, i cant say that Ikkyo is better than Rokkyo...one of the greatest stregnths of aiki is the fact that all the techniques can blend into one.

as to the straight punch only thing: you can do rokkyo off of a hook or a uppercut too, it isnt even more difficult, just less practiced

what it really boils down to is if you are using mushin as you should, you dont have any idea what you are going to do or how it will come about, dont belive me have your attackers come faster during multiples. you ARE more likely to preform an Ikkyo in a real situation mostly because as the first technique it is the one you have trained the most, and it is reinforced in a number of early techniques, including variations of nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, hakkyo, ect.

Ikkyo is a bread and butter technique, but who can say that when someone actually punches at you you will do Ikkyo over Rokkyo? whos to say that you wont do a kote-gaeshi where an irimi nage would have happened? it is really a moot point to argue "this technique is more effective than that one" and if done properly the pressure on rokkyo should be in the shoulder and neck instead of the elbow...honestly if someone attacks me out of the blue, i'm not going to go out of my way to hurt them, infact i'll do what i can not to, but i didnt ask them to attack me and under the law, atleast in the US, it is there problem as long as i did not deliberately hurt them.

one last though from me on rokkyo: Rokkyo is the "bow and arrow" technique, it came from mainly samurai who trained extensively in archery, and to them the motion involved was perfectly natural and i'd put money that they would preforme Rokkyo alot more frequently than Ikkyo. Use whatever is natural to you and whatever comes about, because if you are angry that you did rokkyo to an attacker and you wanted ikkyo instead and try to transition rokkyo into ikkyo (something that i find VERY difficult) then there might be one less aiki practitioner in the world.
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Old 05-07-2005, 12:48 AM   #73
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

I think Michael is saying that there are no realistic empty handed techniques against realistic strong firearm attacks. You would never be in range of a trained person, I'm not going to let you with in range of me if I think you're a threat, which is the only reason I would draw my firearm. I'm not playing with you if I draw a weapon. At least I think thats what he's saying.

-Chris
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Old 05-07-2005, 12:39 PM   #74
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
as to the straight punch only thing: you can do rokkyo off of a hook or a uppercut too, it isn't even more difficult, just less practiced.
I'd like to see how this would happen. If you have a video, gif animation etc. let me know the link. I'm not saying your wrong, I just can't envision it myself.

I'm talking about a correctly thrown hook or uppercut from someone who has been trained in boxing. Not a hook or uppercut by a fellow student that hasn't been trained correctly.

The difference is night and day between the two. Also, with the hook or uppercut, the attackers arm is real close to the attackers body, and if your to close, he will throw a cross or a good jab as a followup because you are way inside of mai-ai.

A jab, a cross and a push has the arm extending away from the body, whereas a cross and a hook has the arm bent closer to the body. The arm doesn't move all that much because the body really comes into play to create the energy transfer to the fist.
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Old 05-07-2005, 12:54 PM   #75
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Have you ever tryed to do any Aikido technique off a real boxers jab or cross, I have, and it's not much more likely (I would say infact not possable).

-Chris Hein
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