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Old 03-01-2005, 02:57 PM   #1
David Humm
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"Muto"

I wonder if any of the board's Japanese speaking or native speaking members might be able to explain the meaning of "muto" in relation or context of sword disarming application.

Many thanks in advance

Dave
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Old 03-01-2005, 04:20 PM   #2
p00kiethebear
 
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Re: "Muto"

No idea if this is right...

Mu - Zen concept of "nothingness"
To - another pronounciation of the kanji for "katana"

so.... "No sword" ? "Sword of nothing-ness" ? That's the closest i can come with the information you've given me. Anyone want to give it a better shot than i did?

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 03-01-2005, 04:21 PM   #3
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Re: "Muto"

If I remember correctly, the "Heiho Kadensho" (of the Yagyu Shinkage ryu) contained some interesting thoughts on the concept of "muto." I'll see if I can dig up my Japanese copy of the text tonight...

-- Jun

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Old 03-01-2005, 07:31 PM   #4
Don_Modesto
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Re: "Muto"

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
I wonder if any of the board's Japanese speaking or native speaking members might be able to explain the meaning of "muto" in relation or context of sword disarming application.
Working from memory here--always a scary thought--but didn't Tsukuhara Bokuden claim to be a student of Muto-ryu, "No Sword School", when he answered that famous challenge on the boat?

MUTO was a famous practice of the Yagyus, no? Wasn't Muneyoshi, at the time a famed swordsman himself, bested by Kamiizumi (?) without the latter having even taken up a blade--thus MUTO. The Yagyus then worked out a curriculum for it. IIRC, the old man guessed that as good as he was at it, he could do it successfully only 6 out of 10 times.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:51 AM   #5
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Re: "Muto"

Quote:
Nathan Gidney wrote:
No idea if this is right...

Mu - Zen concept of "nothingness"
To - another pronounciation of the kanji for "katana"

so.... "No sword" ? "Sword of nothing-ness" ? That's the closest i can come with the information you've given me. Anyone want to give it a better shot than i did?
In context of disarming, could this mean, "disarming with no sword?"...Just an initial thought that. If anyone can verify please do.

Thanks,
Bryce
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Old 03-02-2005, 10:33 AM   #6
Mark Barlow
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Re: "Muto"

I may be (probably am) wrong but from the explanation given to me by my Jujutsu and Aikijutsu instructors, muto was translated as "no sword" and implied an unarmed man facing a swordsman. The waza I'm familiar with all focus on taking your opponent's sword and either controlling him or turning his own sword against him.

Akayama Ryu includes a group of muto waza that come from Jikishinkage Ryu Aikijutsu.

Mark Barlow
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Old 03-02-2005, 11:10 AM   #7
akiy
 
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Re: "Muto"

Hi Dave,

I just took a few minutes to translate some of the relevant sections from the "Heiho Kadensho" on "Muto no Jutsu." These are taken from the book, "Budo Hidensho" which was written/compiled in 1968 by Yutaka (I think:豊 ) Yoshida. The original text of the "Heiho Kadensho" was written, according to the introduction, in 1632. The following is all my translation, so all errors in doing such are mine.

Loosely translated from the section, "The truths regading 'muto no jutsu'":
Quote:
Regarding the "Muto no jutsu" (the techniques/tactics of "muto"), it does not have to mean that we must always take away the opponent's sword. Also, it is not showing that one can take away the opponent's sword and make it into an achievement. It is the technique of not being cut when you do not have a sword yourself. The spirit of trying to take away the sword is not essential.

Some commentary on the text states (translated), "The "Muto Dori" of Yagyu Shingan ryu is rather famous, but there is no scarcity of the number of interpretations of its contents and meaning. [...] When faced with a person who is wielding a live blade and without the benefit of armor, the "muto no jutsu" required to take away the sword is, in essence, throwing yourself into the worst possible situation yet still being able to achieve victory."
Loosely translated from the next section, "Victory is in not getting cut":
Quote:
One does not have to always take away a sword of a person who does not want his sword taken. In other words, an opponent with his heart set on not having his sword taken has forgotten how to cut; because he is too busy thinking about not having his sword taken, he will be unable to cut. In this situation, this is victorious for us as we are not going to get cut. Taking away the opponent's sword is not the objective; rather, we are training not to be cut when we are without a sword.

