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Old 03-27-2005, 11:14 AM   #76
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

hmm....what I learned about ki testing was that you find your center....and trust your center. If you lose it, you just get it back. We were taught about correct feeling. When you feel you know what it is. Also no weight on your feet.
Mary
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Old 03-27-2005, 01:35 PM   #77
Mike Sigman
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
hmm....what I learned about ki testing was that you find your center....and trust your center. If you lose it, you just get it back. We were taught about correct feeling. When you feel you know what it is. Also no weight on your feet.
Mary
So, out of curiosity.... where do you put your weight if it isn't on your feet?

Mike
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Old 03-27-2005, 02:00 PM   #78
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So, out of curiosity.... where do you put your weight if it isn't on your feet?

Mike
You don't put it anywhere ...........you focus on your center
Mary
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Old 03-27-2005, 04:19 PM   #79
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
If you look at most of Tohei's "ki tests", you'll see that his weight is usually on the back leg or in between the feet but favoring the back leg. Most of that is because we do most of our techniques to the front, so there are exceptions to what I'm saying, but generally the static tests will favor weighting the back leg. If someone is taking pushes on the back, as another example, you'll find the weight will favor the front leg. Generally speaking, if someone pushes Tohei from the front, he is relaxing the upper body and allowing the lower body to absorb the push and it will naturally go into the back leg. If Tohei is pushing someone, the force comes from the back leg (it can change if he is moving, of course) to the middle to the point on which he is pushing. It's a matter of natural paths.

The important and constraining point is that you must have the *potential* for paths in all directions at all times. In other words if someone is pushing me hard from the front it goes into my back leg, but if he suddenly and dramatically pulls me to the front, the path should instantaneously be in the front leg so he can't move me in that direction either (these are demo's of how it works; not the "no resistance" of actual martial arts). If I am depending upon a "brace", I will never develop these automatic mental-path skills and I will never be in an equilibrium that responds to all directions.

What Mr. Sigman has written here seems correct. In the past I have seen a demonstration of kokyu where one individual is being pulled by two other individuals who are holding on with both hands to the demonstrator's forearms. Of course, this is nothing special, and we have all seen this done many times using various methods to throw the two ukes. Taking this a demonstration a bit further, the two ukes push upwards on the demonstrator's arms toward the shoulder, such that the demonstrator is now lifted completely in the air. This time the instant that he touches back to the ground the ukes are launched in opposite directions, sometimes upward, sometimes downward, sometimes backward, and sometimes spiraled as if thrown with kotegaeshi. This I have seen a few times, and although it is far from me as to how this is executed so quickly, I had made up my mind that it was based somewhat upon the principles that were illustrated above.

However, recently I saw the next level very of this demonstration where the ukes are thrown in the various directions I mentioned, but while the demonstrator is still several feet in the air? Given the principles mentioned with regards to direction of push, absorption, grounding, and earth kokyu, I would be curious what principles anyone might care to attribute to this last demonstration I mentioned with regards the previous comments in this thread?



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Old 03-27-2005, 04:47 PM   #80
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Taking this a demonstration a bit further, the two ukes push upwards on the demonstrator's arms toward the shoulder, such that the demonstrator is now lifted completely in the air. This time the instant that he touches back to the ground the ukes are launched in opposite directions, sometimes upward, sometimes downward, sometimes backward, and sometimes spiraled as if thrown with kotegaeshi. This I have seen a few times, and although it is far from me as to how this is executed so quickly, I had made up my mind that it was based somewhat upon the principles that were illustrated above.

However, recently I saw the next level very of this demonstration where the ukes are thrown in the various directions I mentioned, but while the demonstrator is still several feet in the air? Given the principles mentioned with regards to direction of push, absorption, grounding, and earth kokyu, I would be curious what principles anyone might care to attribute to this last demonstration I mentioned with regards the previous comments in this thread?.
There are ways to generate power in different directions, but unless I see something actually done, I wouldn't want to comment. The obvious also needs to be noted once again: the main principle you see in demonstrations like this is "The Principle of the Cooperative Students".

In a number of instances where I have seen almost miraculous demonstrations by a teacher, it turns out that he can't do them to someone who is uncooperative. I wouldn't worry about "the next level" based on demonstrations like that. Remember Ellis' story via Terry Dobson about the jo trick... sometimes these demonstrations indeed show something interesting, but a too-dramatic demonstration takes from it all.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-27-2005, 05:04 PM   #81
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
It has to be noted that Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido, Ki Society Aikido aka ki-aikido, is a dynamic style. That means changes are instigated from Ki No Kenkyukai (KNK) Ki Society Headquarters. This is not a style that attempts to capture the aikido of an individual and is static i.e. doesn't change.
I agree and don't agree.

This style is based on principles and those don't change, but our understanding of those principles is not static if we are truly honest explorers.

Even if this style was simply trying to capture Tohei's conception of aikido, the very fact that his aikido itself has been evolving over the past 30 years means that it could not be static. I was not meaning to imply that Ki-Aikido was simply chasing Tohei's shadow though you have to wonder about the goals of some. I don't believe however the principles have changed in the past few decades and sometimes something simply gets articulated for everyone that is not new but hadn't been spelled out for some (but maybe others who travel more than I do for all I know.). Certainly, I knew intuitively not to brace from the some of my previous training but then to hear spelled out explicitly is just a change in emphasis of communication that confirms what you already knew and allows you to feel free to explore what it means further.

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Old 03-27-2005, 05:19 PM   #82
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The important and constraining point is that you must have the *potential* for paths in all directions at all times. In other words if someone is pushing me hard from the front it goes into my back leg, but if he suddenly and dramatically pulls me to the front, the path should instantaneously be in the front leg so he can't move me in that direction either (these are demo's of how it works; not the "no resistance" of actual martial arts). If I am depending upon a "brace", I will never develop these automatic mental-path skills and I will never be in an equilibrium that responds to all directions.
ditto - I understand the "potential" for paths in all directions at all times. Pulling as well as pushing in ki exercises is something my teacher liked to do all the time for various postures. Learning not to be moved when forces come from changing directions or two directions at once (like front and side) will definitely teach one not to depend on bracing. Subtle continous oscillation forward and back can be really good training too. I do this with my students because I found the practice helpful for myself.

Last edited by kironin : 03-27-2005 at 05:25 PM.

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Old 03-27-2005, 05:32 PM   #83
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
This style is based on principles and those don't change, but our understanding of those principles is not static if we are truly honest explorers.
Absolutely true, in my view.
Quote:
Even if this style was simply trying to capture Tohei's conception of aikido, the very fact that his aikido itself has been evolving over the past 30 years means that it could not be static. I was not meaning to imply that Ki-Aikido was simply chasing Tohei's shadow though you have to wonder about the goals of some. I don't believe however the principles have changed in the past few decades and sometimes something simply gets articulated for everyone that is not new but hadn't been spelled out for some (but maybe others who travel more than I do for all I know.).
I don't think the principles have changed in at least 2,000 years. Manipulation of those principles has resulted in some cute offshoots (including some of the power generation methods), but the basic principles are cast in stone. It's what I meant by saying the logic is constrained. If I go to any expert of what we are calling "ki" and "kokyu power", there will be a basic agreement of the principles... although there will always be *demonstrable* levels of understanding. I have seen some weird situations where someone who knows a tremendous amount about these trainings in certain directions will be surprisingly ignorant of basics in other directions. But the core elements are always the same and the conversation between people who understand the core elements shouldn't vary across styles, etc.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-27-2005, 05:36 PM   #84
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
ditto - I understand the "potential" for paths in all directions at all times.
Well, it means the same thing as "extend Ki", more or less.
Quote:
Pulling as well as pushing in ki exercises is something my teacher liked to do all the time for various postures. Learning not to be moved when forces come from changing directions or two directions at once (like front and side) will definitely teach one not to depend on bracing. Subtle continous oscillation forward and back can be really good training too. I do this with my students because I found the practice helpful for myself.
As long as it's done very slowly with beginning students and the force isn't too much, I agree with you.

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Mike Sigman
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Old 03-27-2005, 05:49 PM   #85
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
As long as it's done very slowly with beginning students and the force isn't too much, I agree with you.
Yes, of course. I start out very slowly and only that force needed to be instructive to the mind.

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Old 03-27-2005, 05:58 PM   #86
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Yes, of course. I start out very slowly and only that force needed to be instructive to the mind.
I agree, again. Too much force makes a student react in normal ways and the idea is to let the mind set up the paths and recruit what it needs without the conscious mind recruiting the primary musculature. "Heart (the desire to do something) lead mind; mind leads Ki, Ki leads Kokyu".

Mike
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Old 03-27-2005, 09:52 PM   #87
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
There are ways to generate power in different directions, but unless I see something actually done, I wouldn't want to comment. The obvious also needs to be noted once again: the main principle you see in demonstrations like this is "The Principle of the Cooperative Students".

In a number of instances where I have seen almost miraculous demonstrations by a teacher, it turns out that he can't do them to someone who is uncooperative. I wouldn't worry about "the next level" based on demonstrations like that. Remember Ellis' story via Terry Dobson about the jo trick... sometimes these demonstrations indeed show something interesting, but a too-dramatic demonstration takes from it all.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mr. Sigman,

You point is well taken. However in this case, I happen to know both those individuals, and they are less cooperative, as uke, than even I. Oh yes, the jo trick... well I have had the privilege of being on the end of the jo from someone who can actually generate the particular kokyu that you have inquired about. I tried all I could to do just about anything, but I, and another from my dojo were pretty much out of any options. I understand your unwillingness to comment on things you haven't been able to experience for yourself. Wish you could have been there in both cases.

However, for argument's sake, had you been there and been one of the ones holding up the person demonstrating in my earlier example, having been thrown in such a manner, what would you attribute it to given your earlier explanations? Until that moment, I believed that there was some limitation arising from the individual not being in touch with the ground. But alas, I found out that all these years, he had only been showing me only a small portion of his capabilities. Perhaps I am incorrect in presuming that you, too may hold that contact with the ground is one of the basic elements needed to produce, or perhaps project kokyu. Your thoughts?

In any case, since I believe that you have had a chance to observe quite a bit outside of the Japanese sphere to which I, myself, have been exposed, I was hoping that you might be willing to share your thoughts on the mere possibility of such kokyu, ki, or what have you...



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Old 03-28-2005, 07:27 AM   #88
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
You point is well taken. However in this case, I happen to know both those individuals, and they are less cooperative, as uke, than even I. Oh yes, the jo trick... well I have had the privilege of being on the end of the jo from someone who can actually generate the particular kokyu that you have inquired about. I tried all I could to do just about anything, but I, and another from my dojo were pretty much out of any options. I understand your unwillingness to comment on things you haven't been able to experience for yourself. Wish you could have been there in both cases.
No offense, but since I don't know you or the uke's I still can't comment. After too many years of experience where I've found things just weren't how I envisioned them from the descriptions, I've just learned shrug and wait until I can see them.
Quote:
However, for argument's sake, had you been there and been one of the ones holding up the person demonstrating in my earlier example, having been thrown in such a manner, what would you attribute it to given your earlier explanations? Until that moment, I believed that there was some limitation arising from the individual not being in touch with the ground. But alas, I found out that all these years, he had only been showing me only a small portion of his capabilities. Perhaps I am incorrect in presuming that you, too may hold that contact with the ground is one of the basic elements needed to produce, or perhaps project kokyu. Your thoughts?
If you go back and look at few of my posts, I mentioned the second thing you use (or at least an appreciable part of it) if you are generating power but in a downward direction and/or you don't have contact with the ground. However, there's a couple of ways to use that power suddenly, so without seeing it done, I'd rather not just guess the exact mechanics. I use a certain kind of mechanics that involves the dantien, but I can't believe someone doing Aikido would use that same mechanics... I'd bet they are more hip-oriented, if I had to bet.

Assuming that it is someone like Abe Sensei you're talking about, then he's probably getting it from suburi (remember, a suburito moves in 2 directions, so it is powered 2 different ways) and breath training. I use a long waxwood pole. Either way, the smart thing to do is to get the other basics correct and ingrained before worrying about power releases. I see people all the time who chase the power releases but who never get very far because they don't understand that the basis for power-releasing is the simple things they glossed over. Is it better to spend a year on basics or spend 5 years unsuccessfully chasing power releases and then having to come back and do the basics anyway?

FWIW

Mike
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Old 03-28-2005, 08:50 AM   #89
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Incidentally, I'm assuming that Shaun's descriptions of some form of power releases in Aikido indicates an anomaly. Does anyone else have first-hand experience with a "traditional" and recognized teacher in Aikido using power releases? Frankly, I've never seen any recognized expert in Aikido use what I would consider proper power release techniques, but it could be that I've missed something. Certainly my immediate reaction is that such things are extraneous to normal Aikido practice. Any thoughts?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-29-2005, 05:18 PM   #90
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

I got my copy of the DVD "Gozo Shioda: Shingi Denju" today and watched it. I was really surprised at how much of the video is devoted to Shioda doing Ki tricks. On the one hand it's a lot easier to estimate what someone has trained to do in the ki area if they do a number of ki tricks for you to watch (assuming you have a background in these things). On the other hand, I was a little irritated that the ever-practical Shioda had so many students who were doing the standard dives for some of the tricks. Don't get me wrong... I'm so used to seeing this sort of behaviour in Asian martial arts that I don't consider it a negative so much as I consider it a standard distraction that you just try to look around.

I could see what ki abilities Shioda thought was important to demonstrate so I could extrapolate generally what he trained and probably how he trained. At this point in time I'd say that Ueshiba, Shioda, as well as the already-confirmed Tohei did standing postures. I've mulled it over back and forth and to be honest I can't get a real feel for whether Shioda got his standing and other training from Ueshiba or whether he got is somewhere else. Already I have to admit that Ki knowledge is/was further along in Japan than I'd supposed, so I can't assume these things came from just a few sources anymore. The level of ki tricks that I'm seeing is not all that high, but it's pretty good, IMO, for whatever that's worth to the general conversation.

The general thrust of my comments is that standing-post training is and has been a probability, not a possibility. My opinion.

Mike
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Old 03-29-2005, 11:12 PM   #91
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I could see what ki abilities Shioda thought was important to demonstrate so I could extrapolate generally what he trained and probably how he trained. At this point in time I'd say that Ueshiba, Shioda, as well as the already-confirmed Tohei did standing postures.
*crrrruunch* (the sound of fortune cookie being opened)
*read in your best Chinese accent* "...It always good to remember that there is more than one way to skin a cat. "MMMmmm, cat... indeed!"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I've mulled it over back and forth and to be honest I can't get a real feel for whether Shioda got his standing and other training from Ueshiba or whether he got is somewhere else.
*crrrruunch* (the sound of another fortune cookie being opened)
*read in your best Chinese accent* "...sometime man on path not following man in front of him on same path." "Mmmm, tasty cookie!"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Already I have to admit that Ki knowledge is/was further along in Japan than I'd supposed, so I can't assume these things came from just a few sources anymore.
*crrrruunch* (the sound of yet another fortune cookie being opened)
*read in your best Chinese accent* "...sometime man go outside and look everywhere for thing he end up finding in own closet." "Hmmmmmm, I wonder if this is one year egg or hundred year egg? Both smell very bad, indeed!"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The level of ki tricks that I'm seeing is not all that high, but it's pretty good, IMO, for whatever that's worth to the general conversation.
*crrrruunch* (the sound of still another fortune cookie being opened)
*read in your best Chinese accent* "...what one see not often what one get. This due to not knowing which part of glass to look at, the half full part or half empty part " "Hmmmmmm, I don't think egg go with fortune cookie..."

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The general thrust of my comments is that standing-post training is and has been a probability, not a possibility. My opinion.
*crrrruunch* (the sound of last fortune cookie being opened)
*read in your best Chinese accent* "...man who eat too many fortune cookie for sure get older and maybe even wiser, but most often get fatter and slower and run out of cookie sooner rather than later."

In any case, Mr. universal truth man says "...Opinion like fortune cookie, go in one end, come out other."



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Old 03-30-2005, 05:42 AM   #92
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

That was cute, Shaun, but I have yet to see you say anything useful in your posts... other than your belief that kokyu was just about breathing. So if you can contribute some substance about the topic, I'd be pleased and even amazed.

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Mike Sigman
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Old 03-30-2005, 07:40 AM   #93
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
That was cute, Shaun, but I have yet to see you say anything useful in your posts... other than your belief that kokyu was just about breathing. So if you can contribute some substance about the topic, I'd be pleased and even amazed.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Mr Sigman,

Yes, it is obvious that you have yet to see anything useful in my posts, or anyone else's here. That is the point upon which should you choose to focus, you might actually get the thing you came here needing most. My last post was "tongue in cheek" as noted, but alas it seems that you missed that, too.

As for what you said I said about Kokyu, please see my above observation.

I mean, (rhetorical question alert) what is a supposed Chinese Internalist doing in an Aikido forum anyway? You have already stated (so many times now) that the Japanese (I think you meant to add "Arts") are nowhere near as advanced, and that Aikido in an of itself (at least today) is at best an incomplete exercise in futility due to the supposed missing standing postures that the Founder, *GASP* as you have already deemed the truth must have been doing to have developed his own (just "pretty good" as you like to say) abilities.

I am sincerely interested in the Chinese path about which you speak, and seemingly know so much. I am sure anyone here finding themselves in a forum about Chinese Internal Arts would be greatly benefited by your decades of experience and clear explanations of the more difficult to cultivate aspects of the wonderful arts in which you have obviously spent a long time training. I, for one still look forward to reading your contributions, regardless of the amount of time needed to filter out your overwhelming personal biases.

However, you came here and this is an Aikido Forum, not a Chinese Internal Arts forum. Each of us comes to the forum for our own reasons. In my case, I don't come here to teach, I come here to share. There is a difference. One doesn't need to be an expert in Aikido, or even practice it to read along or post here. Having said that, I am sure you would agree that putting one's head down, closing the eyes and running full steam ahead into the wall is not the best way to move forward into the next room. You would be wonderfully surprised at what (and whom) you might find there, by the way.

Therefore, when someone with clearly another agenda tends to put out information that is more often than not:

A. An incorrect assumption
B. A statement based upon insufficient information
C. Deliberately Verbose in an unconscious attempt at avoiding discovery

rather than

D. Inquisitive in nature or thought provoking in both tone and content...

some people who might not have enough information to know any better just might find it useful for someone else to take the time to clearly mark it, highlight it, cordon it off, or what have you so that no one accidentally trips over it and falls and hurts themselves. Of course you don't have to like it when it is done to you, especially when you can only see it is as fortune cookie advice delivered to your door by a guy using his best Chinese accent to make you feel right at home.

Once again, I invite you to attend the upcoming Aiki Expo in California this Memorial Day Weekend. I believe that taking the time to experience the aikido of today - the one that is actually out here, rather than continually referencing some Aikido that you unfortunately had contact with some time in the past, will go a long way towards bridging the gap that seemingly separates us (that would be you and those of us actually training in Aikido) by such a great distance. In any case, it will certainly help to take the edge off …or not, depending on if you open up to it.

You could always come to NY if you like, as both a whole slew of Chinese and I would be happy to take you out for dim sum. Knowing your preference for standing around, we'll ask to eat at a table that has no chairs, again - to make you feel at home. NY, CA… etc., it is your choice, as always.



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Old 03-30-2005, 08:03 AM   #94
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Yes, it is obvious that you have yet to see anything useful in my posts, or anyone else's here. That is the point upon which should you choose to focus, you might actually get the thing you came here needing most.[snip]
And then, once again Shaun goes off into another post totally off the issue and attacking me personally. [quote]As for what you said I said about Kokyu, please see my above observation. [/QUOTE/ What you said about kokyu is on the thread for everyone to see. You obviously had it wrong and you're going to have to tap dance pretty hard to convince anyone but a rank beginner that you didn't know what you were talking about. But notice that I didn't attack you personally and that I skirted the subject of your misstatements without hanging you out to dry as some obvious "I Know the Secrets" guy, which you appear to be.

The mistake you're making is in thinking that somehow you and I are in a competition, Shaun. Get that out of your mind and discuss the issues, please.
Quote:
I mean, (rhetorical question alert) what is a supposed Chinese Internalist doing in an Aikido forum anyway? You have already stated (so many times now) that the Japanese (I think you meant to add "Arts") are nowhere near as advanced, and that Aikido in an of itself (at least today) is at best an incomplete exercise in futility due to the supposed missing standing postures that the Founder, *GASP* as you have already deemed the truth must have been doing to have developed his own (just "pretty good" as you like to say) abilities.
Show me that statement and where I've made it, Shaun. And if you don't think I belong on this forum, can you give us the reasons why?
Quote:
However, you came here and this is an Aikido Forum, not a Chinese Internal Arts forum. Each of us comes to the forum for our own reasons. In my case, I don't come here to teach, I come here to share.
Then I misunderstood you, Shaun. I thought you were here trolling for people to "call you privately" so you could "set up lessons". In fact, I was a little startled that you were presenting what information you've garnered from Abe Sensei as being what Ueshiba did.... when Abe Sensei openly says he learned it from other sources. Again though, I didn't attack you personally, even when you did this. In fact, I've sat quietly through several of your attacks up until now. Do you think it will be easier to get back to the subject now?
Quote:
Once again, I invite you to attend the upcoming Aiki Expo in California this Memorial Day Weekend. I believe that taking the time to experience the aikido of today - the one that is actually out here, rather than continually referencing some Aikido that you unfortunately had contact with some time in the past, will go a long way towards bridging the gap that seemingly separates us (that would be you and those of us actually training in Aikido) by such a great distance. In any case, it will certainly help to take the edge off …or not, depending on if you open up to it.

You could always come to NY if you like, as both a whole slew of Chinese and I would be happy to take you out for dim sum. Knowing your preference for standing around, we'll ask to eat at a table that has no chairs, again - to make you feel at home. NY, CA… etc., it is your choice, as always.
The basic sputtering you've been doing lately is along the lines of "there's other ways to skin a cat" and "there are other approaches" with the implication that you know those things, Shaun. But you never tell anyone anything on this forum about how to do those things. Instead of lecturing me and trying to get others to grovel toward you to learn privately, why not simply engage in open debate about where I'm wrong, missing the point, etc.? So far all you've done is try to smear me personally and I'm calling you on it.... let's see you debate facts, Shaun. Tell us "other approaches" and how they work. I can support what I say with demonstration, credentials in things ki and kokyu, and people on this forum and others who have seen me do things. So far I haven't heard anyone support the idea that you're the holder of deep secrets that you purport to be. So let's just have a good discussion of the issues, shall we? Want to start with the questions I asked you to answer the other evening or do you want to start somewhere else?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-30-2005, 12:10 PM   #95
Michael Mackenzie
Location: Calgary
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
I got my copy of the DVD "Gozo Shioda: Shingi Denju" today and watched it. I was really surprised at how much of the video is devoted to Shioda doing Ki tricks.

[snip]

The level of ki tricks that I'm seeing is not all that high, but it's pretty good, IMO, for whatever that's worth to the general conversation.
Hi Mike,

Could you share with the list materials (i.e., books, videos, or names of practitioners - Chinese, Japanese or otherwise) that, in your opinion, provide adequate demonstration of high-level ki/qi tricks?

Thanks,

Mike
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Old 03-30-2005, 12:42 PM   #96
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

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But you never tell anyone anything on this forum about how to do those things.
I don't mean to be contrary, but the above just didn't seem completely accurate...so I thought I'd provide the link below as a point of reference.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...ghlight=misogi

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-30-2005, 12:51 PM   #97
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Quote:
Michael Mackenzie wrote:
Could you share with the list materials (i.e., books, videos, or names of practitioners - Chinese, Japanese or otherwise) that, in your opinion, provide adequate demonstration of high-level ki/qi tricks?
Hi Mike:
Hmmmmm. At the moment, in terms of videos, my mind can only conjure up things I've seen that I wouldn't particularly recommend because again there is too much "student power" (we also call a lot of these things "psychological power") going on. Again, let me note that in many cases a demonstrator has some pretty good powers, but he discredits himself by doing one of the "over-reacting-students" demonstrations. Chu King Hong likes to do a lot of the demo's like that using his students and there was one a year or so ago on a German website.

I've watched plenty of these demonstrations over the years, but I've never videotaped them. The cold-eyed big dogs usually won't do them unless it's half jest. The closest thing I can think of that might be readily available would be some of the yiquan tapes. There are some really good yiquan practitioners, but they also have a lot of over-acting students in their midst, too.

Qi/Ki tricks fall into a few categories, "hard" and "soft" and "external". What Shioda, Tohei, etc, do is more in the line of "soft" tricks (don't get distraught about the use of the word "trick"... it's common and not meant to be offensive). All of the Ki/Qi things are sort of intertwined, but they can be broken down into 3 major areas for discussion purposes:

"Hard" tricks involve showing the strength and impenetrability-of-skin aspects of developed qi. Breaking stones, bending steel rods, laying on sharp objects, getting run over by a truck, etc., are all aspects of this side of qi development. The body "health" and immune system are most tied to this one, IMO.

"External qi" is doing things around the "magnetic feeling" that most people can produce pretty quickly; it also has a tie-in to psychology and suggestibility, but I'm only a novice in that area so I don't pretend to understand how it all works. I can usually lead most people through a simple qigong in about 10 minutes and have them into this area.... so it's something everyone can do, not magic.

The "soft qi" and "power" things are all related and are, in my opinion, the most useful for martial arts applications. All of the push, pull, angle changes of force and power are part of the "soft" and mind-led abilities. They use "intent" (which can be a complex subject, but it basically involves learning how to control things a person doesn't normally control in his body). The control of power in 4 directions is how these powers are normally systematized: up, down, away from the body, toward the body. Combining these "soft" powers with breathing exercises similar to ones used in "hard qigongs" can result in pretty good power. Dantien and/or hips can be thought of an additive part of the chain of power for these things, BTW.

Shioda was demonstrating on the one video I have mainly that last kind of power. Ueshiba's demo's and Tohei's "ki tests" fall into that category, for the most part.

Shaun Ravens vaguely described something that *might* be extended power usage of the last sort, but I couldn't tell how sophisticated it was from his description. I'd heard from a direct student of Abe Sensei's about Abe doing something that smacked of power developed from breathing exercises and maybe even some dantien or hip added to it.

Speaking of power development, yiquan is sort of interesting in that they focus a lot on power development. Some of the power being developed by the yiquan people is in a direct line with what I'm seeing/hearing in relation to Aikido. Just as in Aikido and a lot of other arts, the secrets to doing all the trainings are kept obscured, but if you have some idea of the basics, one of them put out a set of DVD's that is really, really good (bear in mind that he *shows* how to train some things, but he doesn't show everything and he's sparse on the how-to's... you have to have some basic knowledge of these things). The DVD's I'm talking about (and I recommend them) are at: http://www.plumpub.com/sales/dvd/dvdcoll_yiquqan.htm


Anyway, hope that helps some.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 03-30-2005, 12:57 PM   #98
Mike Sigman
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

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Ron Tisdale wrote:
I don't mean to be contrary, but the above just didn't seem completely accurate...so I thought I'd provide the link below as a point of reference.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...ghlight=misogi
You and I have a completely different idea of what telling someone how to do things is, Ron. Look at what I just post on ki and qi things.... you don't know how to do anything based on what I posted, but you have some information about the general subject. HOW to do these things is the essence... not the what. The lists of steps from Shaun and via Ward Raferty are nice, but I assure you that they don't tell you how to do anything; they describe the *steps*.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 03-30-2005, 01:16 PM   #99
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

Exactly...so his contributions and yours are on the same level then...right?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-30-2005, 01:23 PM   #100
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Standing Postures in Aikido?

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Ron Tisdale wrote:
Exactly...so his contributions and yours are on the same level then...right?
No, because I gave some pretty precise directions on how to do some things in a couple of threads. Alas... you didn't notice. I wasted my time.

Mike
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