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Old 04-06-2005, 06:46 AM   #176
thomas_dixon
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Clyde Caminos wrote:
2 wrongs don't make a right. All parties were in the wrong. Plus you have to ask yourself of all the people to cut in front of why him?

Secondly IMO if you sell enough tickets sooner or later your gonna have to put on a show. And in that location you never know who's gonna be attending.

And to me most importantly - All this could have been avoided - yes avoided had the victim kept quiet, and been humble.

Now being I'm new to the forum correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Aikido based off of non violence? If you are a practitioner are not to follow the way? Just a question as I see the comments of run - do this or do that-.

Avoiding confrontations is the best part of not having to fight one. But unfortunately in todays day and age, that is not the case or is it?
Why him? Because he told his fiance over the phone someone just cut in line and it'd be longer. And the woman heard him.

What are you talking about in your second paragraph? Think about how many people you interact with everyday, and then think about how many of them beat the crap out of you...

Not all situations can be avoided. This one? Yes. Someone jumping you while you're going to your car? No.
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Old 04-06-2005, 08:33 AM   #177
SmilingNage
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Its folly to predict what you/anyone would have done had this happened to you.

Its better to see all the factors that played into and triggered this event and learn from that. Understanding what happened and the roles played is far more important than spouting out bravado about how you/anyone could have taken over this parcel of time.

Alot can be gathered from this just by watching what happened. How you use what has been learned is up to you.
Recognizing the dangers is the first step to self defense.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 04-06-2005, 09:48 AM   #178
rob_liberti
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
William Oakes wrote:
Its folly to predict what you/anyone would have done had this happened to you.

Its better to see all the factors that played into and triggered this event and learn from that. Understanding what happened and the roles played is far more important than spouting out bravado about how you/anyone could have taken over this parcel of time.

Alot can be gathered from this just by watching what happened. How you use what has been learned is up to you.
Recognizing the dangers is the first step to self defense.
I don't mean to be disagreeable here William, but I don't follow your post. If you agree that "it's better to see all the factors that played into and triggered this event and learn from that" then why do you think "it's folly to predict what you/anyone would have done had this happened to you"? Isn't the point of learning from an experience that you can predict how you might handle yourself better if something like it happens again? That doesn't seem like folly to me. In this case, I thought the point of the thread was what would we have done (based on what we have already learned in our own lives) if we were in that situation, and how do do we think our aikido training my help (or not)?

My thoughts are that it is great to have such a wake up call to the level of drama and violence that could happen in a seemingly random situation. I don't know about bravado, but I do take responsibility for who takes control of any moment in time around me. If I get surprised, I think, shame on me and I really try to reflect on it. When I see something bad forming and am able to avoid it, I think good for me. In this particular case, as I'm sure you would agree reading about others experiences (bravado or not) becomes part of my experience (that I read them and thought about them) and that serves a pretty good purpose if you ask me.

Rob
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Old 04-06-2005, 10:16 AM   #179
Justin Gaar
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Ki Symbol Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

What seems wierd to me, and CMIW but i've only watched to movie 2 or 3 times. What seems wierd to me is that as far as i can tell there is a guy down on the floor and everybody is acting normally. And that woman. Aikido, self-defense only or not, i would not have the heart to pull any kind of techinique on that woman. Alas, I wouldn't know, I have not followed this situation closely enough.

Justin

If you arrest a mime, do you have tell him he has the right to remain silent?
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Old 04-06-2005, 02:02 PM   #180
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Justin Gaar wrote:
What seems wierd to me, and CMIW but i've only watched to movie 2 or 3 times. What seems wierd to me is that as far as i can tell there is a guy down on the floor and everybody is acting normally. And that woman. Aikido, self-defense only or not, i would not have the heart to pull any kind of techinique on that woman. Alas, I wouldn't know, I have not followed this situation closely enough.

Justin
This is the thing about this video that shocks everyone. It's not really the brutal assault, but the fact that people just look and do nothing. That the manager ran away, and that the people coming in during, and after the beating just stepped over him. And then as if to add insult to injury, they wait like 5 or 10 minutes to pick him up off the ground.
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Old 04-06-2005, 05:09 PM   #181
Adam Alexander
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Thomas Dixon wrote:
...and after the beating just stepped over him. And then as if to add insult to injury, they wait like 5 or 10 minutes to pick him up off the ground.
I thought they were being nice and giving him a chance to keep a little dignity by getting up without assistance.
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Old 04-06-2005, 05:13 PM   #182
Adam Alexander
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Thomas Dixon wrote:
Why him? Because he told his fiance over the phone someone just cut in line and it'd be longer. And the woman heard him. .
No, because he did it like a smarta**. Saying,"told his fiance" minimizes what he did.

Don't you think the way someone talks to you affects your interpretation? If so, let's stop making it out like this guy was just some poor schmuck who was without responsibility.
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Old 04-06-2005, 05:40 PM   #183
DaveO
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Justin Gaar wrote:
What seems wierd to me is that as far as i can tell there is a guy down on the floor and everybody is acting normally.
Justin
Several people have spoken about this, but realistically...

There is a man who is being badly mauled. There is also his attacker; who is clearly showing not only willingness but eagerness to do violence. He is a lot bigger than you - he's practically bigger than everyone else in the shop put together!
He's accompanied by a scarecely smaller 'girlfriend' who is also clearly nuts.
YOU are 10 feet away from the unfolding situation.
The question is...there is of course what you'd LIKE to do or what you THINK you should do, but what WOULD you do?

It's easy to condemn self-preservation until you yourself are involved.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 04-06-2005, 06:15 PM   #184
Bodhi
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Most people, including martial artists, have no clue what to do when its for real, people freeze up all the time! It all boils down to whats worth fighting for AND how you have been training! If you have it clear in your mind exactly what you are and are not willing to commit to when its for real, then the decisions become easy! After you make that commitment then your mind is much more clear to act rather than freeze up! Bottom line is these people were shocked and froze up out of fear and not wanting to get involved so they let another man get beat down. Most likely they would have let the man be killed too, then said to others "well you would have done the same thing in that situation" Wonder if they would have done the same thing if it was a family member or close friend being beatin?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
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Old 04-12-2005, 05:03 PM   #185
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

"Scarpino suffered a broken eye socket and nose, a concussion and a chipped tooth in the beating. Did he die? Does he have brain damage? So the beating wasn't a life or death thing. I've seen people with worse injuries from skateboarding."

This has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever read. NO apologies, no exceptions. Followed by:

"Okay- I just got the video to work and the only thing I can say, if you had to bet your life on one technique- a really hard ridge hand to the temple as a pre-emptive strike. Once that first punch got landed, the fight was over, and from his size I'm betting that guy who got his ass kicked can take one better than I can"

AND

"My dad always seems to tell me stories about his Hapkido/Judo instructor... So, I remember him telling me about his instructor disarming two men with pistols (I think they were training with the Police Department) before they even knew what hit them. It is possible, but keep in mind he was a master of Judo and Hapkido and a few other Korean arts."

Without further comment...here is my two cents. I am a middle class (albeit lower middle class) white guy. If i am in the city and this ghetto looking, nasty, tore up monster (who is black...yes i said it, black) starts creating a ruckus, I leave. And before everyone gets all upset and tries to call me racist or this or that. Look at yourselves. If you did not notice the color and the attire of the attacker...SHAME ON YOU. This does not mean that you have to be paranoid. But the victim obviously had no idea what he was getting into. If this had been a skinny blonde girl from malibu and her skrawny boyfriend from the burbs the outcome probably would have been different.

I used to go to alot of hardcore shows in my youth. If i saw a big white buy with a shaved head and jackboots on, with a white power insignia....i move away. I have walked out on shows of bands i really liked because I saw my surroundings and based on environmental factors decided it is better to go home and watch tv than to stay and watch a fight.

Each case, each place is different. If you are going to make smart remarks you should at least have some forethought as to whom you are talking to/about.

I would like to think I would stand up and say something during the attack...but I don't know. I would be lying if I said i knew for sure what I would do. I have stood up for people in fights before but they usually end before anything serious happens. Sometimes saying "Hey, what the hell you doin'?" is all you need.

Last edited by Cyrijl : 04-12-2005 at 05:13 PM.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 08-02-2005, 03:37 PM   #186
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I remember that one!

I am making assumptions..so take this for what it is worth.

1. I assume that it was late at night...maybe 2 or so in the morning. Look like a crowd that had just come from the bars closing down.

2. Looks like a crowd that I would not hang around with.

Okay, It is easy to arm chair quarterback...but I believe I would have not found myself in that situation or would have walked away much earlier than that.

I once walked toward the door of a 7-11 late at night...only to immediately turn around and walk away cause I smelled something wasn't right. (cops came flying in a few minutes later).

I used to get into altercations all the time in my 20's. Usually I was trolling or in a place where I shouldn't have been.

I really think most fights are avoidable or mitigatable. That is the first step.

After that...make sure you have a plan. If you go to a rough neigborhood...have lots of friends with you (group).

If you are prone to putting yourself in a blind alley, late at night, with no way out..well Darwin does have a theory. (sorry!).

I did make a wrong turn down near Tuft's university once with my wife when I was young. We were scared shitless. I just acted like I knew what was going on, walked with a purpose, crossed the street avoiding alleys several times, and got out of there. Never stopped and looked at the street corner or arqued with my wife about being lost, or looked at a map or anything...just moved out in a general direction and kept going.

I don't think martial arts (empty hand) really as far as technique has much to offer in fight mitigation or avoidance...it is mainly timing, positioning, attitude, and ego.
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Old 08-03-2005, 11:12 PM   #187
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Larry Camejo,

Thank you, for the link to the Pizza Parlor attack! That was one big mother f%#&er!! I see the relevance to that video here. If the victim would have known Aikido, would it have helped him to defeat the guy, or would it have maid the big guy even more mad/insane? Are you really sure that big guy was really that slow? Sure, sure, I know the confident Jean De Rochefort with his theories would of came out victorious, but what about the rest of us?
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Old 08-05-2005, 12:41 AM   #188
dyffcult
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Back off thread...

Strangely enough, not one post on this thread (did not read the pizza thread--just watched the video) addressed the fact that it was the b&^tch girlfriend who started the fight.

She responded to his comment and got right in his face. She was aggressive, and probably relying upon her boyfriend to back her up.... I knew as soon as the guy leaned in to confront her that he was asking for trouble...

I don't know what the guy could have done to appease her....but if he could have, I doubt the boyfriend would have attacked.

When I first watched the video, I couldn't figure out why the woman freaked out so much. Why she attacked the way she did.

I'm female and it took me three times watching the start of the video to realize why that woman was so damn offended. The comment that he "might be here awhile" when she stepped into line was probably taken as a slam on her weight and ability to consume pizza -- thereby requiring a longer ordering time and a longer prep time....

Perhaps the proper approach in the situation would have been to immediately apologize to the woman until she accepted it. Then again, if it took me three viewings to understand why she was offended, it's unlikely someone on the spot would have figured it out enough to offer a sincere apology.

While I think that her boyfriend is an idiot buffoon who needs his ass kicked by a much smaller guy so that he will abandon his belief that might is right, that woman really needs some therapy sessions.

Back on track...my aikido training would have told me to leave the shop the moment the woman got belligerent with that guy standing behind her..... that sucker punch from nowhere would have left me out on the floor stone cold.

I don't think that guy had any clue things would get physical...after all, he was dealing with a verbally abusive female (most men assume women are harmless -- silly men:-) I do think that a well trained aikidoka, expecting that man to attack, would have been able to avoid the broken bones, etc...as well as held the guy until the police arrived.

Just my humble opinion.
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Old 08-05-2005, 02:16 PM   #189
Ketsan
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

My training would have told me to take the dude down as soon as he stepped onto the scene. I would have tried to calm the situation down with the woman but her boyfriend would have hit the deck the moment I spotted him and before he had an idea about what was going on.
I've seen pleanty of situations were even when the conflict is resolved the boyfriend still feels the need to hit something, I wouldn't take the risk.
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Old 08-05-2005, 03:00 PM   #190
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Roy Leclair wrote:
Sure, sure, I know the confident Jean De Rochefort with his theories would of came out victorious, but what about the rest of us?

If you trained kata you'd come out on top. I believe that because I've been in nearly a dozen situations where something happens (not necessarily confrontations--someone falls toward you type stuff) where I reacted with reflex because the energy was Aikido-like.

Those reactions were totally before I even realized what was happening. If you train kata, then you'd of recognized the energy going back before thinking about it (exactly that happened to me only like six months into my training--before I'd of even thought that I had reflex).
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Old 08-05-2005, 03:33 PM   #191
L. Camejo
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Brenda Allen wrote:
I do think that a well trained aikidoka, expecting that man to attack, would have been able to avoid the broken bones, etc...as well as held the guy until the police arrived.
Hi Brenda,

That was a very interesting post. I have a question regarding the bolded text above. As far as holding the guy in place until the police came, how would one do that using typical Aikido pins while probably having to also deal with an attack by the same said girlfriend who started the whole thing? I don't think she'd just sit there and let it happen, knowing that her boyfriend was also an ex-con. Unless the boyfriend could be rendered unconscious and therefore unable to resist being pinned or "held there", then one would be in the position of having to deal with two larger, simultaneous aggressors, while attempting to apprehend the boyfriend instead of the much less challenging act of surviving the conflict and being able to walk away safe.

Imho attempting to control the big boy with his almost as big girlfriend still being able to attack (and put some good weight and power behind even an unskilled hit) could be an unnecessary risk given the degree of aggressive intent involved in the whole encounter. Imho your job is to survive and escape serious violence, it's the Police's to apprehend, which occurred afterwards anyway.

Quote:
Ketsan wrote:
My training would have told me to take the dude down as soon as he stepped onto the scene. I would have tried to calm the situation down with the woman but her boyfriend would have hit the deck the moment I spotted him and before he had an idea about what was going on.
So iow you would have instead taken on Big Guy's role and then appeared on tape as someone who attacked a patron of the pizza parlor without any sort of provocation by your intended victim? I'm not sure how the laws operate in the U.K., but one needs to have a reasonable threat of serious, imminent danger to make a pre-emptive attack stick in court afterward, else the the person pre-emptively defending himself becomes the criminal and gets put away.

This is why I think that even though any MA training may address certain aspects of self defence, there are aspects of SD that are not often (if at all) addressed, which includes things like legal ramifications, psycho-chemical stress conditioning, understanding the force continuum, de-escalation and a host of other stuff that have nothing to do with physical technique or weapons, which is to be the last resort.

Some often say "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" but it depends on the individual and if he/she is able to survive prison life, else being carried by 6 will only be delayed. Imho SD is not about being the best fighter or a bada$$ but using one's training, knowledge and instincts to keep oneself safe from the dangers of life itself.

Just my thoughts. I reserve the right to be wrong.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 08-09-2005, 12:51 PM   #192
Jetcar
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

I think the best self defense would be to call in all pizza orders from a safe distance! (like, from home, or in the car outside the shop, and then just wait fifteen minutes and go in and get it.....)
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:25 PM   #193
rob_liberti
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
As far as holding the guy in place until the police came, how would one do that using typical Aikido pins while probably having to also deal with an attack by the same said girlfriend who started the whole thing?
FYI: I've seen Takeda sensei just pile up multiple attackers and pin them all together. He's a LOT better than I am so don't ask me how he does it!

I train with yokomen all of the time, and I think the way that punch was coming in, I would just end up smashing the guy in the face (which I believe some people call shomen ate). If the punch had more of an arc to it, and the guy responded by trying to block my hands smashing his face, then I could do a lot of yokomen techniques. Otherwise, I think it just comes down to he's hooking, you straight punch, when he's straight punching, you hook (or move of course!).

Rob
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Old 08-09-2005, 04:47 PM   #194
L. Camejo
 
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
FYI: I've seen Takeda sensei just pile up multiple attackers and pin them all together. He's a LOT better than I am so don't ask me how he does it!
Of course piling up and pinning multiple compliant Uke in the dojo or demo is a world of difference away from pinning and restraining a larger, uncompliant, seriously driven attacker for an extended period of time while also dealing with an almost equally sized and driven accomplice.

I like Carl's idea on calling for Pizza from outside though. Evade and escape.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 02-17-2006, 06:04 PM   #195
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Here's what an office mate asked me: what exactly would I do as a bystander. My answer was

a) use a cell phone (from the appropriate distance) to call 911
b) loudly start telling the attacker to leave that man alone
c) try to inlist two or three other men to toss that nut's butt out the door.

The problem with b and c is that you don't know for sure if the guy is armed! Even if 3 of you approach him, if he pulls out a gun and starts shooting, everyone in the place is now at risk.

What would YOU do as a bystander?

Ron
Option B may get you your ass handed to you as well. As far as option C goes, my money would be on the big guy to handle all 3 of you.
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Old 02-17-2006, 10:31 PM   #196
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Yes, the guy was huge.... he was probably very strong.... and he was clearly ready to fight, but this does not mean if you are smaller than he is that you will automatically lose!! Someone that was well trained and ready to fight as well could have just as easily destroyed him. A well place blow to the neck, groin, or knees can cripple big men as well!! Also, don't forget the lessons taught in The Princess Bride!!!! Andre the Giant was much larger, but a good choke can be your best friend! hahaha (I love that movie) If he, or someone more prepared, had been able to duck and weave a bit and gotten to the side or behind him, a solid choke could have put him out in seconds.
That's why we train, you never know when and you never know where, it just happens and you hope you're prepared and willing!

Nathan Snow
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Old 02-17-2006, 11:02 PM   #197
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

I happened to read back over some of these posts saw the discussion on guns... why train so hard in the martial arts if you're just going to carry around a glock??? Whip it out and if they don't go running for the hills, pull the trigger!
This guy did have some weapons with him that he didn't even realize. The cell phone he was talking on... that can be tossed at someones head to distract and draw a reaction that can be exploited. From the cloths he was wearing, he most likely had a belt on... I always wear one! I had a buddy that was confronted by 4 guys. While he kept them busy talking, he undid his belt. When they closed in, he snapped the belt buckle end at their faces, sending a couple of them ducking a scattered. The others thought better of it and didn't want to catch a belt buckle in the eye!

Nathan Snow
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Old 02-18-2006, 09:50 AM   #198
Edwin Neal
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

there has been some very good discussion of this scene, and i agree with many of the different takes and analyses of it... my thoughts are similar on some points...
1. Cell phone guy clearly helped to escalate the situation... too bad for him he did not engage his brain and a little humility... 'bumping chests' and slamming the table ramped the situation up, and put him in a worse situation... PRIDE/EGO will get you killed...
2. The 'best' responses IMO are to leave... when the woman turned on the manager, and before/as the boyfriend came through the door... i would have even held the door for him, and called 911 from outside... even after the boyfriend came in he and the woman were focussed on the manager and there was room and opportunity to escape...
3. Cell Phones!!! don't walk/drive/LIVE with one attached permanently to your ear... awareness as has been discussed is your most potent weapon... hang the damn thing up!
4. Ma ai and evasion... cell phone guy 'let' the woman strike him repeatedly... this only encouraged the boyfriend... move!!! a moving target is harder to hit and must be 'pursued'...
5. Your actions and words can have unintended consequences, even relatively 'innocent' remarks can be taken way out of context, and start a 'weird' chain of events... a good example of this is the 'James Smith Thread"... best not to say or do things that may potentially start a bad situation, especially if it may turn violent...
6. Once it starts YOU must take decisive action/reaction... all martial artist should have a basic understanding of reasonable self defense in a legal context ie. Self Defense is the right to protect oneself and others against violence or threatened violence with whatever force or means are reasonably necessary.
7. As Mr. Ledyard and others have stated a good 'offense' is the best defense in this situation... atemi waza... apply liberally... repeat as necessary... move to a better position ie Shikaku... clinching a bigger opponent from the rear quarter is a definate advantage... ever seen a dog chase its own tail? i would probably try to keep the woman between us if possible/feasible... and if necessary atemi her too... women ARE just as deadly as men... don't underestimate anyone...

i could probably say alot more about it but much has been covered by others... aikido is a 'martial' art, don't be hesitant/fearful of applying it martially...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-21-2006, 10:00 AM   #199
Mato-san
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

The situation was getting hot, it was already warm, our uke was busy making communications on his cell, he turned his back on the situation whilst it was heating up (probably calling for back up) not much room to create distance,not many options ,but I think his cell phone should have dropped in priority as soon as the situation displayed any heat, then his head would have been focused on better ways of achieving his goal. Classic street brawl.I tryed to keep my english as simple as could be. But that my friends is MHO. He got belted. Our attacker served justice. You could think of what could have been but I say move on.

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Old 02-21-2006, 12:45 PM   #200
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Suppose a bystander pulled out a gun, and shoot the big guy on the leg, what would happen to the bystander? Suppose the pizza manager charged the big guy with a tomato knife, what whould happen to the manager?
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