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Old 03-22-2005, 10:00 AM   #51
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Where is Rev. Sensei Kensho Furuya when we need him?
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Old 03-22-2005, 10:30 AM   #52
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Tex.
Hey Granola, I'm actually from Jersey.
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Old 03-22-2005, 10:44 AM   #53
Casey Martinson
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Mike,
Following your mode of reduction, I could also say that there is no such thing as the color green; it's really just a specific frequency of visible electromagnetic radiation. And for that matter, it's not even that specific, because where do you draw the line between green and blue? I could call it the color HonkiDonk if I wanted to. Or you could just say, there are only three primary colors, yellow, green, and magenta, and anything else is just a variation on those three. Imagine, we could look through a clothing catalogue, and instead of "Mulberry" and "Sunset Orange", the colors could just be listed as different proportions of the primary three: "Magenta 23%, Green 37%, Yellow, 40%"

However, "green," "orange," and "centrifugal force" are terms representing loosely defined phenomenon that commonly occur, and as such, they may have some value as signifiers understood by a general population.

Now, what was the original question? I don't know if there even was one. Bill just observed that there was a physical explanation for things that some people think of as "mystical." Yeah...so? I'm guessing this is a continuation of the Equitable thread, which I didn't read. But the resulting debate here was fun.

-casey
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Old 03-22-2005, 10:57 AM   #54
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
So when an opponent grabs my wrist, I enter while turning (that's the tenkan) and I must manifest this basic kokyu force of Aikido into a direction that suitably begins the lead-into-technique. The lead into the technique of kote gaeshi involves you forming the kokyu force into one direction, up, then over (every bit of the movement is powered by kokyu force). It often looks like a sudden, straight technique but if you analyze the directional changes the kokyu forces go through (if you did it correctly), those forces make a circle. You may have included another circle horizontally (here's your beloved centrifugal force ), but the leading force you use to effect putting your partner into a centrifugal arc is also part of the kokyu power you must manifest throughout the technique.
I can follow this much. What you seem to call kokyu here is what I feel as a mix of Alignment, weight, balance, er.. the "apparent power" from Uke pushing against the ground through me and back through .. How does this relate to breath and intention is what I'd like to ask you, because that is what kokyu implies to me as well.

I guess I can understand Tenkan as being indepent of the application of force; since sometimes you can enter and turn behind and drop uke without the "apparent power" but by "removing the structural support" . I just wish I could get the labels right so I understood what other people are talking about.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 03-22-2005, 11:05 AM   #55
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So in the example of a same-side wrist grab to kote gaeshi, how about giving us some idea of your forces, Rob?
Why?
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Old 03-22-2005, 11:08 AM   #56
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

From the Yoseikan perspective... huh! What is "Tenkan" ??? Just kidding

Dominic
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Old 03-22-2005, 11:11 AM   #57
Mike Sigman
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote:
Where is Rev. Sensei Kensho Furuya when we need him?
So you're going to turn to him, are you?

Mike
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Old 03-22-2005, 11:27 AM   #58
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Ai symbol Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote:
I am not a physics student or an engineer, so I'm not going to get too hung up on the semantics. Whether it's centrifugal or centripetal, etc. is not of primary interest to me.

Example: When I pivot (I'm Yoshinkan) and enter into Kote Gaeshi, I can feel some extra energy forming as my center of gravity nears uke's. I have been visualizing this energy concentrating and being released again as I bring uke around and I feel that this has improved my performance. To me, it now feels more like I am pulling uke back into the wrist return like a yo yo. It's a very subtle thing, but also it feels very powerful.

I'm interested in the physics involved, because if I can understand it and apply it more effectively, I think IT's the extra power (that appears to be present beyond the exertion of normal human strength).

IMHO, O-Sensei was equally as clever as Einstein and Hawking- He was able to perceive and utilize the forces of nature, but he explained it and applied it in a different way. If anything gave him 'his power', this was it.

My view is that all the major waza owe their effectiveness to their exploitation of the various natural forces. This seems to fit the definition of Ai Ki Do.
Hi all, I don't post on here much but what Bill said struck a chord and I hope I can explain my viewpoint on it. I'm an engineering technician by day, so have some Physics and Math knowledge.

I think the "thing we feel" in Aikido that we call ki or energy resides in the redirection of uke's force, and us putting a force on uke he cannot resist. For instance, you can put a thousand pounds of weight on a table and it will hold. That table is made to hold weight placed on it, yet it takes only 20 pounds of force or so to move it sideways. I believe what we do in aikido is similar. We don't hold the weight up (directly resist uke), but we move the table (redirect his energy). If someone is running in a straight line and you give them a major shove into their side as they go by, odds are they'll have to move sideways. Similarly, if they run at you and you give them the same shove, odds are you'll be trampled.

Yes, these are grossly oversimplified examples, but for this instance they illustrate the point I'm hoping to make. I think we are inherently aware of how much force it takes to move things, whether it be knocking uke to the ground, punching, etc., and aikido teaches us to redirect uke's momentum and apply force perpendicularly to his "force vector". Because he has no force to resist along this vector, it takes just a little of shite's force to control a lot of uke's force. I think the mysticism comes from the realization you're doing a LOT of perceived work with just a little effort.

Thank you for reading, I hope I made a valuable contribution for someone.

Don
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Old 03-22-2005, 11:47 AM   #59
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote:
I can follow this much. What you seem to call kokyu here is what I feel as a mix of Alignment, weight, balance, er.. the "apparent power" from Uke pushing against the ground through me and back through .. How does this relate to breath and intention is what I'd like to ask you, because that is what kokyu implies to me as well.
Literally kokyu is "breath" power and there is a sense of timing, but idiomatically it implies an innate power. Your idea of kokyu as a mix of alignment, weight, balance, and other things is sort of where I imagine the split may be between what Tohei is saying and what Shioda is saying and which Aikikai seems to have varying takes on. It reminds me of some of the discussions about "rooting" that goes on in the Chinese martial arts community... although a lot of people use the word, their varying takes on it can be stunningly different when you meet them in person; yet they can usually use their take on it to resist a push, to some degree, so they argue they are correct.

The power I'm talking about is something that I can manifest anywhere on my body and even move it around my body or use it to power my movements... all while standing still and not changing alignment, weight, balance, etc. Yet, someone can go through the alignment, weight, balance, etc., door and arrive there after a while, if they focus on relaxing and think about every movement. That's roughly how I see the difference between what Shioda says in his books and what Tohei says in his books, if it makes sense to you.

I'd recommend Tohei's old book, "This is Aikido" with his pretty clear pictures of the Aiki Taiso, although he calls them "Aikido Calisthenics". Tohei's "tests" that he shows are really all about doing what I mentioned above. It could be described as "bringing the one point to any point you want it" or it could be described as "bringing paths of power to where you want them" or "using paths of power to effect your movements or tasks". One of the Taiso that Tohei shows is actually what I would call "Tenkan Undo", but he calls it "kokyu-ho undo", which is technically exactly what I described it as in my lengthier post, earlier, when I was talking about keeping kokyu power through every bit of the motion. What I should have made clearer, I think, is that I bring the power to the wrist/hand which uke grabs.... i.e., my seika no tanden is at that point when I want it there.

The idea of moving these forces is the core of Aikido techniques, as I mentioned. It's like you're controlling a little mini-universe inside yourself and you use this power to "kokyu ho" or to "harmonize" with an opponent. The idea of using these mind-manipulated powers to control engagement with others is widespread in martial and philosophical arts in Asia and is considered sort of a universal or "natural" truth of some magnitude. Shioda's way, the way I sort of imagine you may be using also, is one way in the door. Tohei's way is another way in the door, but Shioda's has more surety to it... although it's not guaranteed by any means. But... it's something to think about when you slowly examine movement.
Quote:
I guess I can understand Tenkan as being indepent of the application of force; since sometimes you can enter and turn behind and drop uke without the "apparent power" but by "removing the structural support" . I just wish I could get the labels right so I understood what other people are talking about.
This thing about what Tenkan is sort of boggles my mind. I used to read every book I could get my hand on and go to every seminar that was within range... the idea that tenkan is a method of entry and getting off the line of attack was, I thought, pretty basic and universally understood. Just the fact that "tenkan" is used not only for "centrifugal force" throws and for reversal/kokyu throws that have no centrifugal force is enough to tell most people, I thought, what the definition of "tenkan" was.

Again, thanks for posting that translation. It made me feel like my research into Aikido roots was worthwhile.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-22-2005, 12:31 PM   #60
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

De nada :-) maybe someone is upset about that, but I do believe in the open exchange of ideas.
There are other of these conditioning exercises that we used to do more of until some time ago. My teacher told me once she was not comfortable doing them anymore since she didn't felt she "owned" them (That after she caught me teaching them to the beginners class :-) ) I understand those exercises are part of Hikitsuchi sensei's tradition, out of Shingu. I would guess that the rev. Koichi Barrish in Washington would probably know more details on the subject.

On Tenkan, it's always been about entering and turning as far as I've been taught. The only strange thing about tenkan in my school is that it's always stressed to be a forward motion even when going back...

PS - thanks for very interesting discussions on these forums.

Last edited by Alfonso : 03-22-2005 at 12:44 PM.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 03-22-2005, 01:52 PM   #61
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Sayu Nage? I know there is an exercise in Tohei's book called sayu undo, but I have never seen it listed as sayu nage (kokyu nage yes).
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Old 03-22-2005, 01:55 PM   #62
Mike Sigman
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote:
(snip) I understand those exercises are part of Hikitsuchi sensei's tradition, out of Shingu. I would guess that the rev. Koichi Barrish in Washington would probably know more details on the subject.
Great! Thanks for the pointer. I'll try to get in touch with Barrish Sensei or visit him. I know some friends of his.
Quote:
thanks for very interesting discussions on these forums.
My pleasure. I like the nuts and bolts things.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:00 PM   #63
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So you're going to turn to [Rev. Sensei Kensho Furuya], are you?
Yep! If only I could He doesn't hang around here any more.

Other than valuing his spiritual counsel, He has some of the most beautiful and effortless redirection I've seen. Whether he perfectly understands the physics and conciously formulates his randori moves, I don't know. But he has a marvelous knack of manipulating the force and (I don't know exactly, either) gravity affecting uke's direction and stability.

As another interesting exercise, I wouldn't mind hearing the actual physics experts opinions what they feel the dominant or central force of physics is at work in each of the various waza.

Example: Irimi Nage's power relies on such and such. Shiho Nage, maybe leverage?

Also, how close does anyone feel science is to explaining Ki/Chi/Kokyu power, etc?
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:00 PM   #64
Mike Sigman
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Sayu Nage? I know there is an exercise in Tohei's book called sayu undo, but I have never seen it listed as sayu nage (kokyu nage yes).
Hmmmmm.... doing a quick Google on "Sayu Nage" I get 22 hits, John. I agree that you don't hear the term all that much, but it's legitimate. Different dojo's will call a certain throw different names, many times. It is a kokyu throw, I'd concur, but it's a difficult one for a lot of people because they can't bring their full weight to their arms without a lot of practice.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:04 PM   #65
Mike Sigman
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote:
As another interesting exercise, I wouldn't mind hearing the actual physics experts opinions what they feel the dominant or central force of physics is at work in each of the various waza.

Example: Irimi Nage's power relies on such and such. Shiho Nage, maybe leverage?

Also, how close does anyone feel science is to explaining Ki/Chi/Kokyu power, etc?
One of the best books for discussing the forces involved in a lot of throws is "Total Aikido" by Gozo Shioda, translated by David Rubens. If I could only have 3 Aikido books, it would be maybe my first choice.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:22 PM   #66
Brion Toss
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hoisted by your own petard, Brion. Do you see the word "apparent"? I.e., centrifugal force is not a real force.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Let me get this straight: you are saying that the word "apparent" disqualifies centrifugal force as "real"? So an apparent diameter (The angle subtended by the diameter of a celestial body as seen from the center of the earth, expressed in angular units) is a mere chimera, an apparent easement (An easement which involves in its nature, or as a means of its enjoyment, or the like, some permanent visible sign of its existence...) is a useless fiction, and apparent wind ((The wind as observed aboard a moving vessel, being the vectorial combination of the true wind and the wind due to the ship's motion) is a fantasy of no concern to sailors. And so on.
There are other ways to express what is commonly called "centrifugal force" (you have done so), ways that can be more precise, and more useful in calculations. I am not contesting this. What I would like is for adequately precise (perhaps as determined by some agreed-upon source; the above are from Merriam-Webster's 2nd Unabridged, for instance) terms to be accepted for the sake of having a conversation, without suffering pointless cavils that derail said conversation.
Although, in the spirit of pointless cavils, I would like to point out that the expression is "Hoist with your own petard", not "Hoisted by."
Yours,
Brion Toss
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:33 PM   #67
Brion Toss
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
OK, I see where you're coming from, but I think you're missing the point. When you "pivot", that's the tenkan, which has the point of moving out of the line of attack and placing your body in a position to go somewhat with the attack ("aiki"). As you begin to "lead", in the technique you're mentioning, you are indeed making use of "centrifugal force".... that's what you're saying. I don't have a problem with that, but as you lead into a technique (the lead into kote gaeshi, in this example), you are already past the tenkan. That's why I pointed out that a tenkan can just as easily lead into a kokyu throw as into a throw that uses "centrifugal force". The tenkan is the turn that initially allows you to avoid the line of attack... all else is the lead and then the technique. Even if I choose to go into Sayu Nage at that point there is a slight lead/entry (not really involving centrifugal force) into an off-balance direction and then the consummation of technique. But the tenkan was the "pivot" that took me off the line of attack, Bill, not the lead or the actual technique.

Insofar as the physics goes, you can see that it's not the centrifugal force.... however, the physics is indeed interesting. Tohei actually does a pretty good job of trying to explain the application of forces through his Ki paradigm, but he's not clear enough so that it's obvious what he's saying. The essential "force" in Aikido that is always spoken of in relation to "Ki" is the force of "kokyu ryoku", or "jin" (sometimes spelled "jing") in Chinese. It's the resisting force that Tohei exhibits when he is standing on one leg (or both legs, or lying down, or from behind, etc.... you can manifest this one force in any direction, but it's too complicated for this post).

The main idea is that you can manifest this force at will in the direction you want it to be in. For example, if someone pushes against my chest, I may want to manifest this kokyu force at my chest so he can't push me over, thereby impressing onlookers. In real Aikido, of course, we would never deliberately resist the force, but would immediately move offline or go immediately with the force and begin a technique into a direction where the pusher has no power (there are a number of these). BTW, please forgive the pedantry... I actually have a point I'm working toward.

So when an opponent grabs my wrist, I enter while turning (that's the tenkan) and I must manifest this basic kokyu force of Aikido into a direction that suitably begins the lead-into-technique. The lead into the technique of kote gaeshi involves you forming the kokyu force into one direction, up, then over (every bit of the movement is powered by kokyu force). It often looks like a sudden, straight technique but if you analyze the directional changes the kokyu forces go through (if you did it correctly), those forces make a circle. You may have included another circle horizontally (here's your beloved centrifugal force ), but the leading force you use to effect putting your partner into a centrifugal arc is also part of the kokyu power you must manifest throughout the technique.

In other words, the importance of entry and technique is just as much your ability to manifest kokyu power in relation to the opponent as it's important to do the technique. This is true of ALL techniques involving Ki/Kokyu as O-Sensei, Tohei, et al mean it, and it is considered quite different from the normal use of strength and just "technique" involving centrifugal force. Most people practicing Aikido use normal force and focus on "technique" while never developing useable kokyu force throughout all directions of movement. The Aiki Taiso at the beginnings of classes are originally meant to warm you up in the use of kokyu power throughout the entire range of various movements.

The lead into Sayu Nage (as another example) from tenkan is the same universal idea... you move off-line, immediately match your "ki" to the opponent's grab as you begin the "lead" of up and over (another circle!!!) with your kokyu power, driven by your hips and hara (the hara actually controls the direction of the kokyu force).

That's more the intriguing part of the physics, IMO, Bill.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Hi,
I like that. I really like that. Thank you for an information-rich posting, Mike.
Yours,
Brion Toss
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:38 PM   #68
Mike Sigman
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Brion Toss wrote:
Although, in the spirit of pointless cavils, I would like to point out that the expression is "Hoist with your own petard", not "Hoisted by.
I actually debated with myself which version to use, so I did a quick Google and found out that it appears to be more stylish to say "hoisted" nowadays, though you're right about the original word. I can't win.

Mike
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:39 PM   #69
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Brion Toss wrote:
I like that. I really like that. Thank you for an information-rich posting,
My pleasure, if it's at all helpful.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-22-2005, 06:41 PM   #70
eyrie
 
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Literally kokyu is "breath" power and there is a sense of timing, but idiomatically it implies an innate power. ...The power I'm talking about is something that I can manifest anywhere on my body and even move it around my body or use it to power my movements... all while standing still and not changing alignment, weight, balance, etc. Yet, someone can go through the alignment, weight, balance, etc., door and arrive there after a while, if they focus on relaxing and think about every movement....
The idea of moving these forces is the core of Aikido techniques, as I mentioned. It's like you're controlling a little mini-universe inside yourself and you use this power to "kokyu ho" or to "harmonize" with an opponent....

The idea of using these mind-manipulated powers to control engagement with others is widespread in martial and philosophical arts in Asia and is considered sort of a universal or "natural" truth of some magnitude....
I remember reading about this IMA guy called Mike Sigman in BlackBelt Magazine and Inside Kungfu back in the late 80's... I'm hoping it is the same Mike Sigman....

For someone who claims to have "no credentials" in Aikido, sure knows a lot more about the fundamental principles of Aikido than a lot of people who actually do aikido.

Glad to have you around Mike!

Ignatius
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Old 03-22-2005, 07:10 PM   #71
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I remember reading about this IMA guy called Mike Sigman in BlackBelt Magazine and Inside Kungfu back in the late 80's.
I admit nothing and I'll try to pay back the money.

Mike
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Old 03-23-2005, 01:44 PM   #72
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Hi all-
this is turning out to be a most interesting thread. Thanks to all of you for contributing good images, info, and feedback without (for the most part) grandstanding.

-LK
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Old 03-24-2005, 07:19 AM   #73
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

One thing I noticed that's very different between Japanese and Chinese martial arts, is that in Kung Fu (at least Shao Lama KF) you disengage contact between many attacks and defenses in rapid series, where in Aikido, you maintain contact with uke throughout a technique.

Interestingly, when disengaged from your opponent in KF, you don't lose as much feedback as you'd think. Somehow you maintain some spatial awareness or something as a result of being "in the personal space" of your partner. As usual, I'm not quite able to articulate this, but I know Mike S. is going to come along and do it for me if I get him started.

I miss Chi Sao!

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 03-24-2005 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 03-24-2005, 07:28 AM   #74
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote:
One thing I noticed that's very different between Japanese and Chinese martial arts, is that in Kung Fu (at least Shao Lama KF) you disengage contact between many attacks and defenses in rapid series, where in Aikido, you maintain contact with uke until the very end of the tech.
You can mentally substitute the words "martial arts" for "kung fu", Bill... it's a generic term, at best. "Wu Shu" is what the Chinese say, but if you want to be specific, the "martial arts forms competitions" are "contemporary wu shu" and the actual martial arts are "traditional wu shu". There are a large number of different martial arts in China, each with different strategies and techniques, so there is no way to group what all Chinese martial arts do in one phrase like you did. It's like saying "In Japanese martial arts they wear black culottes.

Mike
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Old 03-24-2005, 07:53 AM   #75
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force

Yes, rather than giving Shao Lama as an example, I'm sure I should've said "in my personal experience", or some other caveat. But what I was meaning to bring up is how virtual contact and awareness is maintained even when actual contact is broken between movements. Chi sao practice was prescibed for me to enhance my ability to know where my opponent's arms, legs, hands, feet and point of balance are.

I understand that internal energy is also something that is developed this way, but I think that was at a higher level than I was training at. The Sifu, Terry Wright-Lee, was only in our area for about two years.
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