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Old 03-03-2005, 04:36 PM   #51
Adam Alexander
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

One other thing. About "ducking" the punch, change it to "drop your center."
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Old 03-03-2005, 05:54 PM   #52
senshincenter
 
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Well I am not sure which is a sadder view of Man -- that He can be so apathetic (which as I said is an interpretation I tend to agree with here -- with other folks in the thread) or that He is both subject and slave to impulses and/or instincts that are akin to the mechanisms behind a rattlesnake's bite. The latter one is just too jaded for me to hold -- whether or not my own life experiences (and the expectations I place upon myself) can add support to such a position (and they can't).

It is an old philosophical position, one shared by almost every spiritual system, that Man and animal, though related, are not wholly equitable. This is particularly true in regards to Man's capacity to reason (to use his heart/mind -- the very aspect we seek to cultivate via Aikido) and thus to distance him/herself from any initial impulses that we might refer to as "animalistic." So central is Man's capacity to utilize his heart/mind in this fashion that without this philosophical premise there is in fact no Aikido -- no need for anything Osensei did or said. This is basic Meng Tzu -- this understanding of the heart/mind of Man and thus of the Nature of Man. Meng Tzu, who was studied by Osensei in his formal education, is at the heart of the Founder's understanding of what all we can and should achieve through Aikido training.

It may be true that there are men and women out there who act and think at the level of animals -- if we want to say such a thing -- but these folks are not closer to Nature. There existence and their actions are not justified through inevitability. In fact, they go against human nature -- they go against their own Nature when they fail to utilize their heart/mind in relation to their impulses. For this reason, unlike animals, unlike a rattlesnake that bites at a tap dancer, these folks are quite unwell (e.g. loaded with depression, plagued by self-destructive tendencies, burdened with anger, fear, and ignorance). When a rattlesnake bites at the heels of a tap dancer, it is one with itself. When a man or a woman acts like a rattlesnake that bites at a tap dancer, he or she is lost to him/herself.

To say someone "deserves" such a response from someone else is to say indirectly that Man is doomed to being lost. At the most, for those of us who have grown up where poverty breeds violence and violence breeds more poverty, and both things breed an alienation from the conventions of culture, we may want to say, "It was most unwise to respond to the woman's aggressions, or to start what you cannot finish," but this is a long way from the notion that he got what he deserved.

When a man or a woman acts like a rattlesnake, it is most unnatural. Thus, there is not truth in it, no matter how many times it happens. When a man or a woman acts without reference to their own heart/mind there is only disease. This may sound like philosophical mumbo-jumbo to some of you, but where I grew up, where animal-men and animal-women did abound, we as a community, just as those individuals knew about themselves too, we all knew that they were sick - we all knew they were abominations against their own humanity. Neither the regularity of violence, nor the jadedness we may have come to feel when fear overpowered us, really allowed any of us to understand such departures from human nature as the rule - they were always understood as the anomaly.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 03-03-2005, 06:04 PM   #53
mj
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

No wonder the big guy felt like punching someone if that is his girlfriend.

He probably only did it to get the jail sentence.

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Old 03-03-2005, 06:12 PM   #54
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Hilarious - good one.

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-03-2005, 08:32 PM   #55
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Does anybody know if the pizza is any good? I mean...if it is to die for, well...I gotta get me some of that pie!


Charles Burmeister
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Old 03-04-2005, 02:47 AM   #56
maikerus
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Hey Larry,

How do these comments compare to the mailing list you pulled the original clip from? Do they go in the same circles...or do they have different ones?

Just curious,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 03-04-2005, 09:23 AM   #57
Dan Herak
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Dave Organ wrote:
There's no call for ab-hominem attacks here. Nor call to respond to them. Let's please keep this civil and argue the points.
This post is tough to swallow. It was the original poster who blatantly blamed the victim for getting beat up. Indeed, he actually did it in several different posts of which I picked one single example. I find it quite disturbing that nobody called him on it and I am not going to apologize for doing so. It is even more troubling that, after somebody blames the victim and does not get called out on it, I am then criticized for my post. Although I will not deny the harshness of my post, it was quite qarranted when one sees such attitudes expressed. Blaming-the-victim is an ugly game and the only way to stop it is not only to challenge the ideas but also the person making it. You say let's argue the points. Fine, show me your original post in which you addressed this issue. If you cannot, then you are criticizing me for addressing it more harshly than you want, when you indeed had an opportunity to express it, but failed to do so.
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Old 03-04-2005, 09:29 AM   #58
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
No wonder the big guy felt like punching someone if that is his girlfriend.

He probably only did it to get the jail sentence.
LOL yea probably LOLLLLL... but seriously, wonder wot wld alot of famous m.artists have done in tt kinda situation. Bruce Lee, Steven Seagal, or even O Sensei himself....
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Old 03-04-2005, 09:32 AM   #59
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
Hey Larry,

How do these comments compare to the mailing list you pulled the original clip from? Do they go in the same circles...or do they have different ones?

Just curious,
Hi Mike,

Funny you should ask that.

This topic is posted on Budoseek.net as well and also has some interesting opinions.

The general premise on the original mailing list was that the subject of the attack lacked awareness of his surroundings and the degree of danger he was in and basically should have taken the opportunity to get out of the place before it escalated to the physical assault. It appeared that the cell phone somehow had him psychologically insulated and distracted from what was going on around him (much like drivers who use cell phones and cause accidents by ignoring their surroundings).

They pretty much agreed that the attacker had come into the pizza parlor intent on beating down somebody from the outset and the cell phone guy got elected. Generally it was agreed that the use of lethal force was not recommended (mainly for legal reasons) since the attacker, though huge, was unarmed, however to survive that encounter one should be prepared to use that level of force (i.e. enter the mindset) but end the conflict as quickly as possible by initiating the attack. The key would be to use extreme, targeted violence in a precise manner that would shock the attacker and end the conflict quickly before he launched his first bomb. Basically let him know he was not the only "killer" in the room so to speak (of course this calls for the requisite mindset and cannot really be faked to someone who already has it). Something I alluded to with my Shomen Ate concept - take him out before he takes you out and LEAVE. Ideally though, folks should have tried to leave the situation during the slight pause between the woman walking to the door and her boyfriend coming in to set it off or even earlier if possible. Escape, escape, escape.

One comment on that list was that folks did the typical "social norm restoration" thing where they were mulling around trying to regain psychological balance and a sense of normalcy after they thought the manager had evicted the woman. So they were all caught flat footed when the big man came in ready to rumble and they were trying to return to peace and harmony mode.

It was apparent to these folks, who deal regularly with criminals and that sort, that the boyfriend was accustomed to using his size etc. as intimidation tactics and doing that sort of assuault, which is a very popular method used in prisons for the shock factor. The idea is to shock the entire group by making a quick, devastating "Blitzkrieg" atttack which serves to destroy the target quickly while effectively extinguishing any ideas from the audience to jump in and do anything. It basically does not last long enough for the bystanders to start thinking about the situation and get emotionally riled up enough to do something while at the same time giving them a sample of what they may be in for if they did do something.

The mailing list basically consists of a lot of current and ex-law enforcement and military and a lot of folks who have learnt the principles of real life self defence by being in real life self defence. There are also a few martial artists on there too. Makes for some interesting discussion when the Dojo Darlings meet the Survivors of the Real. Good thing is they are very good about sharing information and thoughts so that others don't have to repeat their mistakes and get their injuries to learn.

This was part of why I liked this video. In an instant it shows how things can go from zero to WTF? and helps us see what the real world looks like a bit, which I hope would act as some sort of aid to that fringe group who may attempt to train their martial art towards effective real life self defence as part of their training.
LC

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Old 03-04-2005, 11:07 AM   #60
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Wow... Interesting thread and clip. You know, this is kind of why I generally phone for pizza. Much safer to have it delivered at home.

My opinion goes to the "let's get the hell out of here and come back when the psychos are gone". If that involves going into the kitchen, so be it. Awareness is really to blame here. After that, it's dealing with a bad situation. Yuck, not nice at all.

I am somewhat glad that no one used a gun. The whole place would have turned into a blood bath.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
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Old 03-04-2005, 03:47 PM   #61
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

I think when we ask "How could this situation have been resolved/avoided" what we are all really asking is "Could I have dealt with this situation without getting my face pounded like that poor guy." We want to know, after spending all that time, effort and money at the dojo, would I have been any different than this schmuck. Personally, I can't say for sure I would have be. Fights are chaotic things, it's impossible to tell the outcome by interjecting myself in the place of the victim.

I think what we should be asking is "what can we learn from this episode about how to deal with real life violence?" I think that the most applicable lesson to be learned here is: be aware of your surroundings. By this I don't just mean don't talk on your cell phone while a 300lb monster is breathing down your neck. I mean, the next time you are waiting in a line or sitting in a restaurant, or spending any amount of time in a public or semi-public place, be aware of where you are, what is around you, how much room you have to maneuver, where the exits are, and how to get to them. One thing I noticed from the video is that the victim never had a chance to run because he was backed into a corner made by the wall and his fellow customers. Diffusing the situation involves an unstable human factor, but simply placing yourself in a spot where you can run, or at least have some room to work if you have to deal with someone physically is something that we can all do and it is not dependent on anyone else's actions or inactions.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:00 PM   #62
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Regarding 1) Whenever a situation develops, you've got the choice between escalation and de-escalation--nothing else. If you're a party to the escalation, it's your choice--he made that choice by saying something.
Now, I'm not saying she was right. But he was definitely wrong(this is personal opinion formed out of the belief that the property owner has the right to run the business how he likes without my interference). Again, it's the business owners business. If you don't like people cutting the line, go somewhere else. If every business allows people to cut the line and you don't like it, start your own pizza shop where you'll take care of people who cut the line.
Isn't that a very indirect approach to solving the porblem?
I have trouble believing that the right thing to do in cases as these is standing up for what you believe as your right (being served in the order as you arrived at the pizza parlor) by never buying a pizza there ever again.
And if you say that some women ask to be raped (see further as well), aren't line cutters asking to be set straight? Or do you think that although the line cutter is asking for it, it's not the best thing to give her what she is asking for?

Quote:
For those who disagree with me, it appears to me, that you have the belief that you have the right to direct the order of someone else's business.
My thought on that is that you subscribe to the same ideology as the line cutter. You have a belief about how things should be run and then you implement them.
You are right about this, great argument.
However, your argument rests on the assumption of consistency. And I for one do not claim to be consistent in words or actions, although most of the time I am. The problem is that consistency assumes a perspective from the outside in which two things, actions, etc. are stripped from their particulars untill they can be compared. That outside perspective is a world in which human life is impossible, we cannot leave our present conidition to ponder about things. My point is that such an outside perspective (needed for your consistency-argument) is irrelevant for actual human life.
So a line cutter cannot be compared to someone saying he/she shouldn't in the way you did. Someone cut the line and someone responded and yes, both are implementing their believes on what should and what shouldn't. But in different contexts: one was breaking a social convention ('first come, first serve') and the other was defending it. And that makes a big difference. (There are other differences, but this is in my opinion the most important one.)

Quote:
Dan H., I do believe that a woman acting in a certain way is asking for it--in the same way that if I were tap dancing in front of a rattle snake, I'm asking to get bit. It's nature. You can't change that.
We change nature all the time by a means called culture. On the other hand, human culture is a key aspect of being human, so human culture is a form of nature as well.
Nevertheless, I can read your point in two ways:
1) you're being realistic about human nature. Unfortunately, in the right context our higher brain functions have no influence on us whatsoever.
2) you're using the natural = good argument, which is quite flawed. Laying your eggs in a living creature so they can hatch and eat the animal from inside out is natural, but not a good example of what we call the moral good.
I'm guessing you subscribe to 1, but I'm not entirely sure.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:31 PM   #63
DaveO
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Hi Mike,

Funny you should ask that.

This topic is posted on Budoseek.net as well and also has some interesting opinions.

The general premise on the original mailing list was that the subject of the attack lacked awareness of his surroundings and the degree of danger he was in and basically should have taken the opportunity to get out of the place before it escalated to the physical assault. It appeared that the cell phone somehow had him psychologically insulated and distracted from what was going on around him (much like drivers who use cell phones and cause accidents by ignoring their surroundings).
....
Hi again, Larry.

Great response and summary - I was wondering if one of us should put it up on the mailing list we both share - it'd be interesting to see what those folks say about it as well.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 03-04-2005, 06:25 PM   #64
Adam Alexander
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
... or that He is both subject and slave to impulses and/or instincts that are akin to the mechanisms behind a rattlesnake's bite...
All that stuff you said is real nice in a dojo or church or some other bubble. In reality, the average person (the great majority) does not practice Aikido. Further, they don't adhere strongly to moral codes when the reward of a decision is strong ego gratification.

I'm sure in a lot of little towns all over the world, people do the "right" thing. But I've never seen it--atleast not when the reward for not doing the right thing is significant.

So, as far as people being like rattlesnakes, it's an analogy which is consistent with my experience.

Further, the veiw that people are rattlesnakes is so wide spread, the US gov. is based on it: capitalism. People are motivated by self interest. What you're talking about seems to dismiss that.


Quote:
Dan Herak wrote:
... I find it quite disturbing that nobody called him on it and I am not going to apologize for doing so...
It's not about disagreeing, it's about attacking someone personally instead of rationally disagreeing. Ad Hominem is a term in logic. Whenever you attack someone, it's illogical; meaning that the character of the person is irrelevant to the statement that person made.


Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote:
Isn't that a very indirect approach to solving the porblem?.
So, correct me if I'm misinterpreting. You're saying,"It's an indirect solution to not financially support a business who's practices are inconsistent with your beliefs?"

If that's a correct interpretation, I say it doesn't matter whether it's direct or indirect. It's the right solution.

Regarding the rest or your post: I like lines. I like order. However, I do not feel that my opinion, whether it's consistent with this culture or not, should be imposed in this fashion (violating the rights of the business owner here. He has the right to run a business that doesn't have respect for lines.)

On the rape stuff, I think I outlined it above.
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Old 03-04-2005, 07:53 PM   #65
senshincenter
 
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
All that stuff you said is real nice in a dojo or church or some other bubble.
Well to each his own - we don't agree.

However, I think it is important to note that such views are never born in dojo, churches, or some other bubble - places of quarantine. These views come from the pits of human culture - where culture fails most. It's like that - always. Give me a world religion that speaks about the commonality of Man and that was NOT born in the ghetto and you'll win a prize! While these things seem to you to be foreign to reality, I must say that your own view smells to me of the "outsider looking in" or of "middle and/or upper middle class," etc. This is how our views look to each other - because I'm thinking we are coming from different backgrounds.

Believe me, that guy that got whacked and the guy that whacked him were from different backgrounds too. And while the guy that got whacked may have been thinking that he didn't deserve that and/or that he was violated in some way, the guy that whacked him never for a minute pondered over issues of "deserving" and/or of being the great deliverer of some sort of moral street code. After the fact, he was just thinking he "knocked him the 'bleep' out," and then after that he goes on to fight with his woman over what happened and why and what's going to happen next. Notions of who deserved what and why was never anything I came up against where I grew up (i.e. poverty avenue, Pomona, CA) - though I always saw it in Hollywood and/or in the cops that "visited" our neighborhood as part of their job.

In other words,if you are coming up in your experience with some notions of surety and purpose, such as "what is deserved," and that works to explain the true randomness of such violence to you, then we are never going to see eye to eye on this. Where I grew up, that kind of violence (like that) was always random, and that was what was most pressing about it. You either learned to live with it - with that randomness - or you went off the deep-end when any type of "street code" you had miserably failed at making sense of things (as it always will).

In short, while I have my philosophical objections to your position (which would include you seeing that by your own logic you should accept that attacks on you by other posters as something you "deserved" - but that would be silly), your view is too much "Jets vs. Sharks" for me to consider it as the "real" reason why that all went down the way it did (or should).

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-04-2005, 07:57 PM   #66
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Well I just watched the video and honestly think that the poor guy did nothing wrong...the body language of the women clearly showed she wanted to cause trouble. If he hadn`t have said something I reckon one of the others would have and the result would have been the same. The victim (the guy with the phone) didn`t even initially seem to be aware of the huge guy (or perhaps their relationship) so reacted to the women in a way most people would I expect....nb she hit him he never reacted.

There were too many people in a confined space for any serious attempt at aikido unless you`re a seriously advanced practioner..the best he could have done was tried to block....actually falling down (not that he had much choice) was pretty smart....
I reckon this shows that some knowledge of other arts eg. karate is very useful but even so against someone that size all you can do is try to block, perhaps throw a partly disabling kick to some sensitive area and leg it. However I doubt anything would have helped him much.
The guy has my sympathy and I personally lay pretty much all the blame on the women to be honest. Big guy shouldn`t have laid in to him but was put in a position where he either dragged his girlfriend out or "protected" her (even though it was her fault)...sadly he made the wrong decision.

Last edited by wxyzabc : 03-04-2005 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 03-04-2005, 08:20 PM   #67
senshincenter
 
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Jean,

Sometimes you walk away and its then that you realize more clearly what you were trying to say...

Here's the test:

1. What if it was your woman that cut in line, what if it was some guy that remarked over your woman cutting in line, would you feel that that guy then deserved to be beat down by you (and actually doing it)?

If you say, "no," then I think you can sort of understand where I and others are coming from. If you say there are considerations that should apply to you (that shouldn't apply to the guy in the video), then I again think you can sort of understand where I and others are coming from. If you say, "Yes, that guy would deserve to get beat down by me in that same exact fashion," then according to your view you would be inflicting some moral street code that we are all supposed to be aware of and share. In my view, you would be out of touch with your own humanity, your own nature, and thus with reality. That would be where we would differ.

2. The same thing can be done with the woman in a short skirt with high heels. If upon seeing a woman dressed in that way, would you feel that she deserved to be rape by you (then raping her)?

If you say, "no," then I think you can sort of understand where I and others are coming from. If you say there are considerations that should apply to you (that shouldn't apply to a rapist), then I again think you can sort of understand where I and others are coming from. If you say, "Yes, that woman would deserve to get raped by me," then according to your view you would be inflicting some sort moral street code that we are all supposed to be aware of and share. In my view, you would be out of touch with your own humanity, your own nature, and thus with reality. That would be where we would differ.

If you are answering "no" to these scenarios, then I really think, as I suggested before, that you do not mean "deserve," but rather you meant to make some sort of commentary on what is "streetwise" and what is not.

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-05-2005, 05:34 AM   #68
creinig
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Again, it's the business owners business. If you don't like people cutting the line, go somewhere else. If every business allows people to cut the line and you don't like it, start your own pizza shop where you'll take care of people who cut the line.
I can't see any problem with the shop owner's behaviour. There was no immediate reaction at the start -- at least no visible one. Maybe she said something, maybe she was busy with something else at the time. When the line-cutter got "out of line" (forgive me the pun), she was reprimanded. And then Bubba came in. At that point the store owner had the choice between either (a) getting back behind the counter or (b) seriously risk getting beaten to a pulp herself. I'd say she acted exactly right.

If you want to boycott shops because their owners don't like being hospitalized for you, fine. I think that's a bit excessive though

(Note: I don't think you suggest that, so please don't take it personally. I just thought it had to be said, and this seemed like the best place.)
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Old 03-05-2005, 07:25 AM   #69
DaveO
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
Did anyone notice? After it's over the big guy drags his 'victim' about - as though with some purpose in mind - then picks up the 'victim's phone and walks off with it.

Dave Organ wrote:
I suppose its possible - highly doubtful, but possible - that a highly experienced practicioner (Say 8th dan or so) could effectively redirect that shot.

Redirect that? Are you joking? Not even remotlely possible (although part of me would like it to be possible). The average 8th Dan Aikido is usually over 65-70 years old - unless you are referring to some of those 8th Dan+ young guns from the Bad Budo section of E-Budo (not possible for them either). More likely, the 8th Dan Aikido would not get into such a situation in the first place.

Agreed almost completely; especially about the last point, although I would say this is a good demonstration that violence can occur anywhere; regardless of location, intent or outlook. In a case like this; I wouldn't sell aikido completely short; I surmise that one of sufficient skill could possibly do something - I was being rather general in my thought when I said '8th Dan' - I suspect a Yamada or Kashewaya Sensei could deal with the situation; but not many of lesser skill using aikido alone.

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Old 03-05-2005, 08:41 AM   #70
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

This is a total street fight situation. If you think that your Aikido is going to allow you to -re-direct an attack like that with so little room to move... well, it;s not going to happen.

This is a classic go straight toi the center situation. In our defensive tactics training we teach a "ready position" in which you tuck your strong hand under the opposite arm and extend the weaker side hand; keep the palm of the hand towtrds yourself, this is a non-aggressive gesture that looks like suplication. What you have done at this point is get both hands up where they can function to protect you without giving away that you have done so.

The moment the other guy moves you go straight to the center. Given his size you are going for the total incapacitation (also given that he is backed up by the woman who is clearly vicious). We taech a split dive off that type of positioning. The forward hand intercepts the incoming blow while the back hand goes straight to the center, usually delivering a palm strike to the nose. Immediately after the blow is blocked both hands go to the attacker's face whereupon you thumb his eyes, this makes his head go back whereupon you deliver a head butt to the center of his face and cave it, this naturally puts the head back and the groin close so the follow-up is a groin strike designed to bring his head back down where you can finish him with knees to his head until he is unconcious. While all this is happening you are delivering the most frightening kiai of which you are capable.

All of my defensive tactics students are trained in this combo specifically for this type of predatory ambush situation. It is designed to finish the guy with in the first few seconds. Variations include making the first palm strike a hit to the throat or a jab to the eyes and following up the head but with an elbow combination before going to the knee work.

The key to successful application of this type of defense is not being knocked out or subtantially hurt by the first shot. This guy was not capable of mounting an effective defense from his position. Any one of the most common sucker attacks would have worked: the haymaker (the one actually used), the upper cut, the head butt, etc. Some defensive posture the moment the altercation started would be the minimum reuirement for some sort of possible defense. Without that, he was toast before the first blow was struck.

That said, the possibility of further escalation would be very possible if not probable. The caliber of person who acts like the two in the clip doesn't typically walk around defenseless. That's why nothing short of totally nuking the big guy would be acceptable here. he needs to go down right away. Then I think there would be a very good chance of an edged weapon being produced by the female in defense of her male. Bolting for the door would be a proper follow up to putting the big guy on the floor. I can't imagine dealing with a large, armed, female in that closed space.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
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Old 03-05-2005, 08:57 AM   #71
L. Camejo
 
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
Dave Organ wrote:
Hi again, Larry.

Great response and summary - I was wondering if one of us should put it up on the mailing list we both share - it'd be interesting to see what those folks say about it as well.
Hi DaveO,

Since it was that mailing list that inspired this thread, I think that there was nothing that they didn't say there that was not said here in some form. As far as my post goes, I merely summarised their views, so I'm not sure if playing back what they already know would make much sense. Unless I missed something regarding exactly what you wanted me to post on the other list.

Listmom is generally busy without superfluous posts imho.

As far as the 8th Dan (and comparative level) being the only ones able to redirect the punch goes, I am trying really hard to see if I am missing something that you guys are detecting as regards that first punch in the video. To be quite honest as far as speed, power and intent goes, that beginning punch is not very different to how I attack my higher Kyu graded students with a round/sucker punch (in fact the ones we use allow for much smaller arc than in the video so you have a very short interval in which to detect and respond before being hit), and I'm outweighed by the Big Guy in the video by about 50 or so pounds. The only difference may be that they know it's coming most times in my class, but this is not always the case and most tend to handle things pretty well even when caught unexpected by entering deeply inside the arc of the punch (towards the shoulder of the other hand), and striking the side of the neck while turning and dropping one's weight sharply and holding onto the punching hand and head (without stopping the momentum) to overextend the attacker's balance, bringing the arc of the punch (and the rest of him) straight towards the floor as you come out of the turn. It's a great way of getting out of the corner as well imho by using the turn to help you get behind thae attacker and then out the door. Of course I do not expect the person in the video to do this, but I'm just showing that this basic move is something practiced well before 8th Dan in many dojos (aiki nage is it called by some??). But of course there are other more instinctive and reflexive/reactive aspects that come into play other than the mere technique that are equally important.

We also sometimes operate from the range that the punch occurred in the video as well (in fact it's the best range for that particular response since you have minimal distance to cover in order to get inside since you are already in the hole). But maybe I am missing something that you guys are seeing. There are a few Aikido folks I know from our system that I am sure can handle that punch with a redirection or pre-emptive strike/throw like Shomen Ate and they fall within the 2nd to 4th Dan category. But it is possible that I am missing something, but if not, like I said earlier, it depends on the reason and focus of one's training.

Great posts folks. I like George's response too.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 03-05-2005 at 09:00 AM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 03-05-2005, 12:16 PM   #72
senshincenter
 
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Some of us folks count all that stuff Mr. Ledyard said as "Aikido." It sounds like good weapons tactics to me, since nothing redirects a strike like dominating the centerline. I think Mr. Camejo is suggesting the same thing with the Shomen-ate.

On a related note, David Humm has a thread going on here on "muto," and Jun had translated some text on what that term meant for one tradition, etc. In that translation, the yin aspect of the sword's strike is stressed as the opening by which one is to determine the proper maai (and thus obtain the primary chance for tactical success). Mr. Humm, I believe, rightly relates this to the yin opening of Shomenuchi when training in Shomenuchi Ikkyo. From my perspective, what Mr. Ledyard has outline above fits in perfectly with this ancient tactic that is still to this day vital to the omote and yang aspects of Aiki.

If I may say, I liked Mr. Ledyard's idea of entering while covering - adopting a kind of "unsophisticated" sophistication in merging one's Angle of Attack with one's Angle of Deflection. Chiba Sensei, as well as my Kenpo instructor, Michael Robert Pick, was all very much of the same position. Art's like the "new" ones coming out of Israel also clearly adopt this tactic. Moreover, I have found it to be something present in nearly every art. You just have to look for it. The tactic has you bracing and covering in order to receive a blow and/to brace yourself for one reason or another. However, it all gets a hell of a lot more sophisticated because you vary the angles of your entry, the angles of your elbows, the timing of your tactics, etc., and though are you covering up for the worst, you are actually attacking or engaging at your best. For me, it is how you apply culture to nature -- how you add fire to raw meat and get a banquet.

Chiba Sensei at times used to demonstrate this to the degree that it almost looked like he was going to tackle his uke when doing Shomenuchi Ikkyo Omote while in Suwari Waza. This was done to make his point: You must be covered when entering. Though I do not have the same exaggeration, since I am only trying to utilize the principle and not emphasize it, you can see a simple example of this idea (engaging while covered) in the following video clip (though no strike is thrown simultaneously, as in Mr. Ledyard's tactic). The linked Aikido Perspective addresses the Yin and Yang of Shomenuchi and its relation to entering and turning in Ikkyo omote and Ikkyo ura while utilizing Aiki. It is extremely long -- but some might find it interesting. Here's the video link (you'll find the link for the article on that page as well).

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...kkyovideo.html

Something else to note, the attacker had bad knees. It was evident when he walked in the door that he either had bad knees or that the adrenaline had already "built up" in his knees such that they were no longer flexible. Either way, he was forced to waddle from side to side -- because he's knees would not bend to accommodate his gait and/or his weight. That is one of those things you want to be aware of -- right when he entered the door (as someone else brought up the point of being aware of one's environment). With such knees, I'm am not so sure that this person would have been too hard to take off balance and/or even to take down, as we are all suggesting when we just look at his height and/or his weight, if one is ready for him. In addition, once this person fell down or teetered from a push, a strike, and/or an entry, the fallibility of his capacity for combat, and thus the applicability of countless tactics, would have been exposed. When you are that big and have bad knees, you have to forget about trying to regain your balance and/or, worse, getting up from the floor in any kind of way that can remain martially viable. You will be way too slow to recover and it will be all downhill from there. You can see a clear example of the attacker's poor knees and how they are determining his balance when his woman pulls him into an Angle of Disturbance with single wrist grab -- almost mid-punch -- on his T-shirt no less.

Last edited by senshincenter : 03-05-2005 at 12:20 PM.

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-05-2005, 04:52 PM   #73
DaveO
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Wups - that's my fault Larry; I couldn't find it on the List - sorry 'bout that. Haven't been able to keep up with it all recently.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 03-05-2005, 05:17 PM   #74
Adam Alexander
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
...These views come from the pits of human culture - where culture fails most. It's like that - always. Give me a world religion that speaks about the commonality of Man and that was NOT born in the ghetto and you'll win a prize!
Buddhism. Siddhartha Guatama (spelling?) was a prince. Buddhism was born from an outsider looking into the ghetto.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
While these things seem to you to be foreign to reality, I must say that your own view smells to me of the "outsider looking in" or of "middle and/or upper middle class," etc. This is how our views look to each other - because I'm thinking we are coming from different backgrounds.
Only if you're from the middle/upper class. I was raised just outside of Detroit, MI and spent most of my teenage years in the city with a gang.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
...the guy that whacked him never for a minute pondered over issues of "deserving" and/or of being the great deliverer of some sort of moral street code...
Now you're catching what I'm saying...He didn't consider codes or morality or some other crap. Just like a rattlesnake--or an average person-- he did what was natural.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
...In other words,if you are coming up in your experience with some notions of surety and purpose, such as "what is deserved," and that works to explain the true randomness of such violence to you,
I don't think I'm saying anything about purpose. I say there's a correlation between running your mouth and then getting slapped for it in certain situations.

Sounds to me that you were the one talking about "higher" purpose.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Where I grew up, that kind of violence (like that) was always random, ...
I just don't believe that you can call an act of violence that's preceded by the "victim" running his mouth "random."

A criminal walking up and car-jacking a person for no apparent reason, that's random. Driving through the ghetto in a BMW and sitting at stop signs to smoke a cigarrette, that's asking for it.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
...you should accept that attacks on you by other posters as something you "deserved" - but that would be silly), your view is too much "Jets vs. Sharks" for me to consider it as the "real" reason why that all went down the way it did (or should).
For the sake of ending this conversation, I'd prefer saying "it was asked for."

As far as the "real" reason you speak of, I think you're saying,"the only reason." I'm not saying that the only reason that this happened is that the "victim" ran his mouth. Sure the attacker could of just lost his job. He could of been very hungry and highly irritable. He could of been raised in a bad home. You get the idea. I'm just saying, if the "victim" would of minded his own business, there's no apparent reason that this would of happened to him.
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Old 03-05-2005, 05:22 PM   #75
senshincenter
 
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Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

When the Buddha was a prince, he was no Buddha. When he saw the commonality of all things - or however you would like to word that - he was poorer than poor.

I think your last paragraph is something I can agree with - a place that we can share in common.

Thanks for your input.

David M. Valadez
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