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Old 04-14-2005, 09:35 PM   #26
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

what would you say if someone said:

religion is the pursuit of: God
ki is the pursuit of: Power
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Old 04-14-2005, 10:40 PM   #27
tedehara
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Ted Chaffin wrote:
...Responses along the lines of, "the bible doesn't talk about Ki"...
Maybe it does or maybe it doesn't.
Quote:
King James Bible New Testament Mark 5:24-34
24 And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.
25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse.
27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
About You
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Old 04-14-2005, 11:12 PM   #28
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

I continue to think about this issue personally.


variously lifted from: http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1201W1.htm


"...
We see in every country sects that attempted the control of prana. In this country there are mind-healers, spiritualists, Christian Scientists, hypnotists, and so on. If we examine these different sects, we shall find at the back of each is the control of prana, whether they know it or not. If you boil all the theories down, the residuum will be that. It is one and the same force they are manipulating.... Thus we see that pranayama includes all that is true even of spiritualism. Similarly, you will find that wherever any sect or body of people is trying to discover anything occult, mysterious, or hidden, they are really practicing some sort of yoga to control their prana. You will find that wherever there is any extraordinary display of power, it is the manifestation of prana. 13"

...
?The concept of prana ("breath") is a key to the process. Pranayama refers to the knowledge and control of prana, or mystical energy, not merely to the control of one's physical breath. 9 Prana is believed to be universal divine energy residing behind the material world (akasa). Prana is said to have five forms, and all energy is thought to be a manifestation of it. Swami Nikhilananada describes it in his Vivekananda—The Yogas and Other Works as "the infinite, omnipresent manifesting power of this universe." 10 Perfect control of prana makes one God. One can have "infinite knowledge, infinite power, now":

What power on earth would not be his? He would be able to move the sun and stars out of their places, to control everything in the universe from the atoms to the biggest suns. This is the end and aim of pranayama. When the yogi becomes perfect there will be nothing in nature not under his control. If he orders the gods or the souls of the departed to come, they will come at his bidding. All the forces of nature will obey him as slaves.... He who has controlled prana has controlled his own mind and all the minds... and all the bodies that exist.… 11
"
"In other words, prana, God, and occult energy are all one and the same. The one who practices yogic breathing (pranayama) is by definition attempting to manipulate occult ("divine") energy."
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Old 04-15-2005, 10:44 AM   #29
Jake Karlins
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

IMO traditional religion doesn't say a whole lot about ki, at least explicitly. I don't see it in Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism. Hinduism, Islam, I know less about. But I'm not really that well-educated in religion, I could be off-base. It just seems that people who are equating ki and religion have to do so on their own, and stretch traditions a little (not a bad thing necessarily, but to say ki is inherent in Christianity or whatever is far from orthodox, arguable, maybe, but that's the thing- it's not clear).
Which religion? are they all lumped in together (this implies to me they're all the same, and is this accurate?)?
I didn't find the Bible quote all that convincing, seems very open to interpretation. I find the new age prana quote a little disturbing, in that it suggest I can "have infinite power, now." Sounds like a sales pitch. However, what I do agree with, in a more general way, is that many spiritual people of various ilk seem to tap into some kind of energy- this isn't theory here, I'm saying that when I'm in the prescence of really religious people, even those whose ideas I find problematic, I often feel a great deal of energy coming from them. This suggests to me that there's something going on- some connection between energy manifesting itself and religion. What the connection is, though I don't know. I'm kind of waiting for this connection to make itself clear in its own time.

one last response- I'd say religion is more about the pursuit of truth, and about training to live well in the world, more about this than the search for God. If God is part of that truth, fine, if not, that's okay, too. I would also differ with the idea that ki is "the pursuit of power." I see it as a living thing, to be experienced. What you do with your ki is up to you. Traditionally, it tends to be used to heal, or to increase function in martial arts. It makes the body work better. Whether this is power or not, I don't know...
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Old 04-15-2005, 01:29 PM   #30
John Boswell
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

I do know THIS: a shodan in my class has a master degree in theology and is a card carrying christian like few I've ever seen... and HE has no problem with the term "Ki" and is able to grant that various people have varied opinions on it.

Find out what Ki is to YOU. So long as YOU understand it, can use it, work with and around and through it... what does it matter what other people think?

Be true to yourself... To thine own self, be true.

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Old 04-16-2005, 09:55 AM   #31
Qatana
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

[quote=. I find the new age prana quote a little disturbing, in that it suggest I can "have infinite power, now." ...[/QUOTE]

Prana New Age? Prana is Ki is Chi and it has been written about and discussed for several thousand years.
And I don't know any Buddhist teacher or yoga teacher who advocates cultivating "power" of any kind except for concentration.

Prana is Breath.

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 04-17-2005, 02:46 AM   #32
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote:
what would you say if someone said:

religion is the pursuit of: God
ki is the pursuit of: Power
Hmm. Don't know if I could agree with that.

I'd be more likely to opine that religion is the pursuit of power, myself. And many folks following asian spiritual traditions might venture that their pursuit of things relating to ki was a way to reach for god-ness.

YMMV.

Personally, I don't think religion has anything it can or ought to say about ki. Much like the church-and-state seperation, religion should be in the heart, the church/temple/grove, and in the home, if you choose to believe ... but religion has no place in the dojo unless the dojo is connceted to a (related, i.e.; Shinto or Buddhist) religious tradition itself (ad then very likely it would have very specific doctrine concerning ki and kami and such...).

Chuck

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Old 04-22-2005, 01:28 PM   #33
DustinC
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
A good movie on the subject I just watched is What the Bleep Do We Know!?. If you have a hard time reading heavy stuff, this movie is at least entertaining and thought provoking. It made my wife and I think about a lot of things. Very relevant to aikido and self improvement. To me it is explains the essence of KI.
A very interesting movie, which I believe speaks indirectly about ki.

I see ki development to be a spiritual pursuit. Born and raised a Catholic I have since stepped out of organized religion and the church to pursue a personal path. I mean Jesus only went to church once and that was to trash the place. If there is one thing I learned from him it is that questioning and challenging conventional ideals and practices is essential to our spiritual growth.

Having seen the positive effects that meditation can have on society (recorded drops in violence etc) and the way our thoughts and words affect not only our internal makeup, but the makeup of water (and who knows what else) I sincerely believe "plus ki calls plus ki".
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Old 04-22-2005, 03:58 PM   #34
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
religion is the pursuit of: God
ki is the pursuit of: Power
Check that,

Religion might be the pursuit of God

Ki is the sneakers you've got on to catch up to that sonofa%$^#@!

~~~~~
Like others basically said,

Ki is between you and the universe,

God is between you and God

God being that all-encompassing type, kinda like the universe, oh, and Ki kinda like permeating everything, thus encompassing it, um, wait, am I talking about god, ki, or the physical universe? There's so much room to move around in these three seemingly different arenas. Maybe they're the same arena.

At least 99.999999% percent of the eyeball you're using to read this right now is empty space, same goes for the screen, same goes for lead, feathers, the moon. The matter of You never touches anything in the sense we understand, and right now you are slowly diffusing into your clothing, or at least into the chair you may, or may not, be seated in, and it into you.

Two atoms brought within a certain distance of any other atom in all the universe results in a repulsive force between those atoms. Both atoms are shifted due to this, the one with more momentum 'moves' the other. This in turn affects atoms bonded to the atom 'moved', so on and so forth, and before you know it you're looking up at nage, glad they didn't diffuse you all the way into the mat...

Sounds a bit like Ki, eh? Just because I didn't talk about it doesn't mean i ruled out god, or the divine. I only know a teensy bit about the universe, which is still a lot more than i know about god, or the divine.

Happy Friday

logan

Last edited by MikeLogan : 04-22-2005 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 04-23-2005, 04:38 AM   #35
matthew farina
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Just curious...I was raised christian, but wouldn't claim to be an expert on the subject, or ki for that matter, but does anyone else see similarites between ki and the holy spirit? Disregarding the whole part about the trinity of god and all that. A lot of the rest of it seems alike to me. Maybe I'm just misinformed? thanks Matt Farina.
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Old 04-23-2005, 07:26 AM   #36
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

If Ki will make you speak in tongues then yes !
seriously , you are raised christian - that is one thing ,
to be a born again by the holy spirit is another ,
revelation comes from a life in the spirit.
I think your question comes from not yet knowing the holy spirit - no offense intended.

From a christian point of view it is only natural to try to find out how it all fits together.

Please provide a little more info on the depth of your faith/belief.

Yours - Chr.B.
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Old 04-23-2005, 08:21 AM   #37
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

After reading the first post I was reminded why I left organized religion. (no judgment of the writer intended.)
Ki is a wonderful experience that we can have every time we have mind, body co-ordination. The exchange of ki that happens during a class is a gift from what gives it, whether you believe it is the universe, god or the connection of people.
Sometimes I just need to accept things in the now instead of torturing myself with analyzing. What ever happens when we die will happen whether we worry about it or not. Part of me is curious.......I hope its fun.;o)
Mary
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:24 PM   #38
Akhilleus
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Talking Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Ted Chaffin wrote:
Good luck to any of you that try to convince religious people that Ki is applicable and part of life/religion! Generally when (here in the Deep South) I get into conversations about religious similarities the responses are less than openminded. Responses along the lines of, "the bible doesn't talk about Ki", or "no, your religion is wrong, don't you know you are going to hell", are typically the norm.

What about the idea of Ki as the "energy of intent"?

Could a christian struggling with the 'rightness or wrongness' of believing in ki be solved by remembering that "god is in all things"?
Just my 2 cents.

I always tend to laugh when people quote the Bible to me and preach it as it is written in a literal sense. I fear they forget that our precious Bible is a collection of storys all coming from word of mouth. Though you look past the storys them selves to find the moral/meaning behind the passages it is negative to take the text in a literal sense.....and for those who argue against me..

"If your hand or foot causes you to sin, chop it off and throw it away! You would be better off to go into life crippled or lame than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into the fire that never goes out."

so I ask, how can you practise Aikido with no hands?! Again you look for the moral...

As far as my opinion goes on Ki and religion....I feel that though it is not in the Bible I also know that neither are Dinosaurs, Atoms, Cars, and worm holes but we sure do know they exist and we don't think of them as evil do we? I don't think God had intended to put complicated scientific/paranormal/human psyche material in the Bible, at the time it was written we were rather, and to a huge extent still are, primitive creatures.

So do I think of ki as evil/bad ? No.
Does God think of Ki as work of the devil? Don't know, and chances are neither do you.

But I feel that as long as I develop my ki in a manner which does not harm my self nor anyone else God wouldn't think about smiting me. (I hope )

ok..I better stop while I'm ahead.....
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Old 05-05-2005, 09:48 PM   #39
malsmith
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

haha i kind of like frank's reply... it made me happy.

so just a FYI, i started this thread because i go to a christian school... and alot of people ask me what i do or what i like about martial arts... but in a "christian" environment if i said anything about ki i think i would get a response like "the bible doesn't talk about Ki", or "no, your religion is wrong, don't you know you are going to hell"... but now i think i know how to handle those situations better without anyone starting to yell
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Old 05-05-2005, 11:47 PM   #40
Akhilleus
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Glad I could give you some material to fire back at the ignorance that sometimes flourishes among the "i'm right you're wrong, no ifs ands or buts" groups. Just assure them where your faith is, because thats all that matters....living the Christian life and that age old thing that the lord asked us to have...faith.
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Old 07-14-2005, 11:37 AM   #41
daniel loughlin
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

ki is energy and energy cannot be created or desetroyd so i believe that there is life after death but im not sure about reincarnation

Danny Loughlin
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Old 07-14-2005, 01:12 PM   #42
guest89893
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

I'm late reading this post and now can't help myself but:

Religion is the pursuit of rules of worship.
Ki is the pursuit of Ki.

Hhmn rude and obtuse in a single post ...not bad.
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Old 07-14-2005, 01:48 PM   #43
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
ki is energy and energy cannot be created or desetroyd so i believe that there is life after death but im not sure about reincarnation
You have proof...you just reincarnated this dead thread!

Reincarnation is easy to believe, IMHO, if you do not take it literally, in the western sense, but symbolically.

If energy cannot be created or destroyed (read back in this thread, many believe that KI while explained as energy is not simply energy), then it is transferred, as you stated.

I believe it is necessary to understand Karma and how it is created, built upon, destroyed, and transferred. From a western standpoint, the movie "pay it forward" is a wonderful example of the power of Karma.

You live your life. You influence society, the world, and the environment. As you are absorbed back into the fabric of the universe...your karma you created survives. Future generations are made up of the life force or energy as you might call it that you created, both positive and negative. They experience and inherit the legacy that you leave behind.

I personally believe that part of what is wrong with my society is that we don't believe in this concept of rebirth. Many believe we are separate from the universe and therefore are "outsiders" and here to enjoy the fruits of the earth. We don't see ourselves as custodians, or caretakers.

Maybe there is a heaven that is separate from earth, maybe there is a hell. Maybe we leave here never to return.

Think about this, what if we do get to heaven and find out that the heaven we have is the legacy (postive/negative) that we created for ourselves.....would that be heaven or hell????

Who really knows what reincarnation means. To me it means transformation. I think that is something most religions can agree on. What your particular belief in that transformation will be may vary...but what is important, IMHO, is that we always try to do the right things for ourselves and others and you cannot go wrong!

Okay time to turn off my quasi, preachy, pontification, illiterate ramblings for the night
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Old 07-17-2005, 03:41 PM   #44
Mike Sigman
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Daniel Loughlin wrote:
ki is energy and energy cannot be created or desetroyd so i believe that there is life after death but im not sure about reincarnation
Energy can be measured. Show me one instance in which ki has been measured and deemed an "energy".

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-17-2005, 03:54 PM   #45
sutemaker17
 
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Mike,
Ki can be measured by checking the subject's blood for midichlorian count.
Sheesh!

Jason
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Old 07-17-2005, 03:56 PM   #46
Mike Sigman
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Holy Smokes.... I'd totally forgotten.

Mike "Where's my light saber?" Sigman
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Old 07-17-2005, 11:09 PM   #47
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Frank, sir? Are you an Episcopalian Liberal Christian who should not call himself a Christian because you don't believe in any Biblically inspired theology whatsoever or are you just an idiot who just reads random parts of the Bible, listen to a whole bunch agnostic/gnostic wannabe type people like Dan Brown, and listen to whatever some dead old oriental guy says and think that you know what you're talking about? I just want to make a couple of points here...first off...the Bible was not written by word of mouth...the ONLY word of mouth that was given was that from the mouth of God...and people like Moses, Joshua, Ezra, Nehemiah, Jonah, Matthew, Luke, Peter, Paul, John, James, and the 33 other authors (44 authors and 66 books in the Bible). If was all by word of mouth how the frig do we have a Bible today? Wow...you need to stop talking about things you don't know about. Second...the Bible and Science go hand in hand....God created the so called Laws of Science or Physics or whatever it was that Sir Isaac Newton DISCOVERED. If you don't believe me go to sd.gospelcom.net it talks all about science and the Bible...and it has nothing to do with the heretics who refer to themselves as Christian Scientists or a better term that they have adopted, "Scientologists" who have nothing to do with Christianity. Also...if you read the book of Job...I believe it's one of the last chapters I can't recall which one it was exactly...it talked about a Leviathan which is in fact a type of Dinosaur. Also...I will agree with you that yes...not EVERYTHING in the Bible was taken to be literally....but MOST of it is and everything is taken literally in the spiritual sense because there is nothing more real than the spiritual world my friends...you don't have to believe that...I'm not making you or anything...but it's the truth...satan exists, demons exist, angels exist and most importantly the triune God exists. However...you don't have take my word for it...but...if anyone really is interested in discussing this topic further in a more appropriate setting...please...I urge you to e-mail me at Irockloud@yahoo.com. I will be more than glad to talk to you and answer any of your questions. Also...my AIM s/n is fistfulofdread and my Yahoo IM s/n is Irockloud, same as my e-mail.
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Old 07-18-2005, 03:14 AM   #48
Big Dave
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

A few thoughts....
As a Christian, I think it all depends on how you intepret or understand ki. If you believe that there is a magical force that exists outside of God's realm that can be manipulated than this would be contrary to Christian teaching. On the other hand, if you simply believe that ki exists (like gravity) by God's design, then no problem.
To me, it's like bowing to the picture of O'Sensei in the front of the dojo. IN my heart, I do this out of respect, not to revere him like a god. That too would cross the line.
I do think that Aikido's basic message of harmony is very Christian.

Alan, the Old testament stories were passed down orally for a couple of thousand years before being written down. (writing wasn't invented yet). Even the Gospels were passed down this way for 70-100 years before being written down. The Christian Bible was created by men about 300 years after the death of Christ when a bunch of scholars got together and literally picked out the best stories out of many. This collection then became known as the Bible. I know that many fundamentalists would say yes, that's all true, but God whispered the words the words into their ears as they wrote down the stories and also inspired the scholars as they did their work and created the Bible. This part you will have to decide for yourself.
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Old 07-18-2005, 06:14 PM   #49
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Mr. Peling....you have to stop listening to this gnostic nonsense! Of course I can't make you do what you want to do...you want to continue believing that...that's fine with me...but please...don't write it like it's the truth. I'm only concerned with the truth....and what you explained to me there...was farther from the truth than Japan is to my house in Buffalo, New York! LOL! I've done much research on ancient Hebrew and where it came from and what not...I go to a Messianic Jewish synogogue, ok? So I know what I'm talking about. During the time of Abraham there was a such thing as cuneiform which in fact is a form of writing, did you know that? Remember Abraham lived in Ur for a long time. Later he migrated to Canaan and adopted their language. However...there was still forms of writing even with the Canaanites! Mr. Peling...before I continue further...I think you are underestimating ancient people WAAAAYYYYY too much here! Again...the Hebrew came into the picture with it's own alphabet which Moses and many Old Testament authors used to read and write. Did you know that Moses was the author of the Pentateuch? If you don't know what that is...that's the first five books of the Bible...the first being Genesis. Also...in the New Testament (B'rith Hadoshah in Hebrew) Greek was basically the top language most people spoke in that region of the mediterranean at that time because of Alexander the Great and what not...and Greek was a written language as well. So was Aramaic which was spoken by Jesus and His disciples as well as Hebrew! So again...the Gospels were experiences the authors, which were Christ's direct disciples, had with Jesus and what He taught and did and what not. Nothing was by word of mouth as you say. Also...you made mention of some other "stories" and gospels. Those are Gnostic gospels that were written by a bunch of wannabes that had no respect for the church. Like the Gospel of Thomas for instance...Thomas never wrote a Gospel. The one who did write the Gospel was some ancient "hippie" who wanted to screw things up. If you don't believe me...I will give you some steps to help you out here: 1.) Stop reading only gnostic and agnostic literature which will only give you a false interpretation of both history, Christian history, and Christian theology. 2.) Check out the Christian Research Institute at www.equip.org. They should give you some solid, scriptural, and historical information that would really open your eyes. 3.) Don't type things on public forums about other people's religion(s) without really knowing much about it...even if you THINK you're a part of their respective faith...it would only lead to embarrassment on your part. Thanks...God bless you. If you have further questions...e-mail me.
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Old 07-18-2005, 09:04 PM   #50
Big Dave
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Re: what does religion say about ki?

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
Mr. Peling....you have to stop listening to this gnostic nonsense! Of course I can't make you do what you want to do...you want to continue believing that...that's fine with me...but please...don't write it like it's the truth. I'm only concerned with the truth....and what you explained to me there...was farther from the truth than Japan is to my house in Buffalo, New York! LOL! I've done much research on ancient Hebrew and where it came from and what not...I go to a Messianic Jewish synogogue, ok? So I know what I'm talking about. During the time of Abraham there was a such thing as cuneiform which in fact is a form of writing, did you know that? Remember Abraham lived in Ur for a long time. Later he migrated to Canaan and adopted their language. However...there was still forms of writing even with the Canaanites! Mr. Peling...before I continue further...I think you are underestimating ancient people WAAAAYYYYY too much here! Again...the Hebrew came into the picture with it's own alphabet which Moses and many Old Testament authors used to read and write. Did you know that Moses was the author of the Pentateuch? If you don't know what that is...that's the first five books of the Bible...the first being Genesis. Also...in the New Testament (B'rith Hadoshah in Hebrew) Greek was basically the top language most people spoke in that region of the mediterranean at that time because of Alexander the Great and what not...and Greek was a written language as well. So was Aramaic which was spoken by Jesus and His disciples as well as Hebrew! So again...the Gospels were experiences the authors, which were Christ's direct disciples, had with Jesus and what He taught and did and what not. Nothing was by word of mouth as you say. Also...you made mention of some other "stories" and gospels. Those are Gnostic gospels that were written by a bunch of wannabes that had no respect for the church. Like the Gospel of Thomas for instance...Thomas never wrote a Gospel. The one who did write the Gospel was some ancient "hippie" who wanted to screw things up. If you don't believe me...I will give you some steps to help you out here: 1.) Stop reading only gnostic and agnostic literature which will only give you a false interpretation of both history, Christian history, and Christian theology. 2.) Check out the Christian Research Institute at www.equip.org. They should give you some solid, scriptural, and historical information that would really open your eyes. 3.) Don't type things on public forums about other people's religion(s) without really knowing much about it...even if you THINK you're a part of their respective faith...it would only lead to embarrassment on your part. Thanks...God bless you. If you have further questions...e-mail me.


Well, all I can say is that your interpretation of things runs contrary to any scholarly history. I doubt that anything I'm going to say is going to change your mind. Ultimately this is a forum about Aikido and I think we have gotten off track here. Good luck to you.
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