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Old 12-01-2004, 09:33 PM   #1
Don
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What is a "real attack"

So, I have been following many threads on aikiweb generally having to do with the effectivness of aikido techniques. We are taught to attack with a "committed attack", even at slow speed. This generally means follow through intention. So, the central question that relates to whether aikido techniques "really" work is what the most likely nature of a real (i.e. on the street, in the world) attack is?

If it is anything like the brawl seen between the pistons and pacers (NBA teams) then the attackers are just whaling away, wanting to hurt you, which is similar to the idea of a committed attack.

If on the other hand real attacks are more like a sport fighting match, where people are looking for an opening and will instinctivly resist any attempted technique, then much more emphasis needs to be put on atemi that are present when resistance occurs or in developing the ability to execute henka waza.

I personally have had two occasions to use aikido techniques where the person was untrained in fighting systems, and the results mirrored the idea of a committed attack. I was able to execute irimi nage in one case and ended up with a choke after moving behind the attacker as in irimi nage in the other.

However, that all said, I think if one were faced with more than one attacker, while the first attacker might be dispatched, because he was the unlucky schlub who went first and attacked in a committed fashion, I think the second( or succeding attackers) might well fall into a tentative mode and resist techniques.

What does anyone else think?
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Old 12-01-2004, 11:15 PM   #2
Adramalek
 
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Re: What is a "real attack"

Hi Don I had been a bouncer for more than 12 years and a Infantryman for 8 so let me tell you the points of a real attack
1. Intention
2. Violence of Action
3. Commitment

Intention to hurt or kill victim, amount of strength speed and type of attack and willingness to sustain injury as lon as he or she can get toya pal so if you ad the factor TRAINING mining the guy knows what he is doing you are in a world of truble now wile in trainin you should factor in your suroundings expl.: if in a bar how close am I to a stoll or a bottle maybe a chair or table, training should deprive you of space so you learn how to deal with situations when you don't have the freaking Yankee stadium to move around even in Aikido a movement with the body in Tai sabaki fashion can cut the distance to a real attack but if you don't factor in Terrain as part of your training or psychological factors such is there a female present some guys when alone will 75% of the time reason with you but if a woman is watching he will fig th to the bitter end to impress her so basically the only help against real attacks is to receive them in training because when was the last time that you have seen tatami laid out for a street figth or in a club full of people the more realistic the training the smaller the medical bills my little grasshoppers
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Old 12-02-2004, 08:23 AM   #3
SeiserL
 
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Re: What is a "real attack"

Quote:
David Olavarría wrote:
Hi Don I had been a bouncer for more than 12 years and a Infantryman for 8 so let me tell you the points of a real attack 1. Intention 2. Violence of Action
3. Commitment
Spoken like a true bouncer. Compliments and appreciation. Nothing need be more said.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 12-02-2004, 09:32 AM   #4
ian
 
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Re: What is a "real attack"

Yeh, I pretty much agree with everything said here, although the intensions of aggressors can be different (for example sometimes people do just want to restrain you, and as stupid as it sounds, I have had someone litterally just grab my wrist)

I'd also say that atemi are useful in real (esp. more prolonged) situations, but as far as my experience goes, they seem to occur quite spontaneously!

Also, I'm not sure people do 'resist' techniques, 'cos they don't know what you are going to do next (whereas people tend to in the dojo). Basically if they become tentative you suddenly have the upper hand and you can either plow into them, let them back off, of do something different when they attack. I think aikido is a set of tools which you apply (hopefully naturally) to the spontaneous situation of a real confrontation, rather than a set method of behaving.

Last edited by ian : 12-02-2004 at 09:37 AM.

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Old 12-03-2004, 06:31 PM   #5
Don
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Re: What is a "real attack"

Ian's comment may get at what I am wondering about. I read a post talking about people practicing with "full resistance" and that was really what got me thinking, "In a real fight where points are not at stake" are you as an aikidoka going to find yourself in a situation where you have a person struggling with you. I don't think so. We do that when we are playing around in the dojo, but that's what it; playing around.

My admittidly limited experience applying aikido techniques says no. Of course if they get into trying to fake you out and you get into trying to guess, then you fall into their game. Enter a end it.
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Old 12-03-2004, 07:24 PM   #6
L. Camejo
 
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Re: What is a "real attack"

Quote:
Don McConnell wrote:
Ian's comment may get at what I am wondering about. I read a post talking about people practicing with "full resistance" and that was really what got me thinking, "In a real fight where points are not at stake" are you as an aikidoka going to find yourself in a situation where you have a person struggling with you. I don't think so. We do that when we are playing around in the dojo, but that's what it; playing around.

My admittidly limited experience applying aikido techniques says no. Of course if they get into trying to fake you out and you get into trying to guess, then you fall into their game. Enter a end it.
Having been there in real life confrontations with people who both have had a little bit of training and those who have a relatively high degree I can say that encountering resistance in the "Real world" is a very regular thing.

When everything is at stake your attacker will try everything that he can to either succeed in his original intent of damaging you or if he realises he made a bad decision in attacking you he will use everything he can to escape.

Learning to deal with resistance is a very normal aspect of applying Aikido out there where there are no rules. This is one area where typical Aikido dojo and the real world don't converge.

Committed attack in no way means an unbalanced or unfocused attack. It is an attack designed to have its desired effect, to hurt you, not one to allow you to practice a technique comfortably. As such, one does not have to give a "dedicated" attack where it is easy to see the line and get off of it for it to be a committed attack designed to fake you out and put you in a place where it is easier to hit, slash, stab or shoot you. You can enter and end it, but you need to practice this sort of timing, tsukuri and other aspects to make your entry effective, else you just enter and die. Sort of like impaling oneself on a knife.

Just my thoughts from my experiences.

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 12-03-2004 at 07:29 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 12-04-2004, 01:46 PM   #7
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Re: What is a "real attack"

The real attack is often [of course not always] led up to. An individual has to learn how to read body language as well as listen to changes in tone of voice and breathing patterns of the potential threat. When we learn to read people better as well as tone our negotiating skills, often we can defuse situations sometimes with paraphrasing and other verbal strategies, sometimes of curse too we have no other options but to defend against attacks and maybe ultimately unfortunately, fill the perp with smoking holes.

Some folks are truly alive only because it's against the law to kill them. . .
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Old 12-04-2004, 08:14 PM   #8
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Re: What is a "real attack"

To be sure, the contemplation over what a real attack may or may not be is a worthy endeavor - so too is the physical manifestation of one's best ideas on the topic as well. The two have to go hand in hand. My own experience can lend itself to what Mr. Olavarria eloquently described as the primary elements of what a real attack will include or must include. However, it seems a bit unwarranted to jump from this fine and clear-cut definition to notions of resistance being part of a real attacker - which the thread seems to be doing a bit (if you will allow me to say).

After all, resistance is not something innate to the attacker's actions; therefore, it cannot be a priori assigned to the notion of an attack being "real." Resistance requires two parties - not just one - in order to make itself present. Resistance does not exist until the "defender" begins to disharmonize with the attacker. This is not to say that martial harmony (i.e. aiki) in real life is easy - it is damn difficult. Nevertheless, the manifestation of resistance is directly related to the "defender's" incapacity to stay in synch with the attacker's energy. Since that is the case, I think we should note that a real attack is something independent of resistance. If this is accurate, (and this is what is important to note) we are not necessarily dealing with "real" attacks in our training simply because we are experiencing resistance in our training. In my opinion, such resistance would only mark our distance from aiki -- not our proximity to training with or against real attacks.

Humble thanks.

David M. Valadez
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Old 12-08-2004, 02:38 AM   #9
Aikidoiain
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Re: What is a "real attack"

I agree with David Olavarria.

I would also add, that you have to experience a "real attack" in order to fully understand all the factors involved. All the training in the world doesn't prepare you for this - there are too many variables. Being able to accurately and quickly read the body language and assess the pyschological aspects are crucial.

I've already mentioned my experiences of being mugged in other posts, and if I were ever attacked or mugged again, I wouldn't dare to predict the outcome. I've been lucky..so far, that's all. However, I am able to determine what a real attack is now.


Iain.

Last edited by Aikidoiain : 12-08-2004 at 02:49 AM.
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Old 12-15-2004, 01:35 AM   #10
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Re: What is a "real attack"

Man, you guys are really over analyzing a simple thing. A real attack is one that will injure you if it isn't stopped. How many of us are really training against that?
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Old 01-13-2005, 11:55 AM   #11
delarsson
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Re: What is a "real attack"

Then there is many real attacks both in and outside the dojo Got a bad memory in Jo-waza.

one things is for sure. I will never get prepared, doesn´t matter how many times i would get mugged. At least I dont think i would be. Not in a "real life attack".

I agree with Iain and David Olavarria

Take it easy out there.
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Old 01-14-2005, 01:12 PM   #12
jpjaqua
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Re: What is a "real attack"

I think a real attack is someone who enters your sphere with intent to harm you or someone else. I can't pretend to know a lot about Aikido, but I have studied striking arts any have been in many fights that I have NEVER started. People like to go after others that appear to be smaller. I think that in a real situation you should not be thinking about a technique. You should be applying the principals you learn or at some point feel. If you are in a position that is uncomfortable you should keep your distance and force the attacker to enter your sphere. You should attempt to avoid the situation without allowing them to enter your sphere. Once they enter your sphere you should assume the intent is to harm you (a real attack). Then you should get of the line while making them think their attack will work then take their center and never give it back. If their are multiple attackers you should keep them in line so they get in each other's way and use them against each other. I've used this before I ever started Aikido because it made sense. One thing I have never heard discussed in the forums is an attack on someone else. I am more concerned with my family getting harmed than myself. So an even more interesting question is how would you handle an attack on another person?
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Old 01-14-2005, 01:23 PM   #13
jpjaqua
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Re: What is a "real attack"

I also wanted to add, if you ever do get hit by a real attack don't abandon what you know unless it was really hard and you are unconscious. Also, I've only been in Aikido for 5 months so feel free to tell me to shut up if I'm way off. lol...
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Old 01-19-2005, 11:59 PM   #14
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Re: What is a "real attack"

All good stuff... My two bits
Most trained fighters(and some untrained) like to poke at you trying to find an opening. At some point though, if you don't attack, they have to close the distance in order to hurt you. That is the most criticle moment of commitment. If you are controlling the distance, you are actually taking the initiative by forcing your opponenet to close the distance. This is the same no matter what type of attack or attacker is comming at you.
As for resistance. A person can only resist from one direction at a time. I usually find that I can set my opponent up for different locks and throws just by yielding to his/her restance.
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Old 01-22-2005, 03:10 AM   #15
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What is a "real attack"

Dave,

From my experiences, those that want to "poke" at you do not have true intentions to fight with you at that point. They are trying to provoke or look for an excuse to fight. They want it to be "your fault" that the fight started. This stage is what I call "late ego". I have found you can diffuse this situation by walking away to an area around friends, bouncers, or leave (without turning your back). It is philosophical, but my view is that this is conflict, but not a fight. You still have a choice to disengage.

The other type of fighter you run into is the "ambush". They use speed, agility, and suprise to try and overwhelm you before you can react. These you cannot walk away from.

Yea a trained fighter will try and poke and prod to see what makes you tic, that doesn't mean you have to engage him.
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Old 01-28-2005, 03:58 PM   #16
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Re: What is a "real attack"

Maybe when someone's "poking" at you, it's a good time to make a "real attack"?

Ha Ha

Shane
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Old 01-29-2005, 01:18 PM   #17
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What is a "real attack"

depends on the situation. What I like about aikido philosophy that in theory it helps show you that there are many paths and options available from violent to non-violent.
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Old 02-03-2005, 12:26 AM   #18
shaolin_v0.2.8
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Re: What is a "real attack"

Kevin,
I think you missunderstood what I meant by "poke". I am talking about "cherry pickers". People throwing jabs and fakes. Or maybe a quick kick or two. I am also talking about a confrontation already in progress. It is true that they might want you to attack first. But Leaving is not always an option, and backing up can be disastrous. Especially if melee is in progress.
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Old 02-16-2005, 08:36 AM   #19
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Re: What is a "real attack"

The great thing about aikido is you can use it and still avoid a confrontation. I'm not going to sit there and let someone throw punches or even joke around about something if there angry when I could just pin um and then talk to them. I've been in several situations where I have had to do this and it has always ended up good. I even did this to stop someone from starting a fight because I new the person he was trying to start it with had all his friends there. I didn't know the guy but he thanked me after I told him it wasn't worth it and pointed out the situation he was putting himself in. If you try to avoid a situation entirely once someone has shown an intent to want to harm you, you are leaving yourself open to the "ambush". I do agree if it is just an argument than don't argue, but once they enter your spear it is no longer an argument.
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