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Old 01-26-2005, 03:15 PM   #1
daniel loughlin
Dojo: Oldham
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Exclamation There's going to be trouble

For a number of weeks now a large gang has been bothering myself and a group of friends trying to get into fights. it has happened before but nothing has come of it yet, they seem to pick on individuals of my friends one at a time.i have tried to keep away from it all however i dont think its working. if they are determined on fighting then there will eventually be a fight. i would appiciate any advice about at what point should i fight as they have tried it on with me before? would this end the recent trouble or amplify it?? coments and advice all welcome with open arms

Danny Loughlin
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Old 01-26-2005, 03:26 PM   #2
Chris Birke
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Re: There's going to be trouble

Unless you like a beating, I would ponder ways to avoid fighting, and go to great legnths to achieve them. If you can see it coming from this far away, you should be able to stay clear.
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Old 01-26-2005, 03:40 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
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Re: There's going to be trouble

It would be VERY helpful to have context: how old are you and what groups are these?

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 01-26-2005, 03:52 PM   #4
JayRhone
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Re: There's going to be trouble

Of course the best thing to do is to always talk your way out of a fight. Some consider this the best way of fighting, to win without any physical violence. If you want to read anything on verbal assaults and attacks and how to get out of confrontations I suggest Aikido in Everyday Life by Terry Dobson and Victor Miller. Good book. I studied a "hard" martial art before Aikido and the rules we were given for fighting were as follows.
1. If the person starts hitting with intent to disable
2. If the person confronts you with a deadly weapon
3. If the person makes his intentions of violence clear and is bigger and older than you.
4. If the person is attacking your friends or loved ones.
We were told if any of these rules aren't in play and the person is pushing you to fight then walk away. If that fails for some reason (Multiple people, you're cornered) then try talking your way out, if the person is persistent then assume a fighting position and prepare to defend your self. Always do the least amount of damage as possible. No need for overkill. Just my two cents.
-Jay

Be the water, not the rock
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Old 01-26-2005, 04:14 PM   #5
EHL
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Re: There's going to be trouble

This might sound weak to some people, but this is what I would do.

1) If you are certain there is going to be a fight, the first thing I would do is inform the police there is a problem. This will not make things any worse as you are already convinced there will be a fight anyway. If you do not alert authorities, and you hurt someone badly you could be in big trouble. Also, maybe they bother other people who are less able to defend themselves.

2) If they are a group picking on you one at a time, chances are you are going to get beat. I'd suggest you run away.

3) If you can't run away, and you are forced to fight, defend yourself but do not attack. If they are a group you will only get beat worse. They will tire quickly, ridicule you and then leave. Revisit #1.

As another poster stated, if you see this coming you can and should avoid it. If you want to try and prove something, you may or may not prove you are a better fighter. You may also prove you are not. And then it will get worse.

Good luck whichever way it goes...
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Old 01-26-2005, 06:39 PM   #6
akiy
 
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Re: There's going to be trouble

The posts regarding "praying for help" have been split off to this thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7417

-- Jun

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Old 01-27-2005, 09:30 AM   #7
Adam Alexander
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Re: There's going to be trouble

First: WWUD (I"m posting this under the other thread to, it's so fitting). What Would Ueshiba Do?

I'm not saying what he would or wouldn't do. I just know how I grew up during the mid to late 80's into the early 90's. If someone, even a few guys (that happened three time), messes with me, whether I was going to take a beating or not, the leader was going to get blasted in the face atleast once.

No-one ever messed with me a second time--whether I won or lost.

Don't use Aikido as an excuse for your fear (if that's the case). It's unbecoming of the art.
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Old 01-27-2005, 09:35 AM   #8
SeiserL
 
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Re: There's going to be trouble

Gotta go a bit with RonJon (but then I grew up in Pontiac during the 50s and 60s). When something cannot be avoided, deal with it swiftly, directly, and without hesitation.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-28-2005, 08:52 AM   #9
GLWeeks
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Re: There's going to be trouble

I agree with RonJon & Lynn....

If it cannot be avoided then the first one who opens his mouth should be the first one to go down... Hard... Really hard...
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Old 01-28-2005, 09:54 AM   #10
Huker
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Re: There's going to be trouble

Here's my philosophy.
Avoid them as long as you can. Don't get caught alone by them, so if you see them, find a place with a more people around. If you and your friends are confronted, try and act peacefully and encourage them to just walk away. If it comes to a fight, don't run unless you're outmatched...no point in fighting if you can't win, right? Running solves nothing. They'll just bother you another day. On top of that, you're turning your back to an opponent, which is very dangerous. If one of their group pulls a weapon, and whether you're alone or not, run if you can. If you can't, drop him. Don't screw around. Drop him and make sure he doesn't get up because there could be another gangmember with another weapon right there. So be quick. There's no point in using a technique to save yourself if you just get done in by someone else a second later. If you're caught alone and there is only one of them and they pull a weapon or attack, then do the "aiki" thing and just make him submit. Then hand him over to the cops and press charges.
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Old 01-29-2005, 09:03 AM   #11
Jordan Steele
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Re: There's going to be trouble

I hate these types of problems because they make victims begin to rethink how they should do this or that. My advice...don't let some idiot alter your daily routine. Do the same things and go the same ways you always have. You're right though, if these guys want a fight they will eventually get one. I think sooner is better than later, get it over with. Answer yourself two questions before you fight...Am I confident that I can handle myself? - How bady will I get hurt? Trust me, you will get hurt in any fight. If and when the fight comes, it is crucial to act in defense, but only from the first attack. After that, use offense and attack anything that moves until you no longer feel threatened. Aikido will not work, by the way. It is going to be messy, loud, and dirty. If you beat the honest to god snot out of the leader, they won't bug you again, in most cases. But you have to act like a true maniac, like you're ready to kill the guy, but you spared him. They will see it in your eyes and be scared.
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Old 01-29-2005, 10:52 AM   #12
donhebert
Dojo: River Valley Aikido
Location: Vermont
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Re: There's going to be trouble

Aikido does not qualify me to advise someone how to resist a gang. Taking Daniel's predicament at face value, it makes me nervous to think that he would feel that he has to fight his way out of this predicament. Without knowing any details (such as Daniel's age, why the gang is hostile to him, where is he likely to encounter them, whether he is a member of rival gang, and so on) any advice runs the risk of not really applying to the situation. However, I support the idea of Daniel seeking help in dealing with this. The police might (or might not) be a good choice, but there may be other adult resources he can approach that would help resolve this without any violence at all (local clubs, church, outreach programs, friends). I think most people want to participate in a civil society where the law is designed to protect people from such harassment. A society where individuals have to resort only to their own defenses against the tyranny of gangs is a rather grim one.

Don Hebert
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Old 01-29-2005, 11:52 AM   #13
David Humm
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Re: There's going to be trouble

Quote:
Daniel Loughlin wrote:
For a number of weeks now a large gang has been bothering myself and a group of friends trying to get into fights. it has happened before but nothing has come of it yet, they seem to pick on individuals of my friends one at a time.i have tried to keep away from it all however i dont think its working. if they are determined on fighting then there will eventually be a fight. i would appiciate any advice about at what point should i fight as they have tried it on with me before? would this end the recent trouble or amplify it?? coments and advice all welcome with open arms
Daniel,

Speeking as a fellow resident of the UK and someone who lived for a period in the Greater Manchester region whilst a Prison Officer.

Lets be realistic. We both know how violent Manchester can be. You must consider the strong possibility that the gang you mention, it's members will more than likely be knife carriers who through the course of a 'fight' will resort to using them.

You MUST inform the local Police. Do you know any of the individuals within the gang ? Where are they in relation to where you work, live or go to school ? Do they know you study Aikido ?

I cannot advise you on the physical course of action to take in the event of a confrontation but, you must attempt to avoid these people at all costs. The problem with gang related incidents is that you my be 'fighting' with one person and its the others you cannot see who pose the greatest risk to you.

Gang members will not 'play fair' and you will (from my experiences) find yourself with injuries caused by the individuals you physically engage with as well as those watching.

Stay safe

Dave
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Old 01-29-2005, 06:58 PM   #14
Chris Birke
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Re: There's going to be trouble

Has a study been done showing that if you beat a gangs leader, the gang gives up? This seems to be a common biblical and saturday morning cartoon theme, but does the real world work like this too?

I hear a lot that "bullies are only bullies because they are secretly very scared and insecure on the inside" and while I'd like to think thats true, as far as I can tell it isn't.

I'm more inclined to think that if you hurt a gang leader, he will go to great legnths to get revenge, and if he can't, him his gang will go to great legnths to get revenge. United they stand.

I'll admit, I havn't done much fighting of gangs though.

Once again, if it really is a gang (and you aren't just making this problem up for the sake of the internet) stay the hell away.
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Old 01-29-2005, 07:19 PM   #15
Dillon
Location: Burlington, Vermont
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Re: There's going to be trouble

I was in an 'incident' with the leader of a group of bullies. He kept trying to get me to fight, and I refused. He swung at me, and I fought back. I thrashed him. Next time I saw him, he had a half-dozen "friends" with him, and he was armed. Needless to say, I got the hell out of dodge.

Dropping the leader is what you're always told to do, but I'm not so convinced that it will save you a righteous beating.

One of my instructors gave the following advice:
"Pick the biggest, meanest, loudest guy. Stick your finger in his eye socked, swirl it around until you catch the nerve on your finger, and pull the eye out. Then lick the eyeball like it was candy on a string."

Personally, I would call the police and try to find another way around it. There's usually nothing to gain by fighting, and it's a hell of a lot to risk for the sake of your ego.

Still, I'm not you.

Aloha,
Dillon
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Old 01-30-2005, 03:52 AM   #16
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
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Re: There's going to be trouble

I agree with Dave.

In Daniel's area and age group there's a good chance that somebody (or several people) will get stabbed. Not a pleasant way to die. Tell the police, tell some older people, tell your sensei - don't walk into this fight as there's a good chance you won't walk out.

It's a sad fact that in modern Britain many kids carry knives, and aren't bothered about the consequences of using them.

Ruth
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Old 01-30-2005, 06:31 AM   #17
taras
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Re: There's going to be trouble

Daniel,

Have you spoken to your Sensei? Whereabouts in Oldham do you train? I used to train under Kolesnikov Sensei at Booth House, in Featherstall Road South. Kolesnikov Sensei is a good man and he might have a piece of advice in that particular situation.

Good luck
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Old 01-30-2005, 09:01 AM   #18
Adam Alexander
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Re: There's going to be trouble

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
Has a study been done showing that if you beat a gangs leader, the gang gives up? This seems to be a common biblical and saturday morning cartoon theme, but does the real world work like this too?.
As a former gang member...

if the leader is took, he loses respect. he "boys" don't follow him any longer. what I've seen outside the gang is that when one of the guy's (non-gang) takes a whoopin, he just gets laughed at and that's it.

But the important part is that you make sure he doesn't want to risk messing with you again.
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Old 01-30-2005, 09:07 AM   #19
Adam Alexander
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Re: There's going to be trouble

didn't O'Sensei say that Aikido was "first and foremost a martial art"?

How is it that so many people who train in a martial art are afraid to tangle?
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Old 01-30-2005, 09:11 AM   #20
thomas_dixon
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Re: There's going to be trouble

Heres my suggestion: Tell the cops. Thats is what they're there for. If you file a complaint, and they do jump you, afterwards, you tell the cops they did, they get charged with assault, and in the least spend some time in juvie.
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Old 01-30-2005, 09:15 AM   #21
thomas_dixon
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Re: There's going to be trouble

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
didn't O'Sensei say that Aikido was "first and foremost a martial art"?

How is it that so many people who train in a martial art are afraid to tangle?
It's avoidance.
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Old 01-30-2005, 09:27 AM   #22
Adam Alexander
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Re: There's going to be trouble

I don't see anything wrong with telling the local beaurocrats so that you lessen the likely of getting in trouble. However, I was under the impression that you trained so that if you're walking down a street and someone tried to interfere with your progress you could eliminate their presence with the least personal effort.
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Old 01-30-2005, 10:18 AM   #23
thomas_dixon
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Re: There's going to be trouble

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with telling the local beaurocrats so that you lessen the likely of getting in trouble. However, I was under the impression that you trained so that if you're walking down a street and someone tried to interfere with your progress you could eliminate their presence with the least personal effort.
So you're going to drop the hot dog guy?

If someone stands interferes with your progression in walking down a sidewalk, you'd walk around them.
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Old 01-30-2005, 02:26 PM   #24
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: There's going to be trouble

I think as martial artist, we must develop a set of ethical criteria in which we all decide what our responses should be. I know now that I am older I have alot more patience and tolerance than when I was younger so that criteria has changed over time.

While I am pretty much a peace loving person and pacifist at heart, I am very clear in my mind the criteria upon which I use mental and physical violence to resolve a situation.

It is good to discuss with those you train with and trust. This criteria will be different for everyone with the deciding factor of if you can live with yourself after your actions and the consequences that go with them.
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Old 01-30-2005, 03:42 PM   #25
Adam Alexander
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Re: There's going to be trouble

Quote:
Thomas Dixon wrote:
So you're going to drop the hot dog guy?

If someone stands interferes with your progression in walking down a sidewalk, you'd walk around them.

whoops, sorry. Apparently I over-estimated your ability to interpret what I was saying. Being that the topic is about a group of "bullies," I figured everyone would understand that I was talking proverbially.

I'll keep you in mind in future posts. Again, sorry.
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