The techniques of "muto" are not aimed at taking away the opponent's sword, but rather, to be able to use the available tools around you freely. If you have the ability to take away your partner's sword, then it will not matter what your partner wields. So, you may be able to face a sword-wielding opponent with just a fan and still come out victorious. This is the crux of the "muto no jutsu." If you are walking aroung with a bamboo cane without your sword, even if someone tries to cut you with a very long sword, you may be able to deflect with your cane, perhaps taking away your partner's sword or not as the case may be, be able to control your partner, and end up not getting cut; that is victory. Take this into consideration as the crucial meaning of the "muto no jutsu."
Loosely translated from "The core of muto is maai."
Quote:
The objective of "muto no jutsu" is not to take away your opponent's sword nor to cut your opponent. Take away the sword from your opponent when he has the intention of doing nothing else but cutting you, but do not have the intention of taking away the sword from the beginning.

The primary objective of "muto no jutsu" is to take proper maai. You need to understand at which distance you can be with a sword-wielding opponent and still not be able to get cut. If you understand this distance, then you will have no fear of being cut; also, if you know that you can get cut, you can work on the tactics opposing that situation. You will not be able to use "muto no jutsu" without being in the range of having one's flesh cut. You will only be able to take away the sword if you are in a position of being cut - in other words, by getting cut, you can take away the sword.
Loosely translated from "Enter under the handle of your opponent's sword":
Quote:
In "muto no jutsu," have the intention of using your bare hands as weapons when your partner is wielding a sword. Because a sword is long and your arms are relatively short, unless you enter into your partner's body to the point of being in danger of getting cut, this tactic will not work. However, is it really possible to take away your opponent's sword? In order to achieve that, you must enter through the distance of your opponent's blade and enter under your partner's sword handle. Of course, this may not be possible depending on the time and place, but unless you are willing to go into your partner's body, it will be impossible to take away the sword.
I have to say that the "Heiho Kadensho" is a very interesting text with good insights (in my opinion) into budo.

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

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Old 03-02-2005, 11:29 AM   #8
Mark Barlow
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Re: "Muto"

Jun,

Interesting and informative post. Thanks for taking the time to do the research.

Mark
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Old 03-02-2005, 01:47 PM   #9
Bronson
 
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Re: "Muto"

The book "The Life Giving Sword" is an English translation of the Heiho Kadensho for those of us who don't read Japanese. From what I remember (that's always shaky) the author's translations come pretty close to what Jun wrote.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:22 PM   #10
David Humm
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Re: "Muto"

Jun... Guys.

Great!! many thanks for the time you've spent on this, very helpful.

I wanted to present some thoughts on tachi-dori to my students, but more form the position of how bloody dire this type of situation would be if faced against a reasonably skilled Iaido/kenjutsu-ka.

The information you guys have clarifed has helped me write the paper which will accompany the practical lesson.

Many thanks again

Dave
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Old 03-02-2005, 11:03 PM   #11
David Humm
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Re: "Muto"

Jun, Guys,

In respect of the information in this thread, I have attached a .txt file containing the first draft of the document I wrote on the subject of tachi-dori.

I'd appreciate your comments (good or bad)

I meant to say that this document isn't intended to be definitive but accompanies a series of physical lessons

Regards

Dave
Attached Files
File Type: txt sword.txt (9.6 KB, 143 views)

Last edited by David Humm : 03-02-2005 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 03-03-2005, 08:36 PM   #12
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Re: "Muto"

Dave,

For what it is worth, I think this is a very nice piece. Thanks for sharing.

dmv

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Old 03-04-2005, 11:03 AM   #13
akiy
 
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Re: "Muto"

Hi Dave,

Nice article! Thanks for sharing.

-- Jun

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Old 03-04-2005, 03:57 PM   #14
Kent Enfield
 
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Re: "Muto"

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
I'd appreciate your comments (good or bad)
I think overall, it's pretty good, despite the spelling errors. In it, you also make a couple of assumptions about the mechanics of a sword cut. One is that there needs to be some sort of pulling motion. This is style specific. Some use pulling motion, some use levering motion, and some use pushing motion. There are probably styles that use mechanics not properly any of those three. The second is that the sword must be raised to cut: that the sword wielder starts in chudan. Though popular in kendo, it's not nearly as popular in many kenjutsu ryuha. And unless the sword wielder intends to thrust (which I've never seen as the attack in aikido tachidori), there's no reason to be in chudan when the other person is unarmed. Jodan, hasso, and their variants give almost as many options and eliminate the time spent on an upswing.

Kentokuseisei
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Old 03-04-2005, 06:24 PM   #15
David Humm
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Re: "Muto"

Kent, thanks for your comments.

Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote:
I think overall, it's pretty good, despite the spelling errors.
Hence the statement in my post earlier...
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
...the first draft of the document
Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote:
In it, you also make a couple of assumptions about the mechanics of a sword cut.
After over ten years Iai study I can assure you I haven't assumed anything, which is why I decided to write the document and present a series of lessons to my Aikido students on the subject of tachi-dori/Muto-dori.
Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote:
One is that there needs to be some sort of pulling motion. This is style specific. Some use pulling motion, some use levering motion, and some use pushing motion.
Do you study Iai or Kendo?
Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote:
... There are probably styles that use mechanics not properly any of those three.
If this is the case how can you say that I have made an assumption about the mechanics of a sword cut and then quote aspects which may or may not be used ? That's a bit of a contradiction.
Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote:
...The second is that the sword must be raised to cut:
Now you assume that all kirioshi begins in ken no kamae or chudan. Kessa giri can be anything other than "raised to cut" also; you make the assumption that the swordsman has his sword drawn, until the kissaki leaves the saya, no one other than the swordsman knows which direction the sword will take - following nukitsuki, kirioshi can be made through various targets ranging from the legs to the head.
Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote:
Though popular in kendo, it's not nearly as popular in many kenjutsu ryuha. And unless the sword wielder intends to thrust (which I've never seen as the attack in aikido tachidori), there's no reason to be in chudan when the other person is unarmed. Jodan, hasso, and their variants give almost as many options and eliminate the time spent on an upswing.
You will note if you read my article again that it isn't intended to be a definitive manual of muto no jutsu. Indeed it simply makes the point that muto is a last resort application that has high risks and requires commitment to achieve 'victory'. These points are reinforced in the translations kindly provided by Jun.

You will also note that I haven't mention specifics other than to comment on the "enter under the handle" being the same in principle to shomen uchi ikkyo; however, as a sword user I know all too well that a trained swordsman will adopt whatever posture/kamae which he/she feels affords the most advantage, even if this is used to 'fool' the unsuspecting opponent in to a sense of security.

Regards

Dave

Last edited by David Humm : 03-04-2005 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 03-04-2005, 08:42 PM   #16
Kent Enfield
 
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Re: "Muto"

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
After over ten years Iai study I can assure you I haven't assumed anything, which is why I decided to write the document and present a series of lessons to my Aikido students on the subject of tachi-dori/Muto-dori.
Which style of iai do you study? On the website you give as your homepage, there's batto-ho listed, but without any references to style or lineage. Is that what you're referring to by iai, or do you study something else as well? From what I remember of a thread over at e-budo, you don't actually do iaido, but use "iai" to refer to what you do as part of your aiki-ken.
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
Do you study Iai or Kendo?
Both actually, as well as a koryu bujutsu.
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
If this is the case how can you say that I have made an assumption about the mechanics of a sword cut and then quote aspects which may or may not be used ? That's a bit of a contradiction.
Because in your article you wrote:
Quote:
his posture will almost always be anything other than forward and the intention is to bring the sword very quickly back to one's centre.
There are styles wherein the intention is not "to bring the sword very quickly back to one's centre." I was pointing out that though, yes, that is one possibility, there are others. At least the way I read what you wrote, you limit yourself to the one. That is the implicit assumption I disagree with.
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
Now you assume that all kirioshi begins in ken no kamae or chudan.
No, I was responding to this:
Quote:
the speed at which a sword can be raised and then brought to bear is incredible
in which I thought you were assuming that a sword needs to be raised in order to be brought to bear. It doesn't need to be raised if it's already raised, a la jodan. If you meant something else, please explain it to me.
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
Kessa giri can be anything other than "raised to cut"
I am confused by this statement. Could you please rephrase it for me? In usual usage, kesa giri refers to a downwards diagonal cut, almost always to one going from cutter's right to left, and usually to one starting at the target's shoulder. You cannot make such a cut without the sword being raised, whether prior to the cut are as part of the same action.
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
also; you make the assumption that the swordsman has his sword drawn
I did. I can only think of two reasons for drawing your sword as part of, rather than prior to, an engagement. One is that you are not the one initiating the engagement. I.e. it is a self defense situation. The other is that you are trying to generate surprise attack in order to catch the other person with his sword undrawn. If the other person doesn't have a sword, the benefits of having a drawn sword far outweigh those of launching a surprise attack from close distance. That and the fact that I've not seen tachi-dori in aikido demonstrated against an attack from the draw were the reasons for my assumption.
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
until the kissaki leaves the saya, no one other than the swordsman knows which direction the sword will take
Ideally. But then, from jodan the same is true.
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
following nukitsuki, kirioshi can be made through various targets ranging from the legs to the head.
I don't see how you can kirioroshi (which is what I assume you mean: "kirioshi" would be "cut-push") to the legs, unless the receiver is in a really strange posture. Are you confusing "kirioroshi" ("cutting downwards" -- usually a vertical cut in iaido parlance) with "kiritsuke" ("cutting to advantage" -- in iaido jargon all the big, finishing cuts that come after nukitsuke)?
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
You will note if you read my article again that it isn't intended to be a definitive manual of muto no jutsu. Indeed it simply makes the point that muto is a last resort application that has high risks and requires commitment to achieve 'victory'.
Like I wrote above, I think the article is pretty good overall. I was just pointing out what I saw to be two implicit assumptions that aren't necessarily true, the removal of one of which would actually help your point.

Kentokuseisei
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Old 03-04-2005, 11:11 PM   #17
David Humm
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Re: "Muto"

Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote:
Which style of iai do you study? On the website you give as your homepage, there's batto-ho listed, but without any references to style or lineage. Is that what you're referring to by iai, or do you study something else as well? From what I remember of a thread over at e-budo, you don't actually do iaido, but use "iai" to refer to what you do as part of your aiki-ken.
I studied Muso Shinden Ryu through the BKA (British Kendo Association) albeit disjointed study due to the distance I had to travel to the dojo which later closed because the building housing the dojo burned down. I later continued my study through the aikido organisation to which I belong (having several BKA Yudansha within it) As I explained (when asked) on the e-budo site, My interest in Iai/batto is purely from a development of aikido. I do not at present have an Iai Sensei closer than 130 miles to me and thus I am simply continuing to train using the skills previous taught and applied to aikido. This is why there is no mention of grades or lineage on my website. I claim nothing. (despite being aggressively questioned via PM by one over zealous individual)

Quote:
Because in your article you wrote:
There are styles wherein the intention is not "to bring the sword very quickly back to one's centre." I was pointing out that though, yes, that is one possibility, there are others. At least the way I read what you wrote, you limit yourself to the one. That is the implicit assumption I disagree with.
Ok conceded however, as I've stated before, this document wasn't intended as definitive material, and I'm certainly not qualified to attest as such.
Quote:
...I was responding to this:
in which I thought you were assuming that a sword needs to be raised in order to be brought to bear.
That isn't the case, in the context of the translated material suggests that the safest place to enter is "under" the tsuka correct? thus at some point the tsuka must be raised having been drawn from the saya.
Quote:
...It doesn't need to be raised if it's already raised, a la jodan.
How does it get to jodan if it hasn't be raised at some point ? (lol) and my point being that if the sword is already at jodan at the point when muto dori is required, it would be very unsound of a person to attempt to close maai. I approached the article and the training accompanying it, from the perspective of giving the students "half" a chance of closing maai whilst the sword was brought from chudan to jodan.
Quote:
I am confused by this statement. Could you please rephrase it for me? In usual usage, kesa giri refers to a downwards diagonal cut, almost always to one going from cutter's right to left, and usually to one starting at the target's shoulder. You cannot make such a cut without the sword being raised, whether prior to the cut are as part of the same action.
I attempted (poorly obviously) to make the same point you made "ala jodan".
Quote:
I can only think of two reasons for drawing your sword as part of, rather than prior to, an engagement. One is that you are not the one initiating the engagement. I.e. it is a self defense situation. The other is that you are trying to generate surprise attack in order to catch the other person with his sword undrawn. If the other person doesn't have a sword, the benefits of having a drawn sword far outweigh those of launching a surprise attack from close distance.
and now we discuss semantics, my article was a generalism to which you wish to add specifics.
Quote:
That and the fact that I've not seen tachi-dori in aikido demonstrated against an attack from the draw were the reasons for my assumption.
So by this reasoning the method does not exist? Because you've not seen it.
Quote:
Like I wrote above, I think the article is pretty good overall. I was just pointing out what I saw to be two implicit assumptions that aren't necessarily true, the removal of one of which would actually help your point.
Kent, many thanks for your comments, I always appreciate constructive criticism, I am however somewhat defensive after being all but accused of Iai fraud via e-budo despite the fact that I've been very careful (and honest) to ensure I haven't made any claims about my experience in Iai. I apologise if this defensiveness appears/appeared aggressive.

Regards

Dave
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Old 03-05-2005, 07:30 PM   #18
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Re: "Muto"

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
I studied Muso Shinden Ryu through the BKA (British Kendo Association) albeit disjointed study due to the distance I had to travel to the dojo which later closed because the building housing the dojo burned down. I later continued my study through the aikido organisation to which I belong (having several BKA Yudansha within it) As I explained (when asked) on the e-budo site, My interest in Iai/batto is purely from a development of aikido. I do not at present have an Iai Sensei closer than 130 miles to me and thus I am simply continuing to train using the skills previous taught and applied to aikido. This is why there is no mention of grades or lineage on my website. I claim nothing. (despite being aggressively questioned via PM by one over zealous individual)
So what of the above are you including in your "over ten years Iai study"? Is that ten years of long distance study in the BKA, or 6 months in the BKA, 6 months with your aikido organization, then 9 years of self-study? You'd avoid a lot of this confusion if you simply didn't list "Batto-ho" as if it were a separate art alongside aikido and karate on your dojo's website.
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
How does it get to jodan if it hasn't be raised at some point ? (lol) and my point being that if the sword is already at jodan at the point when muto dori is required, it would be very unsound of a person to attempt to close maai.
And any swordsman or woman with a modicum of training knows this. Obviously, the sword cannot magically get from the saya to jodan without being raised at some point, but if the sword wielder does this before engaging, then from the other person's perspective, the sword is already raised, eliminating the small chance to enter while the sword is being raised.
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
I approached the article and the training accompanying it, from the perspective of giving the students "half" a chance of closing maai whilst the sword was brought from chudan to jodan.
Do you explain to your students that no half-way competent swordsperson would give them that chance? If you do, then great. If not, then I think you're running the risk of building a false expectation among your students, which your article seems to be an attempt to thwart.
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
and now we discuss semantics, my article was a generalism to which you wish to add specifics.
Um, no. I was just explaining why I hadn't considered the scenario.
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
So by this reasoning the method does not exist? Because you've not seen it.
Again, no. I never said such methods didn't exist. You pointed out an untrue assumption I held, and I was simply explaining my reasons for assuming thusly.

Kentokuseisei
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Old 03-05-2005, 09:09 PM   #19
David Humm
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Re: "Muto"

Kent, thanks again for your continued dialogue although your line of questioning is almost akin to your fellow e-budo member who virtually accused me of being a fraud simply because I choose to use the sword as an integral part of my Aikido study, I'm bordering on finding that slightly offensive.

Given that you mention e-budo in a recent last post I think I should continue and clarify that following a conversation with Mr. Owens on that forum, I actually altered the wording on my dojo website from "Iaido" to "Batto-ho", I did this because I accepted his point that in the 'scheme of things' it appeared as if I was teaching "iaido" as a separate discipline (which I do not). I will also point out that I am a member of an organisation here in the UK which had Kazuo Chiba Sensei as its technical director for over ten years, we (though not necessarily all) are therefore influenced by his weapons philosophy, myself included. Perhaps when you visited my website you may (or may not) have noted that the (now entitled "Batto-ho") page is (and always has been) presented very much as part of our 'Aikido study' in that; it explains why we study it... and I quote just one short paragraph to illustrate my point...

"Batto-ho may be studied for the same reasons as weapons work with bokken and jo: for what it reveals the roots of Aikido as a martial art." - Kazuo Chiba

Personally I feel you like others on e-budo don't like people (like me for instance) using the term Iaido or batto in the context of Aikido study and development, and I quote from an e-budo post to me... "Do you do real iai or something else?" Just like me asking if your aikido is the real aikido or something else because I study Aikikai and look down on other forms. Isn't it ?

Anyway, I may well be doing you an injustice and apologise if this is in fact the case however; this is the impression I have from posting just two polite questions on the e-budo sword forum and, your responses here.

I posed a question here to gain some knowledge on a particular subject which is of a great interest to me. I did this to enable the writing of a short but hopefully informative document which would (does) accompany a series of lessons for my students on the subject of tachi-dori/Muto application. As I clearly stated it was not intended to be a definitive article and, as you pointed out was a shade linear in its thinking concerning styles etc. (point duly noted, thank you.) Taking this into consideration anyone reading the 'draft' would understand that I am no expert (nor do I purport to be) and was merely attempting to widen both my own outlook and that of my students in a particular subject.

Given that we were all beginners at some point, I am somewhat amused at your comment about my desire to give my students "half" a chance in learning the maai required, in essence a starting point in the basics...

Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote:
"Do you explain to your students that no half-way competent swordsperson would give them that {"half a.."} chance?
...They already realise this, as they do with their aikido studies, no adversary is going to allow technique to be simply applied on them.
Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote:
...If you do, then great. If not, then I think you're running the risk of building a false expectation among your students"
As you identified, my article and the lessons with it, are an attempt to "thwart" that expectation, but, we all have to start somewhere, and basics is where that's at.
Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote:
So what of the above are you including in your "over ten years Iai study"? Is that ten years of long distance study in the BKA, or 6 months in the BKA, 6 months with your aikido organization, then 9 years of self-study? You'd avoid a lot of this confusion if you simply didn't list "Batto-ho" as if it were a separate art alongside aikido and karate on your dojo's website.
Does this entirely matter how that period is constituted? Obviously to you here and others over at e-budo it does. I have taken studies of iaido over a period of ten years and I will continue to do so whenever I get the opportunity, does this mean I'm not a student of iai because I don't train with an instructor every week? No, does this mean I can't integrate the knowledge I have gained directly into the study and practice of Aikido? Absolutely not. Additionally please tell me why in your opinion "confusion" occurs because I choose to have a page dedicated to batto/iai in the context of an Aikido dojo. Remembering, I claim no grades, state no experience in Iaido but do go to great lengths both on other pages of the site and on the batto-ho page to explain why we choose to use the sword (in addition to bokken) within our studies.

</sense of humour re-engaged>

Regards

Dave

Last edited by David Humm : 03-05-2005 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 04-22-2005, 12:21 AM   #20
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: "Muto"

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
I just took a few minutes to translate some of the relevant sections from the "Heiho Kadensho" on "Muto no Jutsu."
-- Jun
Very nicely done.

It might be simpler to look at it from the point of view of facing a gun. If you are in such a situation (far more likely than facing a sword), would you be thinking how to rapidly move forward and disarm him, or would you be thinking of what to say to talk him out of it? Which one is more sensible, I wonder?

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Old 04-22-2005, 02:25 PM   #21
David Humm
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Re: "Muto"

Indeed, what may be sensible however, the point of the article and the training wasn't to train people in negotiation skills. But your comments are valid never the less.

Dave
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