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Old 04-08-2005, 07:57 PM   #26
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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Re: Defending against Aikido

[quote=James Matarrese] An Aikidoka wouldn't be attacking with aikido because most of the stuff is with your uke initinating the attack. [quote]

Hi James,

I think you mentioned on another thread that you train with Pat Hendricks. Does she really teach that uke initiates the attack? My understanding of Saito Sensei is that nage initiates.

Charles
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:34 PM   #27
xuzen
 
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?
Dear Andy,

Strictly from a technical point of view... all aikido technique can be countered. We call it Kaeshi waza. Whether you can pull it off depends on how pliable your body and mind are, how weak your attacker is.

Boon.

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Old 04-09-2005, 11:52 PM   #28
Murgen
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:

I someone were attacking me, and I began to use my technique with their energy, and for some odd reason I was off a bit or too slow, could they wiggle out of the hold or throw and hurt me?
My Sensei taught me a counter to kotogaeishi that does work pretty well and allows you to put a counter kotogaeishi on the nage. Yes, it's takes timing so it might not work 100% of the time. I remember he mentioned there was a counter to everything!!?? So yes, if your off, or slow, they could get out and counter attack. My Sensei has shown me several times how I was vulnerable during a technique to a counter, kick, punch, knee, elbow , headbutt etc... which could possibly put me down and out if done with full power. But, if the technique is done perfectly, I think it would be pretty hard for the Uke to "slip out"

Last edited by Murgen : 04-09-2005 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 04-10-2005, 12:58 AM   #29
CNYMike
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?
Well part of Aikido training is countering a reversing a technique being executed on you with another technique, and there are plenty of things non-Aikido martial artists can do to make an Aikido person's life miserable, so the answer is "Yeah." But being attaked on the street by a rogue Yodansha is pretty unlikely; if it happens, buy a lottery ticket.
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Old 04-10-2005, 02:01 AM   #30
Kevin Temple
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Re: Defending against Aikido

I don't understand what is so hard to believe about being attacked by aikido. Assuming that every person who studies aikido is a peaceful person is a big assumption, and I'm sure there are some Cobra-Kai aikidoka out there somewhere just waiting for their chance to strike. Just because Aikido can be a peaceful martial art, doesn't mean all aikido folk are peaceful. And in my dojo we do learn some attacks that shite initiates, mainly with shite starting off the technique by moving in for a shomen uchi. I'm sure some sort of evil or possibly just really drunk aikidoka could go about attacking you. With regard to defending against aikido, to be honest i'd say many of the reversal and escapes require a much better understanding of the techniques then i have now. I'm sure in 10 or 20 years i'll be able to give you a better answer
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Old 04-10-2005, 02:43 AM   #31
batemanb
 
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Dear Andy,

Strictly from a technical point of view... all aikido technique can be countered. We call it Kaeshi waza.

Hi Boon,

Like I posted before, only if the Aikido technique is done poorly and allows for openings. If it's done correctly, kuzushi applied and ma ai maintained, it is very difficult to counter.

But that's why we practice .

rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 04-11-2005, 12:52 AM   #32
CNYMike
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Temple wrote:
I don't understand what is so hard to believe about being attacked by aikido .....
IMO, it's statisitically unlikely. You're in Canada, right? Ok, there are 30 million people in Canada. What percentage of them know anything about Aikido? Given that the best guestimate is that there are 1.5 million Aikido pracitioners worldwide, they're probably spread pretty thin in Canada's metro areas. Same probably applies "south of the border." There are ~250 million Americans, but not a lot of Aikido people. In fact, my home town of Cortland, NY doesn't have any Aikido dojos -- I have to drive to Ithaca to train! Sure there are plenty of people who "did it years ago," but if they don't maintane what skill they had, they use it. Again, no threat.

So you probably don't have to worry about it because Aikido people are just too damn few and far between to make it worth worrying about.
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Old 04-11-2005, 05:56 AM   #33
Dazzler
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
James Matarrese wrote:
You talk about good compliments to Aikido, but i rarely see anyone talk of sword arts as good compliments. Why? I think kendo is a great compliment to Aikido as well as tameshigiri. It helps concentration as well as awareness of self, which my sensei stresses constantly. As for the what if lines, I don't like them. The entire thing is like alternate universes. If he did this you could do this or this, or maybe even that...It's just to complicated to predict all possible human reactions to a situation.
Why not talk of sword arts? Personally I believe they can be unhelpful because in Aikido we practice aiki ken and aiki jo. The ken are just teaching aids and we are not using them to fight with per se.

On this basis I feel sword work could confuse rather than complement.

Kendo in particular has a fixed stance that differs from aikido plus intense focus on a single opponent so for me I do not see it as complementary.

Others may see it differently. Hopefully we shall see some posts to explain why. One of the great things about aikido is the way different people use it in different ways to practice.

Hopefully I've covered my personal reasons for what I see as complementary...readers can agree or disagree. Its a free forum!

As for the what if lines...I dont like them either so I dont see what you are getting at.

D

Last edited by Dazzler : 04-11-2005 at 06:04 AM.
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Old 04-15-2005, 05:38 PM   #34
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Defending against Aikido

ikebana can be complimentary to aikido too, but what does that have to do with reality and a fight?

I personally would not confuse practicing aikido techniques which are designed to teach you principles with what happens in a real fight against a skilled opponent. Too many variables and too many errors made in the heat of battle. Certainly principles are there, and some techniques, but to come up with a 100% dojo solution of perfect technique is not gonna happen.
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Old 04-16-2005, 12:44 PM   #35
Ketsan
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Re: Defending against Aikido

I approach all my training with two thoughs: 1. How would any normal untrained person deal with my technique (usually by resisting).
2. I'm in a bar, I get into an argument, he thows a punch, I block it, counter with another punch then I find him going for a technique. I now have a second at most to deal with it.

Most of the time my solution is either don't leave your limbs dangling about in mid air to be taken after you've punched or kicked or simply do the exact opposite of what uke would do. Drop your stance, let him do whatever he likes with your upper body as long as your feet are rooted to the spot. If you're off balance, step to where you're on balance.
If he takes your hand, pull your elbow in or move your body to your elbow. If he goes for irmi nage, start throwing elbows about and flailing your arms and doing the funky chicken, or go for the hip throw or leg lift.
Kicks are brilliant too. As soon as he takes for shi-ho nage wait for him to cut up and then go for the ribs or solar plexis with a round house kick or knee. Ikkyo, drop your posture and stand your ground, fight it all the way then give him a good kick to the solar plexis or the balls or knee or ribs or thigh (inside and out), ankles, face, throat, you get the picture.

A lot of the time simply by dropping your posture you can make it a strength on strength fight which will buy enough time to punch, throw or kick, especially since Aikido generally ties up both hands while performing a technique, the result being that you end up without an effective guard. There's no reason you should at any stage be off balance or at least not in a position where you can't simply step back on balance. Even with irimi nage ura, where you're pulled back, if you lift your legs simple physics dictates that you will accelerate towards the floor, with tori hanging on to you.

Taking an outsiders view:
Look at how an Aikidoka trains. They have an uke that goes with their technique and quite happily gives them their hand to be thrown with, so they're trained to deal with people that go with the technique. They rarely train for kicks, so a kick will cause them problems, especially if they're properly covered with punches. Also they're trained to deal with one big telegraphed punch, not a hail of little ones in a sustained attack from a stable posture i.e not stepping through.
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Old 04-16-2005, 08:48 PM   #36
xuzen
 
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
I approach all my training with two thoughts: 1. How would any normal untrained person deal with my technique (usually by resisting).
2. I'm in a bar, I get into an argument, he throws a punch, I block it, counter with another punch then I find him going for a technique. I now have a second at most to deal with it..
Same thoughts here. Let's go grab a sake and sashimi and we'll talk some more

Quote:
If he takes your hand, pull your elbow in or move your body to your elbow..
Tried that once with an untrained person and like you said, his natural reaction (absolutely predictable) was to pull his elbow in and went for the guard position, which I immediately executed the irimi-zuki/shomenate technique, it worked on that particular occasion.

Quote:
A lot of the time simply by dropping your posture you can make it a strength on strength fight which will buy enough time to punch, throw or kick, especially since Aikido generally ties up both hands while performing a technique, the result being that you end up without an effective guard.
Is biting allowed, Alex? It is as good atemi as any IMO. Dropping your posture and being rooted is a good tactic to prevent being thrown, but don't forget for a good aikido or judo technique to be effective, kuzushi has to be properly set up first. So IMO, if the uke has the chance to be rooted, then kuzushi hasn't been effectively applied.

Quote:
There's no reason you should at any stage be off balance or at least not in a position where you can't simply step back on balance
.
Principle of Judo states that there are two ways to throw someone. One by applying force to effect a throw, the second is to lead the person far away form his centre of gravity and then prevent him from regaining his balance to effect a throw (aka as leg tripping e.g. Kosoto-Gari), which is effectively preventing the uke from "simply stepping back to balance"

Quote:
Even with irimi nage ura, where you're pulled back, if you lift your legs simple physics dictates that you will accelerate towards the floor, with tori hanging on to you.
Sounds like a set up for sutemi techniques...e.g. Uki-Waza in Judo syllabus.

Quote:
Taking an outsiders view:
Look at how an Aikidoka trains. They have an uke that goes with their technique and quite happily gives them their hand to be thrown with, so they're trained to deal with people that go with the technique. They rarely train for kicks, so a kick will cause them problems, especially if they're properly covered with punches. Also they're trained to deal with one big telegraphed punch, not a hail of little ones in a sustained attack from a stable posture i.e not stepping through
Ah Alex, you are talking about the AikiFruities(TM)... they are doing it for fitness only, so wrong group to make an example of.

Boon.

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Old 04-16-2005, 10:40 PM   #37
Ketsan
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Sake and Sashimi sounds good to me.

Umm AikiFruities? Maybe in which case someone has some serious hardcore training methods . Never seen a jab or a kick in our dojo. So I'll apologise now incase there's people in dojo's training to deal with jabs and kicks etc.

Biting is perfectly fine .

I freely admit here that my experiences with "broken balance" may only apply to me but: If I find myself off balance I tend to dump all my weight on one foot and then put the other one somewhere where I can stand on balance.
I find a lot of the time though that most people realise they're off balance but freeze up and make no attempt to regain their balance. So yes Kuzushi has to be set up properly first but IMO balance isn't something that once broken can't be regained. Judo and Ju-jitsu I see as being a bit different because usually the throw comes pretty much as soon as the kuzushi also Ju-jitsu and Judo have nice reaps and stuff to stop you getting back on balance, where as Aikido the throw is often a reletively long time after the balance is supposedly broken. This I find is because in Aikido there's a lot of trying to move the body with the arm but the thing is the arm can move all over the place without affecting the body, so uke has a reletively long time to react between their arm being moved and their balance being attacked at which point your two hands will be tied up dealing with throwing them and their one hand and two legs are free to attack.

Also the definition of "off balance" is well, weird, at least in my dojo.
Standing on your toes is off balance, having one foot off the floor is off balance, distorted posture is off balance. The fact that you can let go of the uke and they will continue to stand up in that "off balance" position seems to have no bearing on wheather they are on balance or not. I mean to me if you're off balance, you fall over. Then again if you fall over in the middle of the technique there is no technique, which is another of my ways of getting out of trouble, drop onto your knees and punch them in the balls.
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Old 04-17-2005, 10:17 PM   #38
CNYMike
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
.... Taking an outsiders view:
I was away from Aikido for sixteen years while training in other arts, and am now doing Aikido, karate, Tai Chi, Kali, and Pentjak Silat Serak. So I've got both persepctives.

Quote:
.... Look at how an Aikidoka trains. They have an uke that goes with their technique and quite happily gives them their hand to be thrown with, so they're trained to deal with people that go with the technique .....
That's a valid criticism. However, the martial arts are rife with training methodologies and drills where partners work together so that either one or both can learn something. People in boxing and kickboxing systems will be familiar with focus mit/pad training. Pracitioners of Chinese arts know all about chi sao and pushing/sticky hands training, designed to impart the touch sensitivity required when you get closer to your opponent than arms lenght. And Kali .... Oh, my god, Kali is LOADED with flow drills: sombrada, sinawali, hompok higto hubud lubud .... and so on. It's the major teaching methodology of the Filipino martial arts.

So Aikido training is "cooperative" because it trying to teach you something O Sensei wanted you to know. What is that something? Call me back in 40 years. Is it bad that most Aikido people don't do much else? I don't know, and god knows there's enough anecdotal evidence to support both sides of the argument. But that's how I look at it these days.

Quote:
They rarely train for kicks ....
Neither do people in Western boxing, AFAIK. They are very good at what they do, but there are some things they don't do. That Aikido focuses on some areas and doesn't really look at others doesn't bother me, because many other arts are like that in that respect.

Quote:
..... so a kick will cause them problems, especially if they're properly covered with punches. Also they're trained to deal with one big telegraphed punch, not a hail of little ones in a sustained attack from a stable posture i.e not stepping through.
Quite possibly, but then again, what are the odds an Aikido person will get in a fight with an experienced martial artist who has done his homework on Aikido and given thought to the strategies and tactics required to make an Aikidoka's life miserable?

Probably not very good.

Back in the '80s, I saw news footage of a brawl at a hockey game, and two hockey players had grabbed each other's jerseys with their right hands and were pummeling each other with the other hand. Many Aikido techniques then are looking at that grab-and-strike sort of attack from someone who is out to clock you but may or may not have trained. The grabs are trained against first to learn the basics and keep things simple (although one could argue that the timing is really advanced because then you're looking at nullifying the attack in the earliest possible instant, not the easiest thing to do in reality I imagine), but that's the idea. A trained person who's thought about what they're going to do and methodically employs their ideas might cause headaches, but that's an almost ludicrous "What if?" Most likely, the two martial artists would have a beer and talk shop.
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Old 04-18-2005, 12:42 AM   #39
Hardware
 
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
ikebana can be complimentary to aikido too...
Yeah, you could really show those...flowers...
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Old 04-18-2005, 08:14 AM   #40
Ketsan
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Oh I agree that it's unlikely that someone will train to defeat Aikido but if you're trained to do say TKD, then given the opertunity you will do TKD and Aikido, not being designed to cope with kicks that are properly covered with punches or that are delivered when the Aikidoka is performing a technique will buckle. But as I say the best defence against Aikido is to be an "anti-uke". I think we've all had experiences with newbies that don't know to bend their arm for ikkyo for example.

In my opinion our style of co-operative training is unqiue because it does beyond simply holding a kick shield or a focus mit or exercises like pushing hands. In our art is it virtually the entirety of our art, no other invests half it's energy and time in teaching you how to do what the other person wants. So even if you're 8th Dan Shihan if you've never been in a fight you've never thrown anyone that hasn't wanted to be thrown and I tend to find that Aikido techniques only work if I have a good uke. Even if it's designed to impart O-Sensei's wisdom ultimately if you can't perform a technique on an aggressor you probably wont be around long enough to figure out what O-Sensei wanted you to learn.

I've been studying Aikido for just over two years now and I used to be be all "Well you'll break their balance before they could counter" then I realised what I am doing when I take ukemi and came to the realisation that actually I was breaking my own balance and that if I wished I could probably launch a fairly devestating counter attack and tori would walk onto it with their guard all over the place.

Hence I've hit something of a crisis in my own training. I mean there's part of me that thinks I'm talking nonsence, but I don't know. I watch tori performing a technique on me and I see holes that I can exploit and when I'm taking ukemi it just feels like I'm faking it all and that if I got bored half way though the technique I could just walk off. Then when I'm tori I wonder which one of us is actually in control, am I throwing uke or is uke throwing themselves with me dancing around the outside. I mean ok, co-operation but what do you learn if the person you're training with co-operates with you to such an extent that the co-operation is an integral part of the technique?
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Old 04-18-2005, 09:29 AM   #41
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
Hence I've hit something of a crisis in my own training. I mean there's part of me that thinks I'm talking nonsence, but I don't know. I watch tori performing a technique on me and I see holes that I can exploit and when I'm taking ukemi it just feels like I'm faking it all and that if I got bored half way though the technique I could just walk off.
Alex,

that seems to be a common fase in training around the two-year mark, at least IME. One of the reasons you start to see the holes in tori's technique is that the cooperative training develops your sensitivity to what your partner is doing. You need the same sort of sensitivity to feel what uke is doing, so that eventually when uke starts to resist or go in an unexpected direction you are able to go with them and use the new situation to your advantage. It really can be done.

What you could do, to train yourself, is to not take your own balance, but also not resist. Move with the technique, allow it to happen, but keep as much in balance as you can while keeping moving. Take note of openings of your partner but don't make use of them.

You could also ask one of your seniors to train freely sometime with you, so that you have "permission" to try and escape, get your balance back, try all the tricks you can think of. I find this wonderfully calming when I start to doubt my training...

kvaak
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Old 04-18-2005, 10:21 AM   #42
Ian Upstone
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Re: Defending against Aikido

I went through a phase thinking exactly the same thoughts after coming from a karate background and doing aikido for a short while. I learnt a few techniques - but doubted the efficiency of them in a 'real fight' and came to the same conclusions in my training about cooperating ukes and such like. There seemed no point to it. I only stuck with aikido because I was fascinated by the movement and the many other apects other than the obvious 'practical' one. If indeed that was all I was interested in, I'd be long gone by now...

Then after a while, I came to realise that it's never going to be a case of "if X happens, I'll do Y". Even those with the fastest, cat-like reactions cannot possibly recognise, evaluate, and then react to so many different factors within the time it takes to get punched on the nose.

The specific techniques we learn are not fighting methods, but are training methods. Noone is ever going to do a textbook technique in an unpleasant situation, or stand in kamae while someone squares up to them! It's easy to stop or redirect an aikido technique if you know what is coming and nage/sh'te would rather compromise their technique than injure you. Reversal techniques, and being 'un-uke' are all irrelevant off the mat, but are essential training on it.

IMO, the whole point of training many different techniques repeatedly over and over and over is to develop a strong centre (line) and ingrain the movement and principles behind the techniques (as well as many other less immediately obvious benefits).

I would follow Pauliina's suggestions. Don't worry about it being fake or inneffective, just continue training, explore all other avenues other than the obvious 'fighting' one and hopefully you'll get to the point where you'll be the one encouraging others that have doubts about what they are doing.
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Old 04-18-2005, 03:27 PM   #43
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Ian Upstone wrote:
The specific techniques we learn are not fighting methods, but are training methods. Noone is ever going to do a textbook technique in an unpleasant situation, or stand in kamae while someone squares up to them! It's easy to stop or redirect an aikido technique if you know what is coming and nage/sh'te would rather compromise their technique than injure you. Reversal techniques, and being 'un-uke' are all irrelevant off the mat, but are essential training on it.
I couldn't have said it better myself! After studying aikido for last 9 years or so, I am working with some really good MMA and BJJ guys and I am getting my ass handed to me. I thought I was pretty good but I am finding out that things are much, much different when you go up against skilled opponents.

That said, unskilled, not one problem using my aikido, it works great, just ask the two new guys I kotegaeshi'd today!

Things are much different when the cooperation stops!
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Old 04-18-2005, 03:54 PM   #44
CNYMike
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
.... as I say the best defence against Aikido is to be an "anti-uke". I think we've all had experiences with newbies that don't know to bend their arm for ikkyo for example.
Actually my experince as uke at some training sessions has been that when some people don't have their ikkyo quite right, I'm able to wriggle my arm free when they should be pinning me because they've missed something. The more experienced people (and the instructors) don't miss that detail and they most deifnitely have me.

In martial arts, the devil is in the details. You can get away with muffing them in a striking system because with some natural ability you can hit hard without having everything just *so,* but when you get into locking and throwing as Aikido does, the details matter more; on one occassion I held an uke UP because the muscles in my upper body were too tense!

Quote:
.... In my opinion our style of co-operative training is unqiue because it does beyond simply holding a kick shield or a focus mit or exercises like pushing hands. In our art is it virtually the entirety of our art, no other invests half it's energy and time in teaching you how to do what the other person wants. So even if you're 8th Dan Shihan if you've never been in a fight you've never thrown anyone that hasn't wanted to be thrown ....
The question of when and how much an uke should resist seems to be a lot more complicated than it appears in the beginning stages of training, and even then it may vary between styles of Aikido. If you and your sensei had nothing else to do for an hour and a half, (s)he could probably lay it out for you.

Quote:
..... and I tend to find that Aikido techniques only work if I have a good uke .....
In a recent karate class, my instructor demonstrated and application that includes nikkyo and switching to kote gaeshi. I had no problem doing it on my partner, even though he's a wrestler and was definitely grabbing on very hard. Having been working on nikkyo since last march probably helped.

I also snagged sort of a nikkyo on a training partner in Tai Chi class once. My partner (who's also in my Kali/Serak class) and I were doing pushing hands. He tried to trap me, and I felt my hands being sandwiched into a nikkyo position. So I cranked on his wrist. He didn't slam to the ground like a "good uke" should, but it must have been a might uncomfrotable because he bent over and said, "Ok, that's enough of that." (He's also very flexible, which could account for it.) And then when I'd let go of him, he looked at me, smiled and said, "I do believe that was Aikido."

So that's two examples of Aikido techniques working -- or at least not failing miserably -- away from the good ukes of an Aikido class. It's worth noting that the same techniques appear in other arts, including the grappling sections of Kali, and work quite well. None of my seniors or instructors had ever any problem throwing me, and in each case I outweight the gentlemen in question by something like 50 pounds. Yet I'VE been the one having trouble with the throws!

I hear what you're saying -- sometimes, you wonder if uke is falling for you, regardless of whether you are uke. It doesn't help matters that some higher level yodansha aim for being totally unable to tell what happened on that point. But it's a long way from that to saying "It doesn't work at all!" especially if the same techniques are found elsewhere.

Quote:
..... what do you learn if the person you're training with co-operates with you to such an extent that the co-operation is an integral part of the technique?
The technique. Safely.

One of my recent projects has been to properly take ukemi for ikkyo and nikkyo, meaning pushing myself forward so my knee doesn't smack into the ground. That can be very bad if you're on something other than a crash mat. You're saying, "Ah ha! So when uke goes forward it's uke doing it." Maybe. But in working on that, I learned that it relieved the pressure on my arm, making it much less painful. This is good. And one evening I went home with pain in my HIPS, not my arms or upper bodies, verifying the idea that osae waza are about controling the center, not just locking up the joints for a submission.

And I learned all that by cooperating.

The fact that ukemi waza are referred to in just that manner, connoted by "waza" just as the other areas are, tells me they're important and you have to study what's going on there, not just use it to avoid getting hurt on landing (although that is always good).

So IMO, the asnwer to your question is "a lot."
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Old 04-18-2005, 04:47 PM   #45
Ketsan
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Re: Defending against Aikido

I don't know. First day I walked into the dojo I thought Aikido was pants but since my Lao Gar/ Kickboxing (instructor taught both) dojo had closed down and my Ju-jitsu sensei buggered off to Japan 4 years earlier and the previous dojo (TKD mixed with Ju-jitsu) I'd trained in was only really into jumping into the ring with someone and beating them senseless for no real reason, I decided I'd stay until I found a decent ju-jitsu dojo since some of the techniques looked fairly familiar. Then there was a honey moon period, then there was a whole denial period then there was a period of disillusion.
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Old 04-18-2005, 11:55 PM   #46
kironin
 
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
But as I say the best defence against Aikido is to be an "anti-uke". I think we've all had experiences with newbies that don't know to bend their arm for ikkyo for example.
why would I care if someone bends their arm or not ? you don't need them to bend their arm to do an effective ikkyo.

Quote:
and I tend to find that Aikido techniques only work if I have a good uke.
then you haven't trained properly and really don't what you are talking about.

Quote:
I've been studying Aikido for just over two years now
or you haven't trained long enough to have the skill to deal with an uncooperative uke,

unless you have been training daily as a live-in student, that means you been doing it just long to know which foot goes where but it's doubtful you are getting the details right and probably are not even really seeing the details yet.

Quote:
Hence I've hit something of a crisis in my own training. I mean there's part of me that thinks I'm talking nonsence, but I don't know. I watch tori performing a technique on me and I see holes that I can exploit and when I'm taking ukemi it just feels like I'm faking it all and that if I got bored half way though the technique I could just walk off. Then when I'm tori I wonder which one of us is actually in control, am I throwing uke or is uke throwing themselves with me dancing around the outside. I mean ok, co-operation but what do you learn if the person you're training with co-operates with you to such an extent that the co-operation is an integral part of the technique?
everyone has crisis in training. everyone goes through phases, plateaus and doubts. but...
unfortunately there are places that don't know what the hell they are doing and they are just dancing. The only way you will know if you are in one of those places is if you just stop dancing. I would suggest you talk to a senior student that you feel you know and is level headed. Ask politely about resistance and if you can try somethings with to address some questions you have been having.

Ukemi should go the range from total cooperation to total resistance. An uke who can modulate across that range depending on the level of nage is what I would consider a good uke. Advance training should have the goal to elicit cooperation out of uke when uke is attacking with good balance and resisting and doesn't want to cooperate. IMO there can be no honest true Aikido without such honest conflict to resolve. Totally cooperative practice is a beginning of training.

There is no such thing as an anti-uke for a properly trained nage.

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Old 04-19-2005, 12:11 AM   #47
Hardware
 
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
...Hence I've hit something of a crisis in my own training. I mean there's part of me that thinks I'm talking nonsence, but I don't know. I watch tori performing a technique on me and I see holes that I can exploit and when I'm taking ukemi it just feels like I'm faking it all and that if I got bored half way though the technique I could just walk off. Then when I'm tori I wonder which one of us is actually in control, am I throwing uke or is uke throwing themselves with me dancing around the outside. I mean ok, co-operation but what do you learn if the person you're training with co-operates with you to such an extent that the co-operation is an integral part of the technique?
One shouldn't try to imagine any Aikido technique being executed in the pure form as seen in a dojo in a real-world, combat situation. It could possibly happen, (in theory) but one should never strive for that.

At our parent dojo the senior level black belts tend to resist techniques to force us to hone our hara power - the techniques always end up looking different - and this is still with a highly trained Uke who ultimately will take ukemi properly for the technique!

I don't think the idea is that you would ever perform any "textbook" Aikido technique in a real situation, but you should simply use any facet(s) from any and all techniques you know to suit the situation.
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Old 04-19-2005, 12:44 AM   #48
CNYMike
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
I don't know. First day I walked into the dojo I thought Aikido was pants....
Is that good or bad? I'm not up on my UK slang.

Quote:
..... but since my Lao Gar/ Kickboxing (instructor taught both) dojo had closed down and my Ju-jitsu sensei buggered off to Japan 4 years earlier and the previous dojo (TKD mixed with Ju-jitsu) I'd trained in was only really into jumping into the ring with someone and beating them senseless for no real reason, I decided I'd stay until I found a decent ju-jitsu dojo since some of the techniques looked fairly familiar ....
Of course they're familiar; Aikido techniques are from jujitsu. And since body mechanics remain a constant, that's why they pop up elsewhere, too.

Quote:
Then there was a honey moon period, then there was a whole denial period then there was a period of disillusion.
Really? Let me ask you something: How many of the people you are training with in Aikido are newbies with no previous martial arts training? Probably a lot of them. Think that effects your perceptions? Of course it does. And if some of your fellow students are taking Aikido as their very first martial art and don't have any previous training or experience, would that account for why they barely have you? Yup.

That said, let's face it, you really only have two options now in the face of the advice you've been given: Either press on with your training and see how you feel about it over time. Or quit Aikido, write it off as a horrible mistake and a waste of time, and find something else to train in.

The choice is yours.
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:23 AM   #49
CNYMike
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
..... you really only have two options now in the face of the advice you've been given: Either press on with your training and see how you feel about it over time. Or quit Aikido, write it off as a horrible mistake and a waste of time, and find something else to train in.
Actually, Alex, you kinda have a third option: crosstrain in something else that addresses your concerns. That's a subset of the option to press on, though. But even then ....

Quote:
The choice is yours.
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Old 04-19-2005, 03:20 AM   #50
ruthmc
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Re: Defending against Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
I don't know. First day I walked into the dojo I thought Aikido was pants....
Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Is that good or bad? I'm not up on my UK slang.
In the UK, to say something is pants means you think it's total rubbish (garbage). So, bad then

Ruth
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