Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-12-2005, 08:11 PM   #51
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,122
Offline
Re: I am not a samurai

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
IIRC, both Threadgill and Friday have weighed in on this (not that sure about Threadgill), should you want to do the searches.

Hope this helps.
They don't practice aikido.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2005, 08:22 PM   #52
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: I am not a samurai

I didn't know one needed to practice Aikido to understand Budo history. Silly me.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 06:23 PM   #53
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,015
Japan
Online
Re: I am not a samurai

No Larry Szczepan is completely correct on this one. These two gentleman were brought in regarding whether or not Aikido is a form of jujutsu and their knowledge of Aikido is limited by experience.

I've called Toby on what used to be a very narrow and selective view what was jujutsu and aikijujutsu or more to the point why Aikido was not either of these while his art was. He appears to have modified his view somewhat but even so his views are often quite typical of the Koryu Gendai divide - false though that is IMHO.

Just by historical and technical antecedent alone.

Daito-ryu jujutsu became quite recently Daito-ryu aikijujutsu and then even more recently as Ueshiba M. distanced himself from his teacher the various forms leading up to the name Aikido.

Tomiki K. considered both Judo and Aikido derived from and hence forms of Jujutsu. Shishida Shihan, Professor of Budo History at Waseda Daigaku, is of a similar view but then he was Tomiki K.'s student. Toby and Karl have a certain amount of experience (quite a bit actually) but frankly their major draw is that they write in English.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 07:17 PM   #54
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: I am not a samurai

Makes sense Peter.

I am aware of only some of Toby's writings and have heard about Friday being mentioned a few times, so I know even less of is writings. I know Toby had some "interesting" concepts on what is and is not Aikijujutsu etc. Of course I agree with Tomiki (and hence Shishida's) take on the concept of Aikido's link to Jujutsu as well. Just makes logical sense to me.

Though I still don't see why one needed to practice Aikido in particular in order to understand Budo history.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 07:36 PM   #55
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,015
Japan
Online
Re: I am not a samurai

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Though I still don't see why one needed to practice Aikido in particular in order to understand Budo history.
Well my point and also I am sure that of the Evil Dr. S. is that understanding of Aikido and its place in Budo is better understood by people who have some experience of Aikido.

Conversely I also believe that an understanding of Aikido's place in Budo is best served by those with at least some experience outside of Aikido.

I have heard as many ripe statements from cloistered Aikidoists as to what Budo is and isn't as I have from people who have observed one or two classes at the local Y and go on to make really off the wall generalizations as to what Aikido can and can not accomplish.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 07:44 PM   #56
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: I am not a samurai

Quote:
Well my point and also I am sure that of the Evil Dr. S. is that understanding of Aikido and its place in Budo is better understood by people who have some experience of Aikido.
Well yes and no. It depends on the Aikido and reason for training imho. Not all pursue it as Budo as we know.

Quote:
I have heard as many ripe statements from cloistered Aikidoists as to what Budo is and isn't as I have from people who have observed one or two classes at the local Y and go on to make really off the wall generalizations as to what Aikido can and can not accomplish.
Absolutely true.

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 03-14-2005 at 07:47 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 07:53 PM   #57
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Online
Re: I am not a samurai

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Though I still don't see why one needed to practice Aikido in particular in order to understand Budo history.
LC
Well, I suppose it depends partly on the level of detail assumed and partly on the explanatory power of the framework one uses.

Were I to attempt a history of katori-shinto ryu, for example, on the model of Karl Friday's "Deity and the Sword", I think it would suffer because I do not practise the art, especialy if a central focus was the detailed discussion of the evolution of techniques. On the other hand, the fact that I do not practise the art would allow more freedom from bias, especially if the history had to deal with the fragmentation of the art from a central source.

Similarly, in a history of aikido, a detailed discussion of how individual disciples adapted, discarded or otherwise modified the techniques they learned directly from the Founder, would probably require some hands-on experience, both for the the writer and reader.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 08:06 PM   #58
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,015
Japan
Online
Re: I am not a samurai

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
On the other hand, the fact that I do not practice the art would allow more freedom from bias, especially if the history had to deal with the fragmentation of the art from a central source.
But not necessarily free from bias.

Using Toby as an example (whose writing has evolved positively in my opinion) there were quite a few assumptions of Aikido when compared to his own art in his earlier writing. The bias I felt has as much to do with misunderstanding as pride in his own art. He has become much more even handed and analytical lately. This probably has to do with his exposure to some of the Aikido people in Colorado including Seiji Tanaka (ex-team captain at Waseada Daigaku under Tomiki K.).

You missed a great party Peter. Jun wimped out a little early and headed back to Helen's hospitality. I paid the price for continuing the next day.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 08:39 PM   #59
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: I am not a samurai

If I may, I think two kinds of bias are most relevant here. First, there is the bias by which several martial traditions carved out a new niche for themselves following Meiji. By this bias they attempted to make a distinction, one grounded in notions of superior/later and inferior/earlier, between them as "do" oriented and the other as "jutsu" oriented - respectively. Some early key figures in Aikido history were proponents of this view -- Kisshomaru comes to mind when he tried to say that Aikido's waza, unlike the waza from the arts that preceded it, used "locks" that functioned within the natural range of motion of an attacker's joints, etc.

As the decades have rolled by, and we are now in a new century, the second bias has come to us as a reversal of the first - it is almost like what Yoshida did with Honji-suijaku! Today, folks that employ this second bias still make use of a superior/inferior dichotomy but now they have reversed things so that "superior" is connected to what came earlier and "inferior" is connected to what came later.

Folks inside and outside of Aikido make use of either bias -- both biases are open to both "types" of practitioners. This is because both biases are about political economy and not about historical accuracy. In other words, they more about truth games, or battles over the right to determine "truth." For many in the Aikido community, it is important that some kind of rift occurred between what Osensei did and what came before him. Hence, we often see one make use of the first bias -- and everything thereafter is forced to fit with this position. For others in Aikido it is important that Osensei represent some sort of connection to what came before him -- hence we see the reverse position often spouted then -- at the cost of noting Aikido's uniqueness.

Historically, we would have to realize that there is not jujutsu and then there is Aikido. There is not Jujutsu, there are only jujutsu in the plural sense. In that way, it is philosophically impossible to use history to determine what is accurate and not accurate, without making use of either bias, when one is out to draw such clear lines of demarcation between two things/traditions. Historically, there are many jujutsu, and at one point all of them were in a constant state of evolution. Evolution, or rather constant advancement and/or adaptation, does not mark genesis -- it marks continuity. If one can leave the biases aside for a moment, and merely see jujitsu as "empty-handed techniques related to the warrior class of historical Japan," Aikido has to be understood as a type of jujutsu -- no matter how much we want to say it is an evolution of the latter. When we drop the first bias, we can even say the same thing about Judo -- which may be even more offensive to some, since Judo is one tradition that really made use of the first bias to gain its cultural foothold in time of radical transition.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 10:05 PM   #60
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,122
Offline
Re: I am not a samurai

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Though I still don't see why one needed to practice Aikido in particular in order to understand Budo history.
LC
I did practice with K.Friday at one of Koryu seminar. I made my opinion, but I'll never allow myself to comment on his art without minimum let's say 20 years of intensive practice.

I still firmly believe that to write/comment about aikido with deep sense one must practice seriously aikido minimum 20 years.

Last edited by NagaBaba : 03-14-2005 at 10:08 PM.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2005, 08:19 AM   #61
Mads Gabrielsen
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 4
United Kingdom
Offline
Smile Re: I am not a samurai

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Were I to attempt a history of katori-shinto ryu, for example, on the model of Karl Friday's "Deity and the Sword", I think it would suffer because I do not practice the art, especially if a central focus was the detailed discussion of the evolution of techniques.
Sorry to nitpick, but your attempt would suffer severely, as Karl Friday practices Kashima Shin Ryu, not Katori Shinto Ryu, and wrote "Legacies of the sword" not "Deity.." which was written by Otake (Soke of TSKSR) .

I apologize for my anal retentiveness and go back to my usual lurking .

Cheers,

Mads
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Seminar with Frank Doran, Shihan - Aug. 8-10, 2014 at Sunset Cliff's Aikido, near San Diego's finest beaches



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Samurai Saga with Toshiro Mifune Michael Hackett Open Discussions 2 10-07-2006 05:48 PM
Chief Samurai crbateman Humor 7 02-23-2006 07:16 PM
How Samurai i s aikido bindie32 Spiritual 61 02-11-2006 12:26 PM
Book: Zen Stories of the Samurai Neal Dunnigan Marketplace 1 05-02-2005 06:37 AM
Aikido and Samurai: a few questions Big Dave General 79 05-27-2004 01:05 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:17 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate