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Old 05-24-2005, 07:56 AM   #176
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
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Ukemi on correct technique

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Can there ever be a correct aikido technique if uke can take ukemi from it? As such is the technique not then flawed in some way?
Interesting "koan".
Well, for aikido the answer is easy: the way of aiki, done in a dojo for the benefit of all participants, should be done so that ukemi is both possible and pleasant. A peaceful solution to the problem.

For self defense applications outside of the dojo, other answers might apply.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 05-24-2005, 03:22 PM   #177
DustinAcuff
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Ukemi is just falling and taking less than 100% impact. once you let uke go, you no longer have any control over him, so in a throw then yes, uke always has the option (maybe not ability) to do ukemi. but, the degree really depends on how skilled uke and nage are. if uke is thrown up 10 ft in the air (around 3m) then can he recover? maybe, doubtful. even if he falls right, there is a huge diffrence between a mat and concrete. So when you ask the question "can you ukemi from a proper technique" the answer is yes. the better questions are : "does uke have good enough ukemi" "what surface is uke landing on" "what did I throw uke at" "If uke has ukemi, will it make a diffrence"

if you throw uke into a full force 6ft off the ground kaiten nage into a brick wall uke probably wont get up for a while, if he lives through it. If you throw him into a pond, the result could be a little diffrent.
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Old 05-25-2005, 02:14 AM   #178
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
if you throw uke into a full force 6ft off the ground kaiten nage into a brick wall uke probably wont get up for a while, if he lives through it. If you throw him into a pond, the result could be a little diffrent.
My experience tends to show me that they need at least a basic knowlege of Aikido to get that far. Usually if uke doesn't step back they go face first through the floor as you cut down, there is no ukemi as such. It's only if uke steps back that you get as far as changing hands, controling the neck and stepping through to produce the "throw" as such.
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Old 05-25-2005, 11:19 AM   #179
DustinAcuff
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Re: Defending against Aikido

That is pretty much what I was trying to say. I've never had an uke "step back" so I am not sure what you are talking about, but I do know that I've never changed hands or needed a neck reinforcement to produce the technique or needed uke's assistance. Out of curioscity how are you preforming it? It is always useful to know more variations.
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Old 05-26-2005, 07:57 AM   #180
Randathamane
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Right..... How to explain....... give me a moment.......

Uchikitennage From aihanmi katatedori
forward foot Irimi at an angle to uke's body to stretch them out (in the direction of the hand that has you).

raise your had up to Jodan- as if you were going to cut shomen.
Tenkan under the arm and cut down in a big circle (shomen) and cut back

change hands so that you have Uke by the neck and the hand they grabbed you with is held above their head. their other hand will be pushed against the floor trying to keep themselves upright.
Step and throw.

As Alex points out, if Uke does not step back at the cut, thy cannot put their other arm forward and hit the floor (some of the bigger lot just don't move[unless we use the cheap shot of Knee to the ribs]) ).


Good against remotes are one thing- good against the living, thats somthing else....
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Old 05-26-2005, 08:32 AM   #181
Dazzler
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
That is pretty much what I was trying to say. I've never had an uke "step back" so I am not sure what you are talking about, but I do know that I've never changed hands or needed a neck reinforcement to produce the technique or needed uke's assistance. Out of curioscity how are you preforming it? It is always useful to know more variations.
In the interest of variety....and not for a second suggesting that this is either good or any use to anyone other than the curious...since it is extracted from our syllabus for 5th kyu and part of a development process that works for us...but may be totally irrelevant to those on a different route up the aikido mountain. At 5th kyu this is also a pretty simplistic version.

Quote:
unpublished author wrote:
GYAKU HAMNI KATATE DORI, UCHI KAITEN NAGE

We always talk about uchi kaiten nage as preparation for sankkyo. The demands placed upon Tori also mean it is a great vehicle for practice of Haysabachi (wrist turning, Happo geri (8 directional foot movement), posture breaking, kokyoho-rokyu-ho (breathing & co-ordination) , centering and use of spiralling movement.

All of these benefits are explored as our syllabus develops, perhaps at this 5th kyu level it is best to focus on kamae -- be offline, shisei -- good posture and maai -- correct distance.

The other benefits can be looked at further in the syllabus -- yet another advantage of viewing the moves as tool and not fixed techniques. In this case the tool can be selectively used to develop a subset of its potential bases.

So for 5th kyu, start in standard position, wrist held and standing slightly off line. Using omote first, assume toris right wrist is held, extend this arm to ukes 3rd point and simultaneously strike to tori's face. This move takes ukes arm out to the side to the limit of its natural extension. At the same time mirror the move of the right arm with the right leg opening the hip as you do so.

Following the strike Tori is about to step under this arm. So when it is extended it can be raised high. Obviously this makes room for a taller person to step under. From an aikido point of view it makes it possible to maintain good shisei.

The next move is to step forward with the left leg under Toris exended arm. Once again Happo Geri footwork is employed. Tori is effectively stepping away from uke at a right angle. Tori then pivots to face uke. I have seen a backfist delivered at this point with the held hand which may not be necessary with this exercise as it can disturb uke and affect the fluidity but it does highlight the correct angle and on occasions can help. At this point Toris right leg is nearest uke and Toris right arm is extended along Toris centre line.

From this position Tori drops his right arm, also bending at the knees which breaks ukes posture. As ukes arm reaches waist height tori steps back with his right foot turning away from uke which sweps uke down then draws him on to Tori.

Ukes head will come into contact with Toris hip. Tori faces away from uke with feet also turned away to protect the groin. Toris free left hand can press down on ukes head while the right uses haysabachi to roll around ukes wrist and Tori is now holding uke. A reversal of roles.

At this point Toris left hand is pushing down on ukes head while the right hand levers ukes arm in a vertical position.

To complete the move Tori turns back to uke pushing down on the head and against the extended arm. At 5th kyu uke is allowed to roll away. At a higher level Tori will step back with the projection to increase the power of the throw.

Fortunately ura is very similar to omote. Where omote starts with an extension of the arm and an immediate atemi plus an outbreath for seniors to consider Ura differs in that Tori turns in exactly the same manner as ura Tai no henka from gyaku hamni combining this with an in breath.

Having completed the turn, effectively simulating evasive receiving motion Tori turns back and starts with omote version. In essence they have practiced tenkan -- irimi.
.
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Old 05-27-2005, 02:59 AM   #182
Ketsan
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
That is pretty much what I was trying to say. I've never had an uke "step back" so I am not sure what you are talking about, but I do know that I've never changed hands or needed a neck reinforcement to produce the technique or needed uke's assistance. Out of curioscity how are you preforming it? It is always useful to know more variations.
Pretty much as Rich explained it, except we try and get some atemi in somewhere, either to the face as were entering in gakyuhamni or an elbow in the solar plexis on the turn before the main cut.
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Old 05-27-2005, 04:35 AM   #183
Nick Simpson
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Dont forget the strike to the back of the head/neck as you cut them down and then the knee in the face as you throw/step through

Sensei Hemmings grabbed me once on a course to illustrate reflexes/gaurd, he put in about 6 atemi before he threw me, scary stuff that.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 05-27-2005, 07:17 AM   #184
Ketsan
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Dont forget the strike to the back of the head/neck as you cut them down and then the knee in the face as you throw/step through

Sensei Hemmings grabbed me once on a course to illustrate reflexes/gaurd, he put in about 6 atemi before he threw me, scary stuff that.
Ah yes knee in the face, the old favorites are the best.
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Old 05-28-2005, 01:40 PM   #185
DustinAcuff
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Re: Defending against Aikido

LOL. No wonder I was confuzed. I have never done kaiten nage from anything but punches. Havent had an uke put an arm down to save himself either....seems like a bad idea to me.

From a standard punch you can do kaiten nage pretty easily one handed, as long as your attacker has foward momentum or you make a very deep entrance. Just irimi, make contact with the attackers arm, cut in a circle (wheel style), during the cut make the 180 degree hip switch, at any point during the last 120 degrees of the cut (arm perpendicular to the floor to pointing just infront of you ) stop the cut and move center foward. We use the neck reinforcement during practice if we are using low energy, but when your uke is a bit overzealous it just seems not to happen.

The explination does not really do the technique justice, but it makes a very smooth, rapid throw as long as you keep the energy/uke going the same direction without interruption. A word of warning, the higher you release the more air uke gets.
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