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Old 03-05-2005, 05:44 PM   #76
Adam Alexander
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
1. What if it was your woman that cut in line, what if it was some guy that remarked over your woman cutting in line, would you feel that that guy then deserved to be beat down by you (and actually doing it)?
Absolutely not. I wouldn't react like that. There's just no need for it. However, because I live by a certain code doesn't mean I expect others (the attacker and the average person) to live by it. I know how people are and accept it.

You also said that because I wouldn't react that way, I should be able to understand why you and some others are so bothered by what happened. I do understand why you feel that way. However, not because I don't think the guy should of gotten beat up.


Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
2. The same thing can be done with the woman in a short skirt with high heels. If upon seeing a woman dressed in that way, would you feel that she deserved to be rape by you (then raping her)?
Deserve has nothing to do with it. I wouldn't do it. However, again, I live by a different standard. But, if she was raped, I'd say you shouldn't tap dance in front of a rattle snakes.


Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
If you are answering "no" to these scenarios, then I really think, as I suggested before, that you do not mean "deserve," but rather you meant to make some sort of commentary on what is "streetwise" and what is not.
I think "they were asking for it" does a better job of expressing my view than being "streetwise."

In a "streetwise" situation, you accept that the world can be a dangerous place. In the situations you describe, I think these people choose to believe that there's no need to worry about their effect on others.
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Old 03-06-2005, 07:26 AM   #77
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Part of this really boils down to being responsible for what you say. You may have the "right" to free speech, but if no one is around to "protect" that right, keep you mouth shut. I dont think anyone would have thought that this would have occurred by saying "i guess its going to take longer to get a pizza now" but this is the ignition point of this event. Being a smart A. and uttering passive aggressive statements is what caused this guys problems.

Above all things, keeping his mouth shut would have prevented this. No mouthy off, no get beaty up.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 03-06-2005, 08:09 AM   #78
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

I am amazed that some posters blame the victim. Verbally pointing out that someone is acting improperly is the correct action, that also takes a certain amount of courage. All of the witness should have spoken out and if they had nothing would have happened. The only error that the victim made was that he was not prepared to defend himself the moment the attacker entered the room.

Shame on those that blame the victim.

Walter Kopitov
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Old 03-06-2005, 08:15 AM   #79
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Ok......................here goes.

Your woman???????????? Does that mean you own her ?????

I can't even respond to the high heels and short skirt thing. It is too medieval. Men are not rattlesnakes. They are human beings. They can reason. Rape is violence not sex.



Mary
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Old 03-06-2005, 08:23 AM   #80
ronin_10562
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Be careful Mary, you are pointing out improper behavior. Some posters believe that you are asking for it.

Walter Kopitov
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Old 03-06-2005, 10:12 AM   #81
senshincenter
 
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

If anything, I would say the "your" operates in the other way - at least how I was using it. This kind of "your" is the same "your" as in "your man," "your significant other," "your boyfriend," "your girlfriend," "your friend," "your partner," etc. It does not mark ownership but rather that you are "owing" to someone else because they are a part of you.

But anyways, thanks for pushing that to the front Mary.

d

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Old 03-06-2005, 10:24 AM   #82
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Personally I don't think that the victim instigated the attack at all. He did what alot of us would have done if someone cut in line like that. He should not be blamed for this for saying that now he will have to wait even londer. Now what could have been done to not get your face pounded in this situation. Well in my oppinion as someone else has mentioned, something had to be done as soon as the attacker(s) entered the safe distance (maai). As soon as the woman entered that close waving her hand around and slapping she could have been neutralized with a simple ikkyo or nikkio tequnique.

As far as the big guy. Well as soon as he entgered that close there should have been an instant ateme, two or three with movement, then when he was distracted and the tori was off line of atack a proper tequnique could have been done. If you let an attacker that big get that close to you without doing anything to distract him and get offline of his possible attack, youre bound to get pounded like the victim did.

I'm not saying that the ateme should knock a monster like that out, but it should easily distract him for a moment such that you can get off line and in position to do something more usefull than just standing there and geing your face pounded in.

Moral of the story....Treat the attacker with respect, assume he will attack you and do the pre-emptive thing if he/she brakes the maai. Oh yea one more thing. GET OFF THE CELL PHONE! This guy has KING KONG in his face ready to flatten his face and he's not showing enough respect to get off the phone and pay attention to the threat in front of him? Again I'm not blaiming the victim but hopefully a trained person would not make such basic mistakes and saved his ass.
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Old 03-06-2005, 11:57 AM   #83
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
If anything, I would say the "your" operates in the other way - at least how I was using it. This kind of "your" is the same "your" as in "your man," "your significant other," "your boyfriend," "your girlfriend," "your friend," "your partner," etc. It does not mark ownership but rather that you are "owing" to someone else because they are a part of you.

But anyways, thanks for pushing that to the front Mary.

d
Anytime.

I thought about that after I wrote it.

Mary
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Old 03-06-2005, 03:53 PM   #84
Adam Alexander
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

You folks can talk all day about a world where people shouldn't get smacked around for running their mouths. But at the end of the day, that guy was nursing a whole lot of hurt and next time I bet he thinks twice about running his mouth--and that's what really counts--people living in their bubbles got a little glimpse of what might happen when they run their mouths.

As far as the guy getting sentenced, when he gets out in a year on parole, he'll be that much meaner and less fearful of prison because he's already faced it.

Look out folks, the world's a nasty place and people get what they ask for--even if they don't realize they're asking.
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Old 03-06-2005, 04:24 PM   #85
Ron Tisdale
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

What's really scary is that if that guy recovers and is in a situation where his actions could help someone else, he will most likely remember this beatdown, and do nothing.

I don't think I want to live in a world where we blame the victim...even if the victim is somewhat stupid.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 03-06-2005, 04:58 PM   #86
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

What does "blame" mean?
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Old 03-06-2005, 06:02 PM   #87
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Some people are talking about "neutralising" the big guy prior to him attacking. How does this stand in SD terms if you threw the first punch. You could argue I suppose that from the video it was never 100% certain the big guy would actually kick off until he did. If you applied a technique to the women on the basis of her slapping you and then went straight for the big guy, couldn`t you find yourself liable?

Lee
p.s. sure better than being beaten senseless yourself but where does the law stand on this?
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Old 03-06-2005, 06:21 PM   #88
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

I wasn't suggesting braking limbs, maiming or braking jaws. I was suggesting an ateme to distract and a neutralizing technique in order to be able to get out of there without getting pounded on. I don't think you'll have troubles withthe law if you don't really hurt someone and can prove that you were defendingb yourself while outnumbered and outweighed.
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Old 03-06-2005, 06:28 PM   #89
mj
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

The trouble is that there was no-one brave enough.

A crowd that is docile can just as easily become the crowd that burns books, or crucifies or becomes a mob or becomes 12 disciples. The silent crowd looking away is no different from everyone telling you 'you deserve it'.

The crowd was controlled by the big scary guy (and before that his loud /looking for trouble/aggressive girlfriend who I hope is getting jail-time too) and there was no-one brave enough to take that away from him, her or them. The guy who got beaten up was also beaten up by knowing no-one would help.

Even worse than the guy who got beat up...I would be more ashamed to be someone there who did not.... a shocking display.

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Old 03-06-2005, 06:33 PM   #90
wxyzabc
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Thanks Paul

I know, but others have talked about things like head butts and groin attacks which are potentially more damaging...would that be ok if you "think" you`re about to be attacked? do the rules of SD change for different countries...is the UK different from the States for example.

People study Aikido and other martial arts for other reasons than purely SD, but it would be nice to think that if it was necessary to use MA in such a situation, that you wouldn`t find yourself facing a prison sentence if you did break bones etc when maybe there was no video footage to examine.

Lee
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Old 03-06-2005, 07:32 PM   #91
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Lee Price wrote:
Some people are talking about "neutralising" the big guy prior to him attacking. How does this stand in SD terms if you threw the first punch. You could argue I suppose that from the video it was never 100% certain the big guy would actually kick off until he did. If you applied a technique to the women on the basis of her slapping you and then went straight for the big guy, couldn`t you find yourself liable?

Lee
p.s. sure better than being beaten senseless yourself but where does the law stand on this?
You do not have to wait to be hit in order to use force to defend yourself. it is the "perceived threat" that determines whether you can or not.However one additional factor comes into play and that is the issue of "preclusion". Was there any "reasonable" action you could have done in order to preclude the encounter? In other words, could you have run away? Did you try to use verbal means to dissuade the attacker or did you particpate in the conflict verbally and therefore have some responsibility for getting it started.In this case there was no effective line of retreat. The guy was cut off from the outside exit by the attackers. Any "reasonable" person watching that film could see the threat, therefore he would have come out ok in court as long as he acted only to remove the threat and not to punish. But the guy initially didn't back down or offer an apology or in any way try to defuse the situation so a witness might be less sympathetic just as many of the folks here are less than supportive. If he is deemed to have been a factor in the start of the fight he negates the fact that the level of force used was approriate to the threat. Then he's in trouble again.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 03-06-2005 at 07:42 PM.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 03-06-2005, 07:32 PM   #92
dan guthrie
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

One thing this video shares with the video at the rock concert (Danzig?). The first punch was right-handed and the whole body was behind it.
I don't know if this means anything except that we've got two street examples where the aggressor didn't use a weak side jab and didn't pull his fist back after the punch. If the victim had dodged - the punch would have left the aggressor off balance, just like in class.
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Old 03-06-2005, 08:59 PM   #93
Talon
 
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Yes both videos definitelly showed that, however the punches were relatively fast for someone who was not expecting one. It may not look all that fast to all of us watching the video over and over but I'm sure it appeared lightning fast to the guy who did'nt know it was coming. I mean yes they look slow to us at this time but when youre stunned by the situation to begin with, it may not be all that slow to you at that time.

In any event, the best thing is not to get into a situation like that to begin with but personally, I'm not sure I would remain quiet if I was waiting in line and someone butted in. So I guess to all on here that blamed the victim, I would have been asking for it too.

It's nice to see that real street attacks are more in line with what we train than many tend to believe. However during our training with yokomen uchi and haymaker attacks we found that the two are quite different. Both of the attacks in those videos were haymakers and I believe we should all practice haymaker defence not just yokomen uchi strike defence.
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Old 03-06-2005, 09:11 PM   #94
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
...people living in their bubbles got a little glimpse of what might happen when they run their mouths.
Jean, I think your posts are the most enlightening when you stick to using words like "might" - where you talk about what is possible and not what is absolute and a mere matter of cause and effect. Unfortunately, many of your posts here make use of the latter voice and not the former.

When folks use the word "bubble" to describe another point of view, they are often trying to note how such a view is only true within a specific and/or limited environment - and thereby for the most part false. That said, I think it is totally inaccurate to denote the environment where folks comment upon infractions over commonly accepted conventions and NOT get beat down as the "bubble." In truth, this is the popular position and/or the environment most folks all over the world live in. Statistically, it's not even close if you compare how many folks live in an environments where they can speak up over cultural assumptions regarding cues (without getting beat down) to the number of folks that live in environments where doing so leads and/or possibly leads to a beating. If one of these environments is the bubble, if we want to associate the "bubble" with what is experienced by only an insignificant number and/or by a statistical anomaly, then it's got to be linked with what you are saying Jean.

New, but related, topic: I think a good book to read on this - in hopes of seeing where the real bubble lies - is "The Culture of Fear." I personally think it is a must read for any martial artist - whatever your slant - but especially if you are an American.

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-07-2005, 12:01 AM   #95
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

You know, I must be pretty good at getting out of trouble.
I hope I wouldn't have been yacking on the phone and trying to ignore the woman, but when I saw the situation I would have gotten out of I am almost certain to say.

I would have given the guy a blinding Bruce Lee roundhouse kick to the head with a loud 'Heeeeyaaa-a-a-a-a-a' ....

....and then the ObiWan Kenobi would have stepped out behind the counter, sliced off the woman's arm with a light saber as Starsky and Hutch raced in to handcuff them to the radiator till Spiderman and the Hulk arrive.

No. Being from New York, I know one thing; that is: display sombre reconcilitory body language, and plan to walk away if at all possible.

'Nevermind, I apologize; Goodnight' is one that often works with palms held up to display that you are unarmed. You start walking and they might be happy enough to have your place in line. I'm outta here. Worse that might have happened is the woman would have screamed after you, "that's right you take your lame white ass home cause you aint gettin no pizza either!" Old saying of mine "Never rear your ugly head till trouble rears it's".

The poster who suggests a diversion such as going nuts, breaking furniture, starting an argument with the guy next to you is right on. The agressors are not that quick mentally and you could take them by surprise. They might even have a good laugh at the crazy white guy. But in general I would have quickly made amends. The key is when the woman is bumping him. He has an opportunity to get smacked a few times by her, then it would end, the boyfriend might have slapped him once for good measure on his way out.

Or a good approach would have been to run around behind the boyfriend and say to him... "save me save me.. she's gonna kill me, man!"

As for bystanders, luck of the draw but there are certain people who could have spoken up... "Aw, Leave him, he's had enough" but unfortunately no-one with that sort of impartial social authority was waiting for a pizza that night.
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Old 03-07-2005, 12:24 AM   #96
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

I don't understand a lot of the logic on this thread. Most blame the cell phone guy for shooting his mouth off, but the woman did cut in line and then started making it out to be an injustice when someone called her on it. Some people are just too sub-human. If I hadn't said the same thing as the phone guy, I would have at least been tempted. We talk about him disrespecting her, but she openly disrespected everyone in the line by cutting. Cutting, yeah fine. She's an ***hole who cuts. But then she starts getting in everyone's face and yelling? What the hell is that? Man, at least someone in this world has the stones to openly tell someone to shut up when they're being a jerk. Its this kind of passivity that is letting the ***holes win.
What's this about him not backing up his own toughness after that giant walked in? Yeah the phone guy calmed down a little, but he had no idea Mr. 300 was there. So now he's outnumbered and one of his opponents is enormous. He made some bad decisions here in terms of self defense, but I wouldn't say at all that he wasn't tough enough to back up his words because of that. There is a limit on how far the phone guy should take things. Shutting up right then and thinking about where this was going was a good idea at that point. Even if he did have the know-how to take this guy out, where would it have ended? Him running away after knocking his opponent down? No. He's got to back himself up, right? What, beat him? Kill him? Where is tough enough? At what point has he sufficiently backed up his comment about her cutting in line? Its just pizza, people. Things escalated to the point of disaster, but there was no reason it should have gotten violent, other than to shut that lady up somehow (sorry I hate people like that).
A good palm strike would take pretty much anyone out. I wouldn't recommend hitting him in the stomach, but a face is a face. Broken noses still make the eyes water (and then there's always the eyes themselves...come on, we don't always have to be nice). If the first one didn't knock him down, give him another one. Then just push him over or take his knees. Its hard to hold up 300lbs of bulk on one shaky leg. This is just me coaching though. I wasn't there and I weigh less than 1/2 of what he did. But, life or death, me or him, I'd have probably tried something along those lines. Redirecting power would have been a little tough in there with that guy.

Ah, I could rant forever on this one, but then its just another rant about the stupid people in the world. Waste of time.
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Old 03-07-2005, 12:36 AM   #97
wxyzabc
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

"The poster who suggests a diversion such as going nuts, breaking furniture, starting an argument with the guy next to you is right on. The agressors are not that quick mentally and you could take them by surprise. "

spot on I reckon....I`ve walked away from a similar situation by doing the crazy act...threatening to pound someone seriously bigger than you is the last thing they expect ...first sign of weakness and its all over if you dont have the training to defend yourself...

Lee
p.s. many thanks George for the informative reply

Last edited by wxyzabc : 03-07-2005 at 12:38 AM.
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Old 03-07-2005, 12:57 AM   #98
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

mmm.... actually ran away is probably more accurate
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Old 03-07-2005, 01:01 AM   #99
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

So, what have I learned from all the above? Well, I tend to be fairly passive. So, next time someone pushes in front of me in the same situation, I'll disregard most of the above negative vibes and say,

"I guess its going to take longer to get a pizza now."

I actually think that is quite a good response. Far better than the boring, "Excuse me - do you realise there is a queue? (when you know, of course, that they do indeed know there is a queue).

The chances of a big guy coming at me like that are slim, but now, in light of the above, perhaps I will be ready. We are all molded by experience are we not: One man's misfortune can become another's experience.

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Old 03-07-2005, 03:05 AM   #100
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

One other point is that there is no justification for striking the boyfriend, who is a victim of the confusion his girlfriend has wantonly set up. Add to that the notion that you shouldn't touch the woman, and the only thing important here is to diffuse the situation and avoid personal injury. Talk or Walk. Make friends or make tracks. There's no fight here.

By the way, the woman is screaming to the manager, 'Do you hear what he's saying..' so I believe he was saying something to his fiancee on the phone like, "No, no, there's this fat loudmouth here trying to get in the line and......"

Good argument that cellphones cause brain damage.
Another person would have said. "Ok If it means so much to you, go ahead..." Same net effect; it makes the statement concerning manners.

Last edited by Nikopol : 03-07-2005 at 03:08 AM.
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