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Old 05-03-2005, 06:00 PM   #26
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

If I am not mistaken, this waza is illustrated on p.139 of Kisshomaru Ueshiba's "Aikido", where it is called "ude-hishigi" (arm-smashing ). I would suppose that K Ueshiba regards it as relatively advanced, since it is shown as jo-tori.

I say, "if not mistaken", because I have heard it called 6-kyo only in the US. It was a favourite of M Kanai, though he also taught the correct ukemi for it.

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Old 05-03-2005, 06:43 PM   #27
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Hi Peter,

Yes, that a variation of the technique I, as one person, had in mind through this discussion (that's the one I was thinking about).

Tim, I only have one other variation (on video) of that technique up on our web site. For the sake of discussion and in attempt to meet your request, one can see that video here:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...intenance.html

The "Rokkyo" is the second technique performed in the flow. In this particular version, though we are doing it against a grab, you can still see an example of our approach, in that Rokkyo is executed after a type of "set-up" (i.e. a kind of "ikkyo ura" prefix-tenkan) - whereupon it finds for itself (what I would consider to be) a better opening for its tactical application.

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-03-2005, 09:18 PM   #28
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I'm not so sure...I've had people throw me with my elbow not completely straight in hiji shime, but the lock went through to the shoulder anyway, and I had to take the ukemi. And it was someone smaller than I am who did it. When I attack yokomenuchi my arm is in kamae position...not completely straight...but when my teacher does hiji shime he doesn't have to twist or torque the arm; he breaks my balance, I float for a second, and the lock is on. I also know people who have defended themselves from attacks using this technique.

So I see it used in newaza, standup attacks, and dojo situations. Doesn't seem so magical to me...not to mention that if I apply it standing and the elbow doesn't lock out, I just remove my feet from the ground and WALA! we have a reclining pin! Ok, and maybe uke has a hyperextended elbow...but what the hey...you can't have everything...

Ron
You know, Ron, teachers are half-gods and can do a lot of Magic but we, mortals, we must de real things to make it work
from my experience, if attacker is "alive", knows how to attack, make counters and is stronger, you will never got him in hiji shime. If attacker is "throwing doll" everything becomes possible

Ideally in hiji shime one must lock 3 joints simultaneously and use it to maintain off balance, to be able handle stronger and more experienced attacker. It happened to me too, to lock only shoulder, but attacker was less experienced and didn't counter very much.

In generally, I prefer techniques applied on bended joints like kotegaeshi, ikkyo or nikkyo, cos attacker tends to rather bend body(and joints) to protect himself from any technique.

Nagababa

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Old 05-03-2005, 09:32 PM   #29
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote:
No offense, but I have no clue what your talking about.

If I try WakiGatame and you pull your arm in to protect it, you will go down with KoteGaeshi. I can almost 100% guarantee it.
I know my writing is not clear, I had long day

There is a LOT more of scenarios how to efficently counter. I do often very "strange" practice with some friends with serious martial background and long time ago lost your optimism
Nothing in the world is "100% guarantee". Not even close to 10%.
My point is, straight arm simply doesn't exist during "good, solid" attack, that's why I will always choose ikkyo or kotegaeshi for example.

Rokkyo can be pedagogical tool to learn some stuff, but as working technique? naaaahhh….

Nagababa

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Old 05-03-2005, 09:39 PM   #30
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Well maybe we should say that it is extremely unlikely that one would be able to pull off Rokkyo in many of the ways that it is practiced in a lot of places - such as when it is done as a Kihon Waza or Shu level training - outside of controlled environments. .
Even in the dojo in very controlled environments, if you allow to attacker natural behaviour, and promise not to hurt him, it will be still very extremely unlikely. I do often free very friendly practice, it helps when attacker is afraid, otherwise nononooo

Nagababa

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Old 05-03-2005, 09:46 PM   #31
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Fred Little wrote:
But I think the KISS principle holds. If uke offers a straight arm, take the rokkyo.
FL
Generally I agree with you, however, if one day all aikidoka would be "well trained attackers" rokkyo will simply disappear.

That's why I said it has not "raison d'être" Rokko is only for attacker-looser.

Nagababa

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Old 05-03-2005, 09:48 PM   #32
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Szczepan Janczuk, I really can't tell when you're jokeing......

