Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-08-2005, 12:38 PM   #1
rookie
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
United_States
Offline
actual techniques used by police

i've appreciated the replies of whether aikido is good for police work. now can a few of you cops give a brief description of situations you have been in and list the techniques you used. thanks.
-rookie
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2005, 03:14 PM   #2
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

Quote:
William Bosworth wrote:
i've appreciated the replies of whether aikido is good for police work. now can a few of you cops give a brief description of situations you have been in and list the techniques you used. thanks.
-rookie
FWIW, rookie, this has been the topic of many discussions so you don't have to wait for folks to answer here. Try this: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/search.php?

Good luck.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2005, 12:04 AM   #3
John Houck
Dojo: Westminster Tenshinkai Aikido
Location: Long Beach, California
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 12
United_States
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

I know several police agencies that use Aikido and well as the Koga system out in California. Its great, especially for the joint locks.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2005, 10:54 PM   #4
Dan Rubin
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Location: Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 335
United_States
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

Quote:
William Bosworth wrote:
now can a few of you cops give a brief description of situations you have been in and list the techniques you used. thanks.
-rookie
Why?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2005, 06:52 AM   #5
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

I've known a few policemen who have used aikido in their police work, which they have learnt independently and as far as I am aware in Yorkshire (England) one of the instructors of the police instructors is an aikido teacher.

Pretty much the idea of 'certain techniques are good' is a bit of a fallacy - techniques need to fit a certain situation and aikido is 'complete' in that you can't really remove any of the core techniques without having a large gap. If you get obsessed with using a certain technique for a certain type of attack it suggests the blending is very poor, and in many cases the response is likely to be inefectual (or at least predictable).

In reality I am aware of actual police events in which they used:
-sankyo being used to take someones hand from the steering wheel of a car (and out the car).
-nikkyo (a grab)
-shiho-nage (a hook type punch)
- rokyo


If you are a policeman wanting to focus in just a couple of techniques start with the pins (ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo) and maybe irimi-nage. These are good for simple restaint, but with more violent aggression and fast multiple attacks other techniques may be necessary. I think of the core 8 techniques for aikido as:

ikkyo (and derived pins), irimi-nage, tenchi-nage, kokyu-nage, shiho-nage, kote-gaeshi, sumi-otoshi & kaiten-nage.

Last edited by ian : 01-10-2005 at 06:57 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2005, 08:20 AM   #6
Yann Golanski
 
Yann Golanski's Avatar
Dojo: York Shodokan Aikido
Location: York, United Kingdom.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 406
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

Ian,

I can confirm that there is at least one senior policeman in Yorkshire that knows Aikido as he's my teacher.

He has used Aikido in the street while working. His main criticism of it was that throws were bad since the suspect can get away, harm others and/or sue the officer for GBH. Pins are the best things but one needs to be careful not to break anything. Again, see my inumerable list of posts on "reasonable force"...

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2005, 03:18 PM   #7
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

I would agree, it is not a very wise thing to be stuck on techniques. The overall training is what is important. Techniques are just statistical consequences of a proficiently trained law enforcement agent. Though not a police officer myself, I do train them on a regular basis and in an official capacity. The folks I have trained have come from several branches of the law enforcement profession. These people have managed to pull off nearly any "technique," but also they have been able to perform the strategies of Aikido as well -- e.g. awareness, clearing the line of attack, taking the path of least resistance, breaking balance, etc.

What is important, in my opinion, is the training -- how it occurs, how often it occurs, and under want conditions it occurs, etc. That said, though one can wait to train many years in order to become proficient in Aikido and then therefore in their law enforcement duties, one can also learn Aikido tactics and strategies and apply them relatively quickly in a successful manner as long as those things are transmitted in a more "directed" (i.e. addressing the more probable needs of the average law enforcement agent) manner. I think those are the main two choices when it comes to Aikido and law enforcement work.

