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Old 05-02-2005, 04:10 PM   #26
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Szcp,etc. is a curmudgeon.
thanx Don, I knew, you are my best friend
S.(back to work on my own curmudgeoning )

Nagababa

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Old 05-02-2005, 04:14 PM   #27
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote:
Nevertheless, there is an unspoken agreement on this forum that no individual's or organization's martial spirit should be ridiculed.
I'm VERY surprised to hear it, I gave some technical opinion, and expression "Yoshinkan fighters" was for teasing Ron. We all know well, that Yoshinkan doesn't teach fighting

Sorry for misunderstanding.

Nagababa

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Old 05-02-2005, 06:52 PM   #28
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

Hello Ron,

I don't like discussing techniques on a website, because techniques are best taught, hence explained, by showing (in my conservative opinion).

Two questions: Was the attack shoumen-uchi? Was the blending with uke's attack supposed to be linear or circular?

Have you tried the technique with uke attacking with a bokken?

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:51 PM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

Hi Peter,

The attack was shomenuchi, in the cutting forward and down style, not the cutting forward only style you sometimes see. The technique seemed to be both linear and circular...linear in the intial entry into uke's space, circular in that you body changed to what would now be the back knee down, circular again in the way you matched uke's arm and cut out and down.

I have tried similar techniques when uke attacks with a bokken...it does liven things up a bit, and it also seems uke extends more...there is a wider distance for them to cover and shite can take advantage of that. In the technique in question, it was interesting in trying to deal with many different body types and attacks. We weren't dealing with one uke...it was hikari geiko, so you had a line of about 10 or so attackers, and had to adjust to each attack accordingly. I also found it distracting not to be sure of the ukemi level of each attacker...there were a few people who might not have liked the rough rider version of the throw.

Hi Szczepan,

I agree with your latest assessment...surprise and a very commited uke make the technique/exercise work...and the same with what you called leg takedown. I've found that lifting my balance to the point where my shoulders rise is a good setup for that throw...uke see you go up, they go up, and then you enter into the hole they leave. Of course, if they don't respond as expected, you are kind of open to a whole bunch of things, the easiest being a simple thrust kick. As they say, timing is everything.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:08 AM   #30
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
thanx Don, I knew, you are my best friend
S.(back to work on my own curmudgeoning )

Don J. Modesto
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:09 AM   #31
Don_Modesto
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
I don't like discussing techniques on a website, because techniques are best taught, hence explained, by showing (in my conservative opinion).
FWIW, your online comments have helped my tehcnique several times directly and also given me grist for experimentation in training. Thanks for the discussion despite your antipathy for it.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 05-03-2005, 12:48 PM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

I agree Don, Peter's comments are always gold to me. I've noticed that he prefers to just ask questions and let me reason out where he is going...it doesn't always work on me, but when it does, it really helps!

Say Don, isn't there a throw in nikajo that does a strong lock (ippondori style) then releases the lock and throws to the rear at the same time? I think I remember practising that with Kondo Sensei the last time I saw him in Maryland.

Thanks all,
Ron

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Old 05-03-2005, 05:48 PM   #33
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I agree Don, Peter's comments are always gold to me. I've noticed that he prefers to just ask questions and let me reason out where he is going...it doesn't always work on me, but when it does, it really helps!

Thanks all,
Ron
Actually, Ron, I had a whole post written out, then I scrapped it (as I often do in forums such as these). The post dealt with three issues germane to this waza: the need for the back hole, as Sczcepan intimated; the difficulty of creating this black hole with an attacker where the arc of the attack is not controlled by tori--such control is (potentially) in place where the waza is a henka-waza from 1-kyo, as Sczcepan also intimated. There was also something on the importance of correct irimi, as Ellis A understands this. So I was actually almost repeating what others have already stated or thought.

I asked the question about circular movement because I have seen the waza done in two slightly different ways, which in my opinion have an influence on maai. In one way, the general aim is to send uke in the direction in which he/she was coming to begin with. In the other way, the aim is to lead uke in a circle (a spiral, actually), where he/she ends up going in a different direction. The first way is favoured by people like Hiroshi Tada (and Mitsunari Kanai, from what I remember when I trained in the US. The second way is favoured by people who trained in the old Osaka Aikikai (Bansen Tanaka and perhaps H Kobayashi.

I have regularly trained here with people from Osaka who were contemporaies of K Chiba, when he was a deshi, and I found the differences striking.

Best regards,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 05-03-2005 at 05:50 PM.

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Old 05-03-2005, 10:09 PM   #34
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
In the other way, the aim is to lead uke in a circle (a spiral, actually), where he/she ends up going in a different direction.
without locking arm of attacker? Isn't it against a law of Nature?

Nagababa

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Old 05-03-2005, 10:30 PM   #35
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Say Don, isn't there a throw in nikajo that does a strong lock (ippondori style) then releases the lock and throws to the rear at the same time? I think I remember practising that with Kondo Sensei the last time I saw him in Maryland.
KATA GURUMA perhaps? ...but it's to NAGE's rear; he has to pivot. Killer technique to execute. Seems like what's been discussed here.

There's also HIKI OTOSHI which locks UKE's elbow from YOKOMENUCHI (Juan came back from Japan calling it KESA GIRI) and ending in much the position you're in in the pic above.

Hope this helps.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:40 PM   #36
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

Peter: I do the same thing. I actually think Aikiweb does more for me by giving me a chance to write all of my frustration out and then discard it before I expose my retardation to the world. I am sure without this interface I would explode in the real world and end up taking a nice car ride with the men in the white lab coats.
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:37 AM   #37
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
without locking arm of attacker? Isn't it against a law of Nature?
Hello, Szczepan,

I'm not really into laws of nature and you know yourself that there are various ways you can intercept a shoumen attack, even when done with a bokken.

However, when I trained with my friends from the Osaka Aikikai, they told me that my attack was not correct, which I took to mean that it would not allow them to do the technique. I have no idea whether they were representative, since I have heard some veery good thingas about Hirokazu Kobayashi.

PS. 1 The thread on rokkyo is evidence for me why discussing the finer points of technique is rather pointless. As I stated there, Kanai Sensei did this technique relatively often and called it Rokkyo. I had trained previously with Chiba Sensei in London and never heard of this technique (but I was a beginner). After coming to live in Japan, I attended a seminar in the US and Kanai Sensei demonstrated this technique and emphasized the ukemi required when the technique was put on hard.

PS. 2 For those who know the history of the NE Aikikai, my partner on this occasion was Fred Newcombe--and he confessed that he hated both technique and ukemi required.

Aaah, those were the days!!

Best regards,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 05-04-2005 at 07:42 AM.

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Old 05-04-2005, 08:04 AM   #38
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote:
Peter: I do the same thing. I actually think Aikiweb does more for me by giving me a chance to write all of my frustration out and then discard it before I expose my retardation to the world. I am sure without this interface I would explode in the real world and end up taking a nice car ride with the men in the white lab coats.
Hello Benjamin,

The software Jun uses is now more user-friendly, so I no longer have to make my posts in Word and then cut & paste them, though I still do this occasionally.

If we are discussing waza, there is (a) the problem of names: which names are correct and the power of names in determining the waza, which is not what the Founder intended. He simply did the techniques and those most in need of remembering, he numbered the techniques from 1 onwards and also used terms like 'irimi'.

There is also (b) the problem of describing the technique in the absence of a tatami or street, where you can show. Describing techniques becomes something like describing an activity like walking or running. Once, I asked my language students to explain to the average Martian, who had just arrived on earth and had no arms or legs, about bicycles and how to ride them. Their efforts were sometimes brilliant but often hilarious.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 05-04-2005, 05:35 PM   #39
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Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Hello, Szczepan,

I'm not really into laws of nature and you know yourself that there are various ways you can intercept a shoumen attack, even when done with a bokken.

However, when I trained with my friends from the Osaka Aikikai, they told me that my attack was not correct, which I took to mean that it would not allow them to do the technique. I have no idea whether they were representative, since I have heard some veery good thingas about Hirokazu Kobayashi.

Best regards,
I have many friends in Europe who follow different styles with roots in H.Kobayashi teaching. Very interesting approach, indeed. However, all of them, they have tendency to put uke's work in tight box. If uke's behavior is different, they have great difficulty to do anything. It wasn't a case of H.Kobayashi, I had fantastic opportunities to practice with him on many seminars in France, Belgium and Holland, and he never told me that my attack is wrong, only throwed me, and I had to fly few meters, wow!.

I think in generally, that more one's aikido is personalized less uke's work is spontaneous. That situation favors development of aikido poor technically. So if somebody tell me that my attack isn't correct, it raise red flag in my mind. One day one young shihan from Hombu told me so. I said to myself: oopps, very limited aikido…….

Quote:
Kanai Sensei demonstrated this technique and emphasized the ukemi required when the technique was put on hard.
yep, we do like he taught, and I learned well how to protect my elbows. Sensei did amazing things with this technique.

But still, nage must be very careful; with traditional way of practice (simple, prearranged, relatively slow attacks) it is very easy to make this technique work. That's how ppl build illusions about big efficiency of this technique.

Last edited by NagaBaba : 05-04-2005 at 05:44 PM.

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