-Chris Hein
Practice more Rokkyo, my friend, more Rokkyo

Nagababa

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Old 05-03-2005, 09:52 PM   #33
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
It was a favourite of M Kanai, though he also taught the correct ukemi for it.
Interesting! .............hmhmh...........I need 40 more years practice, for sure. Every day 30 minutes Rokkyo?
ppl in the dojo will hate me

Nagababa

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Old 05-03-2005, 10:07 PM   #34
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote:
Reversed grip ikkyo, thats how i would describe gokkyo.
Does wakigatame focus on elbow or shoulder-control?
Ah - my bad - right you are. Apologies all round.

Wakigatame is an interesting technique. I feel that generally it is a forearm control with the added property that shoulder control can be added and if necessary pain and damage can be applied to the elbow.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-03-2005, 10:38 PM   #35
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
There is a LOT more of scenarios how to efficently counter. I do often very "strange" practice with some friends with serious martial background and long time ago lost your optimism
Nothing in the world is "100% guarantee". Not even close to 10%.
My point is, straight arm simply doesn't exist during "good, solid" attack, that's why I will always choose ikkyo or kotegaeshi for example.

Rokkyo can be pedagogical tool to learn some stuff, but as working technique? naaaahhh….
Szczepan, you are living in a nice little world my friend. It's a shame that you aren't able to do this particular technique effectively.

I used it before, and I can guarantee you it works. I had someone pushing my face against a metal bookshelf with their left arm while their right hand was holding my shirt. I pushed my cheek into his hand to build up a little resistance, then pushed his wrist off with my right hand and turned to my left. The guy went down to the floor like a 250 lb. rock.

I kept the hold on his elbow all the way to the ground. This wasn't a "strange" practice with some friends either.

After seeing your comments, I can basically ignore them from now on. You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
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Old 05-03-2005, 10:47 PM   #36
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Wakigatame under full resistance randori is one of my most effective tools. I use it as counter to shomen-ate, as a technique in its own right against both advancing and withdrawing tanto, under a whole range of conditions. It's a great technique under dynamic conditions. Last time I did Judo randori I used it.

I agree that nothing is ever guaranteed but Rokkyo can be pedagogical tool to learn some stuff, but as working technique? naaaahhh….Naaaahhh right back at you.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:01 PM   #37
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Tim, I only have one other variation (on video) of that technique up on our web site.
David, Thanks for the link, but my computer is having trouble playing the clip. I'll try it on my work computer tomorrow.

Peter, I agree with you 100%
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:31 PM   #38
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Honistly I think Rokkyo is a more practical technique then Ikkyo. Ikkyo is a great technique to demonstrate lots of principals, but when people are going crazy on you, it's much safer (for nage) and effective to drop your elbow over the top and rokkyo them down. Szczepan are you sure we're talking about the same technique? There is little doubt that it's very effective, I have gotten it with several people, in competition and not.

-Chris
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:50 PM   #39
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Interestingly the first Wakigatame (Rokkyo) variation taught in the Shodokan curriculum is very similar to the first Oshitaoshi (Ikkyo) taught. Uke's attack is identical as is tori's initial wrist rotation and movement of the secondary hand. What does differ is the direction of the kuzushi. For Oshitaoshi it is straight in - in fact a strike to the face. For wakigatame it is to the side and back of uke. The secondary hand in the first case goes to the elbow in the latter to the wrist.

To teach wakigatame timing I have a student practice the initial movement of oshitaoshi and then just change the kuzushi direction.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:59 PM   #40
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Judo has ude-gatame (straight armlock with palm-up) and waki-gatame (side armlock with little finger up). Some Aikido schools do ude-gatame for rokkyo, others do waki-gatame, and I think some of the above discussions are confusing the two. Tomiki people do waki-gatame, Yoshinkan do both, Kyushindo do both, and Aikikai schools seem confused as some do one, some do the other, and many do neither (and all mix the names up). Ude-gatame is a crude elbow lock. Waki-gatame is preferred as it is 100 times more effective when you get it. Most people who try to do waki-gatame end up in ude-gatame - it takes a while to get used to but once there, you will come to love it. If anyone ever attacks me it is amidst my first choices of what to do. And, there is far more control with waki-gatame than ude-gatame.

Actually, my guess is - it is just a guess - that those teachers who do ude-gatame were probably shown waki-gatame but missed the point (a very common mistake).

And, to concur with above posters, if uke bends his arm to try to escape waki-gatame (well, if it is on, there is no escape), first you have an opportunity to take nikyo, then kote-gaeshi. Also, if uke resists your ikkyo or nikkyo, waki-gatame reveals itself instantly - perhaps O-Sensei would have called it a present from the gods

PS Videos are great for explaining stuff - the one above to me seems to end palm up-ish, which would make it ude-gatame.

PPS And if anyone - ANYONE - tells me waki-gatame is not effective, well, just lend me your arm ...

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 05-04-2005 at 12:05 AM.

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Old 05-04-2005, 12:01 AM   #41
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
I teach and practice Rokkyo on a regular basis, it however seem that many school have dropped it. I was wondering what schools it's still prevalent in.

-Chris
Rokkyo = wakigatame = hiji shime osae. Now I understand. These multiple terminologies had me all confused. Rokkyu or Hiji Shime Osae as the Yoshinkan people call it as a technique is alive and kicking in my school. It is even part of the grading syllabus at the 3rd or 4th kyu level.

However, this technique does not appear in the Dan or higher level grading. I have to hazard a guess that it is not effective or too difficult to pull off as per S. Janczuk post and too close to uke for comfort.

Personally, I seldom try this tech as primary tech, more of like secondary when I failed the first one as in henka waza.

Boon.

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Old 05-04-2005, 01:50 AM   #42
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

As one of the relatively few techniques that go against the joint as opposed to extending the natural motion of a joint I would say hijishie is pretty important to include it in any Aikido curriculum.

It's the second technique we teach in our beginners course. Right after Sokumen Irimi. Just FYI #3 is ikkajo and #4 is nikajo...and then the beginers course finishes.

FWIW,

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Old 05-04-2005, 03:45 AM   #43
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

In class I teach 3 variations, One is an ura, spinning to the rear, Two is an omote, diving to where they don't have an arm to post, and Three is a direct where you lock the rotator cuff and drive them straight back.

-Chris
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:10 AM   #44
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

In judo, waki gatame is a standard and effective counter against a opponent who is stiff arming to prevent you from entering for a hip throw or osoto gari. Not at all illusory.
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:29 AM   #45
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Question Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Uhhh... There's a rokyo/wakigatame?
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Old 05-04-2005, 11:02 AM   #46
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Burt Masem wrote:
Uhhh... There's a rokyo/wakigatame?
Maybe this page will help:

http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/reference

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Old 05-04-2005, 12:06 PM   #47
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

I would never say that ude-gatame is ineffective and/or even less effective than waki-gatame. Both have their place, and if they find their place, or better, if their place happens upon them, they work and they work extremely well.

I also would not classify ude-gatame and waki-gatame by finger position - though there is an obvious difference there. Rather, for me, the latter makes use of the armpit and the former does not. For me - that is the big distinction between the two - even if the fingers and/or palm have to also be in slightly different positions for the elbow to act as a impetus for pinning and/or kuzushi, etc. So, for me, the "Rokkyo" in the video above is a version of "waki-gatame" - not ude-gatame.

On a different note: Szczepan, perhaps you can direct us to a video and/or some pictures in a well-known book where we can see the version of "rokkyo" that you are referring to. I am still under the impression that your position is more supported by particular training applications than it is by actual tactical architectures (particularly because many of us, myself included, have either used and/or seen waki-gatame used in "real-life" conditions and had it succeed beautifully). I feel I could understand your point better if I could cancel out this suspicion. Much appreciation in advance.

david

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Old 05-04-2005, 12:48 PM   #48
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

A good version of Ude-gatame in Tomiki Aikido is the 21st technique of the San Kata. It's in the Tanto Dori section.

David, I saw the video. Nice stuff! We don't usually go to the ground, but that certainly is a good option.

Jun, good link. I still feel alien when I do Aikikai style Aikido, but this gives me better reference for the similarities. It would be good to see a movie clip link for each version, or even a gif animation.
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Old 05-04-2005, 05:00 PM   #49
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Naaaahhh right back at you.
all right, next time you come back to civilization, let me know. I'll attack you with tanto to check out rokkyo

Nagababa

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Old 05-04-2005, 05:03 PM   #50
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Re: How many practice Rokkyo?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
PPS And if anyone - ANYONE - tells me waki-gatame is not effective, well, just lend me your arm ...
Straigh arm or bended arm?
s.(curious )

Nagababa

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