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Old 04-23-2005, 11:15 PM   #101
sanskara
 
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
If you read Stanley Pranin's four-part interview with Tohei, you'll find Tohei saying:

"When I went to Hawaii and tried to use the techniques I had learned form Ueshiba Sensei, I found that many of them were ineffective. What Sensei said and what he did were two different things. (snip)... when I returned to Japan and had another look at Ueshiba Sensei, I realized that he did indeed apply his techniques from a very relaxed state.


Tohei learned much about relaxation prior to going to Hawaii in 1953. The changes he made to Aikido were primarily to technique, and involved accomodating taller opponents. The alterations were made on the spot, which is why most (if not all) who were in Hawaii at the time attest to Tohei's effectiveness on his first trip to the U.S. So it's not as if he failed, went home, and then re-evaluated. He also says that he believed originally he had discovered new ways to do these techniques until he revisited Ueshiba and found that he also sometimes practiced this way (nothing new under the sun, and all that.)

It's easy to misunderstand this if one's knowledge on such things comes primarily from interviews on the Internet--not being pejorative here, mind you, just saying a lot of this won't carry over well in brief text.

Quote:
While I was with Ueshiba Sensei I was also studying under Tempu Nakamura. It was he who first taught me that "the mind moves the body." Those words struck me like a bolt of electricity and opened my eyes to the whole realm of aikido. "
Yes, but that doesn't represent all that defines Tohei. A little legwork might be in order. It's very clear from his own words and those of his top students that he was actively involved in Ki development prior to even meeting Ueshiba. That he acquired something of value from Tempu Sensei is unquestionable, but doesn't support your basic thesis.

Quote:
Tohei himself says that his understanding originates with the teachings of Nakamura.
Actually, he's never explicity said that he owes it all to Tempu. He might credit some ideas and exercises to the Tempukai, but he is very emphatic (especially in now out of print versions of his books) that his methods are his and are drawn from teachers, like Ueshiba and Nakamura, as well as his own experiences. Much emphasis is placed on the latter.

Quote:
Having read some of your strange ideas in private email (and that's why I quit responding), I don't think you have much idea about what Tohei does, so I'm not sure what your point is in reinforcing something I've already said in public. I'm not sure you understand.
I have no idea what you're referring to here. I can dig up those old e-mails out of the recycling bin and sent folder and post them, if need be. We had some friendly disagreement about things (nothing heated,) but if I have controversial or weird views on Ki, you'll have to point them out--it's news to me and those who have followed my postings for years on Aikido Journal. As for understanding Tohei and his teachings, I understand that slamming me after my last post seems like the order of the day, but I'm not sure you're in a good position to judge my knowledge of Tohei's teachings either way, no matter what I say here.

Quote:
The discussions about ki, kokyu, qi, jin, etc., etc., are sustainable as a discussion outside of any "martial preferences". That's the way I'm discussing them, not as tied to any martial system. And what I do is more properly a "field of study", not a "path".
Well, research is one thing, talking down to anyone who disagrees with you is quite another. You may not feel guilty of the latter, but if potential sources of info think so, it seriously hamstrings your investigation.

Quote:
I realize you have the belief that ki and kokyu things are different than the way I've discussed them...
Actually, I don't necessarily disagree with your views on Ki or Kokyu. I disagree with the way you make large sweeping judgments about Aikido and some of its pioneers. I think you oversimplify and insist that this and that person must be doing this and that exercise because you've watched a video and decided it's so. It may or may not be so. Go and find out. Trying to figure things out from behind a desk is preferred to hard work (I'd much rather do that if the option is available), but is not the way to learn about martial arts.

Quote:
all you have to do is engage in the discussion and show me where you think I'm wrong or debate what you think you know,
I think I've done just that, and you've replied to me much the way you have to everyone who's disagreed with you. And it represents a perspective that is in direct contradiction with the pretense of gathering information and investigating the facts.

Quote:
instead of simply posting what you think are my thoughts and motives and being insulting in doing so. If there's a point in the ki and kokyu things that you disagree with (as you did in private email), why not just lay them out in this forum and let's play it from there? Or do you feel that it's easier to take a cheap shot than debate honestly?
In our e-mails I thought you were overly concerned with Chinese practices and the implication that the Japanese somehow just don't get it. That may not be the case, but that's the impression I had. My response in e-mail was similar to my style here: rational, reasonably reserved, relatively intelligent--don't know about cheap shots or overt weirdness.

But given your past discussions with members of this forum, it seems to be a pattern that whenever anyone says anything about Ki that's different than what you believe, you mark them as being somehow outside of the confines of current Asian practice and ideology (as if you were the sole litmus test.) Perhaps, this is a means of not so surreptitiously saying they're some sort of whack job econoclastic individualist, with little regard for convention, and should be ignored thusly.

Quote:
Insofar as my motives for being on this forum, etc., trust me I won't be here a bit longer than when I'm certain I can't get any more information along the lines that I've publicly mentioned, James.
Don't leave on my account. I'm not looking to chase you out of Dodge. As I said in our e-mails, your initial responses and perspective in the women and Aikido thread were pretty spot on--it kind of degraded after that. Either way, do what you want.

Quote:
You may worry that you're not being recognized for your true value,
Not sure where you're getting that from, unless it's the old "same to you and more of it" defense. My actions, limited though they may be on this forum, don't exactly scream that I'm looking for positive attention. Also, as a non-Aikidoka, my contributions to this forum can easily be dismissed as irrelevant by those looking for a reason to do so. Consequently, my "value" might be better appreciated elsewhere, if I had that in mind.

Quote:
Incidentally, I asked you before and you didn't answer... did you study with Tohei personally?
Well, I didn't really dodge the question (I did ask you to call if you wanted more info about Tohei's teachings in the 70's and 80's, which is what you seemed to be after.) Although it isn't lost on me that the potential for a circumstantial ad hominem waits in the wings. I'll play anyway:

I've never met Tohei. When I was actively part of the Ki Society in the 80's and early 90's, spanning almost fifteen years (twelve full-time), meeting him was not a big deal. I had access to the likes of Shiohira, Kataoka, Eto, Nonaka, Shoji, Suzuki, Maruyama (Koretoshi), Kashiwaya, and many more, who spent the better part of their lives with Tohei. I spent the better part of my free time training with such talent, everytime the door was open (as a matter of fact), but money to fly to Japan as a teenager, I did not have.

Ultimately, such an endeavor would have been expensive and less fruitful than one on one extended experience with some of the aforementioned individuals, who are talented in their own right, access to Tohei notwithstanding.--I opted to train rather than add to my scrapbook. Current uchi deshi at Ki no Sato have very limited access, if any, to Tohei; it was not so different a few years ago before his "retirement." Additionally, while attending a seminar with hundreds of others, that included Tohei, might have made for bragging rights, it wouldn't necessarily equal competency.

For what it's worth, I know plenty of people who have gone to a seminar, shaken hands with Tohei (which is about the extent of contact these days, if you're lucky,) and their Aikido isn't very good. I also know plenty who have strong Shin Shin Toitsu and Kokyu but have never met the man--you might be in that category for all I know. So take from that what you will.

In my more active Aikido years, I personally took great interest in what Tohei was teaching in his prime and spent considerable time prying information out of the old school practitioners who were there, for example, when Tohei defeated seven Judoka in Hawaii. Many are now dead or have moved on to other things.

Naturally, it's just my word, but If you poke around the Ki Society you can probably find a few people who were around when I was and if nothing else, can vouch for my presence, abilities, and understanding of Tohei's principles. I could have just as easily lied about it and no one would have known the difference. In fact, that would have been easier, as mentioned previously, who would be around to contradict me?

Last edited by sanskara : 04-23-2005 at 11:28 PM.

Regards,
James Bostwick
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Old 04-24-2005, 09:40 AM   #102
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Quote:
James Bostwick wrote:
Actually, he's never explicity said that he owes it all to Tempu. He might credit some ideas and exercises to the Tempukai, but he is very emphatic (especially in now out of print versions of his books) that his methods are his and are drawn from teachers, like Ueshiba and Nakamura, as well as his own experiences. Much emphasis is placed on the latter.
Not to lose sight of your entre' into the discussion, you were essentially cavilling that people didn't have to go outside of Ueshiba's teachings to get ki things. I submit that now you've pretty much admitted that Kohei *did* have to go outside of Ueshiba's teachings to get his full understanding of ki and kokyu, but now you want to argue how much. I don't want to go there, thanks.

Insofar as Tohei not giving certain amounts of credit to Nakamura and Ueshiba, Tohei often doesn't give credit and he's prone to oblique putdowns to Ueshiba and others, as well. Let's accept what useful knowledge we can from Tohei without being drawn into side discussions. Remember, he also said there was no such thing as the Bataan Death March, etc.... i.e., I have never accepted a lot of Tohei's statements as being particularly 100% accurate because there is a certain amount of self-concernedness in many things he says. Not that it bothers me... I'm just not naive, nor do I want to get involved in a "Tohei is the Greatest" discussion.

For the purposes of the discussion at hand, elements of ki training that were not given by Ueshiba were picked up in the Tempukai and other places by students of Ueshiba. I know that for a fact.
Quote:
I have no idea what you're referring to here. I can dig up those old e-mails out of the recycling bin and sent folder and post them, if need be. We had some friendly disagreement about things (nothing heated,) but if I have controversial or weird views on Ki, you'll have to point them out--it's news to me and those who have followed my postings for years on Aikido Journal.
I think you see the world of ki and kokyu as revolving around Tohei and your understanding of what he said. And apparently you feel you have some sort of "position", given your "postings for years on Aikido Journal". I didn't mean to trivialize a long-time poster on Aikido Journal or to show lack of respect, but I'm coming from outside of that, James. I have a moderate level of understanding and abilities (which I can demonstrate, not just talk about) and in my world Tohei and his teachings are simply a variation of something I've seen in many places. It is not the special cloistered world you seem to imagine it is because you have a loyalty to Tohei. Because I'm dispassionate about these things, you make think it's offensive to Tohei and your beliefs, but you'll have to accept it that I'm neither for nor against Tohei or anyone else. I just look at it all as interesting information about a fascinating subject that is quite large. I get information where I can and I try to be as open as I want others to be with me. If you want me to take you seriously and respect your knowledge, how about displaying some of what you know?
Quote:
As for understanding Tohei and his teachings, I understand that slamming me after my last post seems like the order of the day, but I'm not sure you're in a good position to judge my knowledge of Tohei's teachings either way, no matter what I say here.
I dunno.... I can't be the only person in the world who understands this concept, but it is obvious to me that if I engage in a conversation with a real expert (which I don't claim to be) in ki and kokyu things, I'm fully aware that what I say and don't say will give a general indication of what my level of understanding is. Based on what little you've written about ki and kokyu, how little of substance you've been able to contribute, your strange views on "kung fu" and "tai chi", etc., I have a good idea about what your level of understanding is in ki and kokyu things. Your level in what Tohei teaches isn't particularly relevant to the current ki-and-kokyu-focused discussions, despite the fact that you seem to think that the ki things in Aikido are somehow different from ki things in general. If you believe that, please lay out your reasoning, etc.... you can do so without making my personality an issue. I'm asking you to do so once again.
Quote:
Well, research is one thing, talking down to anyone who disagrees with you is quite another. You may not feel guilty of the latter, but if potential sources of info think so, it seriously hamstrings your investigation.
Give us some... *any*... substantive information. You seem to be saying that I'm not recognizing you for the knowledgeable person you are..... you can't win a poker hand without showing any cards at all, James. From my perspective (and I could be wrong), I haven't been "talking down" to anyone, I've been trying to engage a conversation on a certain level and some people feel defensive about that level, as basic as it is... i.e., they want me to drop back into the typical AikiWeb level that they can participate in and are offended if someone doesn't play by the peer rules they imagine are in play. Why don't we stop with all this flummery and just discuss ki and kokyu things? Contribute something. Don't keep hinting, as Shaun does, that you have hidden-but-deep resources of information we would all die to have. Just say something useful and let's go from there.
Quote:
....and you've replied to me much the way you have to everyone who's disagreed with you. And it represents a perspective that is in direct contradiction with the pretense of gathering information and investigating the facts.
Oh, please. Quote me an example instead of these vague charges about my personality... and elaborate on the factual parts of it.
Quote:
But given your past discussions with members of this forum, it seems to be a pattern that whenever anyone says anything about Ki that's different than what you believe, you mark them as being somehow outside of the confines of current Asian practice and ideology (as if you were the sole litmus test.) Perhaps, this is a means of not so surreptitiously saying they're some sort of whack job econoclastic individualist, with little regard for convention, and should be ignored thusly.
Give me some quotes, please, now that you've made the charges. And go to substance as soon as you can on ki and kokyu, rather than this constant harping on your perceptions of my personal flaws. You seem oblivious to the fact that you have not given a single supporting fact to support any of your personal comments and you still have not discussed substantively any aspect of ki or kokyu. Here's your chance. Tell us something substantive about ki and kokyu that is different from what I believe. Then let's discuss it.
Quote:
I've never met Tohei.
Good. So your objections to what I said about Tohei and Ki are simply based on what you believe, not on what Tohei told you. That was my point. I.e., I can see what he does in pictures and on videos and read what he writes and I can compare it all to 25+ years of focusing purely on the ki phenomenon in many arts, your objections notwithstanding. Am I correct in thinking that's permissible? Instead of playing this game that you know secret things, yada, yada, yada, I invite you... and Shaun Ravens, who implies the same things... to take the conversation as an interesting, personality-free discussion about how ki and kokyu things work and simply join in rather than sit on the sidelines and snipe. Anyone can snipe.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-24-2005, 02:12 PM   #103
sanskara
 
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

A couple of things in need of clarification:

1. I do respect Tohei, but also disagree with many aspects of his organization, administration, etc. We actually discussed this in personal e-mails, so you know my views of Ki development don't revolve around Tohei. I actually don't agree with some of his basic philosophy and teaching methods. But that's outside the scope of this conversation.

2. We have talked about Ki and I've been clear, not vague, about my perspectives. I brought up a number of points related to your posts and you decided that that wasn't good enough--your choice. Perhaps, I'm partially at fault for this conflict because of the tone of some of my posts. If an apology will help smooth things over, I offer it for whatever negative roll I've played, but that shouldn't undermine the content of my posts, nor does it erase your liability in the excursion.

3. I've never intimated that I have secret information--not once. However, if you are interested in Tohei's teachings during a certain time period, I have some knowledge of such things. So do others. Ultimately, it shouldn't matter where you get the info from; it doesn't to me.

4. Your insinuation that you can know about a teacher or their organization from watching videos given your background is pretty shaky ground for an argument against someone who was actually immersed in the culture under scrutiny for a number of years. Personally, I wouldn't make it.

5. Lastly, to reiterate, my issue is with your generalizations about Aikido and some of its pioneers--including Shioda, by the way, but I can't speak for the Yoshinkai, so I won't. Which is exactly what I stated earlier. Tohei is just one example, not necessarily the most prevalent. It just happens to be a subject I know well enough to debate, and therefore have.

By the way, I don't know Shaun Ravens, but I followed your discussion with him in the forum. It seems to me that given he is/was a student of Abe for a number of years, you might want to take his word on Abe's teachings and perspectives, especially since you're doing research and all that, and may not necessarily have any other connection with that branch of Aikido. I wouldn't be so quick dismiss any offers I got in that area if I were genuinely searching for knowledge with an open mind and not just looking to feed a confirmation bias. Your mileage may vary.

Regards,
James Bostwick
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Old 04-24-2005, 03:16 PM   #104
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Quote:
James Bostwick wrote:
2. We have talked about Ki and I've been clear, not vague, about my perspectives. I brought up a number of points related to your posts and you decided that that wasn't good enough--your choice.
Here's the only definitive things I could find that you *opined*... you backed up your opinions, though, only with "there appear to be" and "I have to think".

> And yet, there do appear to be obvious differences between Ueshiba's
> movements and those found in Chinese arts. To my eye, the difference in
> rythm and overall mechanics looks to be a different flavor of Ki
> manipulation--not necessarily better or worse, just different. The most
> telling thing, though, is Ueshiba's "inability" to transmit what he had,
> or as you suggested, unwillingness. But for someone who surely wanted
> Aikido to spread, I have to think it was the former, rather than the
> latter. Perhaps, he never full understood why he was able to do what he
> did.

So basically, all you have said is that the ki of Aikido (or Ueshiba) is different, in your opinion, from the ki used in Chinese martial arts. Your later comments indicated that you in fact know almost nothing about Chinese martial arts, though. So we're left with you perhaps still taking the position that the ki in Aikido is not the ki used in Chinese martial arts. So I'd like to see you support how this can be true.
Quote:
4. Your insinuation that you can know about a teacher or their organization from watching videos given your background is pretty shaky ground for an argument against someone who was actually immersed in the culture under scrutiny for a number of years. Personally, I wouldn't make it.
I think the basic point is that you're maintaining that the ki Tohei uses must be different from the ki everyone else uses and therefore I could not possibly understand what Tohei is really doing. So let's start with your making a case for why the ki of Aikido is different from what I know and which is in other martial arts.
Quote:
5. Lastly, to reiterate, my issue is with your generalizations about Aikido and some of its pioneers--including Shioda, by the way, but I can't speak for the Yoshinkai, so I won't. Which is exactly what I stated earlier. Tohei is just one example, not necessarily the most prevalent. It just happens to be a subject I know well enough to debate, and therefore have.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Is it something along the lines of I'm not qualified to make generalizations, I don't have permission from the Aikido Committee to make generalizations, I can't make generalizations unless I studied with Tohei personally, or what? You're not being clear.
Quote:
By the way, I don't know Shaun Ravens, but I followed your discussion with him in the forum. It seems to me that given he is/was a student of Abe for a number of years, you might want to take his word on Abe's teachings and perspectives, especially since you're doing research and all that, and may not necessarily have any other connection with that branch of Aikido. I wouldn't be so quick dismiss any offers I got in that area if I were genuinely searching for knowledge with an open mind and not just looking to feed a confirmation bias. Your mileage may vary.
I asked Shaun repeatedly to clarify his positions, but he appears to prefer to go to personalities instead of substantive give-and-take discussion. Here is the only substantive thing he's said since I joined the forum, and he seems want to avoid any commitments on what Ki is, how to practice, etc. :

(From the Misogi thread)
However, for the record, and again just so that we are all working from the
same page. Kokyu-ho is the breathing method applied when practicing
Kokyu-dosa (popular breath exercise usually done with a partner, in seiza)


So Shaun has defined Kokyu-ho-dosa as a breath exercise done with a partner. I have said somewhere previously what I think it is. All he needs to do is explain why he thinks it is a practice in a "breathing method" and we can go forward and avoid these discussions about personality. If you could explain why you think the ki of Aikido is different from the ki used in other martial arts, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-24-2005, 03:35 PM   #105
sanskara
 
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Actually, since you've quoted my e-mail, I'll also quote the message I sent subsequently, in the same series of communications, to clarify my position in the matter.

Quote:
The point is that there are different "flavors" of Ki. That it's all Ki is not the point. Getting thrown/punched by two practitioners of Ki-related arts can often feel different and result in varying effect. The energy may be the same, but the concentration/channeling may differ. It is my contention that the body dynamics often flow from this manipulation of Ki. But it goes without saying that some forms of kinesthetics are simply expedient for a given battlefield or combat situation, and born more of practicality than esoteric practices.
I'll also add that I was not saying that Tohei's Ki was unique. Just that you are not necessarily qualified to say that you know what he's doing with it because you have a background in Chinese arts and have watched him on film.

But this shouldn't be a Tohei-centric discussion, the same objections can be applied to your views on Abe, Shioda, and Tada. You are qualified to have opinions in this matter (everyone with a login and password is) but it is not gospel, simply because you say it's so. And people who take umbrage with your generalizations are not necessarily enemies to be slain and ridiculed. You're in a public forum, anyone can respond within the rules of this site. If you're having difficulty with that, then you may need to consider gathering your information through other means.

But at this point, we've beaten this to death. The last word is yours.

Last edited by sanskara : 04-24-2005 at 03:42 PM.

Regards,
James Bostwick
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Old 04-24-2005, 04:01 PM   #106
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Quote:
James Bostwick wrote:
Actually, since you've quoted my e-mail, I'll also quote the message I sent subsequently, in the same series of communications, to clarify my position in the matter.
Quote:
The point is that there are different "flavors" of Ki. That it's all Ki is not the point. Getting thrown/punched by two practitioners of Ki-related arts can often feel different and result in varying effect. The energy may be the same, but the concentration/channeling may differ. It is my contention that the body dynamics often flow from this manipulation of Ki. But it goes without saying that some forms of kinesthetics are simply expedient for a given battlefield or combat situation, and born more of practicality than esoteric practices.
I'll also add that I was not saying that Tohei's Ki was unique. Just that you are not necessarily qualified to say that you know what he's doing with it because you have a background in Chinese arts and have watched him on film.
But you haven't changed anything... you're still stating your opinion, but asserting that the "concentration/channeling" is different. How about some sort of support to these oddities instead of just assertion. Your argument is that the ki in Aikido is somehow different than the ki in other things, yet you offer no support.

Secondly, I say it again...this is NOT a martial arts discussion. It's a discussion about ki and kokyu. I have about 8 years of experience in Judo, about the same (not simultaneous, either) in Okinawan karate, and roughly another 8 in Aikido... so my background is fairly large in Japanese martial arts, as well. Let's just stick with ki and kokyu and leave all the side issues, please. I asked you to support your position about the ki and kokyu being different and now you're also saying something vague, and strange, about the "concentration/channeling"... could you support that please? So far, you've offered opinions and insults and one apology, but you have not made a single substantive support for your assertions. In my opinion, if you want to discuss an issue you'll need to formulate and articulate your thoughts. If you can't marshall a compelling argument, don't take it out on the other guy.

Lastly, let me point out clearly your problem of the "different ki's" thesis that you're saying bars me from making general observations. What Tohei, Shioda, and others that I've commented on (from observation and other data) do are very well-known and recognized phenomena. I.e., it is not me by myself that would identify what they do as standard ki/kokyu things. I'm not putting myself alone as an expert on ki and you're questioning my ability to make observations, I'm making those observations with the extreme secure feeling of knowing that I haven't said anything radical or risky. So for your thesis to be true, you're essentially having to posit that there are two different phenomena in human capability that appear to be the same, but they're actually different. If we take your argument back to basic increments of how the human body works, etc., your *assertion* of differences will fail... and you should know that, just from common sense. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and it looks like a duck, it's not a penguin.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-24-2005, 04:25 PM   #107
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Don't keep hinting, as Shaun does, that you have hidden-but-deep resources of information we would all die to have.
As for me, I have no hidden source for anything. My sources are well known, both on these forums and in the real world. What I have said is that if there was someone willing to take the time to get out from behind their keyboard, and in your case off your pulpit, that I would take them directly to my sources to see for themselves, feel for themselves, ask questions for themselves, so that they may make up their own minds. It doesn't seem that you care to do this at all, and have even gone as far as saying that you are here for your very own selfish reasons - that you are seeking information and that once you have it you will be gone. I said to you before that this is a two-way street, and that you would find it a troubling place if you came here wanting information, making demands, pretending to be able to evaluate teachers by watching a video or reading their interviews when their own students spending major portions of their lives with their teachers were unable to do so.

If you want an example, as you always "demand" here is one. You keep insisting that Abe Sensei went somewhere else for his information. I am telling you here and now that you are wrong. I have asked him this, and we have discussed it at length. Time and time, again, you go on about how he did things outside of his training with O-Sensei, and time and time again I have told you that this was before he met O-Sensei and that once he did meet him he altered his training methods and completely focused on what O-Sensei was teaching him. He said that when he encountered O-Sensei's methods that he realized that his own were insufficient to get him to reach the goals that he had set for himself. It doesn't get any plainer than that, yet you continue to deride Abe Sensei's relationship with O-Sensei. You either have your own agenda, or you simply have a blind spot when it comes to dealing with facts because as James just noted, "They differ from your own conclusions, ones which are based upon information that you can't possibly even know.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Instead of playing this game that you know secret things, yada, yada, yada, I invite you... and Shaun Ravens, who implies the same things... to take the conversation as an interesting, personality-free discussion about how ki and kokyu things work and simply join in rather than sit on the sidelines and snipe.

Personally, Mike I find it interesting how you keep demanding a personality-free conversation, yet can't seem to get your personality out of the way. In fact, you deliberately put it in the way. That is what James, I and others have pointed to, over and over and over, but alas it is you who can't get passed it. Simply speaking, you don't feel that you should pay the cover charge at the door, and then complain that you are being accosted once inside.

As for the sidelines, you are simply full of it. Here and now I ask you to step up and put out the names of the Aikido teachers with whom in the last six months you have made an on the mat inquiry into the ki and Kokyu of Aikido, rather than show up with your preconceived notion that everything is the same, and you are here to tell everyone how we all have been missing it.

Truth be know, the reason the probable answer to the above question is "no one" not that you will come out and say it, is because someone like Abe Sensei wouldn't waste his time on you - no matter what you think you know, or what you even do know. What you can't understand is that with the piss-poor selfish attitude that you have show from day one, and your inability to understand how to show respect dictates that even if you had ten times the cover charge and were willing to pay it, you still wouldn't get in.

There is a saying, at least in Aikido, I am not sure if it is one that is repeated in the Chinese circles within which you travel, but it goes something like this, "If you want to learn anything here, you first need to have a major attitude adjustment"

I have said it before and I will say it again, I feel it a great loss because for anyone who might be truly interested in what you have to share might not ever approach you because of your selfish need to be closed to someone until they "prove" themselves to you in some forum where you think you make the rules, but in truth are just crapping on those who came before you who actually did make them.

Once again, I invite you to step out from behind your computer, and show up for the Aiki-Expo. Of course, you won't not even anonymously to see it for yourself. However, I invite you just the same.



.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 04-24-2005, 04:45 PM   #108
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
(snip post with not a single substantive comment about ki or kokyu)
Once again, Shaun, you've done nothing but personally attack. So I take it the last thing you have to say on kokyu is:
Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
However, for the record, and again just so that we are all working from the
same page. Kokyu-ho is the breathing method applied when practicing
Kokyu-dosa (popular breath exercise usually done with a partner, in seiza)
It's a direct quote. Why don't we just leave it there along with your repeated personal attacks and mischaracterizations of what I've said? I'll be glad to respond to any substantive discussion about the issues.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 04-24-2005 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 04-24-2005, 04:49 PM   #109
SeiserL
 
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Once again, I invite you to step out from behind your computer, and show up for the Aiki-Expo. Of course, you won't not even anonymously to see it for yourself. However, I invite you just the same.
Shaun, I look forward to seeing you (and others) again at the Expo.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-24-2005, 08:10 PM   #110
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
Shaun, I look forward to seeing you (and others) again at the Expo.
Lynn,

Thanks! I will be on the mat with Matsuoka Sensei on Satuday and will be around for the demo on Saturday evening. Perhaps those of us on the board can set up a time to get together between the event and the demo, or shortly thereafter for a soda, brew or stronger at one of the local establishments. We can keep a chair open at the head of the table for Mr. Sigman in hopes that he will step out from behind the tall, dark shadow he likes to cast down upon the rest of us, though I won't hold my breath...



.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 04-24-2005, 09:00 PM   #111
rob_liberti
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

I'm looking forward to meeting some of you at the Expo too!

James and Shaun, those posts were awesome.

It is a fact that several people have posted about Mike's personality - especially the way he treats people he disagrees with - is a problem that gets in the way of discussions. It is also a fact that no one is posting that about anyone else.
Quote:
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and it looks like a duck, it's not a penguin.
.

About kokyu: I'd say that when something is clearly in the way of the flow, you should probably consider trying to change it.

Rob
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Old 04-24-2005, 09:06 PM   #112
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Once again, Shaun, you've done nothing but personally attack. So I take it the last thing you have to say on kokyu is: It's a direct quote. Why don't we just leave it there along with your repeated personal attacks and mischaracterizations of what I've said? I'll be glad to respond to any substantive discussion about the issues.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike,

You get back what you put out. I, for one am not here to garner any information, from you, or otherwise. If I was really interested in what you had to say, I would show up at one of your events, pay the fee and do the work. Therefore, I am not really concerned whether the likes of you care for me or not. However, you, one who seems to be interested in pilfering information from those on the board want to do so without paying the fee, which in this case is in the form of respect for those who just might have something which you seek.

As for mischaracterizing you, I have not done so in any way, shape or form. I merely stepped up and said to you what everyone is saying, both to you here on the board and behind your back. We all want to understand why a guy who says he wants to learn so much about the "ura" side of aikido, can't even get past lesson one, that being that martial arts begin with respect and end with respect. Sure, what may happen in between can and will take many forms, but you have to get beyond the first bow, which you have yet to do. You see, it really isn't what you know, think you know or otherwise that matters at all here. We all know you know something, but in truth, based on your disrespectful nature, who really cares?

I have on several occasions put all your insulting B.S. aside and bowed down in an effort to move things forward. You either haven't noticed, don't care to notice or are unable to notice that it is your turn to step up and acknowledge where you have been full of yourself.

I said directly to you in my last post that, once again, you have been disrespectful. And once again, in your last post you step over it without an apology. If that is your way of being, and it is your only way of being, well that is your right. I will not judge you for it. However, even in a debate there are both rules of debate and rules of decorum. When it comes to debating, while winning may be important, for me it is not first and foremost. To do so without observing the rules of decorum would be in bad fashion. However, when one person takes the gloves off, spits in their hand and slaps others in the face, as you so often do, it becomes less about debating within the rules as it does about just winning simply to uphold the higher truth, and not let those who take the low road to get off without equal reciprocity. Speaking clearly, while you may believe this to be a conversation about kokyu, it is in this case more about you being disrespectful of the Art, of the Founder, of the Senior teachers and even us lowly forum members. If you don't like being called a jerk, stop acting like one, or worse, pretending that you don't, or that it doesn't matter that you do. Do you think that you would get away with that on the mat with Tohei Sensei, Abe Sensei, Shioda Sensei, or the like? Obviously not - you would be thrown out of the dojo, or even more likely, just allowed to pay your tuition, never being given much information at all and left to wonder why there was not substance in aikido. Oh, wait, isn't that what already happened to you in Aikido? Isn't that why you said that you left? Well, low and behold, yes, yes, that is what you said. Yet, here you are again back with the same old questions, and the same old lousy attitude. Do you really imagine that the results will be any different? Obviously not.

So, when it comes to your statement of "So I take it the last thing you have to say on kokyu is..." separate from the fact that as usual you have misread what I said, and therefore drawn an incorrect conclusion about it, What I will say is - no it is not the last thing I have to say about kokyu, but until you sincerely apologize for crapping on the feet of those from whom you say you are interested in obtaining information, it is the last thing about kokyu I will say to you. However, I do reserve the right to come back here and say that you are acting like an ass when you do so, whether you like it or not, or consider even consider it germane to a conversation about kokyu.

Oh, one last thing, as for this not being a conversation about martial arts... perhaps that is where you should take a step back and take another look, as it may be at the very source of your misguided foray into Aikido forums, wherever they may be found. You see, when it comes to martial artists, it doesn't matter if you are talking about the weather - it is always martial arts, all the time. While making that mistake here on the boards is bound to result in a minimum of karmic effect back into your life, doing so in your life may result in someone taking offense and ending your life for you in short order. Hopefully in that case your standing postures will measure up to the level which you like to bandy them about here on the AikiWeb board.




.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 04-24-2005, 09:27 PM   #113
SeiserL
 
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
I will be on the mat with Matsuoka Sensei on Satuday and will be around for the demo on Saturday evening. Perhaps those of us on the board can set up a time to get together between the event and the demo, or shortly thereafter for a soda, brew or stronger at one of the local establishments.
Saturday 2/28/05 10:30 AM mat D.
I'll be on the mat with Phong Sensei.
See you there.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-26-2005, 12:57 PM   #114
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Quote:
and there's not a big mystery why O-Sensei thought his art was different than Aiki-jujitsu ... it's actually pretty high level if you look at it as being at heart a system that uses sophisticated kokyu controls in an engagement.
Hi Mike (your friend passed on your greeting...thanks for having him get in touch),
I'm not sure I can agree with that statement...ki and kokyu seem (from my novice point of view) to be
be at a pretty high level in Daito ryu (both then and now)...they also speak of aiki needing to happen at the moment of contact, and demonstrate the same. Daito ryu sources might say that the reason he changed the name of his art is that his teacher was a bit miffed with him...miffed enough to stroll into a dojo of Ueshiba's in Osaka and take over the instruction there. Not to mention a time when Ueshiba at least seemed to find it best to be elsewhere when his teacher came calling. Both good reasons for changing the name of what he did, technical reasons aside. Just a thought...

As to the side issues here, I note that Peter Goldsbury seems as always to stay above the fray somehow...I'm still trying to learn how to do that myself. It seems one way is to let any personal comments just pass by. I hope to do so more and more often (perfect practice might actually have a chance to make perfect).

Best,
Ron

PS Hi James B. good to see you posting. Missed you!
RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-26-2005, 01:42 PM   #115
rob_liberti
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Hi Ron,

Your post got me thinking. Were the Daito ryu people miffed at him for teaching what he taught in the name of Daito ryu? I have heard that O-sensei took on all challenges. You'd think that someone from his old Daito ryu school would have done just that if they were miffed with him. (Unless, changing the name got him out of the dog house.)

As to the side issue: My opinion is that it has a lot more to do with Mike's previous description of how _he_ would like to see this online forum as a virtual dojo, where _he_ decided who was a sempai, dohai, and kohai, and seemed to treat people according to _his_ ranking system.

I really must see things differently from you but from my perspective, you have consistently stated that you are not bothered by the things Mike has written which have offended others, and yet you have commented on your disatisfaction with those people's responses. Shouldn't those responses "just pass by" you too? I mean no offense. I really can't see where you must be coming from.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 04-26-2005 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 04-26-2005, 02:00 PM   #116
Ron Tisdale
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Wink Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Hi Ron,

Your post got me thinking.
Where the Daito ryu people miffed at him for teaching what he tought in the name of Daito ryu?
I used the word a little faciciously...but I guess you'll have to reach your own conclusions. On the one hand, Takeda Sensei said something like 'what Ueshiba has taught you is fine...now for the next level"...on the other hand, its said that he tried to meet up with Ueshiba, and couldn't...and he did take over that dojo. I can't claim to have the definitive answer. Read some of the interviews and research at aikido journal.

Quote:
I heard that O-sensei took on all challenges. You'd think that someone from his old Daito ryu school would have done just that if they were miffed with him. (Unless, changing the name got him out of the dog house.)
My own opinion is that it got him out of the dog house...and its hard to challenge someone if you can't find them because they disappear every time you come to town. And please, realize that I mean no disrespect to either party by saying these things. I think we should also realize that there may have been some issues about money and prestige involved.

Quote:
I really must see things differently from you but from my perspective, you have consistently stated that you are not bothered by the things Mike has written which have offended others, and yet you have commented on your disatisfaction with those people's responses. Shouldn't those responses "just pass by" you too? I mean no offense. I really can't see where you must be coming from.
Rob
Hmm...I try not to be bothered by some things in Mike's manner...in the past, it stopped me from getting interesting perspectives. I actually am friendly with and appreciative of the others who are posting who disagree with Mike (yourself included). How can I put this...I see the same problems you do (and I believe I have said that before...), I have posted quotes from people I felt Mike misrepresented, and I don't believe I have commented too much or too strongly on other people's responses.

I just feel if we let some of the snide remarks pass, we can continue to have a good conversation. I've seen Peter G. have productive conversations with some of the banes of these forums (I don't think names are needed here ). All I'm saying is that maybe we could look at how he does that...and that I could use some of his skill too. I should add that my closing sentence was as much for Mike as for anyone one else...And that all should feel free to ignore it. After all, I've got my own distastefull quirks...

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 04-26-2005 at 02:05 PM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 04-26-2005, 02:44 PM   #117
rob_liberti
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Fair enough.

That's kind of funny. Then, I'll take on all announced challengers too. (I'm great at hiding!)

Rob
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Old 03-07-2010, 11:54 AM   #118
bob_stra
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Regarding Standing Practice: One of Shioda's uchi-deshi recently published an account of his training at http://www.yoshinkan.info/deshi.php

"The training in this course consists of three parts starting from basic movements. The basic movements are like "Kata" in Karate which can train the physical strength of legs and groin necessary for Aikido techniques. In the basic movements you must stand with 80 percent of your body weight rested on one leg for about five minutes moving both left and right with different movements."

Best

Ellis Amdur
Sorry to necromance but -

The fellow in the above article (I used wayback to doublecheck) appears to me Michiharu Mori Sensei - who is alive and well and teaching in Brisbane.

Has anyone trained with him? Does he employ anything like the above quoted regimen with his students?

Here's a clip of Mori Sensei in action. As you can see, he's the spitting image of Shioda, movement wise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRHKw_riHDQ

Last edited by bob_stra : 03-07-2010 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 03-13-2010, 06:18 AM   #119
greenapple
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Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

more details regarding Mori Sensei at Brisbane Australia

http://www.yoshinkan.info/index.php?pageID=History
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