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Old 07-18-2005, 08:07 PM   #51
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

You're right...it is a forum about Aikido...and no...my thoughts and views come from extensive research of the subject...not Dan Brown as in your case. Anywho...yeah...back to Aikido, LOL!
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:22 AM   #52
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Alan Rodriquez:

Quote:
3.) Don't type things on public forums about other people's religion(s) without really knowing much about it...even if you THINK you're a part of their respective faith...it would only lead to embarrassment on your part. Thanks...God bless you. If you have further questions...e-mail me.
In all due respect, maybe you should follow your own advice. You certainly don't represent all segments of Christanity and belief systems that surround it. You certainly are entitled to your opinions, thoughts, and words. I frankly find some of your post toxic and intolerant.

Part of the problems in the world is that people are so eager to be understood by others that they fail to understand the world around them. Hold onto your beliefs, but seek to understand and be patient with others and theirs. It does not mean that you have to accept them, but be tolerant.

We can never acheive true peace in the world until we stop the deviseness that is wedge between all of us.
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Old 07-21-2005, 01:09 AM   #53
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Well, theoretically, as mentioned in a post above, I don;t think religion has said anything specific about KI. So maybe the question to ask is what would religion say about KI ?

Well, just an opinion: that would depend on what the individual believes KI is . I'm a realist so KI to me is not something within but to me is right posture, extension of arms to give maximum leverage and with any exercise, proper breath control to preserve your stamina while performing the technique.

I'm a Christian so I guess if thats what I beleive of KI christian theology doesn't challenge it. I refuse to think of the converse because well, its kind of unecessary for me.
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Old 07-24-2005, 11:52 AM   #54
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
...first off...the Bible was not written by word of mouth...the ONLY word of mouth that was given was that from the mouth of God...and people like Moses, Joshua, Ezra, Nehemiah, Jonah, Matthew, Luke, Peter, Paul, John, James, and the 33 other authors (44 authors and 66 books in the Bible). If was all by word of mouth how the frig do we have a Bible today?
Because they were all good at taking dictation and wrote the words of "god" down on parchment?



Carl

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"Yield to temptation it may not pass your way again." - Robert Heinlein
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Old 07-24-2005, 12:28 PM   #55
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote:
what would you say if someone said:

religion is the pursuit of: God
ki is the pursuit of: Power
I would say "That's one way of looking at it and it's neither right nor wrong unless the person reading it chooses to see it as right or wrong. Like many have said throughout this thread, there are many paths to that lead to the same place."

Having lived with no less than three people who are now in doctoral programs having to do with religous studies, after many conversation about the various religions around the world, my take is that most of them have pretty much the same tenant and that is to "be excellent to each other and party on dude" and oddly enough I personally feel as though aikido allows people to do just that.




Carl

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"Yield to temptation it may not pass your way again." - Robert Heinlein
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Old 07-24-2005, 10:57 PM   #56
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Alan Rodriquez:



In all due respect, maybe you should follow your own advice. You certainly don't represent all segments of Christanity and belief systems that surround it. You certainly are entitled to your opinions, thoughts, and words. I frankly find some of your post toxic and intolerant.

Part of the problems in the world is that people are so eager to be understood by others that they fail to understand the world around them. Hold onto your beliefs, but seek to understand and be patient with others and theirs. It does not mean that you have to accept them, but be tolerant

We can never acheive true peace in the world until we stop the deviseness that is wedge between all of us.
Okay, Mr. Leavitt...what the frig did I say in any of my previous posts regarding Christianity that were toxic and intolerant? Again...you and your ignorant self trying to be wise in your own understanding (of I don't know what..you probably wouldn't even know) saying crap you don't know about. Nothing new. I believe that true world peace is aquired through "agreeing to disagree" with people which I believe is tolerance and like you yourself said, Mr. Leavitt....not accepting what they believe....but tolerating it...however...if the information regarding Christianity and its history and theology is wrong...then...people like myself...who are Christian and KNOW what we believe in and KNOW our history and KNOW world history...I don't think it would be wrong for me or any of my other brothers and sisters in Christ to defend our faith. The Bible is very straightforward in a lot of the things that it says. You could read it yourself if you want to know the things it's straightforward about. Also...I said if one does not know about their faith or anyone elses...don't put posts or w/e on the internet about it that makes you look foolish. Also...Christianity is Christianity...it is the fact that Christ is the Son of the Lord God Almighty who is the Messiah and who is One with the the Father and the Holy Spirit. As Christians...we believe that salvation is ONLY through Christ and Christ alone and through no one or nothing else not even the good things you do for the old lady down the street...you'll still go to hell without Christ because we're all scumbags and sinners who deserve death and eternal torment but God who is so loving to us decided to send His son, Jesus Christ, to die in OUR place so that we may accept Him as Lord and become one in Christ...which saves us from Hell. That's more or less Christianity in a "nutshell". So...if what I said here doesn't represent all "segments of Chrisitianity" and "belief systems surrounding it"...too bad! That's what church, the Bible and Seminary is for...what I just said here is basic belief of all true Christians, ok Mr. Leavitt?
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Old 07-25-2005, 02:01 PM   #57
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Well here are a few select lines of post you have made:
Quote:
"Yes...but I didn't mean it as a curse (because curses are from satan, moron). "

"Frank, sir? Are you an Episcopalian Liberal Christian who should not call himself a Christian because you don't believe in any Biblically inspired theology whatsoever or are you just an idiot who just reads random parts of the Bible,"

"First of all...I do respond...y'all are just too ignorant to understand! (Like how I put the "y'all" in there?)'
Agreeing to disagree is one thing. Using words like Ignorant and moron directed toward people is quite another.

Also, these views represent YOUR particular view of Christianity, not everyones.

Also, how to you propose to defend your ideological beliefs? WIth kindness, compassion, and love? or with toxic words, warlike attitudes, and violence?

O'Sensei said, there is room for all religions in aikido..does the converse apply?

You walk a thin line between "agreeing to disagree" and tolerance, IMHO.
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Old 07-25-2005, 07:27 PM   #58
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Ok...you're right about the mean-spirited words...however...I have apologized all those times that I had said those things...so...you're the one that's being warlike and toxic for going so low by bringing up past stuff. Also...the reason I said those things was because I'm extremely fed up with the people on this site thinking they know what they're talking about...there's this very arrogant attitude on this site when it comes to talking about facts such as your's when you just said to me , "these views represent YOUR particular view of Christianity, not everyones." Yeah....maybe not every non-Christian's view of Christianity...but definitely every Christian's view of Christianity as is spoken of in the Bible as well. This is not MY interpretation...believe it or not...the Bible is not for personal interpretation...the Scriptures were meant for the reader to be led by the Holy Spirit to come to the universal Christian conclusion that Jesus Christ is Lord and that ONLY through Him is there salvation. If you think that that is only MY view of Christianity...then you need to get out more over there in Germany and visit some churches, read the Bible, and look up some information on what we Christians believe. A great site is www.equip.org. Check it out. Again...you are right in saying that the name calling I committed is not Christ like and I apologize...but I am human and as a human I have my flaws that the Lord is working on in my life...believe it or not...I'm NOWHERE as impatient as I used to be! LOL! Thanks be to God! Next time someone says something ignorant I'll be more patient and there'll be no name calling...and if there is...you can kick me off this site forever. Seriously. I mean that.
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Old 07-26-2005, 12:50 PM   #59
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Mistakes are okay...it is when they become repetitive that they stop becoming mistakes. Most all of us have egos and have to learn how to be patient! That is what life is all about!

I have found that it helps to try and deeply understand the other side as much as I can before forming an opinion or voicing an opinion...sometimes it is hard to do.

It is evident that you feel very passionate about your relationship with Jesus. That is a good thing. I hope that you try and embrace the qualities that he represents...peace, harmony, love, compassion, joy...IMHO...that is something we can all agree on regardless of our beliefs!

We should be celebrating that! I believe that is what Christ wanted us to do!

I may be direct, but I don't really consider myself arrogant. My remarks are simply to remind you that your views don't necessarily represent everyone's.

Think about your aikido...when you make assumptions about uke...you are usually wrong and it becomes hard to read them, work with them, and be effective....that is all I am saying.

Arrogance would be saying that your beliefs are wrong. I never said that...only that I feel your intolerance and assumptions about others is wrong!
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Old 08-11-2005, 10:53 PM   #60
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Joseph Bowen wrote:
Religion is the pursuit of the Divine
Ki is the pursuit of the mundane
I have no problem with the first part of this. However, the second part is, for me, a Ki Society member, odd.

Ki just is, it is not a pursuit of anything. One may pursue Ki, but Ki pursues nothing. I know this is kind of existential sounding, but there you have it.

As to Ki being a part of creation. Well, why not? If Ki is that undercurrent of energy in all things, even the inanimate, then it must have been present or created with everything else. Just my opiinion, YMMV.

Happy Shugyo,

John B. Davis
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Old 08-22-2005, 05:28 PM   #61
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

I see no problem correlating christian beliefs with eastern beliefs, or any other religion for that matter. The father,son,And holy ghost trinity of christianity matches the pure-mind, ego, and ki found in eastern traditions. There are countless religions that only differ in language at their root. Anyone who has a belief system prior to training in any authentic martial art will find a deeper meaning and connection in their original belief system based on their experiences. Likewise, a non-religious individual will develop a working knowledge of all levels of reality due to directly experiencing them in the course of their training. Again, the result is the same. As for ki in religion, I don't see the conflict, since almost all religions recognize everything in existence is a manifestation of it. Alot of people since the dawn of time have experienced "God",and when trying to explain what god is they found it necessary to break it down into components that could be understood. This is done not to explain "God",but to show others how to experience god for themselves. Many people have grown up over many years in a particular faith system and accept it's teachings blindly as a matter of course. Life or death martial training takes those faith systems and tries them by fire. Everything we believe is brought into question, until ultimately, all we are left with is an experience-based understanding of how reality really is. I have never met Jesus, but by all accounts the world is a better place for him having been in it. But he was not alone, there are also others who made a tremendous impact. I also remember reading in the bible when Jesus was asleep on a boat. A storm rose up and scared his disciples,and they woke Jesus up and told him the boat was at risk,and their lives as well. He calmed the storm and chastised them. Now, why would Jesus,a man of peace and rightousness, get angry and chew them out- unless they were capable of doing the same thing themselves? We all read of incredible feats performed by martial artists. Many people got involved in the martial arts for that very reason,despite their religious or philisophical orientation. That is the spirit we should bring to the dojo with us,open to all possibilities,ready to really learn through trial and error,and with our identity preferences set aside for the common welfare of our classmates. Our faith and ki will naturally display themselves in our technique as we develop into real, aware human beings.
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Old 08-23-2005, 03:51 PM   #62
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Ron Charron wrote:
But all appear to have practiced a lot of 'meditation'. That to me is the real key to enlightment, not the martial practice.
I would say meditation and martial practice "ought" be one and the same. Just as there are many forms of meditative practice, so too can martial practice be meditative. Through training with great intent we learn how to focus and reconcile that intent with the dictates of the reality around us. It is my personal goal to make every instant of my life a living meditation...to be in the "middle of now," so to speak. To me it's much like the idea that mankind and nature are distinct from each other, which is a common conception in my experience. I think Aikido is an active and profound meditation just as I think mankind is a part of the greater nature that is reality, whether that includes Jesus, Yaweh, Dharma or whatever is the ultimate truth of the "nature of nature."
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-23-2005, 04:22 PM   #63
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
Yeah....maybe not every non-Christian's view of Christianity...but definitely every Christian's view of Christianity as is spoken of in the Bible as well.
Forgive me for being interesting in this part of the thread; i don't mean to beat any dead horses into glue. I do however have a question regarding the idea that there is but one conception of what it means to be Christian. Why are there so many sects within Christianity? Surely it's not because of a homogenous view on the singular authority behind it which is the Bible?
Now for the original point of this thread...
I know Christians who view Aikido, of which ki is a major concept, as being perfectly in fitting with their faith, and they find no fault with the concepts expounded upon by OSensei, who was a Shintojin. I think these are people who are intimately aware of both these paradigms. From a scientific point of view, all existance/creation is matter and energy, which are essentially two sides of an existing "coin." Ki is described generally as energy, of which there are many manifestations (heat, kinetic, whatever). One very compelling aspect, to me, is the description of vibrational energy found in OSensei's teachings. This is in keeping with verified science. Whether one holds the view that you must pay homage to the force/energy described simply as "Jesus" or to all that Jesus stood for, i think the principle is the same. If I follow Jesus and through Jesus learn to follow all the virtues He encapsulates, or, if through those virtues I come to follow their source abstractly, it seems to me the result is very much the same. I have been told essentially the same thing by people who firmly describe themselves as "Christian."
Anyway, I appologize in advance for any annoyance this post may have caused. I only reply out of a sincere desire to both understand and, hopefully, provide food for thought.
Sincerely,
Matthew J Gano

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-23-2005, 04:48 PM   #64
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

"I see no problem correlating christian beliefs with eastern beliefs, or any other religion for that matter."

Christianity, in and of itself, is far more eastern than it is western (it's called the Middle East not the Middle West). Far too many of the early disciplines of the faith have been relegated to the "East." Just one example is meditation. The west won't touch meditation with a ten-foot pole but the Bible is replete with references to meditation. For all intents and purposes the word meditation, in the west, is now synonymous with "pondering."

"Western Christianity" is left without those crucial disciplines and accordingly many western adherents are left hungry for something more, deeper. And thus the draw for many in the west to the eastern religions.

For some time now I've been convinced that I could learn more about my own Christian faith from a Buddhist monk.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:22 PM   #65
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Joseph Bowen stated:

Religion is the pursuit of the Divine
Ki is the pursuit of the mundane

Nope...humbly disagree.

Religion is the pursuit of security
Ki is the pursuit of connection with all things

Just my very humble persepective.

Brenda
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Old 08-24-2005, 12:09 PM   #66
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

i've been thinking about this thread quite a bit since last night. i study comparative religions, and so this kidna stuff tends to be right up my alley.

my own research indicates the following connection:

ki = chi/qi = shakti.

these four notions are at their conceptual roots basically identical. each culture, of course, puts their own mythological/archtypal/symbolic glosses on the ideas. for example in india: shakti is also the name of a goddess who is the female concort and object of worship for the god shiva. for shivites, shiva is to be understood as the root deity (i.e. "one god", the source) of which all other deities are manifestations of on some level. shakti is the female/creative energy of the divine source (the indian way of understanding the holy spirit). conceptually this is often described as the One seperates into the male / female pair shiva and shakti, which represent much the same notion as yang and yin (yo and in in japanese).

this can be further elaborated by using the tao te ching. in section 42 we have

tao becomes one
one becomes two
two become three

three create the 10,000 things.

this can probably be understood in a multitude of ways. but the usual understanding is the tao (which, remember, is ultimately beyond words) becomes "one" (that, which in the first section of the book is described as nameable, and as "the mother"). this divides into, or indicates, two: yin and yang. this in turn becomes, or indicates, three. these three are often understood as yin, yang and chi (see the middle of chapter one). or: male energy, female energy, and the creative unifying energy.

in osensei's spiritual teachings we run into some of the same notions. the source gives birth to the one word ("su") which creates fire and water (fire and water [ka and mi -- kami] being another way of describing in and yo). all of which animates and is animated by ki.

(quick side note for the curious: ki is often made analogous to the indian concept of prana. but strictly speaking, prana comes down to breath, and the practice of prana gives of access to shakti. so prana would be better understood as relating to kokyu, as the practice of kokyu is what enables us to have access to ki.)

how all of this relates to christianity is not too difficult to see.

tao = source = father

mother = su = son / word (another way of conceptualizing "word" is "sophia", keeping in mind that the old testiment often refers to the word as feminine)

chi = ki = holy spirit

this, of course, only functions on a fundamental level, as a way of understanding how various cultures have described their experiences of these aspects of whatever you wish to call it. each culture then, quite naturally, begins to build upon these concepts various cultural glosses. and from these we get the perceived, and often practically necessary, differences between faiths.

in response to the person who asked something to the effect of whether or not ki can make people speak in tongues. it depends on your understanding of this phenomena. the gifts of the holy spirit described in acts bears strikingly incredible similarities to the descriptions of the fruits of enlightenment thru ki study as described in the eastern mystical traditions. and the preceeding descritptions in acts also look quite a bit like descriptions of enlightenment in said faiths.

however, in other faiths, while you often find people in the throws of divine ecstacy speaking, shouting, etc. in various languages, most often this lasting gift is understood as the ability to suddenly speak a language. this would seem to be so for the apostles as well, since this mostly illiterate crew then went out to spead the gospel in the languages they apparently could not speak before.

as to measuring ki: look into the study of the zero-point field in physics. this field was discovered decades ago, but study of it only recently began. some interesting aspects of it: it does not appear to be physical (in the sense of the electro-magnetic field) or non-physical, but instead seems to exist at the "zero point" (hence the name) where these distictions do not yet exist; it is in everything, quite literally, down to the smallest partical we've found yet; it appears to exist outside of the space-time continuum; it seems to be the seat of conciousness, and in this way has reinvigorated the study of what was once called parapsychology at places like harvard and cambridge, etc. be careful of the sources you find tho. this idea has been latched onto by many a new age folk, creating both positive and negative speculations and research, but also watering down the field (no pun intended) a bit. there is a book called the field by lynn mctaggart, which is pretty good, tho she is a reporter around issues of alternative health, and so her book is understandably coloured by her interests. however, the science she reports is impeccable, and thru her book you'll find the ways to do further research via scientific channels if that's your bent.

so that's some of my observations, via my field of study, on matters of ki.

sorry this post is soooooo long...

jeff.
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Old 08-24-2005, 04:47 PM   #67
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Mr. Gano...first of all...in referring to sects do you mean those religious groups that include: Scientologists, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, etc. which claim that they are "Christian" but when you get into what they believe in they have nothing to do with the Bible or Christianity whatsoever or do you mean that as in the many denominations in Protestant Christianity as well as Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy? In reference to the latter...yes...some of it has to do with how they interpret the Bible...but...each Christian denomination...whether it be R.C., E.O., or any Protestant group believes in the Trinity which includes Christ, the Bible as the infallible Word of God, and that Christ died and rose again for the salvation of our souls. You can pretty much go to any theologian and they'll tell you that that is what ALL Christians believe in. It is refferred to by some as the Essentials of true orthodox Christianity. Now...as for other secondary or "non-important" beliefs, practices, and traditions and how they run their respective churches (Church government structure)...those are the MAIN reasons why there are so many different denominations.
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Old 08-24-2005, 05:30 PM   #68
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Hi folks,

Let's try to stay on the topic of "what does religion say about ki?" in this thread. General discussion on religion not pertaining to aikido should be discussed elsewhere.

Thanks,

-- Jun

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Old 08-24-2005, 07:51 PM   #69
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Hi folks,

Let's try to stay on the topic of "what does religion say about ki?" in this thread. General discussion on religion not pertaining to aikido should be discussed elsewhere.

Thanks,

-- Jun
I appologize about the aside, Jun. I assumed a quick question would be ok so long as it didn't go much further, but I'll abstain in the future.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-29-2005, 03:02 PM   #70
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

I don't think I've ever seen a topic take followers of Aikido so far away from Aikido. Before I begin, I won't push anyone to believe or follow what I do, nor will I fight with anyone over their beliefs.

Ki or Chi, the "translation" of this concept in to English as a word means energy or power. I find it difficult to use these words to explain the concept of this force. I understand Ki as the "energy" all around us. I believe this is the "energy" in us, around us, in all things and connecting all things. There is positive Ki and negative Ki (good and bad Ki if you will).

Religion is a set of beliefs. Whatever the religion may be, each delivers it's followers things to believe in and ways or ideas to live by, usually rules to better live in harmony with the world and our fellow man (but then again, so does Aikido).

I believe that the two can be placed hand in hand in just about any religion. As a Christian couldn't the force sometimes called "Ki" actually be the presence or spirit of Christ I feel all around me and through me. I believe that both the concepts of religion and Ki require faith. You can practice religion and go to the places of worship and never believe because you've never "felt" your God or Spirits. I also believe you can practice cultivating you Ki and train to use positive Ki, but you will not gain the concept untill you have "felt" it. Both are things you can explain, but neither are things that can be taught. As for religion and Ki, I ask "What does your religion say about the energy, power, or forces around us?".

It is my oppinion that harvesting positive (good) Ki and harvesting positive relations with the world around us (from a religious perspective) are similar in nature. Both require us to take a look at who we are and how we do things and strive for a better relation with everything. Boiled down to crude fundamentals, I believe this is the basis of our Aikido as well.

Aikido has had a dramatically positive influence on my life and has helped me to better understand, or at least look deeper in to many aspects including religion. Again these are just my views and opinions, stripped down to keep it simple as they may be. Thank you for taking the time to read them.
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Old 08-30-2005, 12:53 AM   #71
Orobbin
Dojo: Niagra park youth centre, Ren Shin Kan
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Answering the question at hand (Finally)

well supposedly the last words ever found form jesus christ said:
"Chop a pile of wood and I will be there, lift a stone and I will be there, people should not spend there time worshipping me in churches, The churches are in every human being"

What I believe he meant was that the energy of life is everywhere and in everything, the place for prayer is in ourselves and salvation can be found within our spirits.

He was just touching on enlightenment, nothing more.

To answer the question of the person who wanted to know where our energy goes when we die,
I believe that our spirits go to a place I have become acustomed to calling the source this place has never existed thus can never be destroyed and it is the place that we go when being prepared for rebirth, I believe from what I have gathered that the spirit is our ki and through meditational practices energy can be manipulated and used in different ways like in the form of aikido...
zen bhuddism I think has the strongest ties to my philosophy
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Old 08-30-2005, 10:22 AM   #72
jeff.
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Brian Barnard wrote:
There is positive Ki and negative Ki (good and bad Ki if you will).
could you flesh this out a bit more? my understanding of ki/chi (deriving from what i've read) is that ki itself is the energy of harmony (what we would call aiki). and this sense of harmony in a lower state separates into "heavy ki" and "light ki" (which can be understood as positive and negative, but not in the ethical or moral sense, but more in the, say, electronic sense). and sense we have a tendency toward heavy ki, we need to concentrate on light ki in order to acheive "aiki". once acheived, from what i understand, we see that the dualistic conception of ki was just a way of conceiving of experience, but has no factual basis.

((this actually relates, methinks, to st augustine's argument that, in the end, only the light of god exists, and everything exists within that light... that evil has no being, but is merely a way of understanding true being in a relational way while we are trapped in the illusion of dualistic thinking. taoists argue much the same when they ultimately deny that tao is dualistic. saying, instead that yin and yang are just relational aspects of one thing, tao (aka chi), that have no actual being in and of themselves. which is related to the taoist notion of "evil"... that is: that evil is merely imbalance, or the will/tendency toward imbalance. which must be confronted with balance, or the will/tendency toward balance. but that, in the end, evil has no being. that is: it does not, ultimately, exist.))

i've never seen ki conceived in a good/bad duality. that is: i've never seen the notion that there is "bad" (or, i suppose evil) ki. so, if you've got the time, play with this a bit more. and include any references you might have so i can look them up and think about it more. thanks!!

as to the relationship with aikido... i can't speak for anyone else, but these issues are instrinsically related to my understanding and practice of aikido. that is: i would argue that osensei (as evidenced in his talks) intended aikido to include discussions of philosophy and theology, as well as science, etc. (i.e. he included "deep learning" as one of his two wheels, along with training, in the vehicle of budo). this is one of the many things that drew me to aikido.
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Old 08-30-2005, 01:08 PM   #73
toyamabarnard
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Sorry about the explanation Jeff. I was trying to keep it as basic as possible. I'll try to clear this up a bit.

"my understanding of ki/chi (deriving from what I've read) is that ki itself is the energy of harmony (what we would call aiki)."

My perspective to English: Do Way or The Way (the path), Ki Energy or power (the energy of the universe) Ai Harmony (also defined as Love in some Japanese to English dictionaries). I always understood Aikido to be the way of the power of harmony, and therefore Aiki to be the power of harmony (or more aptly, the path of striving to achieve harmony with Ki, or harmony with the force that drives the universe). For me this involves way less technical (body) training than it does mental and spiritual. A better way to understand myself and my relationship to the world if you will.

Using this line of thinking, when I refer to "good and bad" Ki it is not my intent to say "good or evil" (as I believe good and evil reside in men, not in Ki it's self), but more of "helpful or harmful" Ki. I will try to give some examples of my thoughts: if we believe (or if I do ) Ki is everywhere and in everything then the breath in my body now has "negative" Ki and must be removed after expelling this I intake fresh air containing "positive" Ki, plants on the other hand take in my exhaled breath (my negative Ki) as positive to survive and in turn give off their "negative" Ki as Oxygen (my positive Ki). On a hot day cool water splashed on me has "positive" Ki, on a very cold day that same water has "negative" Ki (of course this Ki is not only the waters, but a combination with the weathers Ki, which is a combination of the Earths Ki with that of the rest of the universe ). It is my understanding that Ki (or what we are referring to as Ki) travels along certain paths in the body and that if these paths are not "in alignment" as they should be there can be pain or illness (like a kink in a hose that blocks the water flow). I assume this would also mean that if the energy that would be positive for one part of me becomes directed to another part this could become negative Ki and could cause harm (like plugging an American appliance in in Europe ). An ocean wave is perceived as a beautiful calming thing, a Tsunami is viewed as a catastrophe, the same Ki drives the waves, but in different ways. There is an exchange in energy in all of these things, some have what we would perceive as "positive" effects and other's we perceive as "negative".

With Ki a part of everything and everything a part of Ki this becomes very difficult to break down in to words. These can not be defined as good or evil they are just parts of nature. Everything has Ki and is part of Ki, but for "harmony" to exist this Ki must be the right type and in the right order order. If we think of Ki as the rippling effects of drops on the surface of a clear pond we can see that the ripples effect each other, some flowing in harmony some disrupting other ripples. And to try and keep on the post topic, I believe that this is the very nature of "Ki" with any religion.

I'm afraid I'm at work and have no books with me, but I will try to provide some sources later in the post. Please understand that this is me trying to break things down to "simple". Also, these are only my opinions and views and PLEASE remember that I claim no ancient wisdom (or new wisdom for that matter ) and do not consider myself a scholar. These are things I reflect on and should be reflected on by all of us in our own way. Thank you for taking the time to read.
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Old 08-30-2005, 01:52 PM   #74
toyamabarnard
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Hi everyone me again (sorry). As I re read what i had just written I started to reflect on it some (not exactly what i should be doing at work but....). If Aiki is the power of harmony and Kiai is disrupting someones harmony with the power of Ki in the form of a shout, and we can "feel" negative feelings coming from a person (anger, hate etc...) or positive (love, happiness). If people can project their Wa, could this force be deemed as "good or evil" Ki? And following this line (and to finally be on the subject of the post) could the "presence of God" be good Ki and the "feeling the devil" be "evil" Ki? or are some "forces" simply projected a certain way or picked up by our "receptors" a certain way? I know this is contradictory to what I just posted, but there it is anyways.

I don't have any answers on these and could be way off base. Just random thoughts that found their way in. I'll be pondering this myself for a while now and would love to hear anyones thoughts on this.
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Old 08-30-2005, 02:29 PM   #75
Chris Li
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Brian Barnard wrote:
My perspective to English: Do Way or The Way (the path), Ki Energy or power (the energy of the universe) Ai Harmony (also defined as Love in some Japanese to English dictionaries).
The character "ai" doesn't really mean "harmony" there are other words in Japanese that would be used for that. A better translation would be "meeting" or "fitting together", which is similar, but not quite the same. In any case "Aikido" isn't threee words ("ai"+"ki"+"do"), but two - "aiki" + "do" which changes things a little bit.

Also, "ai" as in Aikido is never defined as "love" in any dictionary. Morihei Ueshiba used to talk about "ai" as in "love", but he was making a kind of a pun on a different character with the same pronunciation.

Best,

Chris

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