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Old 03-14-2005, 08:14 PM   #1
L. Camejo
 
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Exclamation Another Video Prison Attack.

[Editor's note: the following page links to a video containing some graphic violence and strong language. Please be warned.]

(((Hi Jun - I learnt the last time ))))

Hi Folks,

Another video for your insights, thoughts and responses. This one was of a Prisons Guard who got caught "off guard" (shameless pun I know).

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=P...aten-by-Inmate

Any thoughts, pearls of wisdom?
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 03-14-2005, 09:50 PM   #2
xuzen
 
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

L mon,

I noticed that the guard still remain conscious and 'operational' after such a beating. I also noticed he regain his composure rather quickly after the beatings, Kudos to him. And on top of that, the guard was good sport i.e., he did not retaliate like a mad revengeful soul but let his mates took care of it and let the law address the issue. I think he was a real gentlement.

The guard was caught off guard, he was basically ambushed. There wasn't anytime to react and be the MA that we all are accustomed to. My advise is just to bring your arms up to the face and protect it as much as possible; crouch and use your leg/knees to protect the lower part of the body (when on the foor). And when you sense any opening, then counter and unleash hell.

P/s Peeper spray did not stop the attacker.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 03-14-2005, 11:14 PM   #3
willy_lee
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
I noticed that the guard still remain conscious and 'operational' after such a beating.
Tough guy -- also bigger than the prisoner.
Quote:
I also noticed he regain his composure rather quickly after the beatings, Kudos to him.
Not sure about composure, but he was able to stand, that's good.
Quote:
And on top of that, the guard was good sport i.e., he did not retaliate like a mad revengeful soul but let his mates took care of it and let the law address the issue. I think he was a real gentlement.
I wouldn't go that far, he was still obviously recovering his wits. Give him another 30 sec to get his breath back and shake the cobwebs out of his head (and pepper spray to disperse from hallway between them), then see whether he is a gentleman...
Quote:
The guard was caught off guard, he was basically ambushed. There wasn't anytime to react and be the MA that we all are accustomed to. My advise is just to bring your arms up to the face and protect it as much as possible; crouch and use your leg/knees to protect the lower part of the body (when on the foor). And when you sense any opening, then counter and unleash hell.
Using guard might have helped once it went to the ground. Note how the guard gives up his back under the barrage of blows; textbook. Good thing no weapons were involved. One can't sense an opening to counter when one is desperately turtled like that under a never-ending barrage.
Quote:
P/s Peeper spray did not stop the attacker.
Immediately... but it did seem to give him pause after a few seconds (looked like he slipped and almost fell down). The pepper spray in the confined corridor -- seems pretty nasty. Explains why the rescuers stood back and had the prisoner come to them?

Interesting video.
=wl

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Old 03-15-2005, 02:09 AM   #4
Rupert Atkinson
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

Right at the, the commentator says the guards arrived "just in time." Out of curiosity, I counted the punches and got about 54 hard ones, most of which landed. The prison guard got in only one feeble attempt at punch.

Methinks prison guards could do with a bit more training - all he did was try to escape, yet there was no escape. There was little physical fight-back in him at all except to go for his pepper spray - maybe he was thinking he might be sued! The attacker's punches were obviously not that effective but the ferrocity! If it had continued he might have beaten the poor guy to death. Still, I wonder why he attacked him - maybe the guard was completely innocent, or maybe there were other issues.

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Old 03-15-2005, 03:33 AM   #5
mj
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

Firstly the story is rubbish.

3am? Every prisoner would be locked up.

2ndly the guy had an incredible amount of energy so he was probably drugged up - note the way the pepper spray had no immediate effect, so punching him back isn't going to hurt him if pepper spray doesn't.

3rdly the guard's defence...what a shambles. Grabbing the waist is a 2 person controlling technique...he should have at least tied up the right arm at the shoulder on the ground to stop those dampen those haymakers and allowing him to tie up a leg so there was a lot less leverage for the attacks.

However, ignoring these deficiencies, the guard protected himself reasonably well under the circumstances. Someone with less presence of mind would not have been able to turn/avoid/soak up such punishment and may have been killed.

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Old 03-15-2005, 04:24 AM   #6
Amir Krause
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

I believe there are a few things to learn from both this video and the previous one (Pizza Parlor):
1) It is very difficult to react after the first punch has landed.
2) Attackers will try and strike as fast as they can. If you provide a target - they will take it.
3) Predatory attacks are likely to when the initiator feels his victim is not ready.
4) Most attackers will likely lack training, but will have an abundance of ferocity to cover it.


How should one prepare for such attacks?
It seems the first response is the key for a successful defense. Therefore, one must learn to raise his situational awareness, and be very sensitive to any hint of incoming violence. You must not relay on social concepts or authority, as a preventative measure.
Being ready should mean that once the level of tension rises, you should regard your mae and placement, giving you a chance to sense an attack and respond to it. One should move and catch the center with his arms, as if a fight is imminent. Being sensitive should mean for accomplished Martial Artist to perceive the strike before it's actual start, and to more common people, to perceive the attack as it starts, rather then lands.
Obviously, the problem is how to do this and deescalate the tension, I am afraid this calls for better men then me, and to be willing to take some risk and use a mental kuzushi on the would be attacker, balance is essential to any attack and it is possible to diffuse a situation by proper imbalancing of the other person, this can only be thought of on a state by state and I feel inadequate to suggest how.


Amir
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Old 03-15-2005, 03:04 PM   #7
jester
 
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

This is a perfect example for the need to cross train. If the guard knew some remedial BJJ or NHB fighting, he would at least be able to clinch to avoid the punches, and be able to move more effectively on the ground.

As far as prepare for the attack, the guard should always be prepared. That's his job. You as a martial artist should always be prepared.

Someone commented that "There wasn't anytime to react and be the MA that we all are accustomed to."

The guard knew what was about to happen, and even brought his hands up and backed up. I'll say it again, you fight like you train.

Your training should give you an instinctual reaction. I've been surprised numerous times and I always react the same way. I don't think about it, it is just there.

It's like hitting the breaks in your car before you realize what's going on. Fighting has to be automatic.

The video ended to early. I think the guards would have kicked the $H!7 out of him in another room.

Amir was correct when he said "one must learn to raise his situational awareness, and be very sensitive to any hint of incoming violence".
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Old 03-15-2005, 03:48 PM   #8
John Boswell
 
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

Shiho-nage.

The first punch didn't do jack and the second was way outside... sloppy yoko strike. There was room enough to do a shihonage take down and he could have pinned the guy, cuffed him and ended it right there.

But no. The guard proved to himself and the world that he knows NOTHING about martial arts. ANY kind of martial arts. I dunno what night school he went to to get his "license" or whatever you need to be a security guard, but he needs to ask for his money back and go back to working at UPS or somewhere less violent.

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Old 03-15-2005, 04:08 PM   #9
Talon
 
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

The way this fight starts, Id' say there is alot the guard could have done if he was trained. The prisoners hands were not all that fast and appeared to be within reach for a number of techniques to be perfomred. Stepping offline would have been the primary thing in my oppinion and then grabbing a hold of one of the hands. This type of attack looks like a typical common attack one should expect in the real world.
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Old 03-16-2005, 11:12 AM   #10
Michael Hackett
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

John - Pretty harsh, but somewhat accurate nonetheless. Most law enforcement officers and correctional officers receive very little martial arts/defensive tactics/fighting/whateveryouwannacallit training. Even in Texas, currently a national leader in officer training, the amount of time spent on defensive tactics is very minimal in the academy. After graduation, most officers receive a few hours of refresher training in DT every few years. Unless the officer chooses to pursue additional training on his own time and at his own expense, he will only receive what the department provides him - and as I've said on these forum threads before, it isn't sufficient.

In most states the training curriculum is determined by an appointed board or commission at the state level, often by members who have never walked a beat or jail corridor. Could this officer have done better? Sure. Did he perform to the level of his training. Probably. This guy was victim of more than an assault - he's also the victim of a bottom line mentality of his agency and jurisdiction. I'm just glad he made it home at the end of his shift.

Michael
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:42 PM   #11
John Boswell
 
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

Good point, Michael. And yes, I was harsh... but with good reason: the video.

When you make it your occupation to handle rough characters who are being locked up for breaking the law... you gotta understand that you are putting your life on the line. Granted, not all are "hardened criminals" but you are putting yourself in line to run into those kinds of people. AND... if you're going to do that to yourself, you owe it to yourself and your family/friends to bone up on the knowledge that will save your life. You can't count on the training that is a minimum for the job to bring you through it. You have to take initiative and take care of # 1.

If further training is just a choice, that's one piece of legistlation that needs to change. Cops and security guards should be required to continue their martial arts instruction in anyway they see fit... but as it is their business to know this stuff... they should be required to learn it.

2 bits.

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Old 03-16-2005, 02:02 PM   #12
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

You know, I never understand this argument of "lack of training"--particularly from martial artists.

If you only practice during class, where does that get you? Not very far. When your Sensei corrects some minor detail of your technique, do you say I'll get it right next time and wait for the next time you're in front of him/her to try it again? Or do you go home and spend an hour working on it?

Law enforcement officers have enough physical training--it's up to them to go home and practice it with their cronies.

As far as the attack goes, COME ON!! His hands were up, that means he could see it coming. His hands were up, he could of just deflected the strikes.
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Old 03-16-2005, 02:52 PM   #13
John Boswell
 
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
You know, I never understand this argument of "lack of training"--particularly from martial artists.

Law enforcement officers have enough physical training--it's up to them to go home and practice it with their cronies.

As far as the attack goes, COME ON!! His hands were up, that means he could see it coming. His hands were up, he could of just deflected the strikes.
No, no.
No, no, no.

Police officers are required to train X amount of hours in self-defense tactics.
Security guards are required to train Z amount of hours.

The argument that there is a "lack of training" means that X hours and Z hours are NOT ENOUGH! You think it is up to them to go home and practice? You think accountants go home at night and sit there on a 10 key calculator and "practice?" You think secretaries go home at night and type just to "practice?" The answer is No and No. SOME will practice... the majority will not. And when it comes to DEFENDING your SELF... and not only your job depends on it, but your LIFE, don't you think they SHOULD be required to go home and practice?

I do.

You say his hands were up and he should have deflected the attack. Guess what, he couldn't because he didn't know HOW to or that he even should be.

All of this = Lack of Training.

It really is that simple.

I tell ya, if I were a cop and had say... 200 hours of self defense training... 20 hours a week for 10 weeks.. I'd sure feel like someone that was going to get his butt handed to him down the road. I really would. And I think that 200 hour number is being generous...

And if there is a police officer out there, I'd really like to hear what they have to say on this: how many hours did you train at the acadamy? What are your thoughts on this subject?

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Old 03-16-2005, 03:17 PM   #14
Adam Alexander
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
The argument that there is a "lack of training" means that X hours and Z hours are NOT ENOUGH! You think it is up to them to go home and practice? You think accountants go home at night and sit there on a 10 key calculator and "practice?" You think secretaries go home at night and type just to "practice?" The answer is No and No. SOME will practice... the majority will not. And when it comes to DEFENDING your SELF... and not only your job depends on it, but your LIFE, don't you think they SHOULD be required to go home and practice?
[b]
I do
I think people who want to be at their best, in their field, go home and work on their respective technique.

With every job I've ever had, I've studied after work to get better because I knew that that was best for me.

As far as the "guard not having training," I'm sure he learned how to deflect a strike in his forty hour course (atleast that's what's required around here).

I think we've just got a different philosophy. I believe that people should spend time developing their work skills outside of work so that they can do what's expected of them. I think you believe that training is a part of work.

We can disagree. But I sure wish people who believe that public sector employees should be treated so much better than private sector employees would be the only one's responsible for covering the price.

BTW. cops pay for their own training. if they're not getting what they need, maybe they should opt for different training.
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Old 03-16-2005, 03:48 PM   #15
John Boswell
 
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

Jean,

We are pretty much saying the same thing, just in different ways.

Where we differ, is you think that "people" are like you and would take time out of their personal time to better themselves for reasons of being better at work. I agree! Makes sense to me. I do it. I read up and study my occupation (real estate) all the time. I think EVERYONE should do that.

Problem is: few people ever do. Cops pay for their own training? Perhaps, but I know police officers are often times given discounts as well. Personally, when I start to teach aikido, odds of me teaching police for free will be very high. The only reason I wouldn't is if my sensei said not to. And that is when I would argue with him. Then the next problem will be getting the officers to come train during their time off... whether its for free or for a discount.

I'm sure the guard in the video trained in how to deflect an attack too. So... why didn't he? Because he doesn't make training a part of his life. Even just a couple hours a week is better than nothing. And NOTHING is what I saw from that guard in the video.

You said:
Quote:
I believe that people should spend time developing their work skills outside of work so that they can do what's expected of them.
I agree 100%. Now let's run a survey and find out how many guards and police officers actually do that. I think the numbers will be very bad.

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Old 03-16-2005, 06:09 PM   #16
Michael Hackett
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

John and Jean, you are both right. I was shown a bunch of techniques in the basic academy and remembered three or four that worked well for me. I used them all the time and practiced them as well over the next thirty plus years. A lot of the practice came when I was showing them to new officers as trainees when they first hit the field.

With rotating shift work it is sometimes quite difficult to work out a MA training schedule, if your community has a dojo close. Some are able to do it and some aren't. Some work out and stay in shape and some don't.

Most of the refresher training that officers get, both outside and inside correctional facilities deals with the "flavor of the month" or with High Risk/Low Incidence events. For example, one year our training was mandated for us to have eight hours of training (out of 24) in dealing with elder abuse. The rest of that training schedule dealt with firearms training.

I agree that officers should seek out the training to keep them competent at "hand-to-hand" types of events, although those are actually pretty infrequent in most agencies. I did and it paid off for me. I tried to instill that same practice in my subordinates over the years and it stuck with a few. You are both correct in your assessment, but you should understand some of the competing requirements and practices faced by officers across the country.

Yeah, he got whipped and could have avoided it. Glad he survived and maybe some of his fellow officers have learned something from it.

Just my two cents worth.

Michael
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Old 03-17-2005, 12:19 PM   #17
Adam Alexander
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

John, apparently we do agree. I misinterpreted the phrase "should get more training" to mean they should be given (by the gov.) more training--instead of, as I would phrase it, get off their rears to "get" it.

Micheal, when you say,"You are both correct in your assessment, but you should understand some of the competing requirements and practices faced by officers across the country," I don't understand that. As an outsider looking in, every profession has high demands. Why would I be more lenient in my views when applied to law enforcement?

It seems to me, again, as an outsider looking in, that a person going in to that field should expect to have a lot of demands.
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Old 03-17-2005, 04:02 PM   #18
Michael Hackett
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

Jean,

What I meant by that is that officers are expected (by most departments today) to pursue formal education. In order to advance, officers need a BA or higher, particularly out here on the west coast. When you combine that with the formal training in specific subject areas, rotating shifts, a high rate of overtime work, and families, some find it difficult to do much else. The combat arts, so to speak, just aren't that important to law enforcement administrators. While I continue to disagree with that position, it is the reality of policing.

Right now the major trend is to develop technology that allows an officer to subdue a subject without putting hands on him. You've seen the Taser weapons on TV and they are currently developing alternative light sources that disorient a subject and even a spider web that can be fired from a shotgun to capture a suspect. None of those will be all that effective in a bar brawl or domestic violence event however.

In my own experience, the only martial arts available to me was a "Cobra Kai" type karate dojo within a two hour drive of my home. Had there been aikido within a reasonable distance, I would have found a way to train. I got by reasonably well by using my head and staying in good physical shape. Most crooks were done within 15 to 20 seconds and if you were fitter than that, you would ultimately gain control.

The demands of law enforcement are no higher than a lot of other professions - the major difference is that we are always on duty. You shouldn't be more lenient in your views at all. You should expect an officer to arrive where and when you need him and expect him to be capable of doing what's needed. Therein lies the rub; cops have to fight suspects every now and again, but the duties are so wide and varied that they have to be competent in many other fields as well. I've often heard it said that a good cop knows a little bit about almost everything.

Ego plays a big part too. The uniform and equipment sends a message in itself that keeps most events from going physical. Your command presence and appearance will get you by time and time again, and its only when you're sliding across the room on your backside that you think you could have used more training.

A last piece of the puzzle is worker's compensation and the Fair Labor Standards Act. I've seen a number of cases where the officer was injured during his off duty training and received W/C benefits. I've also seen cases where an officer sued for overtime payments for his off duty training because he was doing it to improve his job performance. Those cases have made many law enforcement administrators reluctant to set up programs or even recommend off duty training.

I guess, in summary, don't expect the cop who shows up at your door to be Superman. He or she may be a highly skilled martial artist, or may well be just another human being. If you happen to meet one of them, invite them to visit your dojo - it might be infectious.

Michael
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Old 03-18-2005, 06:41 AM   #19
ian
 
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

I only managed to catch the first few moments. An outsider can never be a true judge of a fight situation as there is so much going on. However, it was very noticeable that the guard backed off as the attack was initiated. He did see it coming, and tried to back away. He should have been immediately alot more aggressive and dominant in the fight. Once you are struck you loose the initiative very quickly. I do believe aikido training is about Nage being dominant from even before the attack is initiated.
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Old 03-18-2005, 08:57 AM   #20
JohnWertz
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

Pepper spray takes 10 to 15 seconds to BEGIN TO WORK., while it will make the eyes water and burn, if the attacker is contact with you, or you don't move off line. they are still likely to press whatever advantage they had.

It takes time for the carrier (which is water) to evaporate and leave the crystals on the skin. It also takes time for the body to register pain, evaluate it and react to it. Pepper spray's real effectiveness comes about when the crystals are inhaled, causing the airway to secrete copius amounts of mucus, making breathing difficult.

Situations like the one depicted on the tape are how fights happen. If you are training for defense, and don't practice for exactly this type of encounter, you do yourself a disservice.

Remember: Plus One, Plus Weapon!
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Old 03-18-2005, 09:44 AM   #21
Justin Gaar
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

What lacks common sense here is that... where were the other officers. I can't see if it was the guard that was beat or the inmate. I'm a little on the side about this one.
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Old 03-18-2005, 09:47 AM   #22
Justin Gaar
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

Quote:
2ndly the guy had an incredible amount of energy so he was probably drugged up - note the way the pepper spray had no immediate effect, so punching him back isn't going to hurt him if pepper spray doesn't.
Another thing is, if the guy was drugged, they would have used either chlorapromazine (thorazine) or halidol (don't know the name) These drugs are harsh anti-psychotic tranquilizers and i'm surprised (IF that was the drug used) that the guy had any energy. These drugs will have you on the ground in a cold, tired sweat. Wierd...
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Old 03-19-2005, 01:09 PM   #23
Adam Alexander
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

Michael Hackett,

That is a very fine post. Thanks for the inside perspective.
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Old 03-21-2005, 03:03 PM   #24
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

After the viewing the video several times, and reading some of the comments I have to add my own comments to this thread. I cannot comment from a Deputies point of view from the County Jail environment, but I can comment from a State Penitentiary view,

During the inital start of the video, which I viewed without sound if there was any. I noticed from the beginning the inmate appeared to be behind the Correctional Officer (Not Guard)

When escorting an inmate it is policy in most training academies that the officer escorts the inmate from at least 2-3 steps behind. As evident by the video that was not the case as the attack started from the lower left corner with the Officer standing on the right side.

As the inmate closed the distance, you will notice that the officer's brain began computing what was going on but it didn't hit home untill the first 2 punches landed. This officer in my opinion became complacent, because he broke one of the simplist rules when working behind the wire.

Those initial punches, though powerful were not as powerfull as the following 8-10 punches as the inmate had committed to attacking the Officer, which in turn will cause him (the inmate) to gather additional time on his sentence.

You can see that fear took over as the officer went for his "weapon" which was the can of OC spray right away, not toe to toe action just buckeled and went for the weapon. What some may not have noticed is the position the inmate put himself in (Battle Stance or Posted). His constant manipulating of the officer to maintain facial strikes, and his keeping the officer bent down and or to wall when he pummeled him with some very hard shots just prior to the other officers arriving on scene.

The inmate did that because he felt the officer still posed a threat because he wasn't knocked out, or was hitting his radio while trying to fend off the inmate calling for backup, then he got the OC out and did some sprays. Notice the short spurts from the can, once he (the officer) realized he had the can out and spraying he got one burst in longer the others.

The officer didnt attempt to redirect or "cam" the inmate but stayed directly to his front, allowing the inmate to close the distance with one step "plant himself" and start bombing away.

Several actions by the inmate lead me to believe what occured was ment to happen. In the prison system beat downs such as that are ment to send a message, while "shanking" someone is ment to prove a point. Had that inmate had been armed with a shank that officer would have been a casualty statistic.

As for the training of Officers. Some states have 540 hours worth of training, some states have less, a very very few have more.

Training in the Academy is focused on Laws, Corrections, Counseling "Verbal Judo", Inmate Manipulation, emergency responder techniques, Cell Searches, Weapons, Chemical Agents, and Defensive Tactics (DT).

What alot of officers fail to do is stay in shape, and go over a drill of how and what they will do when a certain situation happens.

That was extremely evident by what was viewed on the tape. Corretional Officers work the MOST dangerous beat of all. When behind the wire, most officers just walk around with a set of handcuffs, a radio, a set of gloves, and the mighty pen. Thats it.

On the road they have Dogs, PR24's, Handguns, Shotguns, OC Spray, and helicopters etc, and constant radio communication with batteries hooked up to car. In corrections you have motorolas plugged into a battery pack, that get cycled every 8 hours.

I'm not sure if anyone here has every worked in Prison, it's not an easy walk. ALOT of people can't cut the mustard and last 2 weeks.

What impressed me was the shots the officer took without getting knocked out. That guy got a jaw like a rock.

Last edited by shugyo_sha : 03-21-2005 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 03-21-2005, 04:31 PM   #25
jester
 
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Re: Another Video Prison Attack.

I would have shot him!
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