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Old 03-18-2005, 02:23 PM   #26
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
...and having read all of these, how has it improved your aikido? To be clear, how has it enabled your aikido to move beyond the realm of what most everyone else was/is doing out there? Anyone?
My take on this has been touched upon by bloggers and pag: much of the spirituality of Osensei's aikido has been discarded. KOTODAMA was a part of this and is thus today, lacking that context, relegated to the status of an irrelevant curio. It's not unsimilar to Louis Farakhan's much abused numerology.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 03-18-2005, 02:31 PM   #27
rob_liberti
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Re: Kototama Question

Shaun,

Most of that is difficult to describe because they end up being feelings, but I can give one example. When I consider the kotodama sound of "AHH" while practicing technique, I found it really helped in a tangeable way with respect to the direction of my study. Keeping both myself and the uke endlessly expanding throughout the technique has been quite helpful to me personally. Especially in ikkyo (as opposed to shoving the person's hand down).

What are your thoughts Shaun? Everyone else?

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 03-18-2005 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 03-19-2005, 03:43 PM   #28
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote:
Well, it has not hurt it any

Actually, reading or obtaining any knowledge will not improve anything - what makes a difference is what action is done with that knowledge.
Um... Well, while I believe the first part of your answer to be a bit glib, the second part has me want to know what you have done with that knowledge. Of course, my original point in asking was to point out that if your aikido hasn't moved off the scale, perhaps you may want to consider that the knowledge you believe you have gained may not be much of anything at all.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote:
The information contained in those books are individual perceptions and believes of the authors and can only serve as insights into what Kototama meant to them.
Great, but what does this have to do with what kotodama might really be, and what it was for O-Sensei and his aikido?

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote:
I believe each individual needs to establish their own beliefs on what it is that motivates their life. If we can share some of the beliefs of others who have gone before us, fine - but the true motivators can only be found deep within oneself.
Agreed, of course, it seems that the original poster was asking a question about Steven's version of Kotodama, which is markedly different from what O-Sensei was doing. Unfortunately, there isn't anyone readily available whose thoughts on kotodama have enabled them, or anyone else for that matter, to gain any real-world enhancements beyond what was predictable for them to achieve having not spent countless hours chanting at the universal indifference to their efforts. If you ask me, perhaps this would signify that they may have missed the mark completely, basically espousing a mere empty ritual with the appearance of something otherworldly. At least they sold some books though, poor trees.

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Old 03-19-2005, 04:30 PM   #29
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Kototama Question

Hi Don,

My comments follow yours...

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
My take on this has been touched upon by bloggers and pag: much of the spirituality of O-Sensei's aikido has been discarded.
Yes, and the republicans want to turn back the clock to when women couldn't vote. However, in the former case is that really an improvement? I believe it is simply a depletion of the center or removing the heart of the art. I read time and time again how O-Sensei didn't make any sense, or how he didn't leave a specific method of study for others to achieve similar goals. However, I am sure you would agree, just because 99.99% of the people don't seem to know where to look, are too lazy to look and wouldn't know what to do should they happen to actually find what they keep insisting doesn't exist, doesn't mean that .01% of those might actually can get passed the commercial misinformation propagated by the numerous books and tiresome lectures found online. Interestingly these are postulated by individuals whom if were correct in their assumptions would actually rule out O-Sensei's development of the art, itself. Yet, he did, in fact develop something that had not come into existence before. Was it kotodama and Misogi? I don't know. But what I do know is that O-Sensei said that it was.

From where I am standing O-Sensei made quite a bit of sense, and I didn't read any of those confounding books. I haven't been standing in waterfalls shouting ha! eee-aaaaay! Nor have I been spinning a jo in the air screaming Suuuuuuuu-uuuuu, or what have you. There is no need. Should one actually follow the process of Masagatsu-Agatsu-Katsuhayahi, the one laid out by O-Sensei and transmitted to several individuals from what I have been told, at least one individual that little ole me has even been able to uncover, and get to know, one would have a clear path, albeit a long one, upon which to train themselves.