On a side note -- but one I feel is related: I feel Aikido is much more suited as a tactical base than some of the other bases you might find within various law enforcement agencies. For example, the ground-fighting folks (e.g. BJJ-base) and the striking folks (e.g. Krav Maga-base) often have a very difficult time in our scenario training sessions when we are dealing with truly resistant and/or aggressive subjects -- especially when more than one is involved. This is not to say that one should know how to fight on the ground or that one's should not know how to strike (or even to suggest that Aikido does not have strikes). However, it is extremely difficult (not impossible) to fight on the ground against a resistant/aggressive subject when you are wearing a fully loaded duty belt (because of the need to protect the various weapons you may simply be temporarily holding for the subject) and when your job is not to get him/her to "tap-out" but to get them in cuffs, etc. (Not to mention the multiple attacker situations.) And, while it is extremely difficult (i.e. requiring great skill, which requires a great time training) to strike someone with decent enough force to actually effect their mass or their will to resist and/or attack, it often proves more difficult to justify such tactics against both public perception and department policy.

You can check out this link for what some officers have said about our program. It will also tell you a little bit more about our program (about Aikido and arrest and control training). Down the road, I will be posting some articles on this exact stuff, so check out the site later too if you can -- at your convenience.

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/dojoinfo/arcon.html

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2005, 10:09 PM   #8
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,134
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

Hi Will,

There are some law enforcement officers who train in aikido and have used their training over the years. The very few I've known have used a variety of techniques, all in the context of the principles of aikido. There are also a lot of law enforcement folks who are not aikidoka and have learned a few techniques without the principles of movement. If you are interested in hearing from the former, you will probably be disappointed. In the latter case, most officers have at least some rudimentary knowledge of wrist pins that are perhaps founded in aikido. The officers probably don't even know they are applying something similar to nikkyo or sankyo or what have you. They just know that the control holds work for them.

I suggest that you will be disappointed by the accounts from officers who are aikidoka because they either simply avoided the attacks and quietly took the individual into custody or moved off line and helped the individual to place himself in custody. Probably not a lot of "blood and guts" war stories. On the other hand, you will hear lots of accounts of how well the "rear wrist lock control hold" worked on the suspect.

To somewhat paraphrase Mr. Valadez, relying on technique will prove unsuccessful, while applying the principles of aikido to an attack will result in a proper response. the principles of your training in aikido will always lend themselves to proper response, while "techniques" only work in certain circumstances.

You'll get a lot of defensive tactics instruction in the Louisiana State Police Academy and that will be beneficial to you. Your study of aikido will serve you well, but will take time to learn and become competent. Relax and enjoy your study. You'll get in fights as a cop - if you use your head you'll be in fewer. Your biggest danger is the 4000 pound car you'll be driving. More of us have gotten killed and crippled in collisions than combat.

Michael

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2005, 10:25 PM   #9
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...321&sec=nation

Dear Forumers,

Check the above link out. During routine enforcement duties by officer from the Internal Trade Ministry, an unarmed pirated VCD seller was shot by the officers when the suspect put up a struggle to resist arrest. N.B. The officers are not even police personnel proper.

What is worse, is that the bullet has penetrated the body of the suspect and hit a nearby innocent bystander. Both victims are in critical condition and fighting for their lives. In defence of his action, the 48 year old officer claim that his team are attacked by baseball bats by the suspects and his horde.

In aikido, most if not all of the techniques can be applied quite effectively against a non-edged weapon. Just a hypothetical question, should the enforcement officers are taught basic arrest and restrainst technique, such blunder may be averted. What do you all think?

IMO, the trigger happy attitude of the enforcement plus the availability of lethal force makes a sickening combination.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2005, 03:41 AM   #10
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

I cannot comment on the case you mentioned since the word "struggle" does not give me much detail regarding the agression level of the suspect, however, I would say that there is indeed a relationship between how skilled one is in arrest and control techniques and how fast one escalates up the spectrum of "reasonable force."

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2005, 05:19 AM   #11
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,033
United_States
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote:
You'll get a lot of defensive tactics instruction in the Louisiana State Police Academy and that will be beneficial to you. Your study of aikido will serve you well, but will take time to learn and become competent. Relax and enjoy your study. You'll get in fights as a cop - if you use your head you'll be in fewer. Your biggest danger is the 4000 pound car you'll be driving. More of us have gotten killed and crippled in collisions than combat.
Michael
unfortunately true, so many officers seem to be hurt by being run into.

One of my most dedicated students is a police officer who continues to suffer back problems because he was rear ended about 7 years ago by some drunk teenagers in a horrific crash.


as to the shooting incident posted, I don't see it productive to comment before an investigation is done. I will say I find xuzen's signature line "Ki? Ki are for Sissies" a bit ironic considering Ki training is in my experience and others one of the things police officers find most immediately applicable to their work.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2005, 12:57 PM   #12
EJC
Location: Mass
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 7
United_States
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

I am a Police Officer in MA and I have seen many Police Departments in my state training in Aikido. I think this is because of not only its effectivness, but also that it is not perceived by the public as too excessive. In Police work we can not go up and round house kick someone in the head and we can not GNP them into the pavement. That is when the video tapes pop up, your PD is in a law suit and your out of a job.

I am also a member of a 120 Police Officer, Regional Response Team (RRT) that is responsible for covering crowd control and missing persons and I am also on that same Regional teams SWAT team made up of 30 Officers. We cover 50 towns in MA and have worked such events as the DNC in Boston and also the World Series (we were called in after the paintball incident).

I have been training in Aikido for 1 1/2 years and have used it effectivley many times. The RRT team and SWAT team I am on are all also being trained in Aikido by Sensei Jason Delucia. He teaches disarming techniques, take downs, wrist locks etc. all that has been proven very effective to both the 120 Officer RRT team and the 30 Officer Swat team.

If you are intersted you can even view some video footage of the Aikido Police training at his web site www.Aikidog.com. All the Officers are pleased to have this training because they now it helps keep them safe and out of the court rooms. I ordered a 5 viedeo set of Combat Aikido he sells in "Grappling Magazine" but I think you can also view that on his web site as well.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2005, 12:14 PM   #13
Factvideos
Dojo: Massachusetts Submission Academy
Location: Rochdale Ma.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1
United_States
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

Hi everyone, this is George Vranos. I am Police Officer, Defensive Tactics Instructor, and Field Training Officer in Massachusetts. I have 18 years on and still have to work night club details to pay the bills.
As a 145 lb street cop, I soon learned that I needed all the help I could get when it came to controlling combative people in the bar rooms and on the street. Aikido practitioners helped me a lot and I would be happy to answer any questions relating to law enforcement. As much as anyone else, I too, needed to know what aikido techniques could be used by police. I went everywhere for hard core realistic training and still do.

I was lucky enough to train with people like Jason Delucia of http://www.Aikidog.com when he was an active shootfighter. I would also endorse his expert instruction.

But before we talk about aikido techniques used by police, let's examine the dynamics of control and restraint in law enforcement.

Most subjects actually resist arrest without violence toward the officer, which means they are pulling away from the Officer in most cases. Many are reluctant to attack the Officer but some will if that's what it takes to escape arrest.
In my opinion, taking people into custody is a lot like being a professional kidnapper with subjects "flipping out" to get away. If he breaks your intitial grip and he is fully committed to escaping you he will look pretty much like some one that is on "fire" or has just stepped on a "bees" nest. They don't grab your shirt lapel with one hand, and the other hand by their hip while they look you square in the eyes. They explode like a bomb with their arms and legs flailing all over the place.
In this situation we have to do a few things before we can manipulate a joint. All at the same time we have to impede his escape, contain this explosive movement, and apply an Aikido technique.

This can all be done with one fast action control technique. Here is one example of how to make a basic aikido wrist lock work well on the street for police.
The subject tries to flee. The Officer can quickly blanket the subjects elbow with both hands while allowing the subject to pull the officer toward his escape route. The officer can initially allow the subject to pull the officer toward him. The officer is now raising his lead leg high bringing his shin sideways on the same plane as the ground. As the fleeing subject pulls the officer close, the officer is pulling the subjects arm away from the subjects body and driving his shin down on the subjects outer leg "nerve shot". This will fold the subjects leg bringing him to the ground. At that time the Officer is pulling him into a basic aikido gooseneck enhanced by a nerve attack between the thumb and the index finger. This is just one of many ways for an Officer to apply a basic aikido technique on the street.

The nerve attacks can enhance police aikido techniques, by weakening muscle groups, destraction, off balancing, and at times, full compliance to pain.

Thanks.....George
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2005, 12:50 PM   #14
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

Nice post George.

Generally though it becomes easy to apply joint locks when someone is resisting if the person doing the technique has enough knowledge of how to disrupt balance, move while keeping one's own balance and use the pull, push or turn of the subject to help in disrupting balance, allowing for whichever technique is most applicable based on the resisting motion.

Most folks who get problems trying joint locks on resistant folks experience it because they have failed to first distract the mental/physical structure with something like a balance breaking movement, strike etc.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2005, 03:29 PM   #15
dan guthrie
Dojo: Aikido of SLO
Location: Morro Bay
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 139
United_States
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

I work for a guy who was a cop in San Francisco for a few years and when I told him I was taking Aikido he told me it was good training.
The only Aiki related story he had, however, was taking a man into custody in a bar. The suspect was a big guy and told everyone he wasn't leaving until he finished his drink. Even though the suspect was seated on a barstool facing the bar, no cop knew what to do.
My boss walked over to his left side, slipped his right hand and forearm between the suspects left arm and left side and grabbed his hand, twisting it down but also lifting up. So when he stood up, the suspect's elbow was cradled by his elbow. As my boss walked out the front door, with the suspect on his right, the joint lock was hidden between them.

That's my 2 cents worth.

I've seen sankyo used on "Cops" the teevee show many times but not often enough. I can't watch anymore without shouting at the screen . . . "Nikkyo, you idiots . . . . get his shoulder on the ground first!!! . . . . crap, he's got a hold of your lapel, just grab his hand and step back/behind him and he'll fall forward!!!!"

Last edited by dan guthrie : 03-19-2005 at 03:32 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2005, 06:37 PM   #16
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,134
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

Hi George,

Ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo and gokyu are all pretty common. The SFPD case is simply a common variation of ikkyo and works really, really well.

Drunks, particularly drunk drivers were my most troublesome once they realized they were going to take the ride. I used a technique that always worked for me....

I would ask the suspect to take a final field sobriety test and ask him to clasp his fingers together in front of him (like holding a barrel in his arms), spread his feet widely, close his eyes and tilt his head back. Thinking he still had a chance to pass, he would follow my instructions pretty closely. I would grasp his interlocked fingers in my hand, step behind him and pull his arms back over his head into a cuffing position. The cuffs would be on before the suspect realized what was happening. On the one occasion when the individual started struggling before I could cuff him, I just continued pulling him backwards into his rear triangle and was then able to cuff him without futher ado. Worked for me and those I trained. Hope you can find it of value.

Stay safe,

Michael

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2005, 10:12 PM   #17
Hardware
 
Hardware's Avatar
Dojo: Ronin (sort of...)
Location: Prairies
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69
Canada
Offline
Re: actual techniques used by police

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...321&sec=nation

Dear Forumers,

Check the above link out. During routine enforcement duties by officer from the Internal Trade Ministry, an unarmed pirated VCD seller was shot by the officers when the suspect put up a struggle to resist arrest. N.B. The officers are not even police personnel proper.

What is worse, is that the bullet has penetrated the body of the suspect and hit a nearby innocent bystander. Both victims are in critical condition and fighting for their lives. In defence of his action, the 48 year old officer claim that his team are attacked by baseball bats by the suspects and his horde...
Access to the link was denied.

Multiple attackers, with even just one wielding a baseball bat, would be regarded as lethal force. I gather the subject who was shot had a baseball bat - hence he definitely was armed. Lethal force is always countered with lethal force. Period. Cops don't get paid to be sacrificial lambs.

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
...In aikido, most if not all of the techniques can be applied quite effectively against a non-edged weapon. Just a hypothetical question, should the enforcement officers are taught basic arrest and restrainst technique, such blunder may be averted. What do you all think?

IMO, the trigger happy attitude of the enforcement plus the availability of lethal force makes a sickening combination.

Boon.
It's your opinion, based upon a media account that this was a "blunder". I don't know where this incident occurred (the link doesn't work) but I take exception with your characterization of law enforcement officers as being trigger happy.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido Kelly Allen General 19 11-23-2007 04:24 PM
Gokyo-why? Steve Morabito Techniques 65 11-26-2006 06:18 PM
aikido and competition ewodaj General 129 08-10-2006 11:43 AM
Definition of "Dan"? H. Trinh Language 27 02-10-2006 03:54 PM
Randori kocakb General 26 06-20-2004 09:51 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:00 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate