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Old 03-07-2005, 09:43 AM   #151
sunny liberti
 
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
I hope your idea of equality allows me to have a different perspective than you do.
Of course it does. But your using such an authoritative tone speaks volumes about your attitude. You are stating with implied certainty that rape is a sexual thing and not rageful or dominating. Like, how do you know that saying it is an act of rage is nothing more than "trendy" and has no merit? You seem to leave no room for being wrong. Your lack of experience with spirituality doesn't mean it doesn't exsist, it means you've never experienced it. Your lack of understanding about rape simply means you have not experienced that either. (I'm assuming here that you are not a rapist...) Book are great. People make theories and we read them and see if their theories ring true for us or not. But seeing as we all have different experiences to draw from, we won't all see things your way.

My little one just woke up... So I have to leave this where it is...

Last edited by sunny liberti : 03-07-2005 at 09:56 AM.

Sunny

A brave man dies once; cowards are always dying." --Moanahonga, Ioway
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Old 03-07-2005, 09:58 AM   #152
Mike Sigman
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Quote by Mike Sigman:
Often there is wholesale rape (monkies do this too, BTW) by the troops... it is not from "rage and domination", it is because they are males with a strong sex drive and they can get away with it. A lot of civil rape cases are the same thing, Ruth. To try to pigeonhole rape as purely "rage and domination" is superficial and inaccurate. Horny men (and women) are opportunistic, as well.

Sunny Liberti replied:
Mike, how is it that you are the authority on this? Do you have experience in rape councilling? Do you treat or interview rapists? Maybe you've headed a research project on the subject? Just speculating from your interpretation of a book? I truly want to know your experience here. Maybe you do know more than those of us who have been on the receiving end, but you'll have to convince me of that.
Just to lay this old saw about rape being only about "rage" and "domination" to rest, here's a quote. If one gets away from the popular self-reinforcing feedback of pop-psychology, there are a lot of credible sources mentioning what should be common sense: there are a variety of causes for most things that happen. People truly interested in the topic, and not just wanting to emote about it, should do some research. Truth is what helps dispel onerous behaviour. Not telling the truth, with the excuse that it's "for a good cause", is one of the most hypocritical and detrimental approaches to progress:

http://www.umsl.edu/~rkeel/200/violence.html#Rape

The fact that rape is - always, by definition, and by its very nature -
violent, does not meant that it cannot be other things as well. The "rape
isn't about sex, it's about violence" cliché sets up a false dichotomy,
which assumes that rape is "about" either violence or sex - it cannot be
"about" both. This formulation adopts the Essentialist perspective and
assumes that there is one and only one way of looking at rape; that there is
an inner concrete or objective "essence" contained by rape - violence - that
manifests itself to all reasonable and unbiased observers under any and all
circumstances. BUT: We need to consider the subjectivity of the Rapist.

Violence and sex are fused. There is something erotic and sexually exciting
about inflicting violence upon women

Rape is instrumental. It allows men to gain sexual access to otherwise
unattainable women.

Rape is "recreation and adventure" "the element of danger" makes rape "all
the more exciting"

SO: Rapists, as with every other behavioral category, make up a mixed
motivational bag, and violence does not represent the primary motive of all
of them - even though they always engage in a violent act when they rape.
THUS: The act is always violent, though the motive need not be.
SO: We must examine how rape is seen, defined and judged by audiences.

A CONTINUUM OF JUDGEMENTS
exclusive - (SCULLY AND MAROLLA)-

inclusive - radical feminist - all intercourse between men and women,
however consensual it may appear, represents an assault, an act of
aggression, an invasion, a violation - RAPE.

moderately exclusive - held by sexual and sex and gender-role
traditionalists and conservatives - "Nice girls don't get raped." If women
don't engage in all these sexually provocative activities, they won't bring
on men's sexual attention in the first place. Most Americans hold this view
and will blame woman for a sexual attack against her. They restrict their
notion of what rape is to a relatively narrow set of acts.

moderately inclusive - held by sexual and sex and gender-role liberals.
Men have no right to force women to do anything sexual; if they do, its
rape. This position is held by a minority of the American public.

Three Crucial Audiences:
1. The General Public
2. The CJS, including the police
3. The victims of rape.

Conclusions

Societal values don't support violence, but do support male dominance.
Extreme-->rape.
We expect men to take the initiative, be aggressive.
Female autonomy is devalued. Double standard.
This context provides the "raw material," rape is 'just' an extreme version
of socially approved forms of interaction.
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Old 03-07-2005, 10:07 AM   #153
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It's interesting how strong the consensus is in so many westerners that "our values are the correct ones and we need to impose them on other cultures so that they will be 'up to snuff'". In other words, although in each phase of existence we have felt strongly that our "current values" were the best in the world and we should foist them on everyone to their benefit, maybe we should question our values as much as we question everyone else's.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
I am sure you are right. Living in Japan for 25 years now has forced me to question my 'western' cultural values on many occasions and I am much less ready to argue from a 'western' standpoint in my classes. On the other hand they are values and questioning them is a serious matter. Doing this is easier, though no less painful, if you live in another culture.

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P A Goldsbury
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Old 03-07-2005, 10:07 AM   #154
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Sunny Liberti wrote:
Of course it does. But your using such an authoritative tone speaks volumes about your attitude.
I speak "authoritatively" only when I'm on basic and easily proven ground. The "rage and domination" stuff is far out-of-date and is called a "cliche'' in the source I quoted.... there are MANY sources saying the same thing.
Quote:
You are stating with implied certainty that rape is a sexual thing and not rageful or dominating.
I did NOT state that. Sometimes rape is from things like rage and domination; my cavil was against the assertion that it is ALWAYS from rage and domination.
Quote:
Your lack of experience with spirituality doesn't mean it doesn't exsist, it means you've never experienced it.
I've also never seen a flying pig, so by your logic I can't say they don't exist?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-07-2005, 10:17 AM   #155
sunny liberti
 
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Re: Equitable?

Mike, your excerpt states that rape is necessisarily violent. Sorry, but duh. Earlier you made the assuption that since castration limits rape, that rape is inherently sexual. As if the defect is somewhere in the balls. Castration certainly limits the eunich's ability to manifest his violence by sexual means, but castration certainly doesn't heal him of his desire to inflict harm.

Quote:
my cavil was against the assertion that it is ALWAYS from rage and domination.
From your ecerpt:
Quote:
SO: Rapists, as with every other behavioral category, make up a mixed
motivational bag, and violence does not represent the primary motive of all
of them - even though they always engage in a violent act when they rape.
THUS: The act is always violent, though the motive need not be.
How does one rationalize inflicting violent on another if not that they decide it's OK to dominate them?

No one argues that rape is sexual by nature. The means by which a man inflicts violence a woman is less important to us than the fact the he *wants to inflict violence us*. But the desire to harm women for one's own gratification is pathological. Whatever the motivation. Just like we would likely all agree that the desire to cut off someone's hand for a souvenir is wack! Doesn't really matter why.

Quote:
Not telling the truth, with the excuse that it's "for a good cause", is one of the most hypocritical and detrimental approaches to progress:
Agreed. Why are you the keeper of all things true?

Last edited by sunny liberti : 03-07-2005 at 10:25 AM.

Sunny

A brave man dies once; cowards are always dying." --Moanahonga, Ioway
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Old 03-07-2005, 10:28 AM   #156
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Sunny Liberti wrote:
Why are you the keeper of all things true?
I think that's gratuitous, Sunny. Let's just move on and see if we can get back to Aikido.

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-07-2005, 10:29 AM   #157
rob_liberti
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Sunny Liberti wrote:
Your lack of experience with spirituality doesn't mean it doesn't exsist, it means you've never experienced it.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I've also never seen a flying pig, so by your logic I can't say they don't exist?
This is not a logical conclusion. You can SAY anything you want. You'll just have trouble convincing a reasonable person that something doesn't exist based on your lack of experience. I've never been to Durango - I wouldn't say it doesn't exist. Also, why do you think you cannot put a pig in an airplane? I know that is kind of a joke, but maybe it is telling. Isn't it possible that you just aren't looking in the right places for spirituality? I mean a bunch of people today and throughout history seem to think they found it (whereas there are not so many accounts of pigs being launched from catapults like in the Monty Python movie).

So, about aikido....

Last edited by rob_liberti : 03-07-2005 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 03-07-2005, 10:31 AM   #158
sunny liberti
 
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
I've also never seen a flying pig, so by your logic I can't say they don't exist?
And by your logic I should be able to explain what it's like to play in the NFL...

Sunny

A brave man dies once; cowards are always dying." --Moanahonga, Ioway
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Old 03-07-2005, 11:21 AM   #159
Mike Sigman
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
This is not a logical conclusion.
Sorry, Rob, but it IS a logical conclusion. The point is that basing your argument on trying to make your opponent prove a negative is absurd. I can't make an assertion and validate it by saying "you can't prove I'm wrong". If someone wants to insist on or posit "spirituality" as existing, they need to prove their case in some manner, not tell the other person he's wrong because he can't prove the negative.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 03-07-2005, 12:46 PM   #160
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Just to lay this old saw about rape being only about "rage" and "domination" to rest, here's a quote.

Violence and sex are fused. There is something erotic and sexually exciting about inflicting violence upon women

Rape is instrumental. It allows men to gain sexual access to otherwise unattainable women.

Rape is "recreation and adventure" "the element of danger" makes rape "all the more exciting"
If any man believes any of the above, he's a danger to the public. It's sick and twisted thinking (or often lack of thinking). Rape during military attacks (which you mentioned earlier) occurs due to group mentality, lack of thinking, and shifting of blame. It is equally pathological and sick.

I agree with Sunny that any man who thinks that rape is a form of sexual gratification and has nothing to do with violence and domination is pathological - the woman is always hurt and dominated. Part of what makes us human is the ability to see how our actions are affecting others. It's called "Theory of Mind". Some apes have a degree of this also. A man who rapes a woman knows he is hurting and dominating her - he has just given himself permission to do that - so whatever else may (or may not) be going through his mind is irrelevant when it comes to judging him for committing this crime.

The "men can't help it when it comes to their sexual urges" argument was disproven a very long time ago, and I'm disgusted that anybody would even hint to this in the 21st century

Ruth
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Old 03-07-2005, 01:44 PM   #161
Mike Sigman
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Ruth McWilliam wrote:
If any man believes any of the above, he's a danger to the public.
Rather than so much emoting and gnashing of teeth, why don't you go read the page for which I gave the URL? Your ability to wilfully misunderstand the commentary is amazing.

I'm really getting a little tired of the conversation. There's obviously some few whose cause celebre' is the battle between the sexes and think that it excuses obnoxious behaviour. Frankly, I and a number of others left the last dojo I attended regularly because of this constant focus on women, women's power, changing throws so women could tolerate them better, having to avoid conflict by constantly choosing our words so as not to "offend", listening to crap about how Aikido is really "the dance of souls", etc. Granted, a valid topic is that society is undergoing change and "equality" is something to watch out for, but an equally valid topic is why Aikido's name sinks further into the mire the more dojo's and practitioners are forced into extraneous dialogues about extraneous issues.

It's hard for any person to get "good" at a martial art. It's harder still for smaller and less athletic people to really be "good", as a general rule. All you can do is work harder to get there .... carping and whining and devolving to personalities would be a sorry thing for men to do and it's a sorry thing for women to do, as well. There are no passes or excuses for this sort of antagonism. And I don't think I'm alone in this view, by a long shot.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-07-2005, 01:59 PM   #162
rob_liberti
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
It's hard for any person to get "good" at a martial art. It's harder still for smaller and less athletic people to really be "good", as a general rule.
Mike, honestly! Smaller people have a harder time getting "good" at martial arts?! I guess all the Asians are out... I apreciate my dojo and fellow aikidoka more and more...

Anyone want to add something useful to the discussion anymore? Or should I just stop bothering to check up on this thread...?

OOPS!!! This is Sunny!! I posted before I realized that I'm signed in on Rob's account! SORRY for the mix-up!!!!

Last edited by rob_liberti : 03-07-2005 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 03-07-2005, 02:06 PM   #163
Mike Sigman
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Mike, honestly! Smaller people have a harder time getting "good" at martial arts?! I guess all the Asians are out... I apreciate my dojo and fellow aikidoka more and more...

Anyone want to add something useful to the discussion anymore? Or should I just stop bothering to check up on this thread...?
I said "smaller and less athletic" as in "smaller-framed people who are not overly-athletic". You're obviously doing the "deliberately misread in order to have grounds for dissent" now. Let's just drop it if you can't read with the benefit of the doubt or assume that someone's intent may be misread by you.

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-07-2005, 02:17 PM   #164
rob_liberti
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The point is that basing your argument on trying to make your opponent prove a negative is absurd. I can't make an assertion and validate it by saying "you can't prove I'm wrong". If someone wants to insist on or posit "spirituality" as existing, they need to prove their case in some manner, not tell the other person he's wrong because he can't prove the negative.
Mike, I find most of your posts logical. I like that you are willing to say something and try to defend it. I also like that you know an aweful lot about moving your body in a coordinated way. All that is fine. But, everyone makes mistakes, and I think you made one here. Of course, no one can prove a negative. Up to that part is logical enough. I just don't agree with the conclusion you jumped to from there. I would conclude from that situation that neither side could know - not that one side is right (which is a much more logical conclusion based on the lack of facts on both sides). If you can't see that then my guess is that you are blinded to the overall logic by your desire to win a point.

I agree that we shouldn't hide facts to support a cause. I just don't agree that you are standing on as firm a footing as you seem to think.

In my opinion, you mis-interpreted what was written in those citations. My interpretation is that a rape is taking advantage of someone in a sexual way. I agree with you that some rape can be without rage or violence (because I an considering the cases of statatory rape and/or date-rape drugs rapes).

The issue is that in every one of those situations - regardless of how it was manifested - the person who is taking advantage somehow came to the conclusion that this action is OK to do to someone else. Mike, these people are wacko enough. As a self-appointed representative of society, I'd like to ask you to not support their delusional thinking. For people training internal martial arts based on intimacy, it should be abundantly obvious that it's never okay to do that to another person.

So, back to aikido. Has anyone - through their aikido / internal martial arts training - developed a higher degree of sensitivity towards other people's body and psycological fears - such that they are able to really help those people work through their issues? I find this kind of true acceptance one of the main values of the social interaction we get in the dojo. My thougths are that this is the kind of thing we need to do to help all of the people in the dojo process and get beyond a lot of road-clocks so we can get the ukemi to be safe at otherwise dangerous degrees of intensity - and actaully get to some good hard training (in a safe way!).

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 03-07-2005 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 03-07-2005, 02:27 PM   #165
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
The point is that basing your argument on trying to make your opponent prove a negative is absurd. I can't make an assertion and validate it by saying "you can't prove I'm wrong".
Where have I tried to make you prove a negative? I have disagreed with your interpretation of data, challenged your statements of opinion as absolutes, and I have even asked about your expertise in this area. You have addressed none of these. Don't see where I asked you for proof of a negative.

I have also carefully maintained that my words, opinions, and feelings are based on my experiences - ones you clearly don't share.

If you didn't mean smaller people, then why did you say smaller?? If by saying "smaller-framed people who are not overly-athletic" you meant less-muscular - and one could easily infer from the topic at hand that you specifically meant women - my words still apply.

Sunny

A brave man dies once; cowards are always dying." --Moanahonga, Ioway
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Old 03-07-2005, 02:45 PM   #166
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Equitable?

Hi Rob,

Quote:
As a self-appointed representative of society, I'd like to ask you to not support their delusional thinking.
I'm not sure Mike is supporting their thinking...I think he is questioning the some of the assumptions made by 'polical correctness' and the various generalizations that typically go along with it.

Quote:
For people training internal martial arts based on intimacy, it should be abundantly obvious that it's never okay to do that to another person.
Now I *know* that Mike did not say that it is sometimes ok to rape another person...

Ron

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Old 03-07-2005, 02:57 PM   #167
rob_liberti
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Re: Equitable?

Fair enough Ron. I didn't mean to suggest he was saying: Go out there and rape a girl! I give you my permission.

I was saying that these wacko people who take advantage of others have enough excuses, lets not give them more.

I don't care about being politically correct. I think I'm pretty far from that. I won't allow all kinds of non-sense to go on in my dojo. No one may nurse a child on the mat while I'm teaching class. No one is allowed to train in the middle of my mat past the 1st trimester of pregnancy - or allowed to strap a newborn to the outside of their dogi for that matter. They can train off to the side if someone is both willing and able to train with them safely - to my judgment. I've had all kinds of crazy people try to argue this with me before. The bottom line is that I don't care what the rules of society say, we give up a lot of those rights to train in a dojo. For instance even if a women has a permit to carry a gun - she may not go onto my mat packing heat. You just give up rights to train safely with me - that's all and I don't care who likes it really.

My point is that logic is logic, and we should continue to use it no matter how much we want to win. Otherwise you cannot discuss anything and get anywhere.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 03-07-2005 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 03-07-2005, 03:34 PM   #168
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Equitable?

Agreed....

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 03-07-2005, 04:03 PM   #169
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
As a self-appointed representative of society, I'd like to ask you to not support their delusional thinking.
WTF?????? I just showed that rape is not always about "rage and dominance" and by giving sources to prove my point, you think I'm supporting delusional thinking??????????? I can give sources from sociology (which I did) and all I get back is pop PC psychology? I give up.

Mike
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Old 03-07-2005, 04:07 PM   #170
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Re: Equitable?

Well, not trying to beat a dead horse here, but to say that an action is simply "animal behavior", or something like that, bears with it an inhereht excuse. We all accept that animal behavior is what it is without expectation of conscience or moral thought. We don't impugne a lion for killing a gazelle. To place that line of thinking in the domain of sexual assault is certainly implying very strongly that it is normal behavior beyond reproach. If he didn't mean that, he should not have said it.

Sunny

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Old 03-07-2005, 04:24 PM   #171
Mike Sigman
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Rob Liberti about spirituality and proving it wrote:
Of course, no one can prove a negative. Up to that part is logical enough. I just don't agree with the conclusion you jumped to from there.
Then Rob, show the existence of spirituality. I didn't posit it, so if you're supporting the idea, show tangible, objective evidence. Don't put it on me that spirituality exists but that it's "outside my experience".... that's shifting the onus to me, which is the same as asking me to prove a negative. So win your point by showing tangible and objective evidence of spirituality. Don't murmur about me being wrong until you can do that.
Quote:
So, back to aikido. Has anyone - through their aikido / internal martial arts training - developed a higher degree of sensitivity towards other people's body and psycological fears - such that they are able to really help those people work through their issues? I find this kind of true acceptance one of the main values of the social interaction we get in the dojo. My thougths are that this is the kind of thing we need to do to help all of the people in the dojo process and get beyond a lot of road-clocks so we can get the ukemi to be safe at otherwise dangerous degrees of intensity - and actaully get to some good hard training (in a safe way!).
So Rob.... is that part of Aikido or part of something else? Why would practicing Aikido, as opposed to practicing anything else, cause you to "develop a higher degree of sensitivity towards other peoples' body and psychological fear"? Will Aikido also cure warts? (Sorry, couldn't resist..... the debbil made me do it ) I.e., your question assumes that Aikido does certain things and asks people for their experiences with those certain things, but it's certainly a valid question first of all if Aikido really does those things anymore than any other practice. The thrust of my questions is still, "is this a bona fide concern in real, traditional Aikido?".

I asked a question on another thread that I have asked in a number of other martial arts "variants". For Aikido, I'd ask this: Morihei Ueshiba taught a fundamental martial-art/philosophy with certain inclusions.... he called that art "Aikido". If you change what is in the art, that's fine, but why would you take the name of Ueshiba's art and apply it to your own? Of course, I couldn't win that argument because common usage would overwhelm me, but you see the point I'm making. If you love an art, you're indicating some loyalty to it and its principles; if you distort an art from what the founder meant, without permission from the Doshu, are you showing love of the art or arrogant disregard for the art? It's an interesting question, isn't it?

Regards,

Mike
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Old 03-07-2005, 04:26 PM   #172
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Sunny Liberti wrote:
Well, not trying to beat a dead horse here, but to say that an action is simply "animal behavior", or something like that, bears with it an inhereht excuse. We all accept that animal behavior is what it is without expectation of conscience or moral thought. We don't impugne a lion for killing a gazelle. To place that line of thinking in the domain of sexual assault is certainly implying very strongly that it is normal behavior beyond reproach. If he didn't mean that, he should not have said it.
You just built a strawman argument based on the idea that I was saying rape was OK, Sunny. It's offensive.

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-07-2005, 05:12 PM   #173
RonRagusa
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Re: Equitable?

[Rob wrote:
"I don't care about being politically correct. I think I'm pretty far from that. I won't allow all kinds of non-sense to go on in my dojo. No one may nurse a child on the mat while I'm teaching class. No one is allowed to train in the middle of my mat past the 1st trimester of pregnancy - or allowed to strap a newborn to the outside of their dogi for that matter. They can train off to the side if someone is both willing and able to train with them safely - to my judgment. I've had all kinds of crazy people try to argue this with me before. The bottom line is that I don't care what the rules of society say, we give up a lot of those rights to train in a dojo."

This just goes to show what is some folk's "nonsense" brings other folks joy. I have one child who trains with me that started training in the womb. Her mother practiced almost until she delivered. After her daughter was born we passed her through the lines taking turns holding her so her mother could train. They are both still with me. The child will test for 5th kyu at our spring seminar and the mom is now a third Dan.

My dojo is very woman friendly and it's perfectly okay for someone to nurse her baby off to the side of the mat. How could that possibly hurt a thing?

I'm not "crazy" and have no interest in trying to swing you over to my point of view.

Ron Ragusa
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Old 03-07-2005, 05:33 PM   #174
Mike Sigman
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
This just goes to show what is some folk's "nonsense" brings other folks joy. I have one child who trains with me that started training in the womb. Her mother practiced almost until she delivered. After her daughter was born we passed her through the lines taking turns holding her so her mother could train. They are both still with me. The child will test for 5th kyu at our spring seminar and the mom is now a third Dan.

My dojo is very woman friendly and it's perfectly okay for someone to nurse her baby off to the side of the mat. How could that possibly hurt a thing?

I'm not "crazy" and have no interest in trying to swing you over to my point of view.
I honestly don't have any emotional investment in what people do or say or believe, Ron. Of course, what you allow in your dojo is not what O-Sensei would have tolerated in a dojo, but that's between you and him... you're using the name of his martial art, it seems. However, my actual point in even writing was to note that you publicly claim that yours is an "independent dojo" and that your instructors are black-belts certified by you. That's fine, too. But what I think you should have publicly noted is that you are partners with Mary Eastland, who started this whole thread of concern about women in Aikido. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking this, but it's what I would have done.

All the Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-07-2005, 05:51 PM   #175
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
So, back to aikido. Has anyone - through their aikido / internal martial arts training - developed a higher degree of sensitivity towards other people's body and psycological fears - such that they are able to really help those people work through their issues?
Hey Rob,

I wouldn't say that I developed any sensitivity to people's "fears" in particular, but certain elements of my Aikido study has helped me to be more precise (almost impeccably so) in how I observe and detect subtle aspects of verbal language, body language, behavioural change, physical and emotional tension etc. in my partners. To me it is a very important part of Aikido's training system, since (to me) Aikido is about creating the most effective responses to different conflict situations and scenarios via an understanding of the energies involved in the conflict. Thus, I have found that being aware of subtle vagaries in my partner or attacker has helped not only in finding weaknesses to apply effective technique, but also to find precise ways of helping those who have issues (in and out of the dojo). My personal take is that the same tactics used to take balance can be used to restore it and this applies to psychological as well as physical situations. It goes further to the ladies in my class who may have certain problems and issues training with members who are predominantly male and who may sometimes act inappropriately. What I do is try to locate the core issue in all the individuals involved and then bring them to understand and move past it by appreciating the essence of their dojo mate's perception of their actions. This helps folks to get along very well in our dojo, gender equality is pretty much a non-issue and women are not put off by training even though they see some very hard training and ukemi going on. I appeal to their more evolved human sides in a sense, for both males and females.

Quote:
I find this kind of true acceptance one of the main values of the social interaction we get in the dojo.
Well the social interaction is unavoidable since one trains with different partners, but to me the lessons are part of becoming better at Aikido and not even a result of the social interaction so much, since to be better at Aikido (at least in my dojo) your "radar" or your sensitivity to everything that is going on in your environment and with your partner before during and after his/her attack should be able to detect as much information as possible so you can react and move appropriately to complete effective technique.

I understand the intimidation many women may feel walking into a martial arts dojo. What I have found to be helpful to my female students is encouraging them to read literature on Aikido that helps prepare their mind so that they understand the methods and norms behind the training and then equate many things in the practice to things that may be simple to them depending on their occupation, past training etc. (all of which I get on registration). I take a similar method to folks who start Aikido from other MA, I use my cross training or knowledge of those arts to help explain Aikido in a language that makes things appear not as strange and alien to the person.

As far as Ueshiba M.'s Aikido goes, I think the only person who actually did that was Ueshiba M. himself and it died with him. Due to the creative, adaptive nature of Aikido I think the observer effect tends to affect it a lot more than other "rigidly structured and standardized" methods such as Kodokan Judo for example. One only has to look at the many interpretations of "Aikido" from the beginning with Ueshiba M.'s deshi. As such, though one learns the basic form and principle from his/her instructor the Aikido done by that person will be an expression of that person and no one else. This is a manifestation of Shu Ha Ri also. This also refers to women and Aikido since due to some physiological differences that are a constant in the species between male and female (such as Centre of Gravity etc.) there will be differences in how some things need to be taught and how they will be executed. This however should not be an issue in training if one can appreciate the various manifestations of certain principles based on internal and external conditions.

Just my 2 cents. Helping to get stuff back on track.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 03-07-2005 at 05:58 PM.

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