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Old 03-22-2005, 09:24 AM   #151
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

Although I actually sort of admire Shioda's analysis of the components of "Ki" and how he defines ki as a "balance" of those components, I don't fully agree with his analysis. There is a part of Ki/Qi that is approached through a type of conditioning to the body with deliberate breathing techniques and he doesn't address that aspect at all. However, because of the way they hold the hand in Yoshinkan, I have the suspicion that he knew something about that part of it.... I just can't be sure.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 03-22-2005, 09:25 AM   #152
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
When he was younger, Koichi Tohei could do at least two people in the jo demonstration. Perhaps Aikikai no longer does these types of demonstrations because they're concentrating on the martial aspects of aikido. However some people in the Ki Society still do these type of things.
Do you know if there are any film-clips of Tohei doing this, Ted? Thanks.

Mike
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Old 03-22-2005, 01:36 PM   #153
tedehara
 
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Do you know if there are any film-clips of Tohei doing this, Ted? Thanks.

Mike
Like you, my sensei was obsessed with the "jo trick". He and a friend lured K. Tohei to his friend's basement rec room, where they "just happened" to have a movie screen and projector with a film of O Sensei doing that demo. After showing Tohei the film, they asked him if he could also do that. Tohei replied, "Yes" and did it using both of them as uke.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 03-22-2005, 01:44 PM   #154
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
Like you, my sensei was obsessed with the "jo trick". He and a friend lured K. Tohei to his friend's basement rec room, where they "just happened" to have a movie screen and projector with a film of O Sensei doing that demo. After showing Tohei the film, they asked him if he could also do that. Tohei replied, "Yes" and did it using both of them as uke.
Ah, I see. So it's not on film anywhere? Shucks. And incidentally, I'm not obsessed with the jo-trick... I've been using the fact that many Aikidoists are obsessed with it as an entre' into some facts-digging. I sometimes show people how to do the front variant of the jo-trick as part of a series of explorations into jin-mechanics, but most of my focus has to do with more direct practices of the jin. I've told people in the past that Tohei could probably do the jo-trick, so it was nice to hear some corroboration.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:25 PM   #155
tedehara
 
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
...And incidentally, I'm not obsessed with the jo-trick...Mike
Maybe you should be obsessed.

At least my sensei can do it now with one person.

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Old 03-22-2005, 06:20 PM   #156
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
Maybe you should be obsessed.

At least my sensei can do it now with one person.
Good for him.... and I mean that. I tend to focus on a few other minor things in my own training. I'm slowly getting there, but I'm still an amateur.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-23-2005, 11:01 AM   #157
tedehara
 
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Good for him.... and I mean that. I tend to focus on a few other minor things in my own training. I'm slowly getting there, but I'm still an amateur.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
I remember hearing that he could do it, but it wasn't until this thread that I questioned him and saw him do it.

You have my email, so if you want to question him or see him, contact me and I'll try and arrange it. He'll also be at the Las Vegas seminar in June.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 03-23-2005, 07:20 PM   #158
sanskara
 
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

I had a fairly unknown fourth dan Ki Aikido instructor for a while that once fielded a challenge in a gym against two big weight lifters with the jo. He held the jo forward in standard defensive sword kamae. As we looked on, the two guys grabbed it from the front and attempted to push him backward. They pushed so hard the thick jo started to bow and make a cracking sound, but they couldn't budge him. After a minute or two, they were completely exhausted, out of breath, and couldn't push anymore. But they finally understood that there was something "strange" at work, and that a little respect was in order.

Of course, this instructor basically followed Koichi Tohei around everywhere he went back in the 60's and 70's, and taught Ki no shuren ho and Shin Shin Toitsu do exclusively through the 80's and 90's, with little regard for martial technique. For years, he would only let us practice Aikido technique in parts as Ki development exercises. We spent a whole year on 5th kyu techniques alone, as I recall.

Ironically, in many respects, this led to more martially effective Aikido than the "hard" mechanically oriented training I've encountered in other schools. Simply put, this guy knew his stuff, but will never be famous--as is often the case, as those focused on real development don't necessarily have the time or inclination for self-promotion.

But for those whose memory goes back far enough, his name is Larry Hudson, he still teaches a bit in the Bay Area, but mostly just rides motorcycles. Sometimes you have to promote those who won't promote themselves.

Regards,
James Bostwick
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Old 03-27-2005, 11:27 AM   #159
tedehara
 
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

That reminds me of my sensei. He was fourth dan when I became his student. While there were higher ranked instructors with fancy dojos, I realized he was the one I wanted to train with. I have not regretted that choice.

All of this talk of ki and kokyu is well and good. However it reminds me of a story about K. Tohei. He was asked by a man if this mind and body coordination was really worth it. He replied that if you use it everyday, then it was worth it. But if you never practice it, then it was worthless.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 03-27-2005, 01:34 PM   #160
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
All of this talk of ki and kokyu is well and good. However it reminds me of a story about K. Tohei. He was asked by a man if this mind and body coordination was really worth it. He replied that if you use it everyday, then it was worth it. But if you never practice it, then it was worthless.
Of course if you don't practice it correctly, you really don't get very far after years of practice, either. If you're doing Aikido, you have to do ki and kokyu with your Aikido or your Aikido doesn't get very good. If you just want to do ki and kokyu, you can do any of a number of exercises that don't require doing Aikido (or a lot of other martial arts), as well.

From "Total Aikido", page 13:

As you get older, your muscles weaken,
And you can no longer lift and pull.
In the end there's a limit to physical strength, no matter how you build it up.
That's why Ueshiba Sensei says that
Unlimited strength comes from breath power (kokyu ryoku).
In effect, it is based on natural phrinciples.
If the other person comes powerfully against you,
And you respond by simply taking his power into yourself,
There is no need for any effort.


Gozo Shioda Sayings (1)

The idea that Ki and Kokyu studies are an investment that pays off as you get older is a traditional Asian comment about those studies.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 03-27-2005, 04:16 PM   #161
tedehara
 
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Of course if you don't practice it correctly, you really don't get very far after years of practice, either...Mike
Maybe I should change that signature line. Seems nobody notices anyway.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 03-29-2005, 10:48 AM   #162
Mark Mueller
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

Interesting articles in light of the discussion here.....

http://www.channel4.com/entertainmen...rick/doll.html and

http://www.channel4.com/entertainmen.../planting.html
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Old 05-03-2005, 06:24 AM   #163
Leung Jan
 
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
"Mat time" won't really give it to you, either. Learning how to honestly move using your center and the jin forces requires re-training the way you move over a long period of time so that this form of power is instinctive and the subconscious will carry it for you automatically.

The whole body, down to the fingers, is moved and controlled in 2 related ways by the power of the middle region. If you've spent years practicing moving "the normal way", it's not an aid... it's actually a hindrance to any real success. If you think about it, you'll understand why Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua, etc., are done so very slowly for the first few years... it's to re-train the body movement before getting into techniques done with the wrong movement basics, etc.
I experienced the same...
I was training Aikido for 9 years and could find nobody to teach me how to move as a "unity" and use proper ki...so I quit practising and choos a chinese ultra hard style
But it was the same....you get only to some point and there are allways a very low number on people that move "different" and can do things that are beyond regular "mat time"...
one day at a workshop a high rank instructor came to me. he was 2 heads shorter then me and I thought to have an easy play...
when crossig his arms I suddenly realiezed something I remembered from my very first Aikido Sensei...there was it again...a certain feeling of emptiness when entering and he was able to move me where he wanted me to go...I could not help but follow
I stopped and asked him "what did you do? It felt like you where using Ki on me. I didn't know this art is using that kind of force."
He pulled me aside and said "Psst...be quiet....there are things not revealed to everyone in this art and I don't want to be assosiated with using/teaching chi". I was happy and disgusted the same time but I understood...and I asked him a last question "when it is an element of the art, how can I train chi?" and he said "just relex completly and practice your first form veeeery slowly, not like we do it in the class... and you will find out".

so I tried....and after almost 1 month my hands started to becomming warm and a week later my whole upper body was glowing during the form...this was the begining of my journey discovering my own chi/ki flow and unity within.
...energy always follows your mind and thought....
But this was not the only benefit I gained. By relaxing completly my outer muscles (the big known ones) I had at the begining a hard time staying in balance when moving my arms. This procedure trained my inner muscles and changed the way I move.
Bevor it was like upper body and lower body are two seperate parts and only through my stomach muscles I could move both parts together what looked like moving as ONE but wasn't!!!
and this was exact the same in Aikido in my 9 years ...when turning with Tenkan for example I copied the turning of Sensei but felt not whole. When checking the center by Ikkyo Undo I was always told that I was off center but could not figure out why...I tried my best to copy the posture 100% and followed hunderts of technical advices but this could not fix it....and because of this I had no foundation at all for doing real Aikido...
Now with the inner muscles built it was no longer a problem moving as ONE and staying centered...
so I phoned my old training partner who was now a leading DAN of the aikido dojo and told him I want to test with him Ikkyo Undo
He agreed an we met...
the impact threw him completly off center and I could control him like I wanted to...he was looking like a sheep not knowing what happened....hahaha
we are still good friends and I plan starting with Aikido again...this time with a better foundation and with love on my heart an the force of the universe and earth within....so I finally hope to find my

love & light to all of you
Jan

Last edited by Leung Jan : 05-03-2005 at 06:33 AM.

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Old 05-03-2005, 08:25 AM   #164
rob_liberti
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

I think you can develop this kind of thing by taking a lot of full body resistance type ukemi from a highly killed sensei, practicing your warm up exercises properly, and conentrating on kokyu in your movement during class. I don't know what your 9 years expereince in aikido was but my guess is that you probably weren't endlessly thrown skillfully in such a way that you had to contort and stretch from inside out to maintain full body connection/resistance. Regardless, if you found an alternative way of doing it, good for you.

Rob
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Old 05-03-2005, 09:38 AM   #165
sunny liberti
 
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Re: Ki Usage and O-Sensei: A Question

Quote:
full body resistance type ukemi from a highly killed sensei


S/he must be very skilled indeed having been so highly killed...

Sunny

A brave man dies once; cowards are always dying." --Moanahonga, Ioway
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