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Old 05-02-2005, 08:55 AM   #26
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
"Get a gun"? Well, that presupposes that you live in a place where you can carry firearms - more than half my adult life was spent in a place where you couldn't. It also presupposes that you would be willing and able to carry a firearm on a regular basis, which is not an option for most people. It also assumes that firearms are appropriate for all situations, which they are not. For similar reasons, empty hand arts survived in Japan for hundreds of years even though almost all battlefield combat was performed with weapons. And there were plenty of challenges.
Well-said, Chris. This brought to mind one of my favorite quotes:

"Having a gun and believing you're armed is like owning a piano and believing you're a musician." Jeff Cooper, Founder of Gunsite

... or, like wearing a hakama and believing that you're practicing aikido. If your aikido, or whatever martial art you practice, is not preparing you to deal effectively with conflict by developing and inculcating the "combat mindset", then find another art. Serious firearms training (such as the courses offered by Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, and John Farnam, to name but three) are at least as demanding, physically and mentally, as anything I have experienced in aikido or karatedo (Uechi-ryu, for those who are curious).

Jim Sorrentino
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:10 AM   #27
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
David Hood wrote:
Thing is, I like to teach.
Whether a student likes to learn, is not my problem
I always thought one of the primary purposes of teaching is to motivate and encourage learning. Maybe your statement doesn't express you correctly but that is a very callous approach to teaching.

Gregory Makuch
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Old 05-02-2005, 10:56 AM   #28
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Hey guys,
First off let me state to the anal that my spelling is poor, this if obvious, but hopefully you can make out what I'm trying to say....

I practiced Aikido for 5 years in an Iwama based school. One year uchi-deshi. I was quite good at Aikido, I went to seminars, trained with all the best people I could find (sorry I was limited to northern California), and thought I had a good grasp of Aikido. My teacher said I was one of the best Students he had ever had (coarse he was trained in Iwama, but he did live in northern California at the time). I had been in lots of fights as a kid, and knew what real fighting in the street was like. Although I couldn't quite put it together I was sure that Aikido was going to be applicable in a street fight some day. So after I had been a shodan for a bit I decided to travel about and see what else I could see. I moved to southern California, and began training at a school where sparring, and competitive fighting, and street applicable techniques were the goal. I was there for quite some time, when I learned that Aikido was applicable to empty handed fighting. Not in technique, but in the methods for learning new things and applying them to a resistive person. I was pleased that Aikido had taught me so much about dealing with another person. However I had never used the techniques Aikido in sparring (save Kokyunage, and once kotegaeshi). So I just thought, oh well the techniques must suck, I'll get over it. Then I went and fought with the dog brothers (http://www.dogbrothers.com/). I did it just to fight another fight. The dog brothers are a full contact stick fighting group in southern California. They fight wearing only a fencing helmet and gloves, they hit as hard as they passably can. All striking, wrestling, submitting goes. So I took a Rattan jo with me, and fought one of the dog brothers (lonely dog), and I found that Aikido techniques started working, and the way I had trained to fighting in Aikido worked like a charm. It was almost magical, like I knew something that I didn't know that I knew. This had never happened to me in empty handed sparring, even though I had spent the vast majority of my time practicing aikido empty handed. This lead me to start thinking about Aikido and it's techniques, and what it was designed for. I haven't based my opinions on anything that a teacher told me, or what some Wise old man thought. I based them I what I saw, when I put MYSELF on the line.

Dave it's funny that you said shihonage. It's my pet technique, I love it and can do It in an Aikido dojo like a champ. However I never got it sparring empty handed. I gave up on it like I had allot of other Aikido techniques. Then one day I was sparring with a guy and a knife. We got in a struggle over the knife and out came shihonage, I threw him with shihonage. After that it happened a few other times when sparring with a knife. Which lead me to think about how shihonage worked, and that of coarse it's designed to be used when struggling over a thing.

