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Old 05-24-2005, 06:24 AM   #101
Mike Sigman
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Re: Basic elements of Aikido

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
That was, by the way, my whole point regarding Tohei. Tohei says that the metaphyisical explanations were irrelevant to the art of relaxation. My point is that they weren't [something] to Ueshiba. They were a means to another end.
I earlier suggested that focusing on the metaphysical explanations that Ueshiba used in his doka would probably not be very fruitful in terms of actual "how-to" knowledge. Ellis is touching on that point again and I concur heartily. Acknowledging the references in deliberately obscured traditional "poems" and "songs" is one thing... taking them literally can be a waste of time.

Ellis has mentioned the five-elements theory (which comes from China, BTW) used in Japanese theories and it shows a relationship (establishing a codified "relationship" seems so important to human societies) between things. In Xingyi, which Ellis has done some of, there are 5 basic punches that are each tied to one of the five elements and they're called the "Five Element Fists". You can spend time examining how each fist somehow stimulates the liver, lungs, etc., etc., and how each fist "overcomes" certain other fists as do elements in the theory, and so on. However, if you get with one of the practical teachers from the old traditions they don't spend any time musing over the relationships of the five elements to these punches... they'll tell you flat out that the five elements fist practices is the practice of five basic and different ways of releasing power with the dantien control. I.e., I'm encouraging people to go to the practical without dwelling too much on the traditional attempts to tie the ki and kokyu trainings to the cosmos. "Mixing the ki of Heaven with the ki of Earth" is one thing; understanding that there are two basic types of training within the breathing practices is another.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 05-24-2005, 06:47 AM   #102
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Basic elements of Aikido

I have studied Japanese and Korean for some time and I have to say I notice many more daily expressions with ki in in Japanese than I do in Korean. Considering that the two languages are VERY similar, meaning that much of modern Japanese, especially the grammar, came over with Koreans sometime past, it would seem plausible that Japan developed its particular brand of liking for ki somewhat separately, albeit undoubtably after being introduced from China (via Korea or directly).

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Old 05-24-2005, 06:55 AM   #103
Mike Sigman
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Re: Basic elements of Aikido

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
I have studied Japanese and Korean for some time and I have to say I notice many more daily expressions with ki in in Japanese than I do in Korean. Considering that the two languages are VERY similar, meaning that much of modern Japanese, especially the grammar, came over with Koreans sometime past, it would seem plausible that Japan developed its particular brand of liking for ki somewhat separately, albeit undoubtably after being introduced from China (via Korea or directly).
IIRC, the current Korean language is not related to the Japanese language. This has been a puzzle for some time since it turns out that genetically the Japanese are obviously from Korea (except for the Ainu, of course). The current explanation of the different languages is that ancient Korean records show that there were six small kingdoms in Korea, each with their own different language. During the typical conflicts, one of the kingdom's people were driven to Japan, more or less.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 05-24-2005, 01:02 PM   #104
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Basic elements of Aikido

Agree with you Mike, the underlying principles certainly are universal so only so much will ultimately differ.

However, using your Olympic team example, The Chinese certainly could adopt different methodologies for training sprinters that may give them an edge up on the competition.

Could it also be that differences in martial arts methodologies may result in different levels or paradigms of understanding of the same universal principles? I
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Old 05-24-2005, 01:46 PM   #105
Mike Sigman
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Re: Basic elements of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
However, using your Olympic team example, The Chinese certainly could adopt different methodologies for training sprinters that may give them an edge up on the competition.
I agree. But I would suggest that it's a matter of additive factors. I.e., the basic conditioning aspects of the sprinting *must* still be there and perhaps, as in your suggestion, the Chinese have found something that augments the basic training. In other words, you cannot get around the necessity of the basic principles of sprinting; you cannot get around the necessity of the basic principles of "ki", either.
Quote:
Could it also be that differences in martial arts methodologies may result in different levels or paradigms of understanding of the same universal principles?
I would say yes. Let's just imagine that there are several distinct components that are called "ki", in this discussion of ki as a body-skills phenomenon (this is true... there are some distinct components, but they're all wrapped into the umbrella-term "ki"). If someone know some of the components, but not all, they can enhance some aspects of body performance, but not all. If someone is more skilled in usage of "kokyu" than someone else, then they will have a different level with the basic priniciples, and so on. You're applying common sense and what you're saying is true.

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Mike Sigman
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Old 05-25-2005, 06:47 PM   #106
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Basic elements of Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
IIRC, the current Korean language is not related to the Japanese language. This has been a puzzle for some time since it turns out that genetically the Japanese are obviously from Korea (except for the Ainu, of course). The current explanation of the different languages is that ancient Korean records show that there were six small kingdoms in Korea, each with their own different language. During the typical conflicts, one of the kingdom's people were driven to Japan, more or less.

FWIW

Mike
Mike,

What is the source of your info here? For example, there is a book by Chris Beckwith: Koguryo: The language of Japan's continental relatives. I have not seen it have heard Koreanists disagree with what it says - that he draws big conclusions from minimal info. The fact is that no one really knows about particular languages as there are few records and therefore little to study. Also, modern Korean grammar is really quite similar to Japanese such that anyone studying both will immediately have no doubt they are connected in some way.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 05-25-2005 at 06:50 PM.

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Old 05-25-2005, 08:46 PM   #107
Mike Sigman
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Re: Basic elements of Aikido

[quote=Rupert AtkinsonWhat is the source of your info here? [/QUOTE] Hi Rupert:

It's not uncommon. Try this one: DISCOVER Vol. 19 No. 06 | June 1998 | Ancient Life

Regards,

Mike
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Old 05-26-2005, 07:35 AM   #108
Mike Sigman
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Re: Basic elements of Aikido

Sorry... forgot it was a subscriber-only site. Here's the pertinent part of the article:

We have seen that the combined evidence of archeology, physical anthropology, and genetics supports the transparent interpretation for how the distinctive-looking Ainu and the undistinctive-looking Japanese came to share Japan: the Ainu are descended from Japan's original inhabitants and the Japanese are descended from more recent arrivals. But that view leaves the problem of language unexplained. If the Japanese really are recent arrivals from Korea, you might expect the Japanese and Korean languages to be very similar. More generally, if the Japanese people arose recently from some mixture, on the island of Kyushu, of original Ainu-like Jomon inhabitants with Yayoi invaders from Korea, the Japanese language might show close affinities to both the Korean and Ainu languages. Instead, Japanese and Ainu have no demonstrable relationship, and the relationship between Japanese and Korean is distant. How could this be so if the mixing occurred a mere 2,400 years ago? I suggest the following resolution of this paradox: the languages of Kyushu's Jomon residents and Yayoi invaders were quite different from the modern Ainu and Korean languages, respectively.

The Ainu language was spoken in recent times by the Ainu on the northern island of Hokkaido, so Hokkaido's Jomon inhabitants probably also spoke an Ainu-like language. The Jomon inhabitants of Kyushu, however, surely did not. From the southern tip of Kyushu to the northern tip of Hokkaido, the Japanese archipelago is nearly 1,500 miles long. In Jomon times it supported great regional diversity of subsistence techniques and of pottery styles and was never unified politically. During the 10,000 years of Jomon occupation, Jomon people would have evolved correspondingly great linguistic diversity. In fact, many Japanese place-names on Hokkaido and northern Honshu include the Ainu words for river, nai or betsu, and for cape, shiri, but such Ainu-like names do not occur farther south in Japan. This suggests not only that Yayoi and Japanese pioneers adopted many Jomon place-names, just as white Americans did Native American names (think of Massachusetts and Mississippi), but also that Ainu was the Jomon language only of northernmost Japan.

That is, the modern Ainu language of Hokkaido is not a model for the ancient Jomon language of Kyushu. By the same token, modern Korean may be a poor model for the ancient Yayoi language of Korean immigrants in 400 b.c. In the centuries before Korea became unified politically in a.d. 676, it consisted of three kingdoms. Modern Korean is derived from the language of the kingdom of Silla, the kingdom that emerged triumphant and unified Korea, but Silla was not the kingdom that had close contact with Japan in the preceding centuries. Early Korean chronicles tell us that the different kingdoms had different languages. While the languages of the kingdoms defeated by Silla are poorly known, the few preserved words of one of those kingdoms, Koguryo, are much more similar to the corresponding Old Japanese words than are the corresponding modern Korean words. Korean languages may have been even more diverse in 400 b.c., before political unification had reached the stage of three kingdoms. The Korean language that reached Japan in 400 b.c., and that evolved into modern Japanese, I suspect, was quite different from the Silla language that evolved into modern Korean. Hence we should not be surprised that modern Japanese and Korean people resemble each other far more in their appearance and genes than in their languages.
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Old 05-27-2005, 03:42 PM   #109
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Basic elements of Aikido

I believe I read that DNA tests can now clarify the actual lineage of individuals so that might help to someday solve part of this mystery. Sorry, I don't have the inclination to source this.

I'm late getting into this thread and I wondered if we are referring to the basic elements of Aikido as it differs from it's Ju Jitsu roots?

(Back to lurking)
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Old 06-15-2005, 08:09 PM   #110
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Re: Basic elements of Aikido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Quote:
Jason DeLucia wrote:
aikido 'the matching of the next reflex to its subsequent move'
Jason,
I looked at this and initially I went, yes... but the more I looked at it the less I was sure what you meant. Could you elaborate?
- George
Axioms when pushed pull or turn ,when pulled push or enter .so then if you can cause someone to push or pull you ,you will lead them .suigetsu .
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