Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-09-2005, 10:03 PM   #126
James Finley
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 10
United_States
Offline
Guns in self-defense...

There are most definitely "no win" situations. Firearms are not the "end all, be all" of self-defense, but there are situations in which a firearm may be the only tool that will keep you alive. I think anyone who thinks they are just going to execute a palm strike to the guy and kick his knee out or whatever and its over is kidding himself. Its just not that easy in the real world. (Re-read George Ledyard's post several pages back). That guy ALONE would be a very serious threat to anyone (regardless of his/her skill) due to the size disparity. Throw in the female with him and it is now multiple opponents as well. Add in the possibility that they were under the influence of drugs and/or armed themselves and it was just plain bad news.

I can't speak about other states, but gun ownership and right-to-carry is a given here in South Carolina (and much of the South) and most people here don't automatically "fear" or "hate" guns the way some folks seem to. I am not convinced that if a defender used a firearm when attacked by two people, one of whom was the size of that guy, that it would even go to trial here. There is a an accepted right of self-defense and I have seen numerous cases where people have used guns in less clear-cut situations and were never even charged. This whole issue really has a lot to do with the state laws in the state concerned and the attitudes of the citizens of that state toward guns. It obviously varies dramatically nationwide.

In my experience, no martial art really prepares you for the kind of situation that guy found himself in. All any MA can do is improve your percentages. Nothing gives you a 100% (not even a firearm) even in a one-on-one situation. That's why real self-defense is about awareness, avoidance, and escape. I think everyone would agree that the situation was a bad one to find yourself in no matter what. I think there are definitely lessons to be learned, but I am not willing to go too far with it. I think if the guy would have complained to the manager, the girl would have freaked out just the same.

There's a lot to be said for pizza delivery! James.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 10:30 PM   #127
sanskara
 
sanskara's Avatar
Location: Austin, TX
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: Guns in self-defense...

Hey, we're basically in agreement here, although you didn't explicity state it as such on your end. Incidentally, I actually worked in an establishment that sold pizza and alcohol for almost four years, and often had to throw out drunks, gangbangers, etc. So this clip really hits home, as that's the kind of stuff we dealt with.

I have fond memories of the weapons people would bring illegally into the establishment and that I'd either have to dodge or take, as the situation required. Most of these people should not have been in regular circulation with the general population.

Neverthelss, since the establishment in question was in California and not one of the 38 right to carry states, I was not able to legally carry a gun as a deterrent to would be aggressors, so martial arts and common sense had to win out. Doing things the hard way, with regards to a perp's safety and my methodology of control because of oppressive local and state laws, I'm not foreign to. But now, I'd rather have it easier, and neutralize a problem while it's still several feet away, so I act and carry accordingly, as needed. Nothing is 100% fool proof, but as you stated, it's often a matter of odds.

Interesting, how if this were a gun forum and someone brought up Aikido as good self-defense, people would be all ears, but bring up guns on a socially correct ideological Aikido site (as evidenced by many of its participants, not the administrator,) and the shit hits the fan. As a sideline, I've always wondered why so many pacifist pansies frequent the art of Aikido. It's a fine martial art; it deserves a better following.

Last edited by sanskara : 03-09-2005 at 10:38 PM.

Regards,
James Bostwick
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 10:57 PM   #128
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Great points James B. and James F. I was wondering when someone with some practical firearm knowledge would chime in on those options as regards the video in question.

As far as social correctness and ideologies, one of the reasons I started this thread was to bring a little bit of the real world to the dojo darlings who may not be aware of what some real life violence may be like.

The legal information given was most interesting, and informative.

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 03-09-2005 at 11:03 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2005, 01:11 PM   #129
MitchMZ
Dojo: Prairie-Aikikai
Location: Clive, IA
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 75
United_States
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
James Bostwick wrote:
Won't happen. But while we're doing theoretics, what happens when you wise up and realize that you have no chance of applying your precious pressure points and marginal grapplying skills against someone of that size, strength, and aggression? I'll tell you what: suddenly, I'm making a lot of sense.

Yes, your post is, and the following demonstrates quite clearly that you have no experience in real-life combat. Good for you. I hope you never acquire it.
Why would I grapple with someone much larger than me? Thats suicide.