Look I don't think we need to try and defend Aikido, saying that "it dose infact work, and O-Sensei is the best guy ever". It works, I know it because I've used it, but it works with weapons. It is meant to be used with weapons. It's not a good empty handed system. If any of you are in Cali, look me up.

-Chris
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:44 AM   #29
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Chris, this is just my opinion, but 5 years isn't really enough experience in aikido to expect the techniques to work well in the dojo let alone outside of the dojo regardless of how great a student you are - especially in the Iwama system that breaks teaching aikido up into what they felt was level appropriate teaching. I'd say you never got to the part of the Iwama system that could possibly work in real life.

Rob
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:47 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Right now Aikido has many "Friendship" seminars for different Aikido styles, maybe a special type should be organized to host different arts.
Aiki Expo has had and does have classes with martial artists from arts other than Aikido already. That's actually my favorite part of it.

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Old 05-02-2005, 12:28 PM   #31
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Chris, this is just my opinion, but 5 years isn't really enough experience in aikido to expect the techniques to work well in the dojo let alone outside of the dojo regardless of how great a student you are - especially in the Iwama system that breaks teaching aikido up into what they felt was level appropriate teaching. I'd say you never got to the part of the Iwama system that could possibly work in real life.

Rob
5 years of dedicated study isn't long enough? When does effectiveness come in then? At the 10 year mark? Why is the teaching methodology so poor then for creating effective martial artists? A year or two spent in BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai, or Krav Maga will yield results against an untrained attacker.

The "You must have not gotten the REAL techniques" excuse is one that the Aiki-jujutsu guys have been using against Aikidoka for years. Good to see it's still alive and kicking.

Incidentally, Chris has trained under some excellent teachers, so I'm certain that he's "gotten the goods", as good as they are. With his experience testing his techniques in the crucible of competition, he might even be able to effect aiki techniques better than than those that have never attempted that training method, yet may have been training considerably longer.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean
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Old 05-02-2005, 01:59 PM   #32
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Hi Roy
Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
5 years of dedicated study isn't long enough? When does effectiveness come in then? At the 10 year mark?
I'd say the 15 to 20 year mark is more reasonable for aikido.

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
Why is the teaching methodology so poor then for creating effective martial artists?
Because the goal is not to create effective martial artists _at any cost to the attacker_.

If you accept the basic premise of aikido in terms of self defense is to protect yourself and do no damage (which when pressed by someone without regard to their own safety in an unavoidable situation can at best result in minimum damage) then it seems a bit more reasonable to require much more time to be effective at protecting yourself _while avoiding the typical maximum damage response_ one might find in the Muay Thai or Krav Maga.

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
The "You must have not gotten the REAL techniques" excuse is one that the Aiki-jujutsu guys have been using against Aikidoka for years. Good to see it's still alive and kicking.
Sorry but I have no idea how other aikido people tried to construct an argument on this topic in the past, so I cannot defend them. I did in fact say "this is just my opinion".

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
Incidentally, Chris has trained under some excellent teachers, so I'm certain that he's "gotten the goods", as good as they are. With his experience testing his techniques in the crucible of competition, he might even be able to effect aiki techniques better than than those that have never attempted that training method, yet may have been training considerably longer.
I'm sure he had some wonderful teachers and excellent experiences. However, many aikido people call iriminage "the 20 year technique." Why do you think they call it that? It is certainly not because they are comparing their process to Muay Tai or BJJ. I'd say they couldn't care less.

Basically, it has been my experience that the techniques were designed not to work based on surface level understanding. "Aiki" was borrowed from a sword school that used that term for their okuden-level (level of depth). Depth in understanding takes time.

Five years to get to shodan is fine. The way I have been taught is that shodan, nidan, and sandan are the beginner levels ("shoden"), yondan, godan, and rokyudan are the intermediate levels ("chuden"); and nandan+ are the mastery levels ("okuden" - level of depth).

I think that people in the intermediate levels of aikido should be able to handle themselves well if that has been their intention in training, but who gets there in five years?! No one. Not even with cross-training.

Rob
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Old 05-02-2005, 03:27 PM   #33
takusan
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Hi all,
(esp Gregory)
Previously I mentioned that Teaching has many facets to it.
If I were to pander to every single person that has ever set foot within my dojo, just so that I could prevent being criticized for not motivating them, most of the other students, that didn't need that particular 'motivation' would be receiving material that was totally unnecessary - perhaps even unwanted.
If a student finds themselves unmotivated - for what ever reason - it IS their problem. That I may, through my actions, help them over come this, is a great out come, but not my motivation.

While teaching may involve motivation and encouragement to a large extent, I was always under the understanding that its primary role is the passing on of information.
Maybe I'm stuck in the 'old school' where the teacher didn't need to be all things to all students.
Give me time, I may change.
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:05 PM   #34
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Rob,

Thanks for the quick reply, and I can see you position far more clearly now. I say 15 years for solid effectiveness is a bit long for my taste, but tastes do vary.

Perhaps there should be a disclaimer printed clearly on sign-up sheets for new students, indicating the time frame when effectiveness should be expected.

Not that I believe in those time frames. Under the proper teacher, with the right training methods, a person can increase their skill level dramatically in a short period of time. Isn't that what being an uchideshi is all about? The quality of your instruction and training time is more important than the total time elapsed.

4 years of full time training can easily equate to 10 years of being a serious hobbyist. Who really knows the quality of another person's training experience? Who's to say that effectiveness can't be reached in under 5 years?

Roy
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Old 05-02-2005, 05:41 PM   #35
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Re: Aikido challenges today

If you want to be capable of protecting yourself, and you can't get it in 5 years, then your system is no good. Like Roy said, a guy can become very effective in 2 years with Bjj, Muay Thai, boxing, etc etc. The goal of protecting yourself and not hurting the other person is a mixed bag. Could I stop a small woman who is untrained in the martial arts, with out hurting her? Most certainly I can. Can I stop a 400 lbs. professionally trained Sumo with out hurting him? Most defiantly not. Being able to control someone with out hurting them is dependent on many factors, and cannot be summed up to 20 years of training.
I think most people are too hung up on the idea of some mysterious magic that will happen down the road. O-sensei said that you could get Aikido in 3 months if you understood what it was. In-fact he said he got it in an instant. "True victory is self victory, and it happens in an instant.". I think it's wishful thinking that you will wake up 20 years down the road and magic will happen. I would put my technical knowledge of Aikido up against any that I've met.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 05-02-2005 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:40 PM   #36
takusan
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Re: Aikido challenges today

So what are you actually saying?

Give up training after five or so years? Because you are probably as good as you'll ever be (from within your current system)???

I'm sure that wasn't want you meant

Hell, that would have relegated a huge % of the aiki community to being masochists, as, for them to carry on training after that time means they are truly deluding themselves to their ability to gain anything further.

I relay a comment my friend told me, that came from Pat Hendricks sensei while he was training at her dojo, (not a direct quote, but you'll get the idea)

"What is it with all these people, they think when they get to yon dan or something, that they believe they actually know something - and want to teach."

Just love that. This allows me to carry on training - and teaching and having an open mind, for many years to come.
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:44 PM   #37
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
..... So I took a Rattan jo with me, and fought one of the dog brothers (lonely dog), and I found that Aikido techniques started working, and the way I had trained to fighting in Aikido worked like a charm. It was almost magical, like I knew something that I didn't know that I knew. This had never happened to me in empty handed sparring, even though I had spent the vast majority of my time practicing aikido empty handed. This lead me to start thinking about Aikido and it's techniques, and what it was designed for. I haven't based my opinions on anything that a teacher told me, or what some Wise old man thought. I based them I what I saw, when I put MYSELF on the line.

Dave it's funny that you said shihonage. It's my pet technique, I love it and can do It in an Aikido dojo like a champ. However I never got it sparring empty handed. I gave up on it like I had allot of other Aikido techniques. Then one day I was sparring with a guy and a knife. We got in a struggle over the knife and out came shihonage, I threw him with shihonage. After that it happened a few other times when sparring with a knife. Which lead me to think about how shihonage worked, and that of coarse it's designed to be used when struggling over a thing.

Look I don't think we need to try and defend Aikido, saying that "it dose infact work, and O-Sensei is the best guy ever". It works, I know it because I've used it, but it works with weapons. It is meant to be used with weapons. It's not a good empty handed system. If any of you are in Cali, look me up.

-Chris
That Aikido is weapons-based is widely known; I've read O Sensei explained techniques in terms of sword moves. Kali is also weapons based, and has many of the same joint locks as Aikido, although so far, I have only seen them empty hand.

As to how well Aikido pops out with the empty hand, I've had things "pop out" a couple of times during pushing hands in Tai Chi (although I am not quite sure what they were). I also finished the ikkyo pin on my Kali instructor when we were going over an arm bar very similar to ikkyo ura, although the Kali version stops short of the Aikido final position; it was very strange to watch my body finish it on its own without me consciously decide to do it! However, in what little empty hand sparring I've done in the last few years -- the most recent sparring session in the last few years being an impromptu round with my Kali instructor -- nothing "Aiki-ish" popped out. So it can "pop out" empty hand, but my gut tells me you have to snag a reference point when it's handed to you or you don't get it.

Then AGAIN, there's the persepctive of retaining a skill. I haven't trained in a Wing Chun class in a long time, but I retained enough of the basics for this past weekend.

Just a few thoughts.
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:54 PM   #38
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
Jason Potenza wrote:
"Nowadays, cross-training is all the rage. Rather than try to beat up the "new kid on the block," many martial artists view other sytstems as things to learn from than challenges to take one. So it's more likely a Judo person would cross-train in Aikido than march into an Aikido dojo issuing a challenge. Even MMA guys cross-train in Aikido, according to this thread I found in usenet:

http://webnews.newsfeeds.com/webnew...sid=28731&th=12

When you look at arts as things to learn from instead of as potential challenges, the ego-motive to issue a challenge is gone"





Very true, JKD concepts people have been doing this forever!

I know; my main Kali instructors, Guro Kevin Seaman and Guro Andy Astle are also instructors in Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do (about which I can talk a good game because of all the digressions and asides they've made over the years ), and the experience of doing things with them while continuing in karate gave me the cross-training bug. I've sinced glommed that there's plenty of crosstraining in the Aikido world, usually in things like Judo, Kendo, Kenjitsu, Iado, and so forth; although in recent years people from the JKD world have been cross training in Aikido, too.

I guess that intentionally or otherwise, they left me with live-and-let-live attitude I've been approaching Aikido with. That I'm very new to it and have a lot of things to work on also helps keep my ego in check.


Quote:
BTW, it has been said many times that BJJ is Aikido on the ground
Oh, boy, isn't that a can of worms! <runs like hell>

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Old 05-02-2005, 09:33 PM   #39
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Fine, but there are just not going to be so many people who are going to understand aikido so well that they can get it in three months. I think Yamaguchi sensei was such a person, but that's just one man. We haven't had too many people come along after Tesla who could repeat some of the scientific feats he did 100 years ago either, but I'm sure someone will come along sooner or later. I think it is a lot more wishful thinking that you are going to be a genious like that compared to being someone who improves gradually over time from years of dedicated practice!

Bascially, I think the point was that we are talking about the average person - I'll even give you the better than average person. It still makes a lot of sense to me that is should take much longer to be effective and not injure someone than it does to become effective regardless of the damage you do to a person. I do, in fact, explain that to new people who walk through the door. If you want to be fair, then you have to also ask if the BJJ places talk to the new students about the % chance they'll end up rolling around on the ground with someone once they get our of grade school?

About uchideshis: Good point, but it really depends on who you are an uchideshi for and what their goals in aikido are. The ones I know well in Japan tend to get really good up to sandan and then they turn into masters of the "basics for the sake of basics" brand of aikido. (The teacher's goal is to spread aikido's basics and he does a wonderful job.) The five uchideshis in that system have good mind/body unification in their movement and I'd say they must think that is all there is. After sandan, they started getting promoted from that point out of loyalty and/or teaching basics for the sake of basics ability - as opposed to getting promoted for aikido martial ability. They never even consider giving up some of their power for better blending and learning how to separate their mind and body tasks for more efficiency. To my mind it is a terrible waste. It's like playing scale on the piano for ever and never actually writing your own song, or copying words out of a dictionary but never writing a story - ever. These people are becoming the next generation and many sensei's with more technical ability are dying off. In my experience some of these uchideshis want more and find they have to try to get it by cross training - so as not to insult the training method of their teacher or whatever.

Anyway, if you can do ikkyo without directly pushing, iriminage without directly pulling or pushing, and shihonage without directly lifting in 5 years you are doing better than many people who have trained much longer than that, but still say you have a long way to go from there as that isn't even intermediate yet.

Lastly, I don't know about being effective in 2 years of BJJ. As a matter of fact, I just a few hours ago took a 2 year BJJer apart for as long as he wanted to try to take me to the ground - he tried for about half an hour! (I like and respect BJJ.) The fact remains that this guy was shorter than me and heavier by about 20 pounds. He had apparently been kicked ouf of a gracie school for being unsafe with people in his training. (I understand that this was just one person but that's all I have to go on at the moment.)

I like wrestling and I knew he wasn't going to be able to get me anywhere near the ground. I can't tell you how many times I had my thumb in his eye and didn't push in. I was holding back from more horrible things than that. I would say that he was suffering from cooperative training much more than I was.

After a long while - I told him I would lie down, let him get on top of me and I wrestled him - and I still kept him to a stale mate for a long while. (Where I was relaxed and breathing normally and he was panting like mad and getting more tired.) Then, to be a sport and drop my ego I let him start out in positions totally favorable to him he took me apart effectively. That was impressive, I must say. It was fun and I learned some things from those positions. But I think I have a good idea about what an average 2 year BJJer can and cannot do. Let's not kid ourselves, effective is a relative term, and if that is the measure of what is effective, than my 15 to 20 years of aikido mark is a bit high. (But I still say that my mark is right, and your mark on BJJ is a bit off.)

Anyway, I do agree that there are faster ways to get effective than aikido. If you think that makes aikido bad than by all means don't train aikido. From my way of thinking, a longer time to get somewhere might be worth it depending on what you are trying to get to.

Rob

(bummer I posted as my wife - sorry!)

Sunny

A brave man dies once; cowards are always dying." --Moanahonga, Ioway
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Old 05-02-2005, 10:56 PM   #40
sunny liberti
 
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Re: Aikido challenges today

OK! Please direct any challenges to Rob - not to me!! I'm happy with my path - I don't care to fight about it...

Sunny

A brave man dies once; cowards are always dying." --Moanahonga, Ioway
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Old 05-03-2005, 05:57 AM   #41
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Re: Aikido challenges today

I always wonder why people compare MA systems.. it is assuming that everyone out there in the world is/has training is a MA and is using it.
I very much doubt that the majority of people out there that attack people have any MA expericence and if they do it would only be basic.

The question shouldn't be "How does Aikido compare to "X" MA system". It should be "If a Aikidoka was attacked in this way <insert attack>, would the Aididoka survive?"

In my experience, however limited, most people that train in any MA do so for personal defence, fitness, or just the love of the Art itself, and are very unlikely to user it unless provoked.

Thanks,
Rob

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"Courage is the mastery of fear, not the absence of fear."
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Old 05-03-2005, 06:22 AM   #42
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
Robert Townson wrote:
I always wonder why people compare MA systems.. it is assuming that everyone out there in the world is/has training is a MA and is using it.
I very much doubt that the majority of people out there that attack people have any MA expericence and if they do it would only be basic.

The question shouldn't be "How does Aikido compare to "X" MA system". It should be "If a Aikidoka was attacked in this way <insert attack>, would the Aididoka survive?"

In my experience, however limited, most people that train in any MA do so for personal defence, fitness, or just the love of the Art itself, and are very unlikely to user it unless provoked.
That's exactly the point I was trying to make in the "Defending Against Aikido" thread, and even then I'm taking a cue from my Kal instructor: When someone asks him "But what if he does <insert grappling attack here>?" he says "Don't worry about it," precisely because the odds are greater that you will be confronted by some doof off the street with little or no training, as opposed to a trained fighter with MMA experience; they're spending their time training (or typing on the 'net) than mugging people. Thank you.
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Old 05-03-2005, 07:27 AM   #43
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido challenges today

I agree that it is unlikely that I'll be fighting anyone period. As I said, I like wrestling because it is fun, not because I was comparing anything. I only piped in because it was just suggested that
1) "If you want to be capable of protecting yourself, and you can't get it in 5 years, then your system is no good" and
2) "a guy can become very effective in 2 years with Bjj"

and I just don't agree with the weights and measures being used...

When people go for both legs I can generally move so that they can only get one and so that they don't get their forehead directly attached to the front of my thigh/hip. So while they go for their single leg take down I can work their face and control their body better than they can control mine. I didn't find this too difficult against a 2 year Bjj player. If someone can make a better set up so that they can get to a point where I can be taken to the ground, then that's awesome and I'd love the lesson.

What's funny is that this particular guy I was playing with was so set in his way of thinking about things that while I was just salt and peppering his face (gently - less than skin hard - but enough to stop or adjust the grabs he made at me without concern for his face) he was trying to convince me that we do the "same thing". So I told him that I'm using the skills I practice in aikido to create this positioning and to hit you everytime you create an opening by trying to grab me from that terrible position, but he couldn't hear it.

Rob
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Old 05-03-2005, 08:03 AM   #44
jester
 
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
When people go for both legs I can generally move so that they can only get one and so that they don't get their forehead directly attached to the front of my thigh/hip. So while they go for their single leg take down I can work their face and control their body better than they can control mine. I didn't find this too difficult against a 2 year BJJ player. If someone can make a better set up so that they can get to a point where I can be taken to the ground, then that's awesome and I'd love the lesson.
That's odd that he would want to take you to the ground right away. BJJ has a standing self-defense aspect to it that doesn't get talked about much. Only after a throw, lock etc. takes the attacker to the ground, will the grappling aspect of the art come into play.

People that just want to take you down and pull guard are probably not that well rounded in BJJ.

All BJJ is not created equal. You have to take in account of his school, instructor etc.
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Old 05-03-2005, 08:34 AM   #45
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido challenges today

I totally agree. Same goes for aikido! I agree that I'm seeing more aikido that is basics for the sake of basics than people who are getting good basics to then move beyond them - but that's not the art's fault, that's a problem (in my opinion) with how the art is being spread.

I am totally confident that if there is an excellent teacher in town - anywhere who actually has the goal of developing students beyond sandan martial ability and teaches that way - I could move into town, and set up a basics for the sake of basics dojo and put the better school out of business.

Rob
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Old 05-03-2005, 09:47 AM   #46
Ben Joiner
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Interesting thread, Rob could you explain to a relative newbie why the above statement holds true?
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Old 05-03-2005, 09:54 AM   #47
grondahl
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Re: Aikido challenges today

And even better; since basics for the sake of basics seems to be a problem spreading trough the world, why don't you name some of the teachers or dojos that operate in that fashion. A pm will also be fine.
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:35 AM   #48
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Well I'd just like to say 5 years is a fair amount of time, specially if you're training 5-6 days a week, between 2-6 hours each of those days. I was uchi deshi for a year, a dedicated student, not just hobbying around. Also my experience with Brazilian jiu jutsu is not limited to some kid, who came into my school and said he had 2 years of Brazilian jiu jutsu training. I trained for 2 years under a top level competing black belt, and also frequented Clebber Jiu jutsu in Huntington beach. Those two years of Brazilian Jiu jutsu were also 3-6 hour days, 4-5 days a week (I had a job, and couldn't train as much). My experience with both systems is very sound, my time wasn't spent hobbying about. I'll tell you right now, Brazilian jiu jutsu is twice the system for unarmed combative that Aikido is. An Aikidoka would prolly beat the Jesus out of a Bjj man if he had a stick, but it's not an empty handed system. I have fought with both in the ring, I have fought full contact stick fighting, I actually have applied my knowledge against people who wanted to defete/hurt me. I'm sure you have convinced yourself that your Aikido is very sound (and maybe it is) but if you don't get that it's a weapons system, I really have little respect for you. If you would be interested in finding out what 2 years of mixed martial arts training and a mear 5 (7 now) years of Aikido can do, you should come see me, I'd be more then happy to show you.

-Chris Hein
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Old 05-03-2005, 12:09 PM   #49
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Chris,

I train 5-6 days a week, between 2-6 hours each of those days now and I have been doing that non-stop with some great aikido teachers for almost 15 years straight. I'm not gifted - in fact I'm a bit slow at learning aikido compared to some. But I can tell you that I remember what I could do 10 years ago, and what I could do 5 years ago, and I'm fairly well aware of what I can do now. Sorry, but I don't agree with your "fair amount of time" opinion. I would say I will need another good 5 years of paying better attention before I think I'll really want to start having more fun and cross-training more frequently.

Please remember that I did post (and meant) the following:
1) "I like and respect BJJ."
2) "I'm sure he had some wonderful teachers and excellent experiences." < -- referring to you
3) "If someone can make a better set up so that they can get to a point where I can be taken to the ground, then that's awesome and I'd love the lesson." - so sure anytime I can meet you that would be fine. I hope your set ups to shoot me completely take me apart so I can continue to learn.

You have said:
1) "a guy can become very effective in 2 years with Bjj"
2) "I would put my technical knowledge of Aikido up against any that I've met."
3) "If you want to be capable of protecting yourself, and you can't get it in 5 years, then your system is no good"

To 1, after reading you last post, to be fair I'll give you the point. You said a guy can become very effective, and I read that as the average guy - but I can see now that you are talking about a highly committed and dedicated person with excellent instruction - and I'm sure such a person "can" become very effective in that art in that time frame.

To 2, I wrote:
"Anyway, if you can do ikkyo without directly pushing, iriminage without directly pulling or pushing, and shihonage without directly lifting in 5 years you are doing better than many people who have trained much longer than that, but still say you have a long way to go from there as that isn't even intermediate yet."

If you can do these things and more then I'm wrong and you are certainly qualified to make that statement #3 (about aikido not being a good system). I'd still say we disagree, but you are qualified - or should I say you have much more credibility than I initially guessed based on the amount of time you had in and what I've been told the focus of those dojos are with beginners.

If you cannot do those things and more in aikido, then:
a) you are do not yet have the credibility in my eyes - which is what I was saying initially
b) we should get together and trade and share.

Peace, and I really do hope I get to meet you someday!
Rob
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Old 05-03-2005, 12:24 PM   #50
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
I'm sure you have convinced yourself that your Aikido is very sound (and maybe it is) but if you don't get that it's a weapons system, I really have little respect for you. If you would be interested in finding out what 2 years of mixed martial arts training and a mear 5 (7 now) years of Aikido can do, you should come see me, I'd be more then happy to show you.
Well, hey...don't take it personally or anything....

Ron

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