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Old 04-01-2005, 08:57 AM   #376
Sonja2012
 
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Re: Equitable?

Glad to see the humour coming up again

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:

About the the nuts and bolts of equitability, when someone is toxic to many members of either gender in the dojo, what is the best way to deal with them? (I know that when it is the teacher, you leave.) But what about when it is some new student? Or what about some senior student? What about a visitor? Any ideas?

Rob
Just yesterday I read in Bolelli´s "On the Warrior´s Path":

In the Mahaparinivvana-sutra is written: "If enlightening beings practice mundane tolerance and thus do not stop evil people, allowing them to increase in evil..., then these enlightening beings are actually devils, not enlightening beings."

(Please note that I am NOT referring to aynone on this forum with this!)

I am not sure I agree with this in the context of O-Sensei´s vision of compassion and the idea of unifying the world. Just food for thought.
Honestly, if anyone managed to come up with a receipe for how to treat trouble-makers in the dojo in a compassionate, yet effective way, I´d suggets them for the nobel peace prize.

Best regards,
Sonja
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Old 04-01-2005, 09:13 AM   #377
rob_liberti
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Re: Equitable?

Sonja,

That was an awesome post. Wow.

Ruth,

I agree. It occurs to me that the offender might actually be so caught up in dilution (thinking that their toxic behavior is righteous and for the good of real aikido or whatever) that there is no chance to tear down their mental playhouse. I know that there is always the major trump card of "get out" but is there an alternative (worthy of a noble peace prize)? I tried telling a toxic student that he may only be in the dojo if he consistently went out of his way to be helpful, humble, and quiet at all times. He resorted to using judgemental postures like standing back with his arms folded, looking down his nose at a beginner who was confused and looking for help (as opposed to what she got). That was my best attempt before telling him to take some time off.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 04-01-2005 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 04-01-2005, 09:44 AM   #378
sunny liberti
 
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Re: Equitable?

I agree with Rob - excellent post, Sonja!!!!
Quote:
I am not sure I agree with this in the context of O-Sensei´s vision of compassion and the idea of unifying the world. Just food for thought.
I don't see the ideas in the Mahaparinivvana-sutra and Osensei's teaching of compassion as mutually exclusive. I think compassion can be very strong and direct - not just soft and nice. To me it is compassionate to be fiercely honest, when doing so protects ourselves or another from any kind of harm.

Sunny

A brave man dies once; cowards are always dying." --Moanahonga, Ioway
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Old 04-01-2005, 10:07 AM   #379
Sonja2012
 
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I know that there is always the major trump card of "get out" but is there an alternative (worthy of a noble peace prize)?
I refuse to give up trying to find the alternative. I just seem to be miles away from finding it

It may be completely OT, but in ref to compassion: my job as a homoeopath actually has helped me a lot to understand trouble-makers. In homoeopathy we learn a lot about people´s state and behaviour by talking with them about *other* people and by watching their behaviour towards others. It may sound very simple (which in practice it is not so much ), but people generally behave towards others in either the way they themselves want to be treated, or in the way they perceive themselves being treated by others.
As I said, it is not quite as easy as that and it is certainly not meant as an excuse for bad behaviour. But it has shown me that when it comes down to it we are all just people suffering from one thing or the other (including myself, heh ) - and in effect that has taught me compassion. There is not a single patient of mine who, when talking to me in my practice, seems unlikeable any more. They are all just human beings that want to be happy.
Now, I wish I could see that when somebody resists my ikkyo in practice to show me that I am just a little girl All of a sudden it´s just theory again and I forget all about compassion

And now, after exploring the lala/soft aspects of aikido, I´ll go straight to the dojo to practice some nasty, martial nikkyo

Sonja
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Old 04-01-2005, 10:09 AM   #380
Sonja2012
 
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Re: Equitable?

Oh, and by the way:

Quote:
Sunny Liberti wrote:
excellent post
No, just an excellent book
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Old 04-01-2005, 10:25 AM   #381
sunny liberti
 
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Re: Equitable?

And excellent that you applied it here!

Very fitting!

Sunny

A brave man dies once; cowards are always dying." --Moanahonga, Ioway
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Old 04-01-2005, 11:12 AM   #382
Brion Toss
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
OK. Using those criteria then... I conclude you are a witling, Brion. Do you now see the fallacy of allowing those sorts of comments into logical debate? Sure, Brion... you first of all miss the point of why O-Sensei did not allow his students to walk on his right side, his sword-hand side, if you think martial arts was not his focus. Secondly, you have interpreted "relaxed" from the English sense and don't seem to understand that it just means "not stiff", not "unconcerned with the world around us".... But it's worthy of debate, Brion. Debate, as long as it's civil, brings out points of discussion. In other words, you don't really understand violence and death, Brion, you equate any talk of violence as being far removed from "reality" as you see it in the upper Northwest? It's a talking point to you, isn't it? In other words, wouldn't you say that actual fighting seems thuggish and foreign to you? ... People who call names like "sexist", "racist", "chauvinist", etc., are the people trying to stifle discussion, don't you think? ... Out of curiosity, what "artificial advantage" are you talking about? I hope that a survival necessity such as splitting of responsibilities is not what you're thinking of as the original artifice. If that's true then you are doom to the species, Brion. No. Attempting to stifle debate by stigmatizing opposing viewpoints is a well-known debate tactic from far antiquity, Brion. Remember that the next time you attempt to argue by name-calling and not addressing the issues, please.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Witling (one who aspires to wittiness) is indeed a fair conclusion. Reminds me of Wilde's,"One can pretend to be serious, but one cannot pretend to be witty."
As for O-Sensei's sword arm, I am truly sorry if I gave the impression that I thought that he wasn't focused on martial arts. Also sorry if I gave the impression that I translated "relaxed" from anything at all ---what on Earth are you talking about here?
Ah, violence and death. I understand them; they penetrate even here, to the Hobbit Shires of the Northwest. Fighting is not always thuggish, and I would that it were more foreign.
As far as thugs go, I deal with them as I need to; I just would rather not have to deal with them as a result of typing.
I do not think that people who call names like "sexist", "racist", and "chauvinist" are necessarily trying to stifle discussion, though that is sometimes the case. What they might be doing, instead, is describing a fact, or delivering an emotional outburst, or making a mistaken statement, all of which can be addressed rationally.
And that 'artificial advantage'? Nothing to do with adaptive gender roles necessary for the continuation of the species, nothing to do with division of labor based on physiology, no doom of the species or other hyperbole involved. Just the advantages that have tended to go with being a white male in the West.
Finally, also sorry if I indulged in name-calling, as opposed to naming.
Yours,
Brion Toss
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Old 04-01-2005, 11:24 AM   #383
Mike Sigman
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Brion Toss wrote:
Witling (one who aspires to wittiness) is indeed a fair conclusion. Reminds me of Wilde's,"One can pretend to be serious, but one cannot pretend to be witty."
"You can only be young once, but you can be immature forever"? I'll think of your Oscar Wilde comment when I stop by Reading (as in "Reading Gaol") in the next week or so.
Quote:
As for O-Sensei's sword arm, I am truly sorry if I gave the impression that I thought that he wasn't focused on martial arts. Also sorry if I gave the impression that I translated "relaxed" from anything at all ---what on Earth are you talking about here?
Ah, violence and death. I understand them; they penetrate even here, to the Hobbit Shires of the Northwest. Fighting is not always thuggish, and I would that it were more foreign.
As far as thugs go, I deal with them as I need to; I just would rather not have to deal with them as a result of typing.
I do not think that people who call names like "sexist", "racist", and "chauvinist" are necessarily trying to stifle discussion, though that is sometimes the case. What they might be doing, instead, is describing a fact, or delivering an emotional outburst, or making a mistaken statement, all of which can be addressed rationally.
And that 'artificial advantage'? Nothing to do with adaptive gender roles necessary for the continuation of the species, nothing to do with division of labor based on physiology, no doom of the species or other hyperbole involved. Just the advantages that have tended to go with being a white male in the West.
The species evolves gradually. To look back at all our past behaviours, those same behaviours that were the best we could do at a certain time given the circumstances, and to deplore them is one of the trendy absurdities that I have never understood. That was then. Now is now. Steps must be taken but always there's steps.
Quote:
Finally, also sorry if I indulged in name-calling, as opposed to naming.
Not at all. Even in the worst bickering, interesting points come out. I found out something 2 days ago via this list that have really contributed to my knowledge... if you keep digging, you dig things up.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-01-2005, 11:52 AM   #384
Avery Jenkins
 
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The point I've been making is that this sort of discussion is absurd. Women statistically cannot compete fairly on a one to one basis with equally trained larger men in a martial art.
Mike
Well, not entirely, Mike. My daughter, the ninth-ranked archer of her age in the U.S.A., can -- and has -- outshot bigger, stronger, and older men (including her obnoxiously proud dad).

She's not alone, by a long shot (so to speak). Just compare scores by gender from recent national competitions.

So, Mike, for accuracy's sake, let's rephrase what you said, inserting "unarmed" before "martial art," and then we can discuss truth of that satement, shall we?


--Avery (who is currently off the mat nursing a shoulder separation, and thus has plenty of time to kill with silly (but fun) arguments of this nature)
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Old 04-01-2005, 12:22 PM   #385
Mike Sigman
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Avery Jenkins wrote:
So, Mike, for accuracy's sake, let's rephrase what you said, inserting "unarmed" before "martial art," and then we can discuss truth of that satement, shall we?
Fair enough, Avery... and congratulations to her. Incidentally, do women compete against the men in Olympic archery?

Regards,

Mike
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Old 04-03-2005, 09:44 AM   #386
ruthmc
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I tried telling a toxic student that he may only be in the dojo if he consistently went out of his way to be helpful, humble, and quiet at all times. He resorted to using judgemental postures like standing back with his arms folded, looking down his nose at a beginner who was confused and looking for help (as opposed to what she got). That was my best attempt before telling him to take some time off.
Hmm, tough situation. I guess the guy was more concerned with trying to make a point, and playing the passive aggressive game to do so, than he was in learning Aikido.

In an ideal world all Aikido students would be at the dojo because they sincerely want to learn Aikido. In reality, I think a percentage of students are there for other reasons which become apparent after a while spent taking classes. All a sensei can do is to make sure that the sincere students are getting their needs met, and not pander to the other students, who will eventually either decide to become sincere or leave.

I can't think of a fairer way to handle it than this

Ruth
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Old 04-27-2005, 01:52 PM   #387
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Equitable?

from the aiki expo...one more to the mix, and she's a she!

Ron

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=709

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-27-2005, 03:37 PM   #388
John Boswell
 
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
The point I've been making is that this sort of discussion is absurd. Women statistically cannot compete fairly on a one to one basis with equally trained larger men in a martial art.
Mike
Well, well, well. Sorry I missed out on all THIS fun. Mike, people are entitled to their opinions and I'll not begrude you yours. However, statistically speaking, generallizations are never a good way to speak. You can contend all day long about "women" this and that, but I pity you saying such things in the dojo of Mary Heiny Sensei or Patricia Hendricks Sensei.

You speak in broad generalizations about "women." Big mistake.
You speak in a lofty and erudite manner about "women." Another big mistake.

Will you ever pay for speaking is such ways? Not likely, no. But I'd pay top dollar to be there the day you eat your words.

Have a nice day!

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Old 05-11-2005, 12:20 PM   #389
Melissa Fischer
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Re: Equitable?

This may be a dead thread, but I just have to note that there are now 4 women coming to Expo which puts the women:men teachers ration pretty much the same for Expo as for the known universe. So I guess we can get over this and back to training.

Melissa
( I am woman hear me roar...)
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Old 05-11-2005, 08:02 PM   #390
Jeanne Shepard
 
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Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Melissa Pittman Fischer wrote:
This may be a dead thread, but I just have to note that there are now 4 women coming to Expo which puts the women:men teachers ration pretty much the same for Expo as for the known universe. So I guess we can get over this and back to training.

Melissa
( I am woman hear me roar...)
I wish I could come but I am beat with work and school.

JEanne
(I am woman hear me snore...)
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Old 05-11-2005, 08:49 PM   #391
RebeccaM
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Re: Equitable?

I got stuck at work and missed class, so I'll be snoring too...
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