Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-04-2005, 02:58 PM   #1
Pankration90
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Shime-waza in Aikido?

I never really noticed a lack of shime-waza/chokes when I've read about aikido or seen it demonstrated, but I stumbled across this quote on another forum and it got me thinking:
Quote:
To my knowledge shime waza has been deleted from our aikido syllabus, so it is no wonder why I would be a bit baffled. Thanks.
What is the reason for excluding shime-waza from aikido? Even if the use of chokes goes against the "defensive" mindset, I don't understand why aikido would neglect defending against chokes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2005, 03:00 PM   #2
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

I'd like to see chokes in there. I know some people disagree but I think they're a great example of the aiki ethos. You can render an attacker completely harmless without doing them lasting damage.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2005, 03:08 PM   #3
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

ushiro tekubi shime is a commonly used attack everywhere I have trained.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2005, 04:11 PM   #4
James Young
Location: Orange County, CA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

Although an ushiro katate-dori kubi-shime attack or some variation of that still seems to be still a fairly common attack practiced in most dojos as John mentioned, I agree that the use of shime waza being taught and practiced for nage in response to various attacks seems to be significantly less common. I've been in dojos which have practiced it and other others which have not and those were all aikikai dojos. I personally think it can be quite effective when done correctly.

When you ask "What is the reason for excluding shime-waza from aikido?" I assume you are not just referring to what is practiced in your dojo but perhaps making that assumption based on some standard such as observing what is practiced at various dojos or what is practiced at (aikikai) honbu or something like that? Since I've practiced shime-waza at more than one dojo and continue to do so I don't think it has been excluded, at least not entirely, from aikido. Only perhaps excluded by some instructors or organizations, which may constitute the majority. I don't know if that answers the question completely, but if your standard is what practiced at honbu I do know from my experience that shime-waza is not practiced generally at honbu. If it use to be and is now excluded I don't know. However, they don't generally practice with weapons either so to me personally that shouldn't be the standard to determine what waza should be practiced and what shouldn't. Individual teachers and orgranizations will continue to practice differently and with unique waza.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2005, 05:20 PM   #5
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

We do shimewaza all the time in our dojo, just as we do bokken and jo. Neither of these is Hombu standard practice, but we do it anyway.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2005, 05:40 PM   #6
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

The Aikido Master Course: Best Aikido 2 by Moriteru Ueshiba has numerous examples. He labels it Ushiro Kubijime.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2005, 09:07 PM   #7
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,145
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

We do chokes regularly. We do it not only as attacks, but as a technique from various attacks. Sometimes entire class is about chokes. It is important part of aikido.
Chokes are not very agreeable to receive, but still a lot of fun.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2005, 10:40 PM   #8
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
...<snip>...
What is the reason for excluding shime-waza from aikido? Even if the use of chokes goes against the "defensive" mindset, I don't understand why aikido would neglect defending against chokes.
You are right... in my dojo syllabus, shime waza is completely excluded. Nonetheless, nothing to stop us boyz from experimenting with other arts' armamentarium.

Please allow me to speculate on the reasons why shimewaza is decidely excluded from aikido.

Reason 1:
Aikido is derived from weapon art. There are pugilist and there are swordsman and aikido is the physical expression of a swordman without sword. I guess when you have weapon in hand, the need for chokes is rendered redundant.

Reason 2
There are a myriad of MA out there in the world and the founder or practitioner inadvertently decide to specialize. If there is such thing as complete art, then it will take us mortal many lives to learn. IMO, aikido founder took what he deem work for him and formulated aikido. Aikido focuses on timing, focused power, blending, avoidance. BJJer decided to focus on ground fighting, grappling/kantetsu and choke/shimewaza. Judo, karate each have their area of specialization.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2005, 10:59 PM   #9
Pankration90
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

My apologies if aikido does in fact have chokes. I am by no means an expert on it.

However, what I have read about aikido in books, on the internet, on forums, etc. lead me to believe that there weren't chokes or that they were rarely practiced. There are no chokes in "Aikido: Tradition and the Competitive Edge" and I didn't notice any in other aikido books I've looked through (though I may have missed them if there were any).

"Aikido: Tradition and the Competitive Edge" mentions strangling techniques, but that is when the author is comparing Tomiki Aikido to Judo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2005, 03:12 PM   #10
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
My apologies if aikido does in fact have chokes. I am by no means an expert on it.

However, what I have read about aikido in books, on the internet, on forums, etc. lead me to believe that there weren't chokes or that they were rarely practiced.

The really interesting things in aikido don't wind up in the books: the kind of things where a seventh dan does something and everyone in the seminar looks at each other and says: "What did he just do?"

I think that chokes become a vital part of the art because of the many occassions we wind up behind uke (as in irimi-nage or kiri otoshi) and for one reason or another we cannot go through with a more typical technique. And also because there are occasions when you cannot avoid being dragged to the ground by a larger, uncompliant or just bloody-minded uke. In that case,you had better be prepared to finish the job with hadaka jime, sode guruma, or gyaku juji jime.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2005, 12:26 AM   #11
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

Yoseikan aikido has chokes. I am pretty sure that Yoshinkan and Tomiki teach them too...
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 08:00 AM   #12
AikiSean!
 
AikiSean!'s Avatar
Dojo: Alpharetta Martial Arts
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 68
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

We in my dojo(chudokai) still practice some choke defense. Though its few and far between from what I have seen.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 10:16 AM   #13
phil farmer
Dojo: Nacogdoches
Location: Texas
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 47
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

Yoseikan, in fact, has an entire shime waza kata that was taught this past summer at our World Stage (clinic) in Les Saintes Maries de la Mer, France. It involves 17 or so different strangles. We also use shime techniques in response to punches and grasps, so they are very much a part of our curriculum.

Phil Farmer
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 10:41 AM   #14
Choku Tsuki
 
Choku Tsuki's Avatar
Dojo: Bond Street Dojo
Location: New York, New York
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 123
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

Because as nage we defend against chokes [ushiro kubishime] I think it's fair to apply a choke if my partner turns his back to me, for example, as henkawaza from ikkyo. And I'll do it if I think my partner will benefit from the experience.

--Chuck
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 11:07 AM   #15
Rocky Izumi
Dojo: GUST Aikido Club
Location: Salwa, Kuwait
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 381
Kuwait
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

Most Aikikai syllabi I have seen only have shimewaza to be countered as part of the syllabus but at various seminars the Shihan have taken the senior ranks and demonstrated shimewaza variations from sankkyo, kaiten nage, iriminarge, kokyunage, koshinage, kata- or hiji- gatame, and shihonage. But the comment has been that these are not very good when attacked by multiple attackers and can distract you to not notice multiple attackers when attacked apparently by one person. They pointed out better to quickly diable the attacker and move on. They also pointed out that these techniques are usually taught only as ura-waza (behind the shed techniques) and are not part of the regular curriculum. I think if you stick around long enough, and learn the basics well enough that you can apply the regular version with facility, they might show you the other versions. Most times I have been taught these versions was in sessions with only one or two yudansha around and during drinking sessions.

Rock
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 03:29 PM   #16
pezalinski
 
pezalinski's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Harvard (IL)
Location: harvard, IL
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 159
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

In all of the dojos I've been involved with, we've always taught "Ushiro kubi shime" techniques as the "static" form of any ushiro techniques -- it's one of the the basic attacks from behind. Ushiro kubishime koshinage is on the 2nd Kyu Test in the version of the USAF requiements I have on file...

We've been taught other choking techniques, for nage and uke's benefit -- usually related to Aiki-Jitsu or Judo, by various instructors. Is this really that uncommon in aikido dojos?


A little danger is a knowledge thing...

"Helping the planet make an impact on people, since 1985"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2005, 09:27 AM   #17
phil farmer
Dojo: Nacogdoches
Location: Texas
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 47
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

Learning to go straight into a shime waza technique from a punch or kick is also very helpful with multiple attackers who may be armed. If I have uke in a strangle, I can place him between me and other attackers. As a side issue, the strangled look on uke's face can help disuade others from following up with an attack. If not, they get uke in their lap when they attack.

Phil Farmer
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2005, 11:20 AM   #18
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 893
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

I have heard talk that shime waza is more in line with grappling technique, and not main-stream aikido. While I feel that chokes are vital to martial arts training, this may be why the choke is "out" in aikido. I think they are great training aids solid technique to apply on the street.

That said, I offer a tale about using chokes in a fight... Couple of rugby players at a bar started trouble and I ended up with a 75% choke on one while the other two circled me. I found myself struggling to maintain control with the choke; my victim was difficult to manuever and working to break the hold and I was backing up to keep distance from the other two. I had to abandon the choke.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2005, 03:19 PM   #19
csinca
 
csinca's Avatar
Dojo: Various
Location: Southern California
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 66
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

Jon,

I know nothing of your background so please don't take offense to my question: did you have trouble with the choke in the bar because you hadn't practiced enough or do you believe there is a fundamental flaw with chokes? Never having tried to apply a choke in a bar fight, I'm just trying to determine whether you are warnings against chokes or recommending more practice.

In my mind I'm seeing a rear naked choke, is this what you were going for?

Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2005, 04:40 PM   #20
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
What is the reason for excluding shime-waza from aikido? Even if the use of chokes goes against the "defensive" mindset, I don't understand why aikido would neglect defending against chokes.
I think in Aikido, we're learning to fight off multiple attackers at once and to debilitate them as fast as possible...you probably shouldn't be choking an attacker when his two buddies are coming at you.

As far as "defending against chokes," if they've gotten that close, your Aikido was already too sorry to save you--if you couldn't maintain good distance, what's half-a**ed choke defense training going to get you?

If you want a "complete" system, you have to move on from Aikido (or start somewhere besides it). Aikido teaches body mechanics, not techniques.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 02-13-2005 at 04:43 PM. Reason: and another thought
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2005, 08:30 AM   #21
phil farmer
Dojo: Nacogdoches
Location: Texas
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 47
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

Jean,

I'm sorry but I don't agree. There are many situations that people can get close enough to you to try to choke you and it doesn't mean your aiki is bad. there are too many people who have just enough training in some sort of martial art to make them dangerous. So, defending against a choke is important self defense. I don't know what aiki you study, but techniques are definitely part of Yoseikan (and it is a complete system, based on aiki) and techniques are a part of all aiki systems.

I think what is at issue is the ability to apply aiki techniques in a wide range of situations, against a wide range of attacks. I can say this, if you attempt to choke a Yoseikan practitioner, you will get much more than "a half-a**ed" defense. You will probably discover some poor aiki body mechanic movement has been applied to the choke and that a quick need for ukemi skills has arisen.

I also wonder how the idea of "debilitating" someone as quickly as possible fits with most of my experiences in aikido dojos. In many (if not most) aikido schools you hear just the opposite, that the true expression of aiki is the ability to find harmony with an opponent and this would not include inflicting a debilitating injury. I teach my students that the goal is to escape and get away from the situation, right after I teach them that they should not have been in the situation in the first place.

A final thought is this: aikido uses a number of ways to pin uke (kansetsu waza) in order to control him/her. Why would you exclude an entire waza (shime) that can do the same thing?

Phil Farmer
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2005, 09:44 AM   #22
debigthump
 
debigthump's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

I'm sure there are a lot of great aiki tecs for a choke like spiraling stare case or a good set up head winding throw ,,,,,BUT,,,,, i like the single finger release. some times a simple tec can be affective in a pinch. don't know if that applies to the question at hand ,,BUT.. again its good to hear
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2005, 10:12 AM   #23
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

How about chokes with ropes, cords or belts?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2005, 01:35 PM   #24
debigthump
 
debigthump's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

belts from the rear gives you 8 seconds to apply a tec ...then all you can hope for is that the tec you choose works the first time .
i would go with a tree to style take down preceded by an elbow
with intensity....but there are others that work
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2005, 02:52 PM   #25
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Shime-waza in Aikido?

Quote:
Phil Farmer wrote:
There are many situations that people can get close enough to you to try to choke you and it doesn't mean your aiki is bad.
If you can't maintain proper distance, I'd say your Aikido is poor.


Quote:
Phil Farmer wrote:
I don't know what aiki you study, but techniques are definitely part of Yoseikan (and it is a complete system, based on aiki) and techniques are a part of all aiki systems.
I believe that body mechanics are being taught through the use of techniques.


Quote:
Phil Farmer wrote:
I can say this, if you attempt to choke a Yoseikan practitioner, you will get much more than "a half-a**ed" defense.
For the sake of conversation, take two martial artist clones. Everything is the same about them, except training. One trains all the time on techniques which utilize an average distance between aggressor and defendor of about six feet. However, he spends ten or fifteen minutes a day on choke defense.

The other, trains all the time in one of the ground-grappling arts. He trains chokes all the time.

If the latter attacks the former and gets inside, the defense the former would launch is, in all likelihood, relatively half-a**ed compared to what the grappler is accustomed to.

Just my perspective.


Quote:
Phil Farmer wrote:
I also wonder how the idea of "debilitating" someone as quickly as possible fits with most of my experiences in aikido dojos. In many (if not most) aikido schools you hear just the opposite, that the true expression of aiki is the ability to find harmony with an opponent and this would not include inflicting a debilitating injury. I teach my students that the goal is to escape and get away from the situation, right after I teach them that they should not have been in the situation in the first place.
As I understand it, O'Sensei always said that Aikido was first and foremost a martial art.

However, in my style, it is said "one attack, one technique." Meaning that should anyone attack, they shouldn't be able to attack again.


Quote:
Phil Farmer wrote:
A final thought is this: aikido uses a number of ways to pin uke (kansetsu waza) in order to control him/her. Why would you exclude an entire waza (shime) that can do the same thing?
Good point. I guess we'd need to know why we have pins at all.

So why do we have pins?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Testing requirements kyu levels arjandevries Testing 10 08-07-2006 08:26 PM
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 05:20 PM
Proposta organização do Aikido Portugal kimusubi0 Portuguese 0 05-03-2004 03:26 AM
Two things. Veers General 8 04-04-2003 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:42 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate