Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-16-2005, 02:07 AM   #1
villrg0a
 
villrg0a's Avatar
Dojo: Shuryukan Yoshinkai Aikido
Location: Khobar Saudi Arabia
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 179
Saudi Arabia
Offline
Kihon Waza

Hello guys,

I am not sure if they do all the same thing in other yoshinkan dojos worldwide. What I wanted to know is what Kihon Waza's do you use in specific relationship to the 6 KIHON DOSAs. Please dont include shumatsu ichi and ni as they are already obvious.

Please be kind. Thank you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 03:20 PM   #2
Charlie
 
Charlie's Avatar
Location: Elgin, IL
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 165
Offline
Re: Kihon Waza

There is approximately 150 kihon waza (basic techniques) in Yoshinkan Aikido and every single technique in aikido relates to the 6 kihon dosa (basic movements)!

Lucky for us, on Steven Miranda's website he has provided us with this nifty little chart http://www.seikeikan.com/kihonwaza.htm.

To comment on the relationship of each movement to each technique requires more time and space than this type of forum allows for.

However, in a nutshell...hiriki yosei ichi and ni teaches us to move forward and backwards as well as shift our body weight without becoming unbalanced during a technique.

tai no henko ichi and ni teaches to turn/pivot and entering/irimi.

Shumatsu dosa ichi and ni combines all the movements for advancing/retreating and turning/ body change.

Enjoy! Learning the relationships IS the life long journey we call practice, practice, practice.

Charles Burmeister
Aikido Yoshinkan Yoseikai

"Calmness is trust in action"
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 04:59 PM   #3
Steven
 
Steven's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Yoshinkan Sacramento - Seikeikan Dojo
Location: Orangevale, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 605
United_States
Offline
Re: Kihon Waza

Quote:
Romuel Villareal wrote:
Hello guys,

I am not sure if they do all the same thing in other yoshinkan dojos worldwide. What I wanted to know is what Kihon Waza's do you use in specific relationship to the 6 KIHON DOSAs. Please dont include shumatsu ichi and ni as they are already obvious.

Please be kind. Thank you.
Hi Mel,

The first two techniques required for advancement in Yoshinkan Aikido, based on the 2004/2005 syllabus, that have the best and most direct link to kihon dosa is katate mochi shihonage 1 & 2 and Shomen uchi ikkajo osae 1 and 2.

Other techniques to consider are sokumen iriminage 1 and 2 and ryote mochi tenchinage 1 and 2.

What Charlie said as well about the 150 are spot on. They all contain the basic movments, but the ones I noted are the ones I feel do the best in making the relationship.

Regards ...

Last edited by Steven : 04-18-2005 at 05:13 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 07:16 PM   #4
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Kihon Waza

I thought I'd throw up a couple of obscure generalities to highlight what Charles said about how every technique contains some facet of kihon dosa.

The kihon dosa I think that is missed in most of the techniques is the application of the hiriki no yosei ni shift with the front knee moving forward to the 2nd step (cross-step) in ikkajo osae ichi "type" techniques with the shuffle - crossstep - crosstep circle pattern.

Unfortunately, this seems to be a key relationship even though it isn't obvious at first, second, third...glance.

Another not so obvious one would be the arm movement in shumatsu dosa ichi and ni (where you shuffle down from the hands up straight above your head and your feet closer than kamae). This movement of the body and in particular the elbow use and the circle describe by the elbows can be found in techniques like hijishime and other techniques which control the shoulder by having shite's arm above uke's elbow/upper arm with the palm up.

I have found this image works well...if your shumatsu dosa includes it and you are thinking about the elbows and not the hands.

Just a thought,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 09:13 PM   #5
Steven
 
Steven's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Yoshinkan Sacramento - Seikeikan Dojo
Location: Orangevale, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 605
United_States
Offline
Re: Kihon Waza

Hi Michael,

Nice post. The element you mention about hiriki no yosei ni was something I was missing for sometime until we had a ..ahem.. mix up in hakamas and Parker Sensei's hakama did not make it to the dojo with us. We saw more things in his movement that we had not detected before, specifically the entering of the knee, or moving it forward as you say. We saw this most notably on ikkajo osae ni from shomen, When you shift and take uke down. There was most definitely a slight movement forward just before the rotation and subsequent face plant.

As for shumatsu dosa and hijishime, I had to think about that for a few minutes and yes, I got up and did the movement to try to understand what you said. Okay, so I'm a geek. Sue me! A little light went off and I see what you mean. I've must say I've never made that relationship.

Thanks!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 10:20 PM   #6
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Kihon Waza

Hey Steven,

I'm glad something I said made sense

What I find so cool about this stuff is how internally consistent it is. Whenever I do something that doesn't work, or I can't see how to do it I can always find another technique or a basic movement that has some element in it that is the same...and if I have a glimmer of understanding of that technique/movement then I already have a glimmer in the one I'm trying to figure out. Unfortunately, even though I *know* that that consistency is there, sometimes it takes a long time to find it.

The ikkajo osae ni shift with the knee first is great because it gets uke in front of you and you can end up pushing. If you think about ikkajo osae ichi technique...you can do the same thing with the front knee before you crosstep...also to get uke moving in front of you.