Thinking that your gun can never be taken away is not being open-minded. Although, it is not very likely at all. IMO, it is this, "it can never happen to me" that gets people in bad situations to begin with.

I used to use this pistol technique that seemed to make it impossible for people to take it away from me. That is until I showed it to a 6th dan in jeet kune do and he planted me on my butt. Although, if I was standing 20 feet away there was no way he could have done that. Combat is all about controlling the distance between you and the attacker, IMO. For instance, if I have a shotgun I need to get in close. And if I have a gun aimed on a would be attacker, maintaining a good amount distance is crucial.

BTW, don't make assumptions that I've never been in real situations or that I'm a bad shot. Anywho, I don't think anyone on these forums would wan't to be on the receiving end of anyone with a gun, period. I was merely being hypothetical. Can anyone answer me how many pounds of pressure it takes to break someone's knee?

Last edited by MitchMZ : 03-10-2005 at 01:17 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2005, 04:37 PM   #130
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
James Bostwick wrote:
...the innate right to make a citizen's arrest, and I'm in a better position legally than many cops.

More importantly, if you are uncomfortable using deadly force in defense of yourself or someone else's life you a) have no chance against someone 300lbs. and over 6 feet tall, and b) no business being a martial arts instructor.

Now that last bit may sound harsh, but this isn't tittly winks, people. If martial arts are to be anything more than hobby designed to make you feel tough in front of your friends, you must be willing to severely injure or kill. Period.

....You might want to think about that the next time you're agonizing in your dojo over the most "effective" way to apply iriminage.
Golly.

I hope you don't presume as much with a gun in hand as you do with a keyboard.

Slowly now

...take a deep breath, no one wants to hurt you

...that's right, easy...

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2005, 05:31 PM   #131
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Mitch Kuntz wrote:
Why would I grapple with someone much larger than me? Thats suicide.
A little off topic but...

Did you get to see the 6'1" 175 lbs. Royce Gracie against the 6'8" 450 lbs. Akebono?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2005, 06:38 PM   #132
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,134
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

I just had to chime in here when discussions of firearms, legitimate self-defense and the other related subjects started rearing their head.

There is a world out there with some very seriously violent folks, thankfully a very few, but enough to convince me over the years that there is such a thing as evil. I've run into many who would go out of their way to hurt someone and never think twice about it. You can generally see them from a mile away and recognize what malignant beings they are. From my own experience, it usually isn't the individual running his mouth and puffing out his chest, but rather the quiet one who slips in and does his damage.

Firearms work most of the time IF you have it with you, IF you are competent in it's use, and IF you are willing to take a life and face the consequences. The consequences aren't always facing a civil or criminal trial, but often result in personal emotional trauma. The average cop in the US who uses deadly force will leave the business within two years even in those cases that were legally and morally justified.

Speaking only of California, a person has the right to use the amount of force necessary to protect himself or others from harm. The standard of proof is what the "reasonable person" would conclude given all the circumstances. In a case like this, with the significant size disparity, perhaps using deadly force would be appropriate here. Storekeepers, shop owners and similar have a right to be armed in their place of business under California law, but not necessarily by the policy of the employer. Many employers prohibit their employees from carrying weapons.

Would I have shot the guy? Who knows - I certainly don't, but I might have under the circumstances. Would I have fought him? Probably. I would have lost too, in all liklihood, but neither one of us would have enjoyed the experience much - kinda like goosing a grizzly in a phone booth.

If you sense that you're in danger, you probably are and should get away if you can. The veneer of civilization is awfully thin with some folks.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 01:22 AM   #133
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,639
Offline
Re: Guns in self-defense...

Quote:
James Bostwick wrote:
As a sideline, I've always wondered why so many pacifist pansies frequent the art of Aikido. It's a fine martial art; it deserves a better following.
Now come on James, this is a bit intolerant. There are plenty of very good arguments for gun control and for pacifism. I believe that there should be more sensible control of firearms in this country but I own and carry, when necessary, a Glock and I wouldn't hesitate to use it if the situation warranted. I am pretty much a pacifist in that I feel that most of the conflicts that have occurred in the last hundred plus years (including the currentone), with the exception of WW 2, were pretty much unnecessary wastes of human lives which did nothing to change society for the better in the long run. But I have no problem fighting when it is necessary and am quite capable of doing so myself if needed. I don't think the fact that I basically hold a certain set of views on the subject of firerams, fighting, and war makes me a pacifist pansy.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 02:26 AM   #134
sanskara
 
sanskara's Avatar
Location: Austin, TX
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: Guns in self-defense...

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Now come on James, this is a bit intolerant.
Intolerant to whom? I didn't mention your name or even infer it. I don't automatically envoke the word pacifist and think of you, George. As you stated, you own and carry a gun, not to mention run a school on defense tactics--not exactly passive, if you ask me.

It's my opinion that your anti-war stance is largely political and irrelevant to the current issue. For the record, I think you're wrong, but who cares? This conversation is about self-defense under specific circumstances, not the policies of the Bush administration--God bless him.

Quote:
There are plenty of very good arguments for gun control and for pacifism.
Two separate statements on two separate subjects, both of which I disagree. People die, George, that's reality. I could care less if they die from cancer when their eighty or at the end of a gun in their teens because of bad behavior. Death is part of life. And to wax philosophical, the Universe doesn't care how you die either. More importantly, it's not my job to protect people who act out violently against others, and I won't.

Quote:
I believe that there should be more sensible control of firearms in this country but I own and carry, when necessary, a Glock and I wouldn't hesitate to use it if the situation warranted.
Kind of a freedom for me, but not for thee perspective. You know, Senator Diane Feinstein of California used to be quite the pusher for gun control, then it came out that not only did she own assault weapons, but also had a CCW. Don't tell me you're in that camp. If so, give up your gun and permit now. We can all do without hypocisy, liberal or otherwise.

By the way, does it bother you that anyone with a clean record and $65 can basically score a Washington permit, while other states require training? Is that the increased gun control you'd like to see? Did you argue with your county when you got your permit that they should do more than just take your check and fingerprint you? Because for me, a Washington permit was a gingerly trip down to the Clark County Courthouse and a three month wait for the paperwork to go through. I've had DMV appointments that were more harrowing and intrusive.

Quote:
I am pretty much a pacifist in that I feel that most of the conflicts that have occurred in the last hundred plus years (including the currentone), with the exception of WW 2, were pretty much unnecessary wastes of human lives which did nothing to change society for the better in the long run. But I have no problem fighting when it is necessary and am quite capable of doing so myself if needed. I don't think the fact that I basically hold a certain set of views on the subject of firerams, fighting, and war makes me a pacifist pansy.
Again, I was referring to the general tone of the board. Any criticism I have for you has just been outlined above and directed to you personally. If you consider yourself a pacifist, so be it. I personally think that you subscribe to that ideology, but your business and actions are in direct violation of said same. Consequently, you are not a pacifist, but someone who believes in the turn the other cheek philosophy unless it becomes inconvenient. This is because it feels good to hold such a perspective, even though it really isn't practical, in my opinion.

I, on the other hand, will rush to the plate in theory, but like any intelligent feeling person, will take my swing with careful consideration. Which makes me far more compassionate in reality, than in perspective. Personally, if I'm going to suffer cognitive dissonance over a disparity in action and philosophy, I'd rather do less damage than I said I would than more.

Last edited by sanskara : 03-11-2005 at 02:33 AM.

Regards,
James Bostwick
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 06:46 AM   #135
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 543
Canada
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Why, oh why does 'guns rule' have to come out?

Last I checked; the victim in this case wasn't armed; and tha attacker showed no weapon. I sayed 'showed no'; now 'was not armed' - there's a major difference.
People have been discussing 'could've', 'should've', 'would've' fairly steadily on this thread; the probabilities and improbabilities are still in place - and remain largely unchanged - if the victim had been armed or not. He was unprepared for the assault; simply 'having a gun' wouldn't have made a difference in the matter; except possibly to the negative.
Now; lots of people believe very firmly in the benefits of carrying a sidearm. I don't agree (depending on circumstance/location), but I respect their position. However; saying this situation could have been successfully resolved by a weapon is pretty narrow thinking. A sidearm is a ranged weapon - from extreme close range they can be a major handicap to deal with unless the person carrying has a very high level of skill, training and experience in live encounter. The victim here had none of the above - a weapon would have been extremely detrimental to his position.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 07:14 AM   #136
sanskara
 
sanskara's Avatar
Location: Austin, TX
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Dave Organ wrote:
Why, oh why does 'guns rule' have to come out?
An anti-gun Canadian? Why the wonders never cease.

Quote:
the probabilities and improbabilities are still in place - and remain largely unchanged - if the victim had been armed or not.
You didn't read carefully enough. It wasn't about the victim being armed. It was about what I personally would have done in that situation as an onlooker.

Quote:
He was unprepared for the assault; simply 'having a gun' wouldn't have made a difference in the matter; except possibly to the negative.
Now who's speculating? You sound like the kid with the magic spinning back kick.

Quote:
Now; lots of people believe very firmly in the benefits of carrying a sidearm. I don't agree (depending on circumstance/location), but I respect their position.
I'll bet.

Quote:
However; saying this situation could have been successfully resolved by a weapon is pretty narrow thinking.
I said that I would have helped the victim with my weapon; I never put myself in the place of the victim. You obviously didn't understand the last two pages of the thread.

Quote:
A sidearm is a ranged weapon - from extreme close range they can be a major handicap to deal with unless the person carrying has a very high level of skill, training and experience in live encounter.
I'm going to go ahead and make a wild guess that guns scare you and that your experience with them is extremely limited. Tell you what, sport, since I trained in the Ki Society myself for many years, I'll throw you a bone: you come down to Portland and try and take a squirt gun from me from five feet away (which is within the ten foot range that most gun fights take place,) without getting hit by water in a vital area (I'll only pull the trigger five times, since my smallest gun is a five shot Smith & Wesson 340PD .357 magnum.) If you can achieve that, I'll come on this board, start a thread about the incident, and eat some crow. If you can't, you buy me a box of jacketed hollow point bullets, which I'm sure would be just as much a disgrace for you. Deal?

Quote:
The victim here had none of the above - a weapon would have been extremely detrimental to his position.
Reading comprehension, Dave. Learn it, live it, demonstrate it in your posts. The victim was clearly unschooled in the finer points of combat. NOBODY is suggesting that handing him a weapon he didn't know how to use would have turned the tide. Now, you're either intellectually opaque or deliberately serving up a heaping helping of straw man. Either way, you're wrong.

Think I'm being rude? Tolerance is the luxury of those with no convictions.

Last edited by sanskara : 03-11-2005 at 07:25 AM.

Regards,
James Bostwick
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 08:15 AM   #137
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Intersting points of view...While James B. and I are most likely at opposite ends of the political spectrum, I have to say that so far his points make a lot of sense. The problem is, while I'd probably hand James a gun in a hot second and say "protect me", I'm not sure I want every tom, dick and harry (dirty or otherwise) packing heat at the pizzaria.

Anyone hear of the shooting at a court house recently where an armed bystander took on the shooter? He died...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 08:40 AM   #138
sanskara
 
sanskara's Avatar
Location: Austin, TX
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Hey Ron,

I appreciate the nod of affirmation. The armed bystander died because the gunman had body armor. A single cop in the same situation would have met a similar fate. But if there had been no body armor, I think we would have had a success story, as the gunman was unaware of the bystander until after he was fired upon. For all we know, the distraction that he presented actually saved some lives, even though it cost him his own.

Incidentally, I made up my mind a long time ago watching the infamous footage of the bank robbers in Hollywood taking on the LAPD several years ago with automatic weapons and armor, that I would always defend with the classic three shot pattern of two to the torso, one to the head--which I train regularly at the range I'm a member of.

This corrects for body armor, although I would probably take a good look at the clothing of an individual, if given a chance, as some types of armor can easily be seen as bulk under clothing. And unfortunately, the third shot is always a possible miss and hit of an innocent bystander, due to the recoil of the firearm, instinctive manual correction, and the fact that after one is hit by bullets, their head may move erratically. Therefore, if you can just hit the torso and neutralize the problem, all the better.

Regards,
James Bostwick
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 08:42 AM   #139
Mel Barker
Dojo: University of Louisville Aikido Club
Location: Louisville, KY
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 123
United_States
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
James Bostwick wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and make a wild guess that guns scare you and that your experience with them is extremely limited.
Oops, didn't see the land mine!

Unfortunately, James your reasoned arguments just succumbed to your bravado, (and I was so pulling for you.)

I'll leave it to Dave to correct your erroneous assumptions.

Mel
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 08:47 AM   #140
sanskara
 
sanskara's Avatar
Location: Austin, TX
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

By the by, there's a breaking story on the news right now about a criminal who allegedly swiped a deputy's gun and shot and killed a judge and two others in an Atlanta courtroom.

While the argument can be made that even cops with training cannot always prevent their guns from being taken from them, the beauty of being a plain clothes citizen with a concealed handgun license is that no one knows you have a gun. If no one knows you have one unless you pull it on them under conditions that are advantageous to you controlling them, then you're in a better position than most uniformed law enforcement, as you won't be specifically targeted for disarmament.

Additionally, as memory serves, your average officer gets less than ten hours of firearms training, and maybe sixty hours total self-defense. George may know better, as it's been a while since I've worked with the police on defense tactics, and that only peripherally.

Regards,
James Bostwick
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 08:52 AM   #141
sanskara
 
sanskara's Avatar
Location: Austin, TX
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Mel Barker wrote:
Oops, didn't see the land mine!

Unfortunately, James your reasoned arguments just succumbed to your bravado, (and I was so pulling for you.)

I'll leave it to Dave to correct your erroneous assumptions.

Mel

Yeah, you sound like you're on my side. If Dave does have firearms experience, then his views are truly sad. I guess it just goes to show you that not everyone assimilates and encodes what's presented to them accurately. But what the hay, let's let good 'ol Dave chime in, eh "buddy"?

Regards,
James Bostwick
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 09:52 AM   #142
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Hey James, I was reading your posts but I never got to see the video until last night so I couldn't really comment about what happened.

If you had pulled a gun on the guy, what's the odds of the bullet ricocheting off of something (his bones maybe) and hitting someone else? What's the odds of you being bumped, once people see a gun and they panic, and missing the guy? What if someone came in right after the big guy got shot, and they pulled a gun thinking you are robbing the place? Would you shoot them to? Would they shoot you? What's the odds that this guy had another friend in line right behind you?

I love guns, and have been around them my whole life, but there's a time and place for a shootout. I think a crowded pizzeria isn't the place.

Also, if they sell beer there, it's illegal to carry the firearm inside. Anyway, since you yourself weren't in any danger, you would be locked up right now for using excessive force and wouldn't be able to respond to my post.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 10:04 AM   #143
sanskara
 
sanskara's Avatar
Location: Austin, TX
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote:
If you had pulled a gun on the guy, what's the odds of the bullet ricocheting off of something (his bones maybe) and hitting someone else?
Limited, given the ballistics of how a hollow point (in my case, a cousin of the infamous black talon load) mushrooms to stay within the object of entry.

Quote:
What's the odds of you being bumped, once people see a gun and they panic, and missing the guy? What if someone came in right after the big guy got shot, and they pulled a gun thinking you are robbing the place? Would you shoot them to? Would they shoot you? What's the odds that this guy had another friend in line right behind you?
Hey, what if five hundred Ninjas all descended from UFO's and tried to skin me with balisongs? Let's try to keep this an adult conversation.

Quote:
I love guns, and have been around them my whole life, but there's a time and place for a shootout. I think a crowded pizzeria isn't the place.
So stand there and watch a guy get pounded then. Your choice.

Quote:
Also, if they sell beer there, it's illegal to carry the firearm inside.
It varies by state. In Oregon, there is no such restriction. Many other states also allow concealed carry in places that sell alcohol.

Quote:
Anyway, since you yourself weren't in any danger, you would be locked up right now for using excessive force and wouldn't be able to respond to my post.
This has been covered already. Please read the thread again. Oh, and have a nice day.

Regards,
James Bostwick
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 11:05 AM   #144
Talon
 
Talon's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Zenshin Dojo
Location: Edmonton
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 187
Canada
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Ok I have to chime in. I just couldn't take it any more. I have plenty of fire arms experience, fired a number of hand guns and assault rifles in my time and own a couple of guns. So I can't say that I'm green when it comes to fire arms and they certainly don't scare me (unless they are pointed at me). I can't say that guns are a bad thing and am not a anti-gun Canadian.

I'm really impressed at how certain people on here see things simply as "right and wrong", "black and white" dismiss any possibility of their failure and make statements about ninja's jumping out of ufos, then on the same token say that we should keep this an adult conversation. It's quite amazing to me that this self-righteous individual hasn't received more criticism. This is exactly how simple-minded extreme right winged people see the world - Very simple (right and wrong, black and white). Unfortunately there are a number of grays that also exist in this world and things don't always go as one might plan in the real world.

Calling another member a typical an anti gun Canadian because he shares a different view or perspective. Hey get off your high horse and relax man. This type of attitude is exactly why the world has a certain opinion about the US administration and Americans in general - Arrogant, self-righteous cowboys who always think they are right (when really they are not). To set the record straight I don't feel that all Americans have this arrogant attitude and by the results of the election and frequent visits to this board prove that.

Now, I believe my fellow Canadian Dave was asking you how carrying a gun would have helped the victim in this case and not necessarily follow your scenario of you being the bystander. I didn't find it too difficult to comprehend, why did you? Tunnel vision maybe? I wonder how that could be? So I have a couple simple questions for you.

1. How carrying a gun would have helped the victim in this case?
2. Why do you train in Akido or other martial arts if guns are the be all end all solution to these self-defense situations so much better and you're allowed to carry?
3. Why is it so difficult for you to consider that things are not always black and white, right and wrong and things can turn out different that you plan? (Ie. Some innocent bystander gets shot, or the big 300 lb guy takes a bullet yet manages to take the gun from you and blow your head off before he goes down.

Now lets look at what happened here in the end. The victim was relatively OK not injured for life or dead, will likely get some money out of this and the perpetrators are alive, caught and getting their sentence as ruled by law. Isn't this the way of a civilized society? In the scenario of our local John Wayne, two people would likely be dead (girlfriend and assailant) and he would be answering to the legal system himself but of course he would claim that he did the RIGHT THING! This is of course unless something went terribly wrong and more people were hurt
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 11:43 AM   #145
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 543
Canada
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Paul; please calm down. I personally have not yet answered because I haven't framed an adequate response. There is no need to respond to the 'Canadian' comment due to its patently silly basis; and it is especially not required to answer with insults and a national slur of your own.

You make some valid points; ones which echo what I'm working on here but please don't go blasting off; it's unwarranted.

To James: My experience in the field is what it is; I see neither the need nor the ability to 'prove' it here in Aikiweb. I have written from time to time regarding my opinions of self defense and weaponry here on this forum; rather than restate old ideas I suggest you search under my name for them.

I do not approve of weapons in the hands of civilians; however that is my opinion and mine alone - professionals can (and usually do) agree to disagree on many aspects of this field. There are no single correct answers. There are many with whom I work closely who have widely different opinions than I; there is nothing - especially our regular training and discussion - to say who is right and who is wrong.

Finally; please refrain from making silly challenges on the Aikiweb. I personally do not accept them; nor will any professional I am aware of. However; if you wish to meet to compare technique on this or other subjects; please contact me offlist via my messages and I will do my best to arrange it.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 12:01 PM   #146
sanskara
 
sanskara's Avatar
Location: Austin, TX
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Dave Organ wrote:
Finally; please refrain from making silly challenges on the Aikiweb. I personally do not accept them; nor will any professional I am aware of. However; if you wish to meet to compare technique on this or other subjects; please contact me offlist via my messages and I will do my best to arrange it.
It's not a silly challenge, Dave. If you're going to suggest that a firearm is a "ranged" weapon, as if to say that it's not recommended to use it at "extreme close range" without defining the term for purposes of this debate, and expect that to overturn every argument made thus far, then we disagree, plain and simple.

A silly challenge would be the old come down to my neck of the woods and I'll kick your ass. What I suggested was a reasonable and safe way to test your theory. I also laced it with sarcasm, as if you couldn't tell (there it goes again.) So let's keep it in perspective, and leave the melodrama at the door, so to speak. There are no victims here. If you post, sometimes you have to back it up. I've mostly chosen facts, interlaced with my opinion. You? Well, we'll just let it go and move on.

Anyway, I've got a plane to catch. If this thread is at the top of the queue on Monday, I'll log back in and look it over. Otherwise, I've said my "peace."

Regards,
James Bostwick
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 12:01 PM   #147
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
James Bostwick wrote:
Hey, what if five hundred Ninjas all descended from UFO's and tried to skin me with balisongs? Let's try to keep this an adult conversation.
Well 500 ninjas in a ufo is rather doubtful, the things I mentioned aren't so far fetched. Let's turn the scifi channel off and get back to reality for a minute.
You are admitting you have no forethought to your actions? These are valid questions that you have only a fraction of a second to determine. I think your response is the only thing that's not adult here.


Scarpino suffered a broken eye socket and nose, a concussion and a chipped tooth in the beating. Did he die? Does he have brain damage? So the beating wasn't a life or death thing. I've seen people with worse injuries from skateboarding.

You seem like a know it all, so It's useless to go on about this, but remember that it's a jury that will convict you, not your interpretation of your states laws.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 12:15 PM   #148
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
The victim was relatively OK not injured for life or dead, will likely get some money out of this and the perpetrators are alive, caught and getting their sentence as ruled by law. Isn't this the way of a civilized society?
I can't say for 'civilized', but I do know that I want any society that I live in to allow me the right of self-defense. Personally, I don't like guns, so it is doubfull that I would ever carry one, but I would certainly feel it appropriate to use deadly force in the situation described. The victim was lucky...he could just as well have been killed or permanantly injured. And I personally will not leave it up to the good graces of my attacker to determine how much damage they will do to my prostrate body.

Ron (but hey, Canadians and others are welcome to disagree)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 12:26 PM   #149
Talon
 
Talon's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Zenshin Dojo
Location: Edmonton
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 187
Canada
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Dave Organ wrote:
There is no need to respond to the 'Canadian' comment due to its patently silly basis; and it is especially not required to answer with insults and a national slur of your own.
Dave. I really did not want to come across as a national surer
And after reading my post, I must say that I wish I spell checked better but can't say that my post was uncalled for or improper.

To all that were offended by my previous post, please accept my sincere apologies it was not my intention to offend anyone.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 12:31 PM   #150
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,134
Offline
Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

There is an interesting article in this month's "FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin" dealing with suicide by cop cases, written in part by Ed Davis. In one of the cases reviewed, the suspect was shot five times at close range with a .45 caliber handgun and only surrendered a few minutes later after realizing he was hurt. The rounds should have stopped him instantly, but didn't. He took rounds to the chest and two the groin as well as rounds to the arm and leg. Firearms usually work, but they don't always. Nothing does.

Pepper spray is a good alternative in some cases like the pizza parlor caper. It doesn't work in every case either, but usually does. What it doesn't do is kill or injure innocent bystanders with missed rounds, deflected bullets, or through and through bullets. Maybe a better choice in a crowded environment.

Another case to consider is the Miami FBI shoot out a few years ago. Two agents lost their lives and five were seriously wounded after delivering a number of fatal wounds to the two suspects. I've seen people who did almost impossible things after suffering a fatal gunshot wound. I've also seen them dropped instantly. One size does not fit all, so to speak.

Staying out of bad situations is the best course of action. That failing, having more than one tool in the toolbox is a big advantage. John Wayne was an actor, Rambo was a character, and the Marquis of Queensbury is dead.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido of Northern VA Seminars - Doran-sensei in Northern Virginia, March 2015



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brawling with a friend Luc X Saroufim General 227 07-17-2006 08:33 PM
Iriminage Question shiroisaru Techniques 12 12-27-2005 02:57 PM
My answer to a very good question: Charlie General 1 08-02-2005 08:10 AM
Article: Thoughts on Bugei Studies by Karl Friday AikiWeb System Training 28 04-27-2002 06:21 PM
Question about clothing Shouri (Steve) General 3 07-26-2000 10:44 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:19 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate