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Old 03-31-2005, 02:27 PM   #26
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Punches

Almost every yoshinkan dojo does the 150 or so basic techniques...each of these has atemi and are standardized. You can find a good sample in almost any of the good yoshinkan texts out there. If you don't block the strike and move, there's a fair chance a yudansha would pop you if you are at an appropriate level for that. Many of the techniques trained outside of the 150 basic techniques will also have atemi.

The atemi most often trained will be the attention punch, a punch with the raised middle knuckle to the short ribs, almost an upper cut kind of punch designed to come in 'under the radar', a sliding backfist which is similar to the previous one. Often instructors will note (and have you try gently) elbow strikes to the ribs while entering and turning for kaitenage or sankajo. I've also been taught some sweeps, a kind of blocking kick to the thigh as uke is coming forward, using the entry as atemi, etc.

At different times, all of these may or may not be acceptable in different ways (like anywhere else). For instance, if I am working with some under 3rd kyu, and I pop them in the nose the third time I do a sankajo entry under an extended arm and cause them to bleed, I'd better be up on my ukemi the next time I'm called up...and my blocking too... Its pretty much case by case...I've had classes where the whole point was to get you used to getting hit (and not freaking out). I've also had classes that were all basic movement and rudimentary technique because there were first timers and we didn't want to scare them away the first night.

Aikido technique is generally trained in a kata or kata like form. As a result, people will get upset with you if you deviate from the form in unexpected ways without a prior agreement with your partner, and the understanding of the instructor responsible. Seems reasonable to me...

Quote:
Ron, there are tons of dojo's with people who don't have a clue what the "real world" is or what a "real fight" is.... and they simply don't want to know. Aikido is a haven where they don't have to face the real world, in a lot of cases. They consider demo's to BE the real world.
Its no more a haven than 90% of the other dojo out there...I'd say of the dojo I've seen overall, only the top 10% of any style are really serious. BJJ and MMA training may be the solid exception. But even there, the serious places place constraints over where, when and how hard striking contact can be. Not to mention the use of protective gear. You can't take all the ills of MA today and drop them in aikido's lap...the problem is much bigger than that...and you know it.



Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 03-31-2005 at 02:34 PM.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 03-31-2005, 03:08 PM   #27
Bodhi
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Re: Punches

Here is something i have been involved with http://www.dogbrothers.com/ Take a look at some of the promo clips for a taste of what may be a more realistic approach to training. For day to day training we used no protective equipment but the sticks were padded rattan wich definatley made you remain alert thereby moving towards a more realistic approach. When you train with as few restrictions as possible such as protective gear from time to time, you begin to gain a respect and heightened awareness of your movement, your opponets movement, and what will and wont work under stress. If you always train in a safe haven your technique will never progress beyond a certain point. Keep in mind this is not for everyone, you cannot go into something like this using unrealistic training methods with a less than highly motivated mindset Some of this could definatley be incorporated into Aikido given that flow drills are trained. Several Aikido teachers have found the Filipino arts to supplement their training quite nicely from what ive heard.
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Old 03-31-2005, 04:08 PM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: Punches

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
The atemi most often trained will be the attention punch, a punch with the raised middle knuckle to the short ribs, almost an upper cut kind of punch designed to come in 'under the radar', a sliding backfist which is similar to the previous one. Often instructors will note (and have you try gently) elbow strikes to the ribs while entering and turning for kaitenage or sankajo. I've also been taught some sweeps, a kind of blocking kick to the thigh as uke is coming forward, using the entry as atemi, etc.
Thanks. That's what I was trying to find out.
Quote:
its no more a haven than 90% of the other dojo out there
I disagree and so would most people I know. It's second only to Tai Chi, IMO.
Quote:
You can't take all the ills of MA today and drop them in aikido's lap...the problem is much bigger than that...and you know it.
If you'll look, you'll notice that I'm pretty consistent in saying the realism problems are not just with Aikido, Ron. I spot it in 2 messages earlier, just in a quick glance. Still, I don't want to be put on the defensive, nor should you. The problem is not with Yoshinkan nor is it with the myriad outsiders saying that most Aikido lacks realism... the problem is with the tolerance of those types of Aikido dojos by the Aikido community. You can't be both tolerant of New Age dojo's and irritated at the undeserved reputation of Aikido at the same time, in all fairness. Certainly when people mock the realism of most Taiji I don't disagree... I face facts and voice my irritation at the source, not at the people who are telling the truth and who are often well-intentioned.

Mike
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Old 03-31-2005, 04:36 PM   #29
Chris Li
 
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I find the use of this example out of context to be somewhat disengenuous. I have it on good info that while the 2nd Doshu may not have been the best in the world, in an art passed down within a family, that is not unusual. And more importantly, I have it on very good information that the 2nd Doshu was more than quite capable. Despite what an unknown source might say about his experience in trying to 'up the anti' at a public demonstration.
In my book, Kisshomaru Ueshiba remains one of the most under-estimated figures around. He was very quiet, even shy - if you passed him in the hall you might miss him, and his technique usually consisted of large, smooth, circular movements with no spectacular slams. Now, there are Aikikai teachers who are known to have scary reputations, but Kisshomaru's nikyo, if you could get him to apply it to you, was something that made them seem pale in comparison. Then you have to think about it - most of the big scary guys in the post-war Aikikai actually came up under Kisshomaru.

There's a good story in "Aikido Ichiro" about how Tadashi Abe underestimated the young Kisshomaru.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-01-2005, 07:04 AM   #30
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Punches

Hi Chris,

That's the thing...a lot of people never got the chance for the hands on experience in a venue where he 'let it out'. I have much respect for that type of man...kept the dragon under control...and no need to prove himself to others.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-01-2005, 08:00 AM   #31
Jory Boling
 
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Re: Punches

Right on topic, we focused on what to do against a jab last night. It was definitely valuable to practice against a more realistic attack and to practice more practical applications of aiki. I've found myself frustrated at times when i've focused on defense against the normal range of "traditional" aikido atemi. I just can't imagine many people attacking me with their tekatana.

In lieu of being able to train all the time against more realistic attacks am i right to try to focus on the principles of aiki? I typically treat each technique as a tool to develop some kind of sense of the uke's energy or intent. I occasionally feel i'm just being an idealist but then whenever sensei demonstrates a technique on me, i feel his "power" and become inspired again.
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Old 04-01-2005, 10:17 AM   #32
Alfonso
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Re: Punches

Do you make a distinction between Uke's attack and Atemi?

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 04-01-2005, 12:28 PM   #33
Adam Alexander
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Re: Punches

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Reference for what?
Use of the word "dance."


Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Certainly not that...Shioda's books are a much better reference for atemi. I don't think you and Mike are reffering to the same thing.
I was referring to your statement about "Aikido" and "dance" not being used together.

In my eyes, I think Aikido has similarities to dance. When dancing, I send signals through my hands (light pressure) to direct the movement. Also, when dipping, although giving warning, I approach a weak line with a spiral action.

Unfortunately, atemi has never really been as helpful as I'd like when trying to impress a lady
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Old 04-01-2005, 01:00 PM   #34
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Punches

On dance, I was thinking last night that professional dancers are some of the toughest SOBs out there...ever see what modern and classical dancers go through in their training??? I couldn't do it, no way Jose...

RT

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-01-2005, 10:02 PM   #35
SeiserL
 
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Re: Punches

It's A Lot Like Dancing, An Aikido Journey by Terry Dobson (1993, Frog Ltd. North Atlabtic Books).

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-01-2005, 10:52 PM   #36
xuzen
 
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Re: Punches

Quote:
Jason Potenza wrote:
...<snip>...
Try this exercise sometime, run, swim, jump rope, hit a heavybag, do windsprints or ANY cardio exercise for 3 minutes as hard and as fast as you are able, then IMMEDIATELY have your training partner attack you using whatever means they wish (stick, knife, empty hand etc) ...<snip>... Do this with full intensity, just freaking attack you all out like your the only thing standing between them and their drowning child. Then you may begin to see if your techniques even come close to maybe working under pressure. I promise you you wont be able to catch that punch and your techniques wont look as smooth and pretty as they do in your dojo. ...<snip>...
Dear Jason,

Thanks for your jolt into realism. Although I may not have the opportunity to try and do all the above exercise prior to training... the closest that I have train under duress was when in Jiyu Waza/Randori sensei kept asking ukes after ukes come at me (one on one, fortunately). After the 3rd or 4th uke, and with a time period of probably a few minutes but to me seemed like an eternity, my techniques sure hell doesn't look like any standard aikido. I am aware that it became short with lots of atemi, pushing, shoving and avoidance. I sure hell don't recall doing any of those nice sankajo or yonkajo etc.

I love that experience, it allows me to know myself better i.e., how my body would react when my cognitive brain is not working. Thanks again for your input, Jason.

Domo arigato.

Xu.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 04-02-2005, 03:51 AM   #37
Bodhi
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Re: Punches

Xu, glad to hear your training hard! I love the exercize your talking about, it really helps you learn to relax under pressure, not to mention stripping your technique to the bare essentials and giving you the mindset you need to last (see if you can get your teacher to add in some sticks and training blades with chalked surfaces, it kicks it up a notch, kali style Everything becomes short n sweet when your working from a tired, injured, or multiple opponent situation. I remember certain instances when i had to deal with 2 and 3 people at a time, thanks to the exact same exercize you ve mentioned, i was able to walk away, well actually limp away Anymore than 2 or 3 attackers and i usually introduced anequalizer When your tired, injured, or have multiple opponents, you find out real quick if youve been training right. What you said about getting to know yourself better is sooooo true! When you train hard, with realism, against resisting opponents that are pushing you to your very limits, it makes you dig down deep inside and tap a part of yourself that was put there long ago, and meant for only one thing.

With respect
J

Last edited by Bodhi : 04-02-2005 at 04:04 AM.
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Old 04-02-2005, 08:21 AM   #38
Don_Modesto
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Re: Punches

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
What I was asking was "what are the acceptable 'atemi's' that I can use in say an average dojo nowadays without having to face the ire anc conform-pressure that is so easily generated when you don't "harmonize" in accordance with the accepted protocols? Punch? Side chop? Elbow? Slap? What? In a lot of dojo's I've been in, the only really accepted atemi was a stylized fake fist-punch during irimi on a few select techniques and I was wondering what else was out there.
Any principle will be interpreted differently in different dojo in different circumstances so perhaps the question is a red herring.

ATEMI is the gerund--"hitting"--for ATERU--"to hit". The elbow, the knee to the groin, etc. are hitting. Folks may not like that in their dojo, but it's a hard point to argue. What follows is that dojo's conventions. Caveat emptor.

More interestingly, Shioda does ATEMI with the UKE's contact on him. UKE's attack impacts and he/she is thrown back.

Also interesting are the iterations of ATEMI beyond the physical, the eye flick or shoulder flinch which affect UKE without contact. I enjoyed Angier setting a paper fan on the bridge of his UKE's nose, e.g.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 04-02-2005, 08:49 AM   #39
Mike Sigman
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Re: Punches

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Any principle will be interpreted differently in different dojo in different circumstances so perhaps the question is a red herring.
To atemi, or not to atemi, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The punches and grabs of outrageous technique;
Or to take swing at a sea of uke's,
And by blending, end them: to irimi, to tenkan
No more; and by a nikkyo, to say we end
The heart-ache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to; 'Tis a consumation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To pin in ikkyo,
To sankyo, perchance to Tsuki; Aye, there's the rub,
For in that use of atemi, what protests may come.
Quote:
Folks may not like that in their dojo, but it's a hard point to argue. What follows is that dojo's conventions. Caveat emptor.
True... and if you don't conform to the unspoken but rigid dojo protocols, you will be made to suffer. Ejected and dejected.
Quote:
More interestingly, Shioda does ATEMI with the UKE's contact on him. UKE's attack impacts and he/she is thrown back.
I was gratified to see Shioda to an OK shoulder strike in a randorii on a videoclip.
Quote:
Also interesting are the iterations of ATEMI beyond the physical, the eye flick or shoulder flinch which affect UKE without contact. I enjoyed Angier setting a paper fan on the bridge of his UKE's nose, e.g.
There is a discussion in Chinese martial arts about "Lin Kong Jin" which indicates an "empty force", i.e., a force that moves someone without touching. I asked Chen Xiao Wang (the head of Chen style, more or less) about it one day and he said it originally referred to a skill in deliberate movements, fakes, etc., that cause an opponent to move ... a form of control without touching. This term for an ancient skill has been corrupted to mean by the carnival types in martial arts a mental control of someone from a distance. Don't buy what they're selling.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 04-04-2005, 07:39 AM   #40
rob_liberti
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Re: Punches

Quote:
Jory Boling wrote:
Right on topic, we focused on what to do against a jab last night.
What did you do? I don't like to be at that range because I ismply cannot move my whole body as fast as someone can flck out their arm.

In my dojo, any atemi is a good atemi. The thing is that the rule of the dojo is to be level appropriate. At one point, there was a time when some dojos they didn't actually atemi, but instead would inform you that "you're open". I got such a kick out of that (not literally)! I prefer for the person to just start their atemi and show me. They just need to keep the same speed and intensity we were doing the waza at, and pull the punch or whatever the first couple times. Sometimes you can do something with the atemi, and sometimes you cannot and must change something else much earlier. I think that's much better training.

I feel that every basic wasa has at least one point there there must be a choice to not hit the uke. I would love for someone to list their favorite choicess of targets (that they are not striking) when doing basic waza. One of my friends who is really good at striking, threw someone, and did 3 amazingly fast punches at them while they were in the air. (He made sure not to really hit them, but he was clearly aiming and choing not to make connection. That was awesome.)

Rob
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Old 04-04-2005, 07:56 AM   #41
Jory Boling
 
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Re: Punches

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
What did you do? I don't like to be at that range because I ismply cannot move my whole body as fast as someone can flck out their arm.



Rob
i can't move that fast either so i was having some difficulty, but it was important to enter as the arm was withdrawn. well that was second in importance to getting offline the jab.

it was some sort of entering offline the jab and "cutting" down on or near their elbow to their center as their arm was being pulled back in. he pointed out that while the end of their arm can be very hard to find (their fists) , it's easier to find their elbow.

did any of that make sense?

Jory
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