Actually...I am coming to think that everything starts with that little knee pushing forward while keep your whole body together...just enough to start uke on his/her merry little way into splathood before pivoting or crosstepping or shuffling or dropping down or whatever. I really like it.

cheers,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 12:39 AM   #7
Ian Upstone
Location: Sussex
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 80
Offline
Re: Kihon Waza

Hello Michael

That made sense to me too. Eventually

I remember you pointing out the same thing to me on my hiriki no yosei ni, and it stuck! Before, I was pivoting entirely with the hips and only concentrating on transfering my weight from over one foot to the other. When doing this as part of a ni osae technique I had to consciously think about extending uke out (as Steven describes) before turning.

Because I now emphasise using the 'knee shift' first as you reccommended, that extension is happening automatically every time I shift my weight like this, regardless of whatever technique it is.

I had to think about the hijishime/shumatsu dosa link too for a while - another great one! - (and I fully admit to geekhood too!)

Cheers

Ian

Last edited by Ian Upstone : 04-19-2005 at 12:41 AM. Reason: horrific grammar
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 01:36 AM   #8
Ian Upstone
Location: Sussex
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 80
Offline
Re: Kihon Waza

Another couple of links that I keep noticing between hiriki no yosei ni and kihon waza while I think about it -

When you lead uke before applying kote gaeshi (transfering weight with the lead hand extended).

Shomen irimi nage ni (say from shomen uchi) - the movement before cross stepping through to throw, the returning movement of hiriki no yosei ni where you raise your hands into hiriki while transfering weight.

I think I'll let it go now!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 02:05 AM   #9
villrg0a
 
villrg0a's Avatar
Dojo: Shuryukan Yoshinkai Aikido
Location: Khobar Saudi Arabia
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 179
Saudi Arabia
Offline
Re: Kihon Waza

This is great guys....everything just make sense. Basic is always the answer.

Please lets keep this thread alive.

Osu,
Mel
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 05:20 PM   #10
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Kihon Waza

Ian...good points. Just to elaborate on your shomen irimi nage ni idea.

One thing people often forget when doing hiriki no yosei ni is that the arms are important. Of course the weight needs to shift from one side to the other, but in something like shomen irimi nage ni, it's the arms that are doing the bringing up of uke so that their knees buckle forward instead of taking a step back.

I mean that if you just shift your weight and don't think about the arms you will push uke away from you. To avoid this and to kind of force uke's feet to stay planted on the ground while their knees jump forward and they end up looking at the ceiling you have to use the hand motion so that you slide your arm out across the body and then turn uke's outside shoulder in by using the hip to push your arm. Your arm can't, however, extend more than the natural distance it keeps in kamae. And of course, everything should finish at the same time like hiriki no yosei ni.

I don't think I did a real good job explaining that, but we were going through this in class the other day. It's really interesting to me to find all the little points that are represented in the kihon dosa that then extrapolate into kihon waza.

Anyway...another slightly obscure point to think about in hiriki no yosei ni.

cheers,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 05:23 PM   #11
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Kihon Waza

Quote:
Ian Upstone wrote:

I remember you pointing out the same thing to me on my hiriki no yosei ni, and it stuck! Before, I was pivoting entirely with the hips and only concentrating on transfering my weight from over one foot to the other. When doing this as part of a ni osae technique I had to consciously think about extending uke out (as Steven describes) before turning.

Because I now emphasise using the 'knee shift' first as you reccommended, that extension is happening automatically every time I shift my weight like this, regardless of whatever technique it is.
Ian...that's really cool. Jet lagged and all you remembered that and even better are applying it. Good to hear

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 09:07 PM   #12
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Kihon Waza

One of my students pointed out something interesting today that I had never noticed before and have to think on.

We were doing hanmi handachi ryote mochi shihonage and if you recall there is a (shift, crosstep back but keeping the weight forward) as the move after shite stands up. My student asked me if this movement was the same as the (crosstep back bringing uke's sankajo'd hand down, atemi, slight shuffle keeping weight forward) movement used in shomenuchi sankajo osae ni after the sankajo reverse pivot.

I haven't had a chance to think about this too much and we didn't have time to explore it this morning, but there certainly seems to be something there. The movement might be pretty close or, in fact, the same.

Anyway...something to think about. I just thought I'd share since it came up this morning.

cheers,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2005, 12:45 AM   #13
villrg0a
 
villrg0a's Avatar
Dojo: Shuryukan Yoshinkai Aikido
Location: Khobar Saudi Arabia
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 179
Saudi Arabia
Offline
Re: Kihon Waza

Thanks for the input Michael, dont have much to share but I am monitoring this channel
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Randori No Kata - history etc DaveS Techniques 14 09-30-2006 08:59 PM
Testing requirements kyu levels arjandevries Testing 10 08-07-2006 08:26 PM
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 05:20 PM
David's Drills Pauliina Lievonen General 34 02-05-2006 12:18 AM
Yoshinkan basics within the ASU Steven Training 26 07-11-2002 10:41 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:02 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate