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Old 08-30-2005, 04:11 PM   #76
toyamabarnard
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Please excuse me, but I must disagree with the last post from you Christopher. Here on Aikiweb in articles / general / Memoir of the Master (quotes from the founder) the very first quote is:

'As ai (harmony) is common with ai (love), I decided to name my unique budo Aikido, although the word "aiki" is an old one. The word which was used by the warriors in the past is fundamentally different from that of mine."

But again these are just my views and this doesn't make them right as much as I may like it

Thanks
Brian
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Old 08-30-2005, 04:16 PM   #77
Chris Li
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Brian Barnard wrote:
Please excuse me, but I must disagree with the last post from you Christopher. Here on Aikiweb in articles / general / Memoir of the Master (quotes from the founder) the very first quote is:

'As ai (harmony) is common with ai (love), I decided to name my unique budo Aikido, although the word "aiki" is an old one. The word which was used by the warriors in the past is fundamentally different from that of mine."

But again these are just my views and this doesn't make them right as much as I may like it

Thanks
Brian
He's talking about two different characters for "ai". In other words, it's a kind of a pun in order to make a point. You can check out the original Japanese in "Take Musu Aiki" for reference.

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-31-2005, 12:09 PM   #78
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

thanks for your notes brian. it certainly clears things up a bit. and i particularly agree with your statements on "with ki a part of everything...", because for me this indicates a more subjective understanding of how we feel. that is: a tsunami is certainly a disaster, and in this sense "negative" for many people. but it also has a purification potential, in revitalizing dead spaces in the ocean, infusing them with new water, and in this sense "positive" for the local fish, and anyone who must eat or make their living from the ocean. in that way, "positive" and "negative" or a matter of momentary prejudice, but do not necessarily carry with them a perminant or universal sense for any phenomena. in fact, i suppose we can understand any activity in this way as a balancing effect, perhaps a manifestation of "aiki", eh?

in regards to your second note: that would make a lot of sense, at least experientially. that is: in explaining how we get to concepts like "the devil" in trying to explain an expeirence of negativity.

but i would argue that this doesn't show, necessarily, the concrete existence of "evil", per se, but rather the potential to use one's skills for what we could call "evil". if someone is actually coming to kill me for no reason, we could difine this as evil. and the feeling thru ki i would get would certainly be negative. but i would think it was his or her action that is, in a sense, "evil", not his/her ki itself.

fun fun
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Old 09-11-2005, 06:17 PM   #79
Mark Uttech
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

ki is not the mundane
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:17 PM   #80
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Ki Symbol Re: what does religion say about ki?

Wow, this is certainly a well discussed thread! I'm not sure I'm adding anything here. But here goes anyway. Ki has been discussed far and wide since I first learned of it. But purists would say that only when the term Ki(tm) is used, is Ki actually being discussed. But the question is what does religion say about it.
Well, to be very literal here, we are only talking about Shinto and Buddhism, since these are the religions which formed the culture that coined the expression. I am told that in modern Japanese, Ki simply means "energy" of all forms. That it is in Medieval Japanese that Ki means "life force" as is depicted in the pictograph . But what does that mean today in the West? Not much, really as we have no equivalent concept of a universal life force in our socio-religious conscious. For over 2000 years we have thought, taught and practiced a deity centered religion of one sort or another. The closest thing we have to such a "force" is the Holy Spirit. Now if we think that perhaps the atheistic Buddhists sensed this Spirit, but could not name it, yadda, yadda, yadda. You know the argument. They tried to comprehend the universal, infinite with finite minds. Probably so...But I have to wonder...

So, as a practicing Roman Catholic who is in training to be a lay minister and teacher, I can say that this branch of Christianity says that it is yet another bit of evidence of God's wonderful creation. Now some protestant fundamentalists will say that it is just "the devil". That it doesn't exist. Oddly, my first instructor was a deacon in one of those churches. Um, I'm a member of the Ki Society. No, we accept this as just another indication of the "finger of God" This goes along with the notion of the Quantum Zero Point Field. It is just the residual of the Holy Spirit's operation in creation.

DISCLAIMER:
I am not an official spokesperson for the Roman Catholic Church and what I say should not be interpreted as dogma or official church doctrine. I have spoken to clergy about ki and those who have an opinion have no problem with it. Of course, like all organizations, there are variations of opinion among clergy about things not set in doctrine.

Happy Shugyo,

John B. Davis
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:41 AM   #81
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
John Davis wrote: View Post
. But what does that mean today in the West? Not much, really as we have no equivalent concept of a universal life force in our socio-religious conscious. For over 2000 years we have thought, taught and practiced a deity centered religion of one sort or another.
As an Indian once said, "What do you mean WE, paleface?"
LOL

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 09-13-2008, 12:17 PM   #82
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
John Davis wrote: View Post
Well, to be very literal here, we are only talking about Shinto and Buddhism, since these are the religions which formed the culture that coined the expression.
Don't forget the Chinese.
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Old 09-13-2008, 12:37 PM   #83
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Ok, ya both got me there. LOL, I meant the European and White Eye Americans.

As to the Chinese, yeah they taught the Japanese a language and their Chi became the Japanese Ki. Also, Zen seems to be a conflux of Buddhsim and Taoism. They call it Ch'uan, the Koreans Soen and the Japanese, Zen. So I meant no disrespect to them either...But Ki is a Japanese word and as used today in Aikido a Japanese concept...

Happy Shugyo,

John B. Davis
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Old 09-13-2008, 01:29 PM   #84
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
John Davis wrote: View Post
Ok, ya both got me there. LOL, I meant the European and White Eye Americans.

As to the Chinese, yeah they taught the Japanese a language and their Chi became the Japanese Ki. Also, Zen seems to be a conflux of Buddhsim and Taoism. They call it Ch'uan, the Koreans Soen and the Japanese, Zen. So I meant no disrespect to them either...But Ki is a Japanese word and as used today in Aikido a Japanese concept...
Nice 'get'.

Humor is Key!

Best,
jen

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 09-13-2008, 01:54 PM   #85
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Yes, humor. That is why Aikdo is one of the joys in my life! I've seen video of me flying through the air and landing in a heap on the floor! Shame they are not on the internet!

Happy Shugyo,

John B. Davis
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Old 09-13-2008, 03:09 PM   #86
Diane Stevenson
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Ok, I'll weigh in on this question. Not because I have a real clear understanding of Ki, though I have clearly experienced and seek to develope a control of it, but because my first "black belt" is in Christianity ( at least the protestant version )

The place I start is with Augustine, who maintained that "all truth is God's truth". The thing is, there's a whole lot of reality out there that is not addressed by Christian revelation (scriptures, prophets, apostles, Jesus). So when evaluating claims about reality/truth on subjects that really aren't within the scope of the Bible, the question we christians need to ask is not is it included, but is it contradicted or is it consistant with what we already know to be true.

I do have a sense that Ki is sort of related to the physical reality of a thing (rocks have ki), but my ki also seems to respond to my conscious will or intention. I do think this ability to manipulate ki is a function of humans being both physical and spiritual beings. It may be sort of the "interface", if you will, where our two natures blend. Probably related to what the soul is. Within the western intellectual science oriented ways of thinking about and exploring reality, we are so loced into a materialistic/mechanistic worldview, we really have just ignored this sort of thinking/exploration as fairy tale/psycho stuff.

I guess that really the way to answere your question is to at least delineate what Ki is NOT.

What Ki is not (from a Christian perspective).
Since humans who do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus and further acknowledge him as Master are described by scripture as "dead" spiritually (by their choice they isolate themselves from the ultimate and only source of life), I don't think we can call ki spiritual life -- it is a phenomenon attributed to things that are clearly dead (mineral outcroppings) and anyone can experience it.

Ki is most definitly NOT the Holy Spirit, as we have been talking about an inanimate force that we are working on controlling in our practice. First of all, the Holy Spirit is a PERSON, not a thing or a force. Ok, this gets into the triune neature of God which is a complex idea. I mean if quantum mechanics makes your head spin, this is even deeper and harder to wrap your head around. And if controlling ki was anything remotely related to trying to control the Holy Spirit /God, I'd be in a whole mess of trouble, cause this is the whole reason sorcery and necromancy etc are totally forbidden.

...not as evil as I could be
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:14 PM   #87
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Hi Diane,
Great response to this question. I used to be a protestant. An Episcopalian to be exact. I never once heard of Augustine back then. I'm glad protestants are reading the works of the early Church Fathers. I've tried to read his Confessions but had to give it up for other pursuits. I've found Thomas Merton to be far more interesting and enlightening.

Now from my church's prospective, we do not consider any human "dead" as Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was for all humankind. We are particularly careful with regard to the Jews because of our sad history of dealing with them. We even consider it possible for a "righteous non-believer" to get into heaven.

I did not mean to imply that Ki IS

Happy Shugyo,

John B. Davis
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:21 PM   #88
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Oooooops! Daggone message sent itsef...Now where was I? Oh yeah...
I did not mean to imply that Ki IS the Holy Spirit, but it is the residual energy of his work in Creation. It is everywhere in everything. It is even somewhat sentient. Now I know that I am dangerously close to stuff George Lucas trademarked, so I will tread lightly.
I believe that we are the merger of spirit and matter...Our spiritual side, if you will, is in touch with Ki, but our egos (the result of Original Sin) get in our way of feeling and using it. That is why so many sensei speak of letting go and "getting out of the way" of a technique. They mean get your ego out of it.

You didn't say what church denomination you are in or what Aikido school you attend, but keep up the good work in both. I sense that you have learned a lot both in the pew and on the mat.

Happy Shugyo,

John B. Davis
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Old 09-13-2008, 08:37 PM   #89
Diane Stevenson
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Thanks, John

A "residual energy" of the Holy Spirit, huh? hmmm that's an intriguing idea. I'll have to think about that for awhile.

Ya, the whole "spiritually dead" thing does offend a lot of people. But I haven't been able to get away from it scripturally as central: part of the "bad news" that kinda has to preceed the "good news". With the stakes as high as I percieve them to be, I'd rather offend than be complicit in someone staying asleep while the room burns around them.

On the other hand, it is extremely important to only give offense on a VERY few points -- actually I can only think of one... And, between you me and the rest of the internet, I am daily thankful that it's not MY job to sort people out.

But now I'm in danger of hijacking this thread. So, I'll shut up.

...not as evil as I could be
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Old 09-15-2008, 05:00 PM   #90
Amadeus
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

The typical western culture have a way of looking at spirit and body as two separate things. So it can be difficult to understand Ki from a western point of view.

A few decades ago the world was flat. Everybody believed the word was flat. Then they sent some chimp in a space shuttle and proved that it was roundish. So the world was round, kool gear.

Now they have been playing with mice to find out why they are depressed. They found something about weak dopamine receptors in their brain. This could conclude with the old "what affects the body affects the mind" thinking, but could also direct to the less western theory where mind and body is just two sides of the same thing. There haven't been sent a depressed chimp into space yet, so until then Ki can be hard to mix with western culture.

I have no problems buying the body and mind as one theory, even I'm a christian. I see Ki as a natural energy of the individual, the same thing we use to walk up the stairs, dogs bark with and Jesus did the Jesus-tricks with (well, natural for him). Generating more of that energy through mental discipline is just channeling hormones and what you ate for lunch. The individual's ability to strengthen it's potential.

In a way nothing spiritual at all. In another way every movement is spiritual.

(btw, I think the real reason those mice was depressed was that crazy scientist experimenting with them, but he had to make up some other theory since he was payed to do it)

Love me, hate me, tolerate me or ignore me. I care!
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Old 09-15-2008, 06:00 PM   #91
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Oh you aren't hijacking anything. This thread is old and very long.
I guess if you interpret Scripture literally, then the transition goes missed. Catholics interpret the scripture in the context it was written. Please remember most Old Testament writers did not know of eternal life. Only Abraham, Moses and Elijah were spoken of as being "taken up to heaven by God". We hold that Jesus' sacrifice was for ALL humankind, whether or not they believe in him. But that is an argument for another list. As an intuitive healer and an energy sensitive, I've only met one or two "dead" people. They were suffering from Spiritwrack and were referred to those who could help them.

Ki is real, and however you define it, it works. Both in Aikido and in healing.

Happy Shugyo,

John B. Davis
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Old 09-15-2008, 06:02 PM   #92
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

To Tarjei,

Actually it is the mice that are expiramenting on the humans. Everything will become clear when Deep Thought's successor processes the data and discloses the question to the answer of the question of the meaning of life, the universe and everything.

Happy Shugyo,

John B. Davis
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Old 09-16-2008, 07:43 PM   #93
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
John Davis wrote: View Post
To Tarjei,

Actually it is the mice that are expiramenting on the humans. Everything will become clear when Deep Thought's successor processes the data and discloses the question to the answer of the question of the meaning of life, the universe and everything.
Ya mean like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li5nMsXg1Lk

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 09-17-2008, 02:36 PM   #94
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
NARF!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:33 PM   #95
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
NARF!
POIT!

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 09-20-2008, 07:07 PM   #96
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Ruach

Of course, is a Chinese and Japanese term, but its equivalent exists just about everywhere, and in most religions. The Hebrew word is ruach, which can be translated to spirit, from the latin synonym spiritus. The Greeks called it pneuma. And so on.
I made an encyclopedia of ki synonyms. You can find it here:

http://www.qi-energy.info/qi-synonyms.htm

Man seems always to have speculated about some kind of lifeforce, very often - but not always - connected to breath. Probably for a very simple reason: people die if they can't breathe.

Now, Holy Spirit (ruach hakodesh) is a concept with additional meaning. It refers to the spirit of God, and for Christians this is part of the Trinity, indivisible from the Father and the Son. For people of this conviction it is quite necessary to see ki as something completely different.
In biblical times, though, I doubt that people would have made that distinction. To them, all spirit was from God, and still it was present in each and every one, making them able to move about. God blew life into His creatures.
In that perspective, ki and ruach have very much in common.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 09-21-2008, 12:01 PM   #97
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Funny how when we really get into Ki and cultural distinctions there are more similarities than differences.. Like laughter.

Narf!

Jen

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Old 09-21-2008, 12:10 PM   #98
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Re: Ruach

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Of course, is a Chinese and Japanese term, but its equivalent exists just about everywhere, and in most religions.

Now, Holy Spirit (ruach hakodesh) is a concept with additional meaning. It refers to the spirit of God, and for Christians this is part of the Trinity, indivisible from the Father and the Son. For people of this conviction it is quite necessary to see ki as something completely different.
In biblical times, though, I doubt that people would have made that distinction. To them, all spirit was from God, and still it was present in each and every one, making them able to move about. God blew life into His creatures.
In that perspective, ki and ruach have very much in common.
Here's another good one from the Lakota:

ina - mother (used in the context of the dynamic and active power of the earth.)

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 01-20-2009, 02:17 PM   #99
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Lightbulb Re: Ruach

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Of course, is a Chinese and Japanese term, but its equivalent exists just about everywhere, and in most religions. The Hebrew word is ruach, which can be translated to spirit, from the latin synonym spiritus. The Greeks called it pneuma. And so on.
I made an encyclopedia of ki synonyms. You can find it here:

http://www.qi-energy.info/qi-synonyms.htm

Man seems always to have speculated about some kind of lifeforce, very often - but not always - connected to breath. Probably for a very simple reason: people die if they can't breathe.

Now, Holy Spirit (ruach hakodesh) is a concept with additional meaning. It refers to the spirit of God, and for Christians this is part of the Trinity, indivisible from the Father and the Son. For people of this conviction it is quite necessary to see ki as something completely different.
In biblical times, though, I doubt that people would have made that distinction. To them, all spirit was from God, and still it was present in each and every one, making them able to move about. God blew life into His creatures.
In that perspective, ki and ruach have very much in common.
I agree.

And it gets more confusing when you look at the verse in the Bible (typical, I can't remember where ) that says one receives the Holy Spirit after they have put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

Powerful, loving, sound-minded spirit. 2Tim 1:7
http://ghoppersgrotto.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-20-2009, 03:08 PM   #100
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Re: Ruach

Quote:
Christine Knowling wrote: View Post
And it gets more confusing when you look at the verse in the Bible (typical, I can't remember where ) that says one receives the Holy Spirit after they have put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ.
And one may legitimately make the argument that this is what O Sensei did, in his own terms -- based on his own testimony --:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=18

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...49&postcount=4

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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