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
KOTODAMA was a part of this and is thus today, lacking that context, relegated to the status of an irrelevant curio. It's not unsimilar to Louis Farakhan's much abused numerology.
Um, perhaps you may be revealing a bit too much here, but.... I am not familiar with any power that Mr. Farrakhan actually developed using his system, regardless of the nature or ultimate truth upon which said system my be based. O-Sensei stands way above scores of other individuals, and this is due to something. You may call it irrelevant curio, but I would ask you if you might choose to reconsider. Perhaps its relevance is as illusive as ones ability to decipher the simple truth of what kotodama really is. I mean could you imagine searching a haystack for "something" not knowing even what the something actually was? I wouldn't expect that anyone would actually find much of anything, or conversely, they might find a whole slew of irrelevant things, to use your term. However that needle that lay buried and hidden is still as important today as it was when O-Sensei was alive. We are going to find that we each need that needle to stitch together the fabric of the art we say we are studying. Without it, we will merely be left with the current world-wide parade of Aikidoka all clad in the Aikidoka's new clothes. Oops!


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Old 03-19-2005, 04:39 PM   #30
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Shaun,

Most of that is difficult to describe because they end up being feelings, but I can give one example. When I consider the kotodama sound of "AHH" while practicing technique, I found it really helped in a tangible way with respect to the direction of my study. Keeping both myself and the uke endlessly expanding throughout the technique has been quite helpful to me personally. Especially in ikkyo (as opposed to shoving the person's hand down).

What are your thoughts Shaun? Everyone else?

Rob
Mr. Liberti,

Thank you for your clear description. I have several questions:

1. Do you understand why the sound does that?

2. If yes, then are you able to apply that principle to all of your techniques?

3. If yes, then are you able to extrapolate the meaning and relevance of the additional sound currents and also apply these in a dynamic manner.

4. If yes, have these principles exponentially elevated your techniques such that if you did not use said principles your technique would appear empty or even depleted by comparison?


.

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Old 03-20-2005, 08:43 AM   #31
gregstec
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Um... Well, while I believe the first part of your answer to be a bit glib, the second part has me want to know what you have done with that knowledge. Of course, my original point in asking was to point out that if your aikido hasn't moved off the scale, perhaps you may want to consider that the knowledge you believe you have gained may not be much of anything at all.



Great, but what does this have to do with what kotodama might really be, and what it was for O-Sensei and his aikido?.
I want to thank you for taking an interest in my comments. I am sorry to have appeared glib, it was not my intention. As far my Aikido moving off the scale, that all depends on where it was initially in reference to a scale. There are many things that can affect one's Aikido at any given moment. Having just recently read Inochi, I am still digesting what it appears to mean and I have not come up with any personal determinations at this point. Do I believe the 50 sounds of the Kototama are the lost secret to the meaning of the universe? No, not at this point. However, I do not disbelieve it either - I just do not have enough knowledge or personal experience to make that determination.

If O Sensei (or anyone else for that matter) believed that the utterance of a sound could help them stay relaxed and centered or improve their inner strength, then yes that belief is true to them. The belief could consist of the detailed 50 sounds in the Kototama, or it could be some rambling lyrics from some obscure rock and roll song. As long as the individual believes it will make a difference, it will make a difference for them. This I believe is the true secret to the Kototama - If one truly believes in it, like O Sensei did, then it will impact their Aikido, and everything else they do as well.

From your posts, it appears you are very knowledgeable in this area. Therefore, could you please share what your beliefs are and how they have impacted your Aikido.

Thanks

Greg Steckel
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Old 03-20-2005, 01:35 PM   #32
Don_Modesto
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Re: Kototama Question

Hi, Shaun,

Thanks for your detailed reply. Comments follow.
Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
I believe it is simply a depletion of the center or removing the heart of the art.
Yes. Something was lost with Osensei, but I'm not sure that all was worth keeping. We remember Newton as a titan for just 10% of what he did. The magical/alchemical stuff has been jettisoned. I suspect some or much of Osensei is of the same nature, better jettisoned. He seemed marvelously egalitarian about his religious beliefs, pushing them on no-one (although lecturing from that point of view incessantly). He probably expected fold to insert their own beliefs and interpretations.

Kotodama probably has some value as spiritual discipline, as inspiration. I think it has no place as explanation, however. Stevens pointing out that the KATAKANA EIGO rendering of Christ as KIRI SU TO, "one who has cut off all ties" [to the profane world(presumably)] is a gimcrack non sequitur: Capital "B".
Quote:
I read time and time again how O-Sensei didn't make any sense, or how he didn't leave a specific method of study for others to achieve similar goals. However, I am sure you would agree, just because 99.99% of the people don't seem to know where to look, are too lazy to look and wouldn't know what to do should they happen to actually find what they keep insisting doesn't exist, doesn't mean that .01% of those might actually can get passed the commercial misinformation propagated by the numerous books and tiresome lectures found online.
Maybe. But maybe if it quacks like a duck...it actually is a duck. In his virulent attack on the postmodern excesses of the Modern Language Association--which being not unsimilar to the strategies of KOTODAMA--physicist Alan Sokal relates the story of a highly educated mathematician thinking he didn't understand when literary theorists started throwing around mathematical concepts. He couldn't understand them because the math didn't match the math he'd done. In fact, the writers were faking it but the mathmetician lacked the "closed mindedness" to blame them.

I don't mean that Osensei was deliberately faking anything, but geez, look at the company he kept, the enterprises he supported, and the ludicrous expeditions he went off on during his life. Perhaps for all his wonderful enlightenment, he wasn't the most sophisticated individual to be patterning your life after.
Quote:
Interestingly these are postulated by individuals whom if were correct in their assumptions would actually rule out O-Sensei's development of the art, itself.
Nineteenth century scientist Ernst Haeckel believed that embryology was a map of a species' evolution. He found a stage in human embryos which led him to predict the existence of a species theretofore unknown to us and, indeed, one was found. But that we found one doesn't mean that Haeckel's explanation was right. As it turns out, the ontogeny recapitulating phylogeny thing can't work because evolution occurs at the beginning of the life cycle, at the end, AND in the middle. The "new form" was irrelevant as it could have been an adaptation to the womb and not the external environment. Haeckel was successful in predicting a species but for the wrong reasons his brilliant explanation is completely wrong. Osensei was successful in creating something wonderful, but he might not be the best person to explain it.
Quote:
I am not familiar with any power that Mr. Farrakhan actually developed using his system, regardless of the nature or ultimate truth upon which said system my be based.
He sure had the power to inspire ridicule. But he has typically been judged by outsiders, a situation not suffered to the same degree with this small pond of aikido. When outsiders do take a look, they can be pretty scornful, and that may be healthy. See Harry Cook's comments (A Precise History of Shotokan Karate) on Inoue's rendering of circle, triangle, square in Stanley's interview.
Quote:
We are going to find that we each need that needle to stitch together the fabric of the art we say we are studying. Without it, we will merely be left with the current world-wide parade of Aikidoka all clad in the Aikidoka's new clothes. Oops!
Or, as Heraclitus had it, you can't step twice into the same river. Osensei's aikido is long gone. Long live aikido.

I take your point, Shaun, but there have been remarkable people who became that way sans Kotodama. If there's something there to be mined, I'll be interested to hear about it. But moving forward has integrity, too. Keep me posted.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 03-20-2005, 07:12 PM   #33
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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Re: Kototama Question

Hi,
A couple comments,

Carlos bought one of John Stevens` books and has an interest in Kototama. Rob cautions him (us?) about the book saying that there are mistakes in it. Yet Rob doesn`t give any explanation. So that leaves us with the question of who is Rob Liberti and does he know more about the subject than J. Stevens. I think the post was a bit irresponsible of Rob and not in line with the usual high quality of his posts. J. Stevens, for some reason, comes under heavy fire on the internet. If it prompts debate and the exchange of info, I think it is a good thing. Don Modesto, for example, has been critical of Prof. Stevens, but Don always writes why. We can take what Don writes and look at the books and see if it jibes. If there is just the comment that J. Stevens is wrong, there is nothing to do with that comment.

As for the Kototama and Prof. Stevens, his main two resources seem to be the books and tapes of the Founder`s talks plus what J.S. learned personally from Rinjiro Shirata. As far as I can tell, what is written in "Secrets.." is what Ueshiba believed explained through the filter of John Stevens. In contrast, "The Essence of Aikido" is what O`Sensei taught. "Essence" is a difficult book, and this seems to be one reason JS wrote "Secrets", to explain it in somewhat clearer terms. Of course, this means the ideas are going to be watered down.

But is this a problem? My third point is that it isn`t due to what I personally learned from Stevens Sensei. I once asked some detailed questions about the meaning of the kototama, and Sensei told me that the meaning of the kototama that he could explain to me would not be the true meaning. He said that by studying, practicing, and reflecting on the kototama, the meaning would come to me. So my advice to Carlos (or anyone else) is to go somewhere where you would feel comfortable making strange sounds and try vocalizing the sounds. See how they affect you. Keep reading all the books you can find on the subject. Try to meet John Stevens and ask him questions. Try to avail yourself of Shaun`s "opportunity." Take singing lessons, maybe. And go back to vocalizing the sounds on your own again seeing how they affect you.

Sorry about the length.

Charles
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Old 03-21-2005, 01:38 PM   #34
Don_Modesto
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
So my advice to Carlos (or anyone else) is to go somewhere where you would feel comfortable making strange sounds and try vocalizing the sounds. See how they affect you. Keep reading all the books you can find on the subject. Try to meet John Stevens and ask him questions. Try to avail yourself of Shaun`s "opportunity." Take singing lessons, maybe. And go back to vocalizing the sounds on your own again seeing how they affect you.
Thoughtful post. Nice.

I'd just add that you might take in a seminar with Gleason, too. He brings it across more accesibly in person than I got it through his book.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 03-21-2005, 03:21 PM   #35
rob_liberti
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Re: Kototama Question

Charles, I have no nefarious scheme here. Feel free to disregard my caution. I do have every intenion of supporting my claim fully when I time permits; I simply cannot help it that the subject is incredibly merky. I appreciate that you feel I usually write high quality posts.

Shaun, I'm not ignoring your post, I am simply out of time at the moment.

Rob
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Old 03-22-2005, 07:11 AM   #36
rob_liberti
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Re: Kotodama Question

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Mr. Liberti,

Thank you for your clear description. I have several questions:
You may certainly call me Rob if you like. Also, if you would like to be called Mr. Ravens, that is perfectly fine with me.

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
1. Do you understand why the sound does that?
My working theory when you apply kotodama to aikido is that physical movements of the body have certain vibrations. If you scale that vibration to the audible range, you might hear with your ears what your body already feels. For instance, I've never heard anyone yawn and say "EAUUU" or anything other than "AHH" - even monkeys...

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
2. If yes, then are you able to apply that principle to all of your techniques?
To my way of thinking, certain feelings don't have good names. In that particular example, if something doesn't feel quite right, I might start thinking about that sound which will act as a mental pointer to help me bring the feeling associated with that sound into focus which will tend to help me stay on track of attempting to manifest principle by means of doing technique. Am I able to apply this to all of my technique? - Well I'm not perfect so probably not - and there are many other feelings besides that one to any technique.

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
3. If yes, then are you able to extrapolate the meaning and relevance of the additional sound currents and also apply these in a dynamic manner.
Certainly not all of them. Not to as obvious of a tangible result as "AHH". SU, KA, RA, and MU have been helpful to me in terms of connecting to some of the primitive feelings associated with ikkyo. I'd say I can apply some of these in a dynamic manner. I still have a long way to go and while I remain passionate, I'm not in any particular rush.

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
4. If yes, have these principles exponentially elevated your techniques such that if you did not use said principles your technique would appear empty or even depleted by comparison?
In a sense I'd say so, personally. I'd say that it has helped me the most in that it gives me pointers that allow me easier access to feelings that otherwise wouldn't have names (and therefore wouldn't have pointers easily available to them). I prefer to learn on all of the modalities. I think I could learn just as well devoid of a lot of the different things which are part of my training - probably just not as efficiently.

It is possible that O-sensei taught some students wrong as a joke.

Rob
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Old 03-23-2005, 10:06 AM   #37
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Nor have I been spinning a jo in the air screaming Suuuuuuuu-uuuuu, or what have you.
Interesting...I just saw a video clip of Hikitsuchi Sensei doing much the same...would your statement apply to him as well? Just currious...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 03-23-2005, 03:57 PM   #38
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Interesting...I just saw a video clip of Hikitsuchi Sensei doing much the same...would your statement apply to him as well? Just currious...
Hi Ron,

Well, like I said, it doesn't really matter. Had I been doing said jo-waza it wouldn't mean I knew anything, had extracted the significance of the "su" kotodama, nor would it be indicative that I had not. With regards to Hikitsuchi Sensei, I have no doubts whatsoever. Did you think I did? Do you? In any case, what was it that you were implying with your question? Just curious...



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Old 03-23-2005, 06:16 PM   #39
Mike Sigman
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Thank you for your clear description. I have several questions:

1. Do you understand why the sound does that?

2. If yes, then are you able to apply that principle to all of your techniques?

3. If yes, then are you able to extrapolate the meaning and relevance of the additional sound currents and also apply these in a dynamic manner.

4. If yes, have these principles exponentially elevated your techniques such that if you did not use said principles your technique would appear empty or even depleted by comparison?.
Shaun... we've all been waiting for days. Could you answer your own questions, please?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-23-2005, 06:46 PM   #40
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Shaun... we've all been waiting for days. Could you answer your own questions, please?

Mr. Sigman,

I thought it clear that these were my questions and were therefore not posed to me. I asked it of Mr. Liberty with regards to something he was experiencing to initiate a line of thinking for him, not because I really wanted, or even needed to know his responses, although having shared them, we are all the wiser as to where he finds himself at the moment. I think it also clear that since I initiated the line of thinking here what my own answers would be. But of course, you already knew that, right?



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Old 03-23-2005, 07:13 PM   #41
Mike Sigman
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
I thought it clear that these were my questions and were therefore not posed to me. I asked it of Mr. Liberty
I admit this tickles me... "Mr. Liberty".
Quote:
with regards to something he was experiencing to initiate a line of thinking for him, not because I really wanted, or even needed to know his responses, although having shared them, we are all the wiser as to where he finds himself at the moment. I think it also clear that since I initiated the line of thinking here what my own answers would be. But of course, you already knew that, right?
Actually, no... I don't really know if it's clear what your answers would be. I just re-looked and it's certainly not clear, so I'm asking as politely as possible if you would answer the same questions you asked.

Many thanks.

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-23-2005, 07:47 PM   #42
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I admit this tickles me... "Mr. Liberty".
Um, why does a careless spelling mistake need re-mentioning?


Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Actually, no... I don't really know if it's clear what your answers would be. I just re-looked and it's certainly not clear, so I'm asking as politely as possible if you would answer the same questions you asked.
...Well, politely or not makes no difference to me. I tend to reply to people regardless of there level of politeness.

If I ask you if you find that one and one are two, there is a good chance that I may already be thinking along those lines. Besides, what would you get out of knowing what my answers are. If your stand is that a man should answer all of the questions he asks of another, then please feel right at home and answer away... I can only say that should one take that to an extreme, one would find themselves quite unnecessarily busy.

In any case, should you post a compelling enough reason, or share with us how the knowing of any of this would improve upon your own training, I might be more motivate, or even be interested enough to restate the obvious, as apparent as it seems not to be... or is it? Huh?



.

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Old 03-23-2005, 08:06 PM   #43
Mike Sigman
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
If I ask you if you find that one and one are two, there is a good chance that I may already be thinking along those lines.
Actually, from the way you asked Rob the question, I felt it was pretty obvious that you were thinking along those lines, so after Rob politely answered your questions, I simply asked in order to see your answers.
Quote:
In any case, should you post a compelling enough reason, or share with us how the knowing of any of this would improve upon your own training, I might be more motivate, or even be interested enough to restate the obvious, as apparent as it seems not to be... or is it? Huh?
Hmmmmmm. I'm not sure how all those questions about my motives and an affirmation of what the anwers would do for me are pertinent. You asked the questions, Rob answered, and I thought it might be polite to express an interest in your views. Not to mention that I'm genuinely curious to hear your answers.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-23-2005, 08:29 PM   #44
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Not to mention that I'm genuinely curious to hear your answers.

Mr. Sigman,

I thank you for your genuine curiosity. I guess at this point, for the sake of clarity mind you, I will say that I choose to pass on your invitation. However, should you decide to politely post your own answers, I am sure it would be a positive for the thread on the whole.



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Old 03-23-2005, 08:38 PM   #45
Mike Sigman
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
I thank you for your genuine curiosity. I guess at this point, for the sake of clarity mind you, I will say that I choose to pass on your invitation. However, should you decide to politely post your own answers, I am sure it would be a positive for the thread on the whole.
Well, I'm a little uncertain why you won't "restate the obvious". I don't personally think the reasons are obvious, but then I might be missing the obvious.

I think the answers for what these things are is fairly obscure, Shaun, and that they go back to antiquity... before the Chinese learned from travelling Indian Buddhist monks..., but at the same time there is an honest function to these things and I was surprised when you indicated that you knew. It would give me renewed respect for your knowledge if you were to even post a hint.

Kind Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-23-2005, 09:48 PM   #46
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, I'm a little uncertain why you won't "restate the obvious". I don't personally think the reasons are obvious, but then I might be missing the obvious.
sometimes this can happen.


Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I think the answers for what these things are is fairly obscure, Shaun, and that they go back to antiquity...
Obscure? Depends on where you hang out. As far as how it may be, I don't see how that applies.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
before the Chinese learned from travelling Indian Buddhist monks..., but at the same time there is an honest function to these things and I was surprised when you indicated that you knew.
Well, when you take into account the principle of synchronicity, it becomes clear that the knowledge of which you speak did not travel in the linear path to which you so often ascribe. As for your surprise, you may also be surprised to know how much else there is to know, and even more surprised who knows it and is sharing it somewhat openly... and who does not and therefore can not.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It would give me renewed respect for your knowledge if you were to even post a hint.
Well, thank you for the opportunity, but alas, once again, I am not out to gain anyone's respect, be it misplaced or otherwise. In the end though, since you seem to be saying that you already know all about the thing you keep asking me to talk about, I just don't get the point of any of it.

I guess it might be helpful if you would choose to share what, exactly it is you study, and with whom and for how long... What I personally wouldn't mind knowing is if you already know all of this material, then why come to these boards in the first place? Not that we don't welcome you and all that, but it is a bit curious and all.



.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 03-23-2005 at 10:01 PM.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 03-24-2005, 06:39 AM   #47
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Hi Ron,

Well, like I said, it doesn't really matter. Had I been doing said jo-waza it wouldn't mean I knew anything, had extracted the significance of the "su" kotodama, nor would it be indicative that I had not. With regards to Hikitsuchi Sensei, I have no doubts whatsoever. Did you think I did? Do you? In any case, what was it that you were implying with your question? Just curious...
No, I had few doubts, but thought I would check. I think your words speak pretty much for themselves...as does your willingness to share what you've trained so hard to achieve...so I was a bit thrown off by some of the gratuitous .... comments.

No, I have no doubts about Hikitsuchi Sensei...not that I am in any position to truly say one way or the other...

I wasn't implying anything...but I do, as always, appreciate the forth coming insights.

Thanks,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-24-2005, 07:56 AM   #48
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
No, I had few doubts, but thought I would check. I think your words speak pretty much for themselves...as does your willingness to share what you've trained so hard to achieve
Thank you for your comments. As I had earlier indicated, if you are interested in some of the things that I have mentioned in various threads, I would like to contact you privately with an opportunity in which you may be interested. Please send me a private message with you phone number and the best time to contact you so that we may discuss this directly.


Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
...so I was a bit thrown off by some of the gratuitous .... comments.

gra•tu•i•tous - adj.
1. Given or granted without return or recompense; unearned.
2. Given or received without cost or obligation; free.
3. Unnecessary or unwarranted; unjustified: gratuitous criticism


Okay, presuming that you were referring to item number 3, above it may seem to be that I was, indeed, criticizing something, or someone. If that is the case, and that on first reading and you or anyone else did read it that way, let me step forward and say then that I truly apologize, as that is not how I meant to sound... in this case, anyway. However, if you would reread my statements, they are perhaps better understood as a method of inquiry, but not that of my own seemingly selfish curiosity, as in the case of Mr. Sigman. For me, I was simply asking Mr. Liberti to ask himself these questions, so that by doing so he might gain a better understanding of what, if anything he actually knows. This particular style of inquiry is designed to encourage the thinking man to encounter a leap forward by being introduced to a progression of thought that he may not before have encountered or considered. The non-thinking man will either dismiss it, question the motives, or miss it entirely. To be clear, since I have no idea what Mr. Liberti (in this case) knows, I am certainly in no place to judge it or him, or criticize it or him at any level. As for who really is in a place to judge, it is all relative. One's teacher is certainly charged with judging the student on many levels and then figuring out how to move the student forward in the face of the student's shortcomings, but more importantly to move the student forward in spite of the teacher's own prejudices, justified, or otherwise. Wouldn't you agree?



.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 03-24-2005, 08:04 AM   #49
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
....selfish curiosity, as in the case of Mr. Sigman.
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Old 03-24-2005, 08:08 AM   #50
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
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Re: Kototama Question

Quote:
One's teacher is certainly charged with judging the student on many levels and then figuring out how to move the student forward in the face of the student's shortcomings, but more importantly to move the student forward in spite of the teacher's own prejudices, justified, or otherwise. Wouldn't you agree?
Yep. No harm, no foul...or was that fowl...oh, never mind...

Quote:
I would like to contact you privately with an opportunity in which you may be interested. Please send me a private message with you phone number and the best time to contact you so that we may discuss this directly.
Message underway...

Quote:
However, if you would reread my statements, they are perhaps better understood as a method of inquiry, but not that of my own seemingly selfish curiosity, as in the case of Mr. Sigman.
Well, Mike does have his own unique style of interaction on these boards. Let's just say he and I do not always agree on the pre-requisites of fruitfull conversation...or that just because you've invested a lot of time in one method of training that doesn't include a focus on 'ki', that you aren't necessarily doing aikido. But I have found his perspectives and information to be usefull...and if you think about it, he usually gives a lot more info than he gets. I think being with the two of you in the same venue would be very usefull to someone like myself. But that's just my opinion...I guess I'm pretty easy going about that sort of thing.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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