Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Open Discussions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-09-2005, 04:18 AM   #1
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
"Osensei"

found this on Bullshido.com posted by masoyama:

http://www.chidokai.org/

Check out the "History" page, where you can read all about, "Osensei Rosen".

You can then of course go on to read about the $140 a month charge, and the lack of contact sparring, etc. until two years of practice.

May I hear your thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2005, 09:18 AM   #2
syraikidoka
Dojo: Aikido Of CNY
Location: Central New York
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 13
United_States
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Maybe I am not seeing something here, but why exactly are you singling out this website and dojo to dump on?

Even though I am skeptical of anyone who starts their own system, it does not seem that he has drastically changed what he was taught by his instructors.

Are you up in arms that he has called himself "Osensei"? Im pretty sure that his ryu has nothing to do with Aikido and in fact "O-Sensei" just means great teacher. Its not like he is calling himself Ueshiba. He had to pick a title for himself and obviously he settled on that one. It is no more or less pompous than "Soke" or "Grand Poobah of the Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes" (Flintstones Reference). Its just a title.

And 140 bucks for unlimited practice and 4 private sessions a month...I don't call that too bad. Further, from a business standpoint, if the market allows it - good for him. If not, he will have to lower prices. Basic supply and demand

And to your other gripes, maybe his dojo isn't for you but "live and let live" or "learn and let teach"

Respectfully,

Syraikidoka
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2005, 09:39 AM   #3
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,620
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Quote:
Michael Rann wrote:
Maybe I am not seeing something here, but why exactly are you singling out this website and dojo to dump on?

Even though I am skeptical of anyone who starts their own system, it does not seem that he has drastically changed what he was taught by his instructors.

Are you up in arms that he has called himself "Osensei"? Im pretty sure that his ryu has nothing to do with Aikido and in fact "O-Sensei" just means great teacher. Its not like he is calling himself Ueshiba. He had to pick a title for himself and obviously he settled on that one. It is no more or less pompous than "Soke" or "Grand Poobah of the Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes" (Flintstones Reference). Its just a title.

And 140 bucks for unlimited practice and 4 private sessions a month...I don't call that too bad. Further, from a business standpoint, if the market allows it - good for him. If not, he will have to lower prices. Basic supply and demand

And to your other gripes, maybe his dojo isn't for you but "live and let live" or "learn and let teach"

Respectfully,

Syraikidoka
The national average for martial arts instruction now is about $120 per month so this guy is just on the high side.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2005, 10:33 AM   #4
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Hi George,

Does that average include four private lessons a month? Every place I knew would have had four private lessons at least equaling around $120 - not counting the regular dojo membership. When I was in my Kenpo federation, the rank and title scale of my person had private lessons going for $100 an hour - something I never charged (since I didn't charge at all) but there it was. This guy seems to be charging something like $5 a private lesson - that doesn't sound too bad at all. Do you happen to know what the average private lesson fee is for martial arts instruction?

curious,
dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2005, 06:55 PM   #5
JayRhone
Location: St. George, UT
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 44
United_States
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

I know my old school used to charge something like $40 an hour and now that it's bigger I believe it's more around $60-80. Private lessons in utah are up there. to. much. for. me
JayR

Be the water, not the rock
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2005, 09:41 PM   #6
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Quote:
Michael Rann wrote:
Maybe I am not seeing something here, but why exactly are you singling out this website and dojo to dump on?

Even though I am skeptical of anyone who starts their own system, it does not seem that he has drastically changed what he was taught by his instructors.

Are you up in arms that he has called himself "Osensei"? Im pretty sure that his ryu has nothing to do with Aikido and in fact "O-Sensei" just means great teacher. Its not like he is calling himself Ueshiba. He had to pick a title for himself and obviously he settled on that one. It is no more or less pompous than "Soke" or "Grand Poobah of the Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes" (Flintstones Reference). Its just a title.

And 140 bucks for unlimited practice and 4 private sessions a month...I don't call that too bad. Further, from a business standpoint, if the market allows it - good for him. If not, he will have to lower prices. Basic supply and demand

And to your other gripes, maybe his dojo isn't for you but "live and let live" or "learn and let teach"

Respectfully,

Syraikidoka
Can you think of any other martial art, where the founder is commonly referred to as "O-Sensei"? It's basically just "Soke" repackaged and spit back out.

The average is in fact, $60-$100 a month. $140 a month for a non-traditional, non-certifiable system with NO sparring (or "contact" for that matter) for 2 years...C'mon now. Let's put on our thinking caps.

My other gripes? Please. If you want people going around sucking the cash out of susceptible and unknowing people's pockets, go right ahead, but it doesn't make you part of the solution, it makes you part of the problem. I figured the people here would feel at least a little umcomfortable that possible McDojos were moving on from "Soke", "Grand Master", etc. to "O-Sensei", which is undoubtedly, no matter the meaning associated with Aikido, and linked by common sense to said art. Guess I was wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2005, 10:09 PM   #7
Mashu
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 106
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

What can anyone really do unless he breaks the law?

From the site:
Quote:
Our adult advanced ranked students spar using no protective equipment and hair pulling, eye gauging, chokes, joint locks, and strikes to the groin are encouraged.
Might be worth it just to watch a class.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2005, 10:10 PM   #8
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Well, I'm not out to debate the merits of the so-called McDojo, and/or to discredit or credit any school as being one, and I certainly don't know enough information to state with any surety what the average dojo dues is per month - since I know of no study claiming such data - so I'm not out to really debate anything here. However, I can say that there are indeed other arts, some even traditional, that do indeed refer to their founder as "Osensei" on a regular basis. If you do a google search, I'm sure you will come across many of them since I'm sure they are not hiding themselves and/or hiding the fact that they employ this term as a Japanese word used to refer to someone as a founder and/or as someone worthy of great respect, etc.

dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2005, 10:17 PM   #9
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Quote:
Matthew Zsebik wrote:
What can anyone really do unless he breaks the law?

From the site:

Might be worth it just to watch a class.

If that were the case they're be a bunch of bald, blind, impotent douches slapping at each other.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2005, 10:20 PM   #10
Mashu
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 106
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Well, I guess the matter will resolve itself eventually then.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2005, 10:31 PM   #11
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Quote:
Matthew Zsebik wrote:
Well, I guess the matter will resolve itself eventually then.

Good point.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2005, 12:19 AM   #12
Rupert Atkinson
Dojo: Wherever I am
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 736
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

deleted

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 04-10-2005 at 12:28 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2005, 09:44 AM   #13
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,620
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Hi George,

Does that average include four private lessons a month? Every place I knew would have had four private lessons at least equaling around $120 - not counting the regular dojo membership. When I was in my Kenpo federation, the rank and title scale of my person had private lessons going for $100 an hour - something I never charged (since I didn't charge at all) but there it was. This guy seems to be charging something like $5 a private lesson - that doesn't sound too bad at all. Do you happen to know what the average private lesson fee is for martial arts instruction?

curious,
dmv
No, I don't think that would cover a bunch of privates. It's just an average so the folks paying on the high end are doing privates, are in the Black Belt Club, etc. The numbers came out of one of the numerous trade journals we all get because we have dojos. I don't have any reason to disbelieve it. One of my students got involved with the Oom Yung Do folks and was paying $250 / month till he wised up. The "Temple Kung Fu dojo chain here in town won't even tell you what their actual dues are till after you complete their Trial Membership...

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2005, 09:49 AM   #14
Dominic Toupin
Location: Quebec City
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 72
Canada
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

In a karate organization that I know, a grade committee give traditional rank but also title. When you pass your shodan exam, you are called "Sensei". When you start your own dojo, give good classes, maintain a intensive practice, when you improve and pass another degree etc. you can get another title in order Osensei, Shihan, Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi. It just a matter of recognition...

Dominic
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2005, 05:35 PM   #15
p00kiethebear
 
p00kiethebear's Avatar
Dojo: Tonbo Dojo
Location: Bainbridge Island WA
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 373
United_States
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

how is 140$ un reasonable at all? If the guy was a fraud i could understand but...

It's the saddest thing that a plumber who spends 2 years as an apprentice can be making 100$ an hour right when they enter the working world. But martial artists who have dedicated their entire lives to something that is arguably, more valuable, get screwed and tend to make very little money at all.

I'm not saying that martial arts instructors should be rich. But you really can't put a price on the kind of things we teach in our dojos.

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2005, 06:22 PM   #16
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 558
Malaysia
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Quote:
Dominic Toupin wrote:
In a karate organization that I know, a grade committee give traditional rank but also title. When you pass your shodan exam, you are called "Sensei". When you start your own dojo, give good classes, maintain a intensive practice, when you improve and pass another degree etc. you can get another title in order Osensei, Shihan, Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi. It just a matter of recognition...
LOL. Thanks, Dominic, for starting my day on humorous mode. I wonder why the Chinese MA system doesn't have this string of titles.

The only school that I know that used the title "O Sensei" is the Shotokan/Shotokai. They referred Gichin Funakoshi as O sensei because there was two Funakoshi teaching at that time; the students referred his son, Giko Funakoshi, as Waka sensei. Both father and son were masters (meigin) in their own standing. Mas Oyama, founder of Kyokushin karate, even spoke highly of the son in his biography. In the traditional way, recognition came from the community at large and not just from within ones school or style.

Regards

David Y
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2005, 08:43 PM   #17
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Quote:
Nathan Gidney wrote:
how is 140$ un reasonable at all?
I guess it would really depend on the cost of living in your area. Here $140/month would be considered unreasonable. 2 1/2-3 hours away in Chicago it would probably be more acceptable.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2005, 09:00 PM   #18
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Our dues is suggested at $90 for a single adult, $50 for students, and $150 for two or more family members. Dues aren't delineated on any kind of per hour basis - it's more like what it takes to keep the school running and growing - so most members actually contribute more than the suggested amount each month, and we have classes about three hours per day for every member. But here in Santa Barbara, there are quite a few other dojo that are either at $140 per month for a single adult and/or right up there (if not more). So I guess Santa Barbara is another one of those areas where such an amount (i.e. $140) is not "too out of the question." It does seem that place is relative and relevant.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2005, 09:26 AM   #19
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

This dojo is in a rich area, aka, Scottsdale, AZ[i believe] (much like Suburbian chicago or Santa Barbara), so thats probably why his rates are $140.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2005, 07:38 PM   #20
Dominic Toupin
Location: Quebec City
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 72
Canada
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
LOL. Thanks, Dominic, for starting my day on humorous mode. I wonder why the Chinese MA system doesn't have this string of titles.
What is in that sentence that makes you so happy ???

Dominic
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2005, 07:01 AM   #21
Cyrijl
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 188
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

the system may be silly and ineffective, but that does not make the guy necessarily a fraud

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2005, 08:15 AM   #22
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Aikido sounds like a very expensive buisness in america, I and most people I train with wouldnt be able to pay prices like those

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2005, 08:37 AM   #23
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Looks like theyve got a nice training area and a lot of good ideas, such as the after school activities for kids and stuff. The only things that ring alarm bells with me are the cost, the school fees seem to be slightly higher than most aikido tuition ive heard of in the US, but the afterschool thing is damn expensive. I suppose becuase its being run more as a babysitting service than anything else.

The other thing is the guys title as O'sensei and his being in the martial arts for twenty years. If he stuck at one style for 20 years that would prolly put him at about 3rd or 4th dan, maybe 5th dan tops. But hes jumped around between 3 or 4 styles. Maybe he is a great teacher but I just really dislike these types of instructors with their jumped up titles and delusions of grandeur.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2005, 09:05 AM   #24
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Aikido sounds like a very expensive buisness in america, I and most people I train with wouldnt be able to pay prices like those
At the current exchange rate, it only works out to 5 quid a month, Nick.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2005, 10:12 AM   #25
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: "Osensei"

Haha, I know the pounds supposed to be strong at the moment Mike, but...

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Bruce Bookman Weekend Intensive - Bruce Bookman Intensive at Aikido of MD Tenzankai! Feb 22-24. Columbia MD



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:27 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate