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Old 04-19-2005, 10:50 AM   #51
CNYMike
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Ruth McWilliam wrote:
In the UK, to say something is pants means you think it's total rubbish (garbage). So, bad then

Ruth
Thanks.
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Old 04-19-2005, 12:58 PM   #52
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Defending against Aikido

IMHO it is nearly impossible to "do" a aikido like technique on a totally non-cooperative uke IF he/she knows what nage's technique will be. There is a reason we practice aikido the way we do in the dojo, that is, it develop correct technique and understand the principles. Therefore, it is necessary for uke to work with nage in a cooperative effort for both to train. That does not mean that uke "gives" nage the technique, but walks the fine line with good balance and posture and is able to reverse if nage screws it up.

My sensei always told me that if uke doesn't want you to do the technique, you can't. Normally you would abort that technique and roll to something else looking for the gap or mistake that uke creates. However, that is a different exercise.

I think you have to be very careful when you start playing around with real and 100% non cooperative uke. You must decide on your endstate for that training session (outcome) otherwise it dilutes to a pointless free-for-all with no learning taking place.

I have found it to be good to pratice this way, It allows you to experiment, but I don't really think you are "doing aikido" any longer, it really becomes MMA. I have found it necessary to have competent teachers in this area overwatching because the dynamic changes so much and you will do dumb things that will develop into bad habits if you are not careful. That or you will simply be "rastling" with no growth occuring.

Certainly the principles of aikido are relevant in this type of training, but unless you are very, very, very good at aikido, and I have not seen anyone that is yet. (not saying they are not outthere). You are not going to be "doing aikido" with a non-cooperative uke.
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Old 04-19-2005, 04:33 PM   #53
Ketsan
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
why would I care if someone bends their arm or not ? you don't need them to bend their arm to do an effective ikkyo.



then you haven't trained properly and really don't what you are talking about.



or you haven't trained long enough to have the skill to deal with an uncooperative uke

There is no such thing as an anti-uke for a properly trained nage.
With a straight arm you don't get the leverage you need to perform ikkyo because the arm is basically used as a crank shaft or an allen key to force the body down. Other wise you end up trying make uke bend over by pushing their elbow away and pulling their wrist, which to be fair is pushing them forward more (actually it forces them to rotate around the elbow) than down and you can't push down with a locked arm that's stretched out in front of you on their elbow to stop them reversing it.
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Old 04-19-2005, 05:04 PM   #54
Ian Upstone
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Alex, I'm not sure I understand your description/reasoning, so apologies if I'm way off, not to mention wobbling horribly off topic here...

If you are exploring some of the mechanics of ikkyo/ikkajo whereby uke stands with his arm locked straight, and challenges nage to do ikkyo (and ONLY ikkyo rather than an easier alternative to a straight arm i.e. applying hijishime!) - all nage needs to do is treat ukes straight arm like a jo, rotating it and turning it over as they lead out of ukes circle.

Hard to explain, and maybe like I've said, I may be misunderstanding, but it's a way of applying this technique that might be worth looking at.

Cheers

Ian

Last edited by Ian Upstone : 04-19-2005 at 05:05 PM. Reason: spelling...
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Old 04-19-2005, 05:27 PM   #55
maikerus
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Alex,

I tend to agree with Ian in that it doesn't matter if the arm is straight or bent at 90 degrees. In both cases - even if the arm is "straight" - it is a little bent just because of the way the elbow works. In both cases you can control the shoulder by rolling the elbow and pushing slightly into the shoulder as you do so.

The only exception would be these people who's elbows hyperextend naturally and, well, do something else then.

Just a thought,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:00 PM   #56
CNYMike
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
With a straight arm you don't get the leverage you need to perform ikkyo because the arm is basically used as a crank shaft or an allen key to force the body down. Other wise you end up trying make uke bend over by pushing their elbow away and pulling their wrist, which to be fair is pushing them forward more (actually it forces them to rotate around the elbow) than down and you can't push down with a locked arm that's stretched out in front of you on their elbow to stop them reversing it.
Well, I agree with the idea of the elbow being slightly bent. Most of the time, It's not a straight arm bar but what the Filipinos would call a branch down joint lock; it's just that the arm has stretched out. But you should still get that action of rolling the elbow forward to get what you want. But I can't remember a time when being uke for shomenuchi ikkyo and thinking, "Oh, now I have to bend my arm or I won't be able to fake ikkyo for my partner." Never. If anything, the bending is done by nage, not by me. Yes, I still have to "take ukemi" correctly, but that's more to ease the pain and prevent my knees from smashing into the mat than "faking" it.

As to pushing the elbow and pulling the wrist, well, some techniques do lock out the elbow like that, but that's not ikkyo *most of the time.* Has it occured to you that maybe your ikkyo just needs a lot of work? Because if you're having trouble, it could be just that you're not getting something right, as opposed to your uke just being bad. I learned a rule of thumb with Kali's grappling system: If I'm having trouble, it means I'm doing something wrong. And it applies to Aikido quite well, too.
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Old 04-20-2005, 01:04 AM   #57
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
With a straight arm you don't get the leverage you need to perform ikkyo because the arm is basically used as a crank shaft or an allen key to force the body down. Other wise you end up trying make uke bend over by pushing their elbow away and pulling their wrist, which to be fair is pushing them forward more (actually it forces them to rotate around the elbow) than down and you can't push down with a locked arm that's stretched out in front of you on their elbow to stop them reversing it.

Alex,

From your post, I believe you are too involve with the form rather than the essence of the techniques. Try this... when you do ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo whatever kyo, remember your hands and the twist is to maintain a connection only, what we should be attacking is their balance e.g., their knees. Think about it for a little while.

So if it is ikkyo, you've got him in the ikkyo position, move uke against their balanced position. If uke is being difficult, you can either pivot and do the tenkan version, if uke is anticipating a tenkan movement, move irimi. It is that simple, no one person can be strong in two places at one time (human only have one brain).

Ask your sensei or senior to explain it further, I believe you may be missing something there. A well executed technique should not leave holes to be exploited by the uke. And if he does, then the tori should be thankful he's got an honest uke.

Happy training,
Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 04-20-2005, 02:06 AM   #58
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
With a straight arm you don't get the leverage you need to perform ikkyo because the arm is basically used as a crank shaft or an allen key to force the body down. Other wise you end up trying make uke bend over by pushing their elbow away and pulling their wrist, which to be fair is pushing them forward more (actually it forces them to rotate around the elbow) than down and you can't push down with a locked arm that's stretched out in front of you on their elbow to stop them reversing it.
Craig, Ian and Michael all beat me to it, bent or straight elbow is not important. Practicing techniques is about learning and studying the principles within the technique, if you are struggling at this point, you are trying too hard to do the technique which means that you are causing the conflict, excactly what we are trying to avoid in Aikido. Remember, in a randori (I use this instead of saying "real life situation) I'm not trying to do a basic ikkyo every time, I just keep moving with uke until he is off balance and let him fall into a technique relative to our interaction.

Learning the principles within a technique does require a cooperative uke, this is how we learn to feel what's going on in the technique but that doesn't mean giving the technique away. In Aikido practice we work together to learn the form, one way today, slightly different next week, differnt again the following week and so on, so that when it comes to the randori, we are pliable and able to adapt our movement in order to guide uke's movement. I may start with an ikkyo motion, but if I feel resistance, I may change that to something else, which may look nothing like a dojo technique, but will contain all of the principles of a dojo technique. The important point being that I am flexible, pliable and adaptable. It's difficult to achhieve this without cooperative partners in the early years.

As someone else mentioned above, the level of your training partners will certainly influence the way you practice, you shouldn't worry about this too much right now. After 2 years of practice there is still plenty to learn and a lot of practice to do. This doesn't change whether you have been practicing for 10 years, 20 years or more.

rgds

Bryan

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Old 04-20-2005, 03:34 AM   #59
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Re: Defending against Aikido

There's a form of randori in Shodokan Aikido called toshu randori - both participants are unarmed. Attacking and defending you are limited to the techniques found in the junanahon and their variations. You can initiate, react or counter. Quite an eye opener watching two people who know what they are doing.

As far as Ikkyo is concerned I might be committing heresy here but the technique is primarily a tegatana attack on the elbow causing a kuzushi. If you are able to gain control of the arm below the elbow, preferably closer to the wrist you continue with either omote or ura versions. If you can't you need to switch to something else. I think it is irrelevant whether the arm is bent or not.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-20-2005, 08:01 AM   #60
Randathamane
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Hello- still rather new to aikido, but i know a little. I thought i would bounce this off you if that is okay.

After practicing the whole rotating the elbow as mentioned before, yes it works, very well in fact, but i feel that the whole trial and error, lacks the sense of urgency that may be present in a possible unwanted confrontation.

I have a golden rule:- If it take more than 4 seconds then you are in danger. Alot of you will object to this, but my logic would be that this is the shock period.
Shock period being that your attacker has not realized what you are doing- after 3 seconds he will start to fight back with a berserker style, kicking, screaming, biting, flailing and generally trying to cause trouble.

If he as 3 or 4 bigger and uglier mates around the corner that will run to his aid- i do not want to stick around. You must put the attacker (Uke) to the ground quickly and effortlessly. if 3 others charge you at once, they will not wit for you to finish your throw- they will jump you at once if possible. of course speed is not important- correctness is, but at times i feel speed may be needed.

This is just my opinion- i could be wrong, but this is how we train. Ultimately, what do i know?- i am after all only a 3rd Kyu and wouldn't preach my meager knowledge to others. let me know what you lot think.....

Of course the best option is to walk away and not get involved- this is always the best and i hope none of you ever have to use what you have learned.

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Old 04-20-2005, 08:58 AM   #61
Ian Upstone
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Re: Defending against Aikido

4 seconds? It would have to be instantaneous, in my book!

The manipulation of ukes arm as descibed in earlier posts was intended as a learning/exploring experience on the mat, perhaps with an uncooperative uke (who knows what is coming) for the sake of learning how ikkyo/ikkajo works. It was suggested because an ealier poster doubted that ikkyo could be performed on a straight arm.

The "trial and error method" is a *learning* tool for the dojo. Exploring the mechanics of a technique with a partner doesn't have a 'sense of urgency' - but why should it? Trial and error isn't what anyone should be doing when their life may depend on it.

Techniques need to be ingrained so that they (or more precisely the movements including their principles) can be instantly applied without conscious thought. If you have to rationally think about what you need to do to perform X technique, it will probably be a failure as the intended recipient is likely to just shrug off an attempt to bend their arm...

Ian
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Old 04-20-2005, 10:21 AM   #62
CNYMike
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Richard Player wrote:
Hello- still rather new to aikido, but i know a little. I thought i would bounce this off you if that is okay.

After practicing the whole rotating the elbow as mentioned before, yes it works, very well in fact, but i feel that the whole trial and error, lacks the sense of urgency that may be present in a possible unwanted confrontation.

I have a golden rule:- If it take more than 4 seconds then you are in danger. Alot of you will object to this, but my logic would be that this is the shock period.
Shock period being that your attacker has not realized what you are doing- after 3 seconds he will start to fight back with a berserker style, kicking, screaming, biting, flailing and generally trying to cause trouble.

If he as 3 or 4 bigger and uglier mates around the corner that will run to his aid- i do not want to stick around. You must put the attacker (Uke) to the ground quickly and effortlessly. if 3 others charge you at once, they will not wit for you to finish your throw- they will jump you at once if possible. of course speed is not important- correctness is, but at times i feel speed may be needed.

This is just my opinion- i could be wrong, but this is how we train. Ultimately, what do i know?- i am after all only a 3rd Kyu and wouldn't preach my meager knowledge to others. let me know what you lot think.....

Of course the best option is to walk away and not get involved- this is always the best and i hope none of you ever have to use what you have learned.

You have a good point, but the trade-off is you don't really work on learning the technique, and to a certain extant you are compromising your training safety. Like I said in a previous post, none of this stuff is easy and the devil is in the details. Slowing down, taking your time, that helps you learn and internalize things and then you can pick up the pace. Seeing what you can snag in three or four secons is another issue.

Joint locks and throws are a different game from punching and kicking and must be learned differently. Last night in Kali, my instructor devoted 45 minutes to having everyone practice different joint locks from a basic side hold down position. Is that the way you'd fight? No. But that is they way you learn what you will use later. Rolling around and trying to get something off someone who's resisting comes later.

Aikido faces the same learning curve because it is all joint locks and throws. Yes, in a real situation you don't have a lot of time to mess around, but as for LEARNING what to use in that situation, slow down, learn it, then pick up the pace later.

But then what do I know? I'm still new and haven't even taken the newbie test yet, though I have been around the block a time or three.
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Old 04-20-2005, 02:06 PM   #63
Ketsan
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Upon further thought ok it is possible I'll concede that assuming you mean the way that I think you do. The reason I didn't think of that earlier is because we've only done it something like twice in our dojo and I've always thought of it as being purely something found in Ju-jitsu, if it's the way I'm thinking of through number four suburi. If not for dad demonstrating it last night I'd probably not have thought of it, although his is the Ju-jitsu way. Irime or tenkan though I'm sticking to my guns. You cannot push someone down when you're at arms length from them, which you have to be to lock your arm on their elbow to prevent the reversal.

Grab a newbie fresh from the street tell them nothing but to stand still and do ikkyo on them.

Mind you I conceed that I might have spent two years training 3 and very occasionally 4 nights a week, 3 hours a night graded up to 3rd kyu and learned nothing which actually works, which since I'm learning the same Aikido as they do at So Hombu and visiting Shihans are very happy with us, worries me. But we've wandered from the topic which is about defending against Aikido.
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Old 04-20-2005, 02:51 PM   #64
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Will Aikido really work?

Is a question I've asked myself many times. And the answer is, yes, it will. The second questions one should ask is MY AIKIDO will work?, well that depends on your level of training and your opponent(s)' level.

It's very common to read a question about a specific attack, or a specific technique taught in a aikido dojo at think how this would work against such or such attack.
well, thinking of the aikido techniques you train every class just as a series of standard responses to specific attacks is very limited. The way aikido is trained isn't exactly to develop a range of techniques for every possible situation imaginable, that would limit training to your imagination, what would aikido do in situations you can't imagine? Aikido techniques are trained to learn principles of body mechanics and structure, angles, timing, relationship between centers, etc, which are principles one can apply to any situation, yes the one you imagine, and the ones you don't.
Once you master this principles and apply them properly, anything you do is aikido. Sometimes what you do will be recognized as a technique you practice in class, sometimes will be something that just arose in the moment, not a "recognizable technique" per se.
But if it follows the principle, yes it's aikido.
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Old 04-20-2005, 07:17 PM   #65
Ketsan
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Re: Defending against Aikido

I think a better question is "Are the principles valid?" I find that Ju is so similar to but in a lot of ways far more refined than Aiki. The difference I find is in how each principle treats conflict. Aiki assumes control where Ju surrenders. Ju is about the reality of two energies meeting, there's a naturalness and an inevitability about it that Aiki just doesn't have. Aiki changes and pollutes the attackers energy, instead of just accepting it.
If Aiki were a willow tree it would seek to change the winds direction.
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Old 04-20-2005, 09:38 PM   #66
maikerus
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Alex...how long have you trained? in the various martial arts that you do?

Just curious,

--Michael

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Old 04-21-2005, 12:07 AM   #67
CNYMike
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
..... Irime or tenkan though I'm sticking to my guns. You cannot push someone down when you're at arms length from them, which you have to be to lock your arm on their elbow to prevent the reversal.
Huh? Irimi nage doesn't take you out to arm's length! Your arms may be fully extended, but you are pretty much body-to-body with the your uke. There's one variation where you plaster uke's head to your shoulder.

Likewise, a 180 degree tenkan off katate dori puts you side-by-side with uke. Your arms may be extended again, but your body is -- or should be -- right next to his.

Although aikido's ma-ai is at what could be called boxing or kickboxing range, the execution of the techniques takes you in closer than that. Sometimes not totally body-to-body, as in some versions of nikkyo, but MOST OF THE TIME you are inside arm's length. So if you've been trying to apply your techniques without getting closer than arm's length, no wonder you're having problems! I've been trying to envision what you are talking about, and there's no other way to explain it than that, based on your description, you are too far away from your uke sometimes.

Quote:
Grab a newbie fresh from the street tell them nothing but to stand still and do ikkyo on them.
Tonight we went over gokyo. My partner -- whom I must outweighed by at least 60 pounds -- had no problem moving me around, especially once she had her hips oriented correctly. I didn't think, "Oh, I have to go now or she'll be embarrassed." I was most definitely pulled along.

I can sit here stiff, sore, and achey from tonight's class, and as God is my witness, tell you with no reservation that I did not fake any falls for my partners tonight. The time I didn't fall over, when a training partner unexepctedly pulled a kotegaeshi on me, I felt enough pain in the tendons in the back of my right arm to make me understand why I should have. When a technique was apllied to me, it was done TO me by another person; I did not do anything to myself. Yes, I had to consiously remember how to take ukemi. But you kind of have to remember that when someone's elbow is on course for your trachea.

Quote:
Mind you I conceed that I might have spent two years training 3 and very occasionally 4 nights a week, 3 hours a night graded up to 3rd kyu and learned nothing which actually works, which since I'm learning the same Aikido as they do at So Hombu and visiting Shihans are very happy with us, worries me ....
Well, you keep describing techniques and scenarios I have not experienced at all, so something could have gone wrong. I've been on the receiving end of dozens of ikkyos, and not once did I think, "Now, I must remember to bend my arm or my partner will not get ikkyo." I've had it bent a whole bunch of times, though. And not properly going with it has led to me experiencing more pain as I go down, not a flustered nage wondering why it didn't work. So if after all this time you think the only reason uke falls is because uke falls and nage has nothing to do with, maybe you learned something that didn't work. Or maybe you've got some things wrong. 'Cause I've been moved around by nages often enough to know there's more than going on than me saying, "Ok, time to fall now."
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Old 04-21-2005, 01:26 AM   #68
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Although aikido's ma-ai is at what could be called boxing or kickboxing range, the execution of the techniques takes you in closer than that. Sometimes not totally body-to-body, as in some versions of nikkyo, but MOST OF THE TIME you are inside arm's length. So if you've been trying to apply your techniques without getting closer than arm's length, no wonder you're having problems!
Ma ai (i'm translating as correct distance) is a key factor here, and it is something that changes throughout the technique. The starting ma ai may be at a distance (arms length or greater), but mai ai is dynamic, it changes right through to the end, you may be touching hip to hip at some point within your movement, this is still ma ai for that point in doing the action. You don't stay at arms length throughout the technique.


Quote:
Alex wrote:
You cannot push someone down when you're at arms length from them, which you have to be to lock your arm on their elbow to prevent the reversal.
I wouldn't lock my arms on anyones elbow, that just makes for too much tension and an opening for someone stronger than me to use.

Quote:
Alex wrote:
Grab a newbie fresh from the street tell them nothing but to stand still and do ikkyo on them.
When I opened my own dojo last June, all of my students were first timer newbies, including a very large (nearly 7ft tall) Russian. My techniques had to work if I wanted to get the club off the ground. I'm still open with 14 regular students .

rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:03 AM   #69
Ketsan
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Huh? Irimi nage doesn't take you out to arm's length!
Ok umm, pretend I said Ikkyo Omote or Ura. I was trying to convey that there's a difference between the way you take uke when you use number four suburi as opposed to entering in.

Ok so the way we do things uke bends their arm to recieve the technique and we keep a straight arm locked on their elbow to stop them reversing the technique and doing ikkyo on us. We even have an excersise where we do just that, tori does ikkyo about half way and then uke becomes tori and reverses it and you end up going backwards and forward ad nausium.

How long have I been training? Started off in Ju-jitsu for about 18 months- 2 years, the dojo closed so I did TKD for about six months before I joined this other place that did TKD but also taught Ju-jitsu and I was there for about 3 years then I went on to do Lao Gar style Kung Fu and kickboxing for about a year. The club then folded and the teacher suggested I go see my present Sensei as he had just started an Aikido club and that was two years ago in January.
Before all that my dad, brother and basically entire dad's side of the family started teaching me Ju-jitsu when I was small, so I suppose if you want to include that, it must be coming up for about 15-20 years now on an informal basis.
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Old 04-21-2005, 10:09 AM   #70
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
I think a better question is "Are the principles valid?" I find that Ju is so similar to but in a lot of ways far more refined than Aiki. The difference I find is in how each principle treats conflict. Aiki assumes control where Ju surrenders. Ju is about the reality of two energies meeting, there's a naturalness and an inevitability about it that Aiki just doesn't have. Aiki changes and pollutes the attackers energy, instead of just accepting it.
If Aiki were a willow tree it would seek to change the winds direction.


Alex Lawrence, you're 100% percent right, that's an excellent question, Are aikido principles valid? (and this should be asked for every MA). well, they are, and the only way to prove those principles are valid is experimenting them, so you can feel how angles, body alignment, extension, balance, etc, work, and how they affect the "opponent".
And I'm not talking about an ethereal energy, or magical power, in which I don't believe. Aikido uses principles of body structure and body mechanics to achieve control, redirecting the attack, moving your body to a position of structural advantage, so you gain control of the situation.
Is this magic, NO, it's physics.
Now, is this unique to aiki, absolutely not, every MA is based on body mechanics and body structure, because we all have 2 arms, two legs, one head...,
is this the best way?, better than other martial arts? no, it's not the best, there is no best. it's just a different approach to self defense.

you were wrong in saying aikido isn't about the reality and inevitability of two energies meeting. But actually is just about that, and how an aikidoist would redirect this energy, so he/she is not "hurt" and takes control of the situation, through body mechanics.

About quote: "If Aiki were a willow tree it would seek to change the winds direction".
Well willow trees don't do aikido, people do aikido. and we have two legs to move away of the "wind" to a position were we can redirect it.

PS.: excuse my grammar, English isn't my native language
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Old 04-21-2005, 10:15 AM   #71
CNYMike
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
Ok umm, pretend I said Ikkyo Omote or Ura. I was trying to convey that there's a difference between the way you take uke when you use number four suburi ....
What's number 4 suburi? I don't know what that is. Even then, the footwork associated with ikkyo takes you in closer than when you were when you started. Omote and ura determine where you go, but you don't stay there. Alligning your hips properly makes a big difference, too.

Quote:
..... as opposed to entering in.

Ok so the way we do things uke bends their arm to recieve the technique ....
So let me get this straight: Your sensei has actually TOLD you that uke must bend their arm? Not that nage does something to make the arm bend but has actually instructed you to your face that to be a good uke, uke must bend the arm? Which would be a shock to me beause in two styles of Aikido I never heard anything like that!

Quote:
...... and we keep a straight arm locked on their elbow to stop them reversing the technique and doing ikkyo on us .....
Ok, it's been a while since I did anything with ikkyo but shomenuchi ikkyo, but I am still trying to wrap my brain around the idea that uke has to remember to bend the arm and not get it bent by nage/tori. It just hasn't been my experience that as uke, I have to remind myself to bend my arm as opposed to having it bent for me. That just doesn't jive with what I've been doing.

Quote:
..... We even have an excersise where we do just that, tori does ikkyo about half way and then uke becomes tori and reverses it and you end up going backwards and forward ad nausium.
Yes, I did that drill once. I liked it. But again, when my partner performed ikkyo on me, I did NOT, repeat NOT bend my own arm so he could get it. He seemed to have no trouble getting it without my hel.

Quote:
How long have I been training? Started off in Ju-jitsu for about 18 months- 2 years, the dojo closed so I did TKD for about six months before I joined this other place that did TKD but also taught Ju-jitsu and I was there for about 3 years then I went on to do Lao Gar style Kung Fu and kickboxing for about a year. The club then folded and the teacher suggested I go see my present Sensei as he had just started an Aikido club and that was two years ago in January.
Before all that my dad, brother and basically entire dad's side of the family started teaching me Ju-jitsu when I was small, so I suppose if you want to include that, it must be coming up for about 15-20 years now on an informal basis.
Great! I've also been training for 20 years (I started when I was 20), predominatly shito-ryu karate but I have also done Shotokan, TKD, Western Boxing, European Fencing, another style of Aikido called Seidokan, and Wing Chun; and I am currently doing shito-ryu karate, Aikido, Kali, Pentjak Silat Serak, and Tai Chi. And even then there are plenty of things I get yelled at for in aikido, in many cases mistakes I keep making but that I'm not aware of until someone points them out to me. And there are lots of things I have to work on -- in fact, they were part of my justification for going back.

So this backs up what I said earlier: You are coming into Aikido with a respectable amount of martial arts experience and training with people who have much less if not are just starting out. This is why it feels like they barely have you. It is not Aikido is bad or fake but that they are where you were a very long time ago. Yes, you could muscle your way out of it, but that is because you are an old geezer who's been around working with people who are just barely starting.

I ran into the same thing when I followed my sensei to an Aikido seminar he taught in Cincinnati: Many times I was working with kids who barely had me, and yes, I had to consciously choose to go with them. This is not because Aikido is bad; it is because they are relatively inexperienced, whereas I have been around a lot. It makes a big difference. Seems what I'm saying?

So to try and veer this back toward the topic, since your strategy is based on the idea that Aikido doesn't work without a good uke, well, that may be based on the perception of an experienced person working with new people, and as such, not correct. Meaning your strategy has a fatal flaw.
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Old 04-21-2005, 01:08 PM   #72
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Defending against Aikido

[quote=Alex Lawrence]
"Ok so the way we do things uke bends their arm to recieve the technique and we keep a straight arm locked on their elbow to stop them reversing the technique and doing ikkyo on us. We even have an excersise where we do just that, tori does ikkyo about half way and then uke becomes tori and reverses it and you end up going backwards and forward ad nausium."

Hi there,
I have a few of comments about your ikkyo.
When tori applies ikkyo, shouldn't be concerned about bending uke's arm or keeping it straight, because ikkyo can be applied on an bended or straight-locked elbow. What tori should be concerned about is bracking uke's balance, move to the correct angle, apply extension, etc.
If uke bends or keeps his arm straight depens on how he receives the technique, but in both cases ikkyo could be applied. So what's the difference? The difference is in ukes ability to keep a centered body. If uke keeps his arm stright and elbow locked (important: this will not stop an ikkyo properly done) the fact is that tory needs less extension or movement to brake uke's balance, why because with the elbow lock the force of the extension goes directly to the body. If uke recieves the ikkyo bending the elbow, the movement of the joint gives ukes more flexibility and tori need more extension to affect ukes balance.
But, whether uke bends or not his elbow, shouldn't stop tori from being able to effectively apply ikkyo.
so from tori's point of view, whats the difference if uke bends his arm on if he doesn't?
well, if ukes doesn't bend his arm, tory needs less extension to brake uke's balance, once uke's balance is broken, you don't need to forcefully bend his arm, keep it straight, apply pressure on the locked elbow, and uke will go to the mat, otherwise the elbow is gonna get broken.
If uke bends his arm when tori applies ikkyo, tory needs more extension to brake uke's balance, but at the same time, the bended arm can be use as a lever, pressing the elbow down, and the wrist up. so we finish in a position where uke's facing to the mat, with the elbow pointing down, and the hand at a higher level, this position prevents him from standing up. press the elbow down, and uke goes to the mat.
be careful, if uke's elbow is pointing up and his hand is in a lower level than the elbow, will be very easy for uke to stand up.

i hope i was able to express myself properly and clearly, English isn't my native language.
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Old 04-21-2005, 07:25 PM   #73
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
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Re: Defending against Aikido

I'm not that old you know! I'm only 22 Just that I've been taught practically from the day I could walk or maybe 5 or 6. I don't know, as long as I can remember because messing around with my family invariably ment being taught something. Formal in the dojo training started when I was about 15, so I'll claim no great knowlege.

Uke doesn't *have* to bend their arm but apparently there's a risk of injury if they don't and since it occasionally hurts a bit when Sensei slams ikkyo on and by the way I end up in position to break newbies elbows, I assume that curving the arm is there for just that, injury prevention, bit like the way uke tenkans on shi-ho nage.

Number 4 suburi? It's just changing stance. You're in kamae, lets say right kamae. Bring your left foot so that it's level with your right so that you're standing with your feet together. Now step back with your right foot into kamae. Of course we still do forward/back foot irime and back foot irime tenkan.

I see what you're saying, a more experienced tori might be able to throw me. It would be arrogant of me to flat out deny that it's possible. To my mind it would depend on how the uke's they'd trained with behaved. If they'd spent time training with uke's trying to defeat them and who really fought back, then ok fine, maybe but I don't think training with a co-operative uke will ever really prepare you for anything other than a fight with a co-operative uke.
Train as you fight, fight as you train basically and I don't know anyone that fights like an uke.
This is only half my argument though. The other half is that Aikido often leaves itself open to attack by ignoring anything which doesn't fit into it's world view, kicks especially. It's not like you need to deliver a massive bone cruching round house, you just need to disrupt their technique, you need not even land it, just freak them a bit.
Classic example during two man attack, I dropped the first uke who landed in front of me and between me and the second uke. I kept my guard low because if I was the uke on the floor I would be kicking me in the groin or solar plexis or trying to take my legs.
Sensei tells me to to keep my guard up because of the second uke, even though he was well out of range and obstructed and thus far less of a threat than the uke on the floor placed perfectly to strike.
I also understand that it's about learning principles too but on the street you'll be using the techniques that you're trainned to use albeit with some adaption.
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Old 04-21-2005, 10:42 PM   #74
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
..... Uke doesn't *have* to bend their arm but apparently there's a risk of injury if they don't and since it occasionally hurts a bit when Sensei slams ikkyo on and by the way I end up in position to break newbies elbows, I assume that curving the arm is there for just that, injury prevention, bit like the way uke tenkans on shi-ho nage.
There are a couple of reasons the bend can get there. Two of the three basic positions for joint locking an arm involve having the elbow bent. I think the way we do ikkyo uses one of those positions because you snag the elbow and roll it forwards. The bend is still there, but it's stretched out. Although you see it more blatantly with sankyo and yonkyo.

Quote:
..... I see what you're saying, a more experienced tori might be able to throw me. It would be arrogant of me to flat out deny that it's possible. To my mind it would depend on how the uke's they'd trained with behaved. If they'd spent time training with uke's trying to defeat them and who really fought back, then ok fine, maybe but I don't think training with a co-operative uke will ever really prepare you for anything other than a fight with a co-operative uke.
Since I referring to training situations in the dojo, you had damn well better NOT be fighting back, and you've already noted that your sensei's ikkyos can hurt a bit. If that doesn't verify that more advanced people don't have better technique, then I don't know what does.

Quote:
Train as you fight, fight as you train basically and I don't know anyone that fights like an uke.
In the first place -- and you should know this by now -- Ukemi Waza have two objectives:

1. Safety In other words, this is so Tori can slam uke into the ground without uke actually getting killed. This another one of those "safety" things you alluded to.

2. Learning the technique Apparently, receiving a tenchnique is the best way to learn what it feels like, and what's going on when it's done right. I've begun to appreciate this myself. So, in addition to being a safety measure, it's a learning tool. Did I say learning? Yes, learning.

The prohibition against full blown randori -- trying the technique om someone who's fighting back -- goes all the way back to O Sensei, so it's kind of pointless to whine about it. It's like complaining about losing a chess game beacuse you didn't get a full house. Hello, there is no full house in chess -- that's poker. You want resisitance, you can either cross train in or switch to something that does it, but it's pointless to complain about Aikido not having it. Deal with it.

Quote:
This is only half my argument though. The other half is that Aikido often leaves itself open to attack by ignoring anything which doesn't fit into it's world view, kicks especially. It's not like you need to deliver a massive bone cruching round house, you just need to disrupt their technique, you need not even land it, just freak them a bit.
True, but -- and I pointed out before -- western boxing does not have kicks either. Nor does it deal with it. My Kali instructor has repeatedly praised boxers for being good at what they do, but they do not deal with kicks. Period. See any screeds on the 'net blasting boxing for "ignoring" kicks? Didn't think so.

So the list of things Aikido specializes in doesn't include kicks. Big fat hairy deal.

Quote:
Classic example during two man attack, I dropped the first uke who landed in front of me and between me and the second uke. I kept my guard low because if I was the uke on the floor I would be kicking me in the groin or solar plexis or trying to take my legs.
Sensei tells me to to keep my guard up because of the second uke, even though he was well out of range and obstructed and thus far less of a threat than the uke on the floor placed perfectly to strike.
Next question: Are you getting the most out of your Aikido class if you selectively listen to your sensei? I would bet the asnwer is "no."

Over the past year or so, I have learned that by putting myself in "sponge mode" and just learning what one of my instructors is teaching, I have got more out of that class. When I work out on my own, I do a little bit of everything, but in class I focus on the class I do what I'm told; I get more out of it that way.

It's up to you how you approach your training, of course. But I don't think you're getting the most bang for your buck if you don't just abosrb what your sensei says. You can play around and experiment on your own.

Quote:
I also understand that it's about learning principles too but on the street you'll be using the techniques that you're trainned to use albeit with some adaption.
My kali instructor might agree with you on that. But he's also very big on training principles. Why? Because when you internalize the principles, you GENERATE technqiues. So if you internailzed Aikido's principles, it's conceivable you could generate all sorts of counters to different things, isn't it? You come up with new techniques to train with and put in your bag of tricks ... but you need the principles first.
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Old 04-22-2005, 12:15 AM   #75
xuzen
 
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Dear people,

Was in parctice yesterday and I thought of testing my sensei out a little. (Oops! Sacrilege, I know and I am so ashame ).

We were doing ryote katate mochi tenshin nage (two hand grab heaven and earth throw). So as uke to my sensei, I did not go down but resisted the throw to my maximum ability.

What happened next was a blur but if I'd recall vaguely, sensei's hand went to my lapel, then he jerk/twist me there. That jerk/twisting motion was an example of principle of atemi which was used to distract me and momentarily stun me. When I was stunned, my resistant instantaneously dropped to zero. Then he proceeded to throw me using; I don't know, could be continuation of tenchinage or maybe he changed to iriminage or maybe Tani otoshi (judo type throw). Anyway in the next second, I was on the floor, slightly dazed and with a whiplash on my neck and sensei was already in a ready stance waiting for me to get up to be thrown again. Then whole process maybe lasted only a couple of second from my resistance to me on the floor.

If I wasn't sure about the ukemi, I would not try. But since I tried that, the price I paid was a whip-lashed neck but the lesson learned is the feeling of helplessness I experienced when he threw me. That was priceless. And that was from me who was bent on resisting my sensei from the very start of the technique.

Lesson learned, now nursing a whip-lashed neck and waiting for the next opportunity to learn some more. Sigh! So much to learn, so little time.

Boon.

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