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Old 04-26-2005, 09:17 PM   #26
rob_liberti
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

I meant, I find the "story-teller" to be fairly credible in general.

Regardless, the story told by one side makes that side look better, and the story told by an impartial source seemed (to me) a bit more realistic. I wasn't there and so I am not really looking to create more myth and legend. I'm more interested in raising awareness. Sorry, I know that is not nearly as interesting as a good tall tale of heroics or whatever.

Rob
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Old 04-27-2005, 02:04 AM   #27
tedehara
 
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Actually, from what I could gather from William Reed's book, this whole thing was a set-up. Apparently Nishi Kai wanted Tohei to take on all challengers for money and would use the winnings to build a new dojo. Tohei agreed to accept challanges but not give them. When they couldn't find any takers, the offer was dropped.

Reed also mentions that a large Portugese man tried unsucessfully to move Tohei's unbendable arm. Tohei later learned the offer was $500 to anyone who could bend his arm. Reed is a member of the Ki Society and got this information from K. Tohei.

Another thing to note is that any challanges by outsiders to Honbu dojo after WWII were met by K. Tohei. So he did have experience in actual confrontations.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 04-27-2005, 01:06 PM   #28
Talon
 
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

So what really happened there? I was looking for this video and never found it. Do you have a link to i possibly? Tell us realisticly what occured there?



Quote:
Tim Jester wrote:
Without a video documentation, myths and legends are born. I heard all kinds of stories about Gozo Shioda and JFK's bodyguard, then I saw the video and 90% of what I heard was incorrect.

The old saying is "Believe nothing of what you hear, and half of what you see".
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Old 04-28-2005, 07:46 AM   #29
Michael Neal
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Yea I think the story is probably over the top, there is so much information that we don't know, for one, the rank of the Judoka he fought.

If there are any Aikidoka here that think they can take 5 Judoka on in randori I will be happy to set it up.
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Old 04-28-2005, 07:43 PM   #30
Joe Jutsu
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

I don't think that the judoka's rank is as important as the fact that they were the five champions at their respective weight classes. I'm sure we've all known kohei aikidoka whose techniques might have been more effective than some of their sempai.

FWIW,

Joe
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Old 04-28-2005, 09:54 PM   #31
bryce_montgomery
 
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
If there are any Aikidoka here that think they can take 5 Judoka on in randori I will be happy to set it up.
I can take them on!...




Never said I'd be able to handle them....

Sorry,
Bryce
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Old 04-28-2005, 10:21 PM   #32
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Yea I think the story is probably over the top, there is so much information that we don't know, for one, the rank of the Judoka he fought.

If there are any Aikidoka here that think they can take 5 Judoka on in randori I will be happy to set it up.

...sure, why not...?

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 04-28-2005, 11:42 PM   #33
Dan Rubin
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
When I questioned him about the accuracy of the story he told me that he had heard it from one of Ikeda sensei's students "who was there". The funny thing is that I had also heard about that same event from another person "who was also there" - and was not one of Ikeda sensei's students, who gave me a much more balanced and reasonable retelling of what _he_ saw. I think that sometimes students just have stars in their eyes.
Rob

So, basically, you heard the story from someone who was not there, and you heard the story from someone who was there. You find the latter more credible, as you should.

Dan
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Old 04-29-2005, 06:39 AM   #34
paw
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Quote:
Joe Proffitt wrote:
I don't think that the judoka's rank is as important as the fact that they were the five champions at their respective weight classes.
What's a "judo champion"? Someone who won a local city tournament? Someone who won a state tournament? Someone who won a regional tournament? Someone who won a national tournament? Someone who won an international tournament? Someon who won the Olympic gold medal?

And what organization was running the tournament? I know national champions in one judo organization that wouldn't even place in a regional tournament in another organization.


Regards,

Paul
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Old 04-29-2005, 06:58 AM   #35
rob_liberti
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote:
Rob

So, basically, you heard the story from someone who was not there, and you heard the story from someone who was there. You find the latter more credible, as you should.

Dan
Just so we are clear, I'm not in any way trying to indicate that Ikeda sensei's students are less credible than others. That just happened to be a real event that made an analogy here. My point is that humans tend to get a bit starry-eyed when it comes to telling stories about people they greatly admire.

I have no doubt that the person who was relaying the story from someone who was there was doing an accurate job of re-telling what he heard. Just as I have no doubt that I remember quite well what I was told by another person who was also there.

I just meant to say that I found the re-telling from the party with no real attachment to either sensei or their reputation to be much more reasonable.

What I was trying to get at was that in absence of video footage of the Tohei events, I would be much more interested in a re-telling of the match from someone who was not Tohei's students, or the student of any of the Judo guys.

Rob
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Old 04-29-2005, 07:04 AM   #36
Michael Neal
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
...sure, why not...?

If you want I will ask some Judoka from New York if they would be interested in doing this.

If you came to Washington D.C I could probably set it up no problem.
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Old 04-29-2005, 09:56 AM   #37
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Forgive me if that has been mentioned, but Robert W. Smith gives his eye witness account in "Martial Musings" (pg 46). Since Smith is a big critic of aikido and japanese martial arts in general (he was a judoka at the time of this contest), it is particularly interesting to read how Tohei did in fact take on 5 good judoka and put on quite a show. Smith's portrait of Tohei as a powerful martial artist is one of my favorites.
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Old 04-29-2005, 11:06 AM   #38
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
If you want I will ask some Judoka from New York if they would be interested in doing this.

If you came to Washington D.C I could probably set it up no problem.

Hi Mike,

I am sure that if I had something to prove, I could go around the corner and grab 5 of the Grecco Roman wrestlers who train at the Olympic training center, but I just don't have anything to prove to myself at this point in my training. That doesn't say anything about tomorrow, as I may wake up and go down there and get them guys and prove a point... er to myself. Having said that, if there were 5 judoka who came around who really wanted to test things out, I guess I'd give it a whirl. Point is, where does it end? Someone will say that they weren't the right 5 guys, or blah, blah, blah. In any case, it would be interesting, fun to try and without a doubt deeply revealing on many levels. If I ever made it to Washington, I guess I would focus on giving Mr. Bush a piece of my mind rather than any 5 judoka. Both scenarios are equally pointless in my book, as I am sure that regardless of what I said or did, I wouldn't sway anyone one way or the other...


I tried sending you a private e-mail about a month ago regarding a 2003 post of yours on the Judo board, but I don't see it in my sent items... Did that come through?

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 04-29-2005, 11:21 AM   #39
Chris Birke
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

I would love to see an aikido guy throwing 5 uncooperative judo guys around! Someone out there, do it for me!
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Old 04-29-2005, 11:35 AM   #40
Michael Neal
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Shaun, I never got it. My email address has changed since I registered here, my new email is michael@michaelneal.net

You should not look at it as having something to prove, just as an experience. I guess I don't see things like this so much as a challenge match since randori is so much a part of Judo, it is just natural to Judoka. I think it would be entertaining to watch such an encounter regardless of who won it.

Quote:
I would love to see an aikido guy throwing 5 uncooperative judo guys around! Someone out there, do it for me!
The problem is that you are very unlikely to ever see such a thing happen.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 04-29-2005 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 04-29-2005, 11:37 AM   #41
Bodhi
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Michael Neal wrote:
Yea I think the story is probably over the top, there is so much information that we don't know, for one, the rank of the Judoka he fought.

If there are any Aikidoka here that think they can take 5 Judoka on in randori I will be happy to set it up.




...sure, why not...?





I wanna play too!!! I'll rotate sides, Judo guys team for 1 melee, Aikido guys team for 1 melee, best out of 7 fights! Can i bring friends, they could really make it interesting! Instead of just haveing 1 guy vs 5, we could also have 2 guys vs 10, maybe even throw in some sticks an training blades like how we do melee in the Filipino arts! No protective gear, it goes until you quit, get tapped, or knocked out! Winner takes home all the Judo guys black belts, or all the Aikido guys hakamas, a free dinner at the
Sizzler, and bragging rights! This would be waaay cool, set it up!
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Old 04-29-2005, 11:40 AM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Quote:
since randori is so much a part of Judo, it is just natural to Judoka.
Randori against five skilled opponants is natural to judoka? Wow, my already high estimation of the art just jumped a notch!

I'm currious Michael, is it that you doubt what Tohei did, or are you saying he couldn't do it against the caliber of judoka out there today, or is it that you are saying no one could do it today? The evidence appears to say that it did happen...'course that doesn't mean it could be replicated today...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-29-2005, 11:49 AM   #43
Michael Neal
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Randori against five skilled opponants is natural to judoka? Wow, my already high estimation of the art just jumped a notch!
No I did not mean to say that Judo randori deals with 5 opponents just that randori in itself is so much a part of Judo that having such an exhibition is really no big deal. While with Aikido there is so much resistance to the idea of competition.

Quote:
I'm currious Michael, is it that you doubt what Tohei did, or are you saying he couldn't do it against the caliber of judoka out there today, or is it that you are saying no one could do it today? The evidence appears to say that it did happen...'course that doesn't mean it could be replicated today...
I think the story is likely overblown and if true the Judoka were probably of lower rank. And I also think that if I were to get even just 5 good local Judo competitors that there would be a very slim chance of any Aikidoka being able to dispose of them all. In fact, I am doubtful that many Aikidoka can dispose of just one Judoka of equal experience level.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 04-29-2005 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 04-29-2005, 11:50 AM   #44
Michael Neal
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Quote:
Jason Potenza wrote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Yea I think the story is probably over the top, there is so much information that we don't know, for one, the rank of the Judoka he fought.

If there are any Aikidoka here that think they can take 5 Judoka on in randori I will be happy to set it up.




...sure, why not...?





I wanna play too!!! I'll rotate sides, Judo guys team for 1 melee, Aikido guys team for 1 melee, best out of 7 fights! Can i bring friends, they could really make it interesting! Instead of just haveing 1 guy vs 5, we could also have 2 guys vs 10, maybe even throw in some sticks an training blades like how we do melee in the Filipino arts! No protective gear, it goes until you quit, get tapped, or knocked out! Winner takes home all the Judo guys black belts, or all the Aikido guys hakamas, a free dinner at the
Sizzler, and bragging rights! This would be waaay cool, set it up!
it sounds like fun to me minus the weapons, if I were to do something like this it would be done not to put down Aikido or have a bloody fight, just friendly randori, skill against skill.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 04-29-2005 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:03 PM   #45
Michael Neal
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

My point is most of the stories told about martial arts like this feats are wildy exaggerated, regardles of what art is claiming them.

I remember when the Gracies starting going into recreational Judo clubs with cameras and taping themselves beating them in randori and offering this as "proof" that BJJ was superior to Judo. However, they were matching top level BJJ practioners with decades of experience against average 2 day a week recreational Judoka.

I think this Tohei legend is probably comparable. Here is a legend in Aikido (with a great deal of Judo experience) taking on a few average Judoka, really does not prove anything to me about Aikido.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 04-29-2005 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:39 PM   #46
sanskara
 
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

The official account is that the Judoka were all Yondan or above, it took place at the All American Judo Championships (not some regional event,) it may or may not prove anything about the effectiveness of Aikido; It's best to read the entire thread before commenting.

Last edited by sanskara : 04-29-2005 at 12:41 PM.

Regards,
James Bostwick
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:45 PM   #47
Michael Neal
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Yea I must have missed that post before, now I am more sceptical than before. I need to see something like this today with my own eyes to believe it.
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Old 04-29-2005, 02:01 PM   #48
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

Why? Do you question the papers that reported it? The eye witnesses? If we produced one of the judoka themselves, and they gave a positive report, would you believe it then? A healthy dose of skeptisism is fine, but really now...lets not get all RMA here and require video. Did Rome fall? We don't have video of it...fer christ's sakes...

Ron

And personally I agree with James...it doesn't really say anything much about aikido...says a lot about the tactics that Tohei employed at that time in that situation though. If there was video...I'd love to study it.

RT (not taking on 5 judoka myself anytime soon)

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 04-29-2005 at 02:03 PM.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-29-2005, 02:13 PM   #49
Michael Neal
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

I do want to see the video to believe it, apparently it was filmed so it must exist somewhere.
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Old 04-29-2005, 02:24 PM   #50
Michael Neal
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Re: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?

I do have some Judoka already interested in doing a similar challenge if anyone feels up to it.
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