Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-17-2005, 05:46 PM   #26
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,054
Japan
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

I must add that at Honbu there is no order for kyu ranks. Just the Dan grades.

In my little group I've extended it to Kyu grades - I find its a nice simple way to acknowledge effort put in.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2005, 06:27 PM   #27
Meggy Gurova
Dojo: Chowa
Location: Sofia
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 50
Bulgaria
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

In our dojo the rule is to line up according to the dress code.To the left we have the beginners dressed without gi, then the people with white belt ( 6,5 and 4 kyu), then the people with white belt and hakama ( 3, 2 and 1 kyu), then the black belts.
I have problem lining up when I go to seminars. How am I supposed to know were to sit? And it seems like everybody else knows where they should sit! I always try to sit to the left off the hakama people but there is always a fight for those places
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2005, 06:45 PM   #28
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

We don't line up by rank, we just go get in line. Nevr had to do the rank thing for seminars,either.
When we line up tho, our highest ranking member, who is 75, usually sits closest to the door...

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2005, 07:42 PM   #29
Pauliina Lievonen
 
Pauliina Lievonen's Avatar
Dojo: Jiki Shin Kan Utrecht
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 560
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

We do line up by rank, but not religiously, that is, it's more important that it happens without fuss than that everybody is exactly in their correct place. Dress code is usually observed at least, sweats left, hakamas right and everybody else in the middle. At our own seminars it's mostly just hakamas right and everybody else left.

During class people are free to line up whereever they want, but we have a heck of a time of convicing newbies to come out of their safe left corner sometimes.

kvaak
Pauliina
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2005, 04:37 AM   #30
Natasha Bradley
Dojo: Aikido School Leiden
Location: Leiden
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

Our usual line-up is men on the right, women on the left. It's not about dividing the sexes, but the ladies changing-room is furthest away from the mat and we're usually too busy chatting and we have to come rushing in in time as everyone starts sitting in seiza. (that is, if the women come to class, it's been very lonely in the changing-room recently: girls, where are you?)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2005, 05:08 AM   #31
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

Quote:
Meggy Gurova wrote:
I have problem lining up when I go to seminars. How am I supposed to know were to sit? And it seems like everybody else knows where they should sit! I always try to sit to the left off the hakama people but there is always a fight for those places
But how could that be when you are one of the hakama people?

At seminars I just try to sit somewhere in the middle.. not below the 6 kyus and not with to high ranking yudansha..
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2005, 05:26 AM   #32
Meggy Gurova
Dojo: Chowa
Location: Sofia
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 50
Bulgaria
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote:
But how could that be when you are one of the hakama people?

At seminars I just try to sit somewhere in the middle.. not below the 6 kyus and not with to high ranking yudansha..
I meant the place to the left off the people with hakama and to the right off the people without hakama, that's where we people with 3 kyu should be I suppose, but it feels like everybody else is 3 kyu, because when I try to sit next to the 4 kyu people (and try to get there) I usually end up siting next to the black belts anyway, for some reason...
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2005, 07:08 AM   #33
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,000
Japan
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
When seated in seiza at the beginning or ending of the class for bowing, people is seated by rank order.

My question is, for proper etiquette, in what order people with the same rank has to be seated?

Date of testing/rank?
Date of joining the dojo?
Age?
Other?

Tanks and regards.
I think there is no standard protocal anyway. In the Aikikai Hombu there is no lining up according to rank or seniority and I have never experienced this in all my 35 years of aikido training.

So, my question to you is: by what standards do you define "proper etiquette"? In the Aikikai, etiquette seems to depend on local practice and traditions, rather than any directive or example from Japan. The only 'proper etiquette' I am familar with is that the lines should be straight and people should not line up too closely together.

In Japanese university clubs the situation is quite different, with kanbu students at the front, 2nd year students behind, and freshers, with or without keikougi, depending on the tine of the year, in the 3rd row. Fourth year students and senior people line up in the last row. However, I have never encountered this practice outside Japanese universities.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2005, 08:12 AM   #34
Meggy Gurova
Dojo: Chowa
Location: Sofia
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 50
Bulgaria
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
The only 'proper etiquette' I am familiar with is that the lines should be straight and people should not line up too closely together.
Here in Sweden we sit very close to each other, and sometimes we are so close it's hard to breath properly
So once I went to visit a dojo in another country and when we line up (we were 3 that day, me and 2 guys) they were sitting the length off one bokken apart from each other, then I line up to the left off the guy in the middle and very close to him. I assumed the other guy to the right was going to move closer, but he didn't. Then the guy in the middle looked at me and started to feel uncomfortable
So thats the way I understood I has supposed to make a distance. I was so embarrassed!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2005, 10:14 AM   #35
Terry Donaghe
Dojo: Aikido of Scottsdale
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 12
United_States
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

At my dojo we line up in ranks with no regards to order in a particular rank. When we practice sensei likes for everyone to mix up usually senior people with less experienced people. The yudansha usually get the chance to beat up on each other when sensei splits the class into larger groups for some exercize.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2005, 04:00 PM   #36
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 522
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

We always have some experienced students at the beginners' classes. Last night we ended up with a first kyu, a fourth kyu, and two first-week newbies. By accident of arrival order that was the way we sat down, so we were sorted by rank.

I actually felt quite uncomfortable with this; the newcomers seemed to read it as "us" versus "them" and were noticably uneasy about approaching the seniors to train. Since the reason we have beginners' classes is to train the beginners, not to train the senior students, this is the last thing we want. The senior students made sure to break up the seating order after the first technique and not let it get like that again.

Ordinarily we never line up by rank for anything, even seminars; the only exception is group photos, which put hakama wearers in front. Even the kids, who wear colored belts, don't do it. I wouldn't object to the practice if I were a guest, but I wouldn't commend it to my own dojo.

I visited one dojo that had a tradition of training in gi and white belt, for everybody, in the summer. It was fun trying to guess ranks, especially across a style difference! I usually wasn't off by too much, it turned out.

Mary Kaye
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2005, 02:14 AM   #37
batemanb
 
batemanb's Avatar
Dojo: Seibukan Aikido UK
Location: body in UK, heart still in Japan
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,029
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

Quote:
Mary Kuhner wrote:
We always have some experienced students at the beginners' classes. Last night we ended up with a first kyu, a fourth kyu, and two first-week newbies. By accident of arrival order that was the way we sat down, so we were sorted by rank.

I actually felt quite uncomfortable with this; the newcomers seemed to read it as "us" versus "them" and were noticably uneasy about approaching the seniors to train. Since the reason we have beginners' classes is to train the beginners, not to train the senior students, this is the last thing we want. The senior students made sure to break up the seating order after the first technique and not let it get like that again.
We only line up in grade order for the starting rei and the ending rei. During class you sit were you land when jumping back into line. We explain this to everyone when they start, helps get over any us vs. them issues.


rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2005, 02:09 PM   #38
Kevin Kelly
Dojo: Aikido of Reno
Location: Fernley, NV
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 64
United_States
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

Quote:
Meggy Gurova wrote:
Here in Sweden we sit very close to each other,
So do we. Just about hip to hip.

Quote:
Meggy Gurova wrote:
So once I went to visit a dojo in another country and when we line up (we were 3 that day, me and 2 guys) they were sitting the length off one bokken apart from each other, then I line up to the left off the guy in the middle and very close to him. I assumed the other guy to the right was going to move closer, but he didn't. Then the guy in the middle looked at me and started to feel uncomfortable
So thats the way I understood I has supposed to make a distance. I was so embarrassed!
Our classes are usually pretty big, so we try to squeeze everyone into one line. Even when the classes aren't that full, we tend to sit right next to each other.

Our classes, we have Sensei up front, Black Belts just behind and to the far right of mat in their own line, everyone else behind them.

After we are done practicing whatever it is that Sensei showed us and he claps twice, everyone just moves to the sides of the mat, in no particular order and sit in seiza to watch the next technique.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2005, 04:11 PM   #39
stuartjvnorton
 
stuartjvnorton's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Shudokan
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

Quote:
Brandon Cole wrote:
I can't image having 30+ people trying to figure out how to line up.
That's the thing: you don't need to figure out 30+ people: you only need to work out about 5 or 6 people at the most (not all of whom will be there in the 1 class anyway). The rest are obviously above or below you.
To be honest: those 6 or so are pretty easy too, seeing as you most likely went through the ranks with them.
The only uncertainty is if you join a dojo that does it and you have some rank already.
In that case, I'd suggest sitting at the bottom of the belts of your colour until the others invite you to sit above them, which they will usually do when they are used to ordering themselves.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2005, 05:52 PM   #40
Lyle Laizure
 
Lyle Laizure's Avatar
Dojo: Hinode Dojo LLC
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 560
United_States
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

By testing date and if there are more than one person testing for the same rank during a given testing it is the eldest who would then be senior.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2005, 10:18 PM   #41
jimbaker
Dojo: Aikido of Norfolk/ Aikido Society of Memphis
Location: Norfolk, VA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 150
Antarctica
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

A while ago back in Brooklyn, we were, as usual, spread out all over the place waiting for Hal to get on the mat.

Hal looked out at us and said, "Could you give me a straight line?"

Mike looked up at him and said, "Two jews walk into a bar...".

Maybe it helps to get it if you're from Brooklyn.

Jim Baker
Aikido of Norfolk
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2005, 12:25 AM   #42
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

I can`t help thinking that lining up by rank is similar to the problem that Saotome Sensei saw in dojo where only yudansha wore hakama. He wrote in one of his books that at such dojo, the yudansha were often egotistical. I can see this being the same in the idea of lining up by rank.

Charles Hill
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2005, 08:22 AM   #43
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
I can`t help thinking that lining up by rank is similar to the problem that Saotome Sensei saw in dojo where only yudansha wore hakama. He wrote in one of his books that at such dojo, the yudansha were often egotistical. I can see this being the same in the idea of lining up by rank.
I think that blaming things like hakama, lining up by ranks, or competition (in reference to a different thread) for egotistical behavior is like me blaming my fork because I'm fat. The egotistical behavior happens because the dojo culture somehow supports it. It's the Sensei's responsibility to guide the culture in the dojo so that these things don't happen. It is completely and realistically possible to have all of these things (and others) without encouraging egotistical behavior in the students. I'd say that changing these things in an attempt to curb egotistical behavior would be like putting a band-aid on a severed hand....it might stop the bleeding but it doesn't fix the problem.

Just my take.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2005, 04:16 PM   #44
stuartjvnorton
 
stuartjvnorton's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Shudokan
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

Couldn't agree more, Bronson.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 04:50 AM   #45
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote:
I think that blaming things like hakama, lining up by ranks, or competition (in reference to a different thread) for egotistical behavior is like me blaming my fork because I'm fat.
I don`t think Saotome Sensei`s point was that due to hakama policy that people are egotistical, but I`ll have to read the book again to be sure. I guess it could also be taken as a symptom, not a cause.

In Japanese culture, it is important to know where one stands in relation to another. Maybe that is where the lining up by ranks comes from. But then again, as Prof. Goldsbury pointed out, it is not down at Aikikai Honbu. In a non-Japanese culture, I am not sure it is necessary.

Charles
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 07:33 AM   #46
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Seiza by ranks?

Well, I guess it would depend on *which* hombu you were training at... since some hombu do use the practice of lining up by rank.

Its interesting though...I do know one school that had a tradition of lining up by rank...the instructor now simply wants an orderly line, irrespective of rank for the most part (the senior student still leads the opening and closing rei). There is even a class where only the instructor and his assistant typically wear their black belt...just about everyone else wears white. At first there was a mad scramble for everyone to get their 'real' obi for the next class...but now many people just continue wearing their white belt for all three sessions.

I'm of two minds about this...in a dojo where aikido is thought of as culture, it may be important to understand the traditions, their place in the original society, and the meaning/purpose behind them. On the other hand, you can only transplant so much of the original culture without warping it (and perhaps fostering some of the things Charles and Saotome Sensei are/were thinking of). I guess as with most things, its a thin line...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Training from seiza vs sitting MM Training 3 02-05-2005 11:00 PM
Seiza and Calves Pain Thomas Ambrose Training 14 08-25-2004 02:56 AM
Seiza Kung Fu Liane Training 21 02-25-2003 03:40 PM
Seiza muffinman Techniques 9 05-31-2002 05:54 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:36 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate