Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-13-2005, 11:45 AM   #1
vanstretch
Dojo: Kyushinkan
Location: Roswell,GA
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 123
United_States
Offline
PBT question

Hi all, just finished re-watching the scene in SS/path beyond thought video. I want to focus specifically to the scene where there is a dan test being given and the testee is on the ground, and on his back with several uke on him. Sensei is yelling at him to get up and keep fighting. Isn't it too late at this point? Is biting and nut squeezing ok? I ask you all who may have seen the footage; what lessons did you learn from watching that portion of the video, and what would you do in similar circumstances? Respectfully, thank you for any well thought and insightful responses.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2005, 02:18 AM   #2
batemanb
 
batemanb's Avatar
Dojo: Seibukan Aikido UK
Location: body in UK, heart still in Japan
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,029
Offline
Re: PBT question

I haven't seen the footage, but in my opinion, there is no competition in Aikido, so there are no rules . To coin and adapt an old Aiki quote, if you extend ki when doing it, nut squeezing is Aikido .

With regards to being too late, yes and no. Yes, in that you have allowed yourself to be taken down, so something must not have been right. Yes, if you have been immobilised. No, if you can still move and use your guile to find a way out, biting and nut squeezing are two possible options, as is ripping ears, gouging eyes etc. It really depends on the situation though, these are not things that I would do in a training environment (which means that I wouldn't do them in the same scenario as the video), but I wouldn't hesitate if it was in a dark alley being set upon. Having said that, I would hope that training would help me avoid that kind of situation in the first place.

just an opinion.

rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2005, 02:50 AM   #3
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: PBT question

Biting and nut squeezing during a dan test? I don`t think this is a good way to make friends in your dojo!

Bryan, just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?

Charles
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2005, 04:13 AM   #4
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: PBT question

I know the footage you refer to and I have trouble figuring out the thinking behind it. It wasn't structured to teach the flow and timing of normal jiyu waza and I struggled to understand what the point of it was. To teach the student that 3 people trying to take you down is hard to deal with? Well no prizes for that. And to really apply aikido in that situation you'd probably want to start by knocking teeth out. (well some sort of liberal ukemi). If it was there to instill some humility in potential new black belts, maybe that makes sense. But as a test of Aikido it seemed pretty pointless, the odds were too stacked.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2005, 04:57 AM   #5
batemanb
 
batemanb's Avatar
Dojo: Seibukan Aikido UK
Location: body in UK, heart still in Japan
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,029
Offline
Re: PBT question

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Bryan, just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?
He'd probably just shout "kiai ho silver" and knock all his uke's down with breath power, either that or gun 'em down with his six gun .

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2005, 05:00 AM   #6
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Re: PBT question

From the video I got the impression that this test (more then anything) was to see how you keep in control and how you handle a situation were you have lost control. FWIW it seems that Steven Seagal wanted to push them to the edge to see how they behave. Or maybe he just wants them to get up on their feet again as fast as possible...

Steven Seagal seem to take randori very seriously and always wants his ukes to try to actually bring him to the ground. How well he actually manage to teach this I don't know. A discussion with someome who has been at these tests said that of all of the testees (he saw) only Matsuoka could handle the randori as gracefully as Seagal. FWIW

Last edited by Aikilove : 02-14-2005 at 05:05 AM.

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2005, 06:26 PM   #7
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: PBT question

Hmmm.....I saw the footage of the tests and I saw footage of Seagal doing Jiyu Waza. I didn't see footage of Seagal dealing with the same types of attacks as the testees were facing. Which is a shame, that would have been interesting.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2005, 02:50 AM   #8
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Re: PBT question

Are you sure they didn't attack the same? To me it looks more about how he controls the group as a whole compared to the shodan testees. I think if he would stop the attacks would look the same.

MHO of course.

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2005, 03:37 AM   #9
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: PBT question

Yeah pretty sure. When I watched Seagal's uke's come in and imagined what I might do it was standard jiyu waza type stuff. Traditional attacks. When I watched them come in on the tests it was immediately obvious an different strategy would be required. Much of it involveing atemi

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2005, 10:14 AM   #10
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Re: PBT question

I read somewhere that once on a seminar Reynosa's students had previously been drilled to really take nage to the ground (after being scolded by SS) in randori. When Seagal in the seminar asked for these ukes, they really went in there, took Seagal by surprice, and took him to the ground. Seagal was however very quickly back on his feet again and the randori went from then on as smooth as it can be when 3 people are trying their best to take you to the ground. He didn't go down again...

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2005, 01:02 PM   #11
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: PBT question

That may be so. Or it may be a story that has grown in the telling. Either way, would have been nice to see footage.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2005, 02:51 PM   #12
csinca
 
csinca's Avatar
Dojo: Various
Location: Southern California
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 66
United_States
Offline
Re: PBT question

Couple of comments:

Yes three man randori is tough, but then again isn't this a realm where aikido in theory excels? Flowing with the movement, not getting involved with one person etc... If your immediate reaction to a tough situation is to knock peoples teeth out, are you also training heavily in atmei to back that up? What about two guys, do you still just bang heads or do you practice your aikido then. What about one really bug guy with bad breathe? How quickly are you going to abandon your aikido and start crushing genitalia?

Second, at the end of the tape, you hear Seagal Sensei saying "show what you've got when you've got nothing left". That's how I interpreted the test randori. Put someone in a no-win situation and see if they still keep trying to survive or do they just give up. My sensei has a tendency to push us to our limits on a test to see whether the mind, body or spirit gives out first. I've also seen it in othr dojos and other arts. Fairly common I think.

Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2005, 03:09 PM   #13
John Boswell
 
John Boswell's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: PBT question

Quote:
Chris Sacksteder wrote:

Second, at the end of the tape, you hear Seagal Sensei saying "show what you've got when you've got nothing left". That's how I interpreted the test randori. Put someone in a no-win situation and see if they still keep trying to survive or do they just give up. My sensei has a tendency to push us to our limits on a test to see whether the mind, body or spirit gives out first. I've also seen it in othr dojos and other arts. Fairly common I think.

Chris
That's an interesting point.

Granted, I'm not in the greatest shape by any measure, but on my last test for 2nd kyu... the only thing that kept me going was the thought that I had no other option! Sensei kept calling out more and more and more techniques to be done. I think the whole test lasted an hour, and that is with a break as a 1st kyu test was running simultaniously!

But to push it till you have no more... and then keep going, that would be a true test of Randori. If that is what Segal Sensei was doing, then I can respect that. If he was just being a hardaz... well, can't say I like that idea.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2005, 07:46 PM   #14
csinca
 
csinca's Avatar
Dojo: Various
Location: Southern California
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 66
United_States
Offline
Re: PBT question

In our second to last Nidan test, I ended up catching the "tester" during randori as he passed out (it was at the end of a two hour test). At our dojo the sensei sees you practice every day on the mat and they know what you can do in a class environment. The real test is what can you do under stress?

Of course I know that this isn't for everyone and that's fine. There are other places to train that deliver other things.

Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2005, 01:00 PM   #15
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: PBT question

Quote:
Chris Sacksteder wrote:
Couple of comments:

Yes three man randori is tough, but then again isn't this a realm where aikido in theory excels? Flowing with the movement, not getting involved with one person etc...
In theory. And we use a drill called jiyu waza to develop that. But it's just that, a drill. If you think your Aikido gives you the ability to keep your feet against 3 people intent on dogpiling you, I've got some bad news...
Quote:
If your immediate reaction to a tough situation is to knock peoples teeth out, are you also training heavily in atmei to back that up?
Sure, that's what cross training is for
Quote:
What about two guys, do you still just bang heads or do you practice your aikido then. What about one really bug guy with bad breathe? How quickly are you going to abandon your aikido and start crushing genitalia?
What on earth makes you think that applying atemi is abanoning my aikido? Two guys? You bet I'm going to want to strike as I enter. One guy? If it's a serious situation? Same answer. But look at the footage again. From memory I think every nage in that test gets caught going backwards. The only way to enter and take control is to do it decisivly and against three, with those sorts of attacks, you certainly would need to be striking. You still don't have much of a chance, but better than just trying to apply pure waza
Quote:
Second, at the end of the tape, you hear Seagal Sensei saying "show what you've got when you've got nothing left". That's how I interpreted the test randori. Put someone in a no-win situation and see if they still keep trying to survive or do they just give up.
Well hang on which is it, something which Aikido excels at or a no win situation? Like I say if it's there to instill humility and make people realise they're not ready to talk smack to a gang, or if it's there to simply see how they fight when everything goes to hell, fair enough I guess. But if it's supposed to be a demonstration of Aikido technique, I think it has limited value.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2005, 06:09 PM   #16
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: PBT question

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
That may be so. Or it may be a story that has grown in the telling. Either way, would have been nice to see footage.
Yes.

It looked to me, too, like his UKE were tanking for him. That's why I have a problem with such a macho test: What's good for the goose is good for the gander--a right cross from NAGE might slow down UKE, no?

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2005, 06:34 PM   #17
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: PBT question

Ah, a man after my own heart.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2005, 02:51 AM   #18
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Re: PBT question

C'mon guys, give me a break. I'm not here to defends anyones aikido, least of all Seagal's (I wouldn't assume to know jack diddilido about his ability in so call real randori unless I was one of the ukes myself), but how many times have you done randori agains three people? I assume the answer is many times right? Good, How many of those time did you throw a "right cross" at uke? Actually let it even go one step down. During normal practice - how many times do you as uke "tank" and go down or take a high fall or rolling fall - for the safety of your wrist, neck, elbow, shoulder etc because you know that nage could just push through if you resisted?
I imagine that during instruction you don't ask your uke to go all out and try to take you to the ground at all cost, right? However I also imagine that someone like Seagal or Ledyard that takes randori very seriously have done the exact same test (not necesarely in an examination, mind you) like you see in PBT, to examine the dynamics of randori , , the speed and group psychology of randori. They then develop a teaching method based on this and try the best as the can to teach this. As you know however, when you teach you want the principles and techniques to be as clear as possible so don't ask for ukes that tries 100% to destroy your technique (that would be a short-lived uke indeed!), do you?

peace!

Last edited by Aikilove : 02-17-2005 at 02:54 AM.

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2005, 02:56 AM   #19
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Re: PBT question

And FWIW during one of the sequences of randory teaching Seagal, did deliver straight punch and kicks as an example.

Last edited by Aikilove : 02-17-2005 at 02:58 AM.

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2005, 04:02 AM   #20
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: PBT question

Quote:
Jakob Blomquist wrote:
C'mon guys, give me a break. I'm not here to defends anyones aikido, least of all Seagal's (I wouldn't assume to know jack diddilido about his ability in so call real randori unless I was one of the ukes myself), but how many times have you done randori agains three people? I assume the answer is many times right? Good, How many of those time did you throw a "right cross" at uke?
none. But then I was doing jiyu waza not randori in the same sense the testees were doing. If I had three people coming at me in the same way as those students did, I suspect it would be atemi strongly or hit the mat. In a dojo setting I'd do the latter, just like the students.
Quote:
Actually let it even go one step down. During normal practice - how many times do you as uke "tank" and go down or take a high fall or rolling fall - for the safety of your wrist, neck, elbow, shoulder etc because you know that nage could just push through if you resisted?
I have no problem with people giving ukemi to some degree. the best analogy I've heard is that it's our version of the tap out. When you know nage's in a position to finish, you ukemi as a way of submitting (rather than deal with the consequences). But that's not what we're talking about. The issue I'm addressing is not that SS ukes in the footage gave him ukemi so much as the attacks and intent he was facing was not the same as his students. In the footage. He may face such attacks other times, but we're not to know.
Quote:
I imagine that during instruction you don't ask your uke to go all out and try to take you to the ground at all cost, right? However I also imagine that someone like Seagal or Ledyard that takes randori very seriously have done the exact same test (not necesarely in an examination, mind you) like you see in PBT, to examine the dynamics of randori , , the speed and group psychology of randori. They then develop a teaching method based on this and try the best as the can to teach this. As you know however, when you teach you want the principles and techniques to be as clear as possible so don't ask for ukes that tries 100% to destroy your technique (that would be a short-lived uke indeed!), do you?
you're right to some degree, but that's not what we're talking about. It's not an issue of teaching style.
My observation is simply this. The randori the students faced had the odds stacked against them to such a degree they would never be able to pull of clean aikido waza without strong use of atemi first (which isn't approprate for dojo practice without protection). If it was expected that they do cope with this randori in this school it would have been nice to see how their instructor does the same exercise. We got to see him do a related and similar exercise but not the same. We saw no footage of how SS deals with similar style attacks. Which I would have been keen to see. We did see footage of SS "demonstrating" rather than teaching (so your last point doesn't apply) but we saw no footage of him demonstrating the same scenario we saw in his students shodan test.
I mean hey, I'm not a SS basher - I've never understood people who claim he doesn't do aikido in his movies - I really like the way he presents some of the possibilities in the art. All I'm saying is that whenever people talk about PBT the randori sections get alot of focus - and I'm amused when I hear people say how tough it was and how good SS looks doing it - because that's not what we got to see.

Last edited by Aristeia : 02-17-2005 at 04:07 AM.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2005, 08:03 AM   #21
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Re: PBT question

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
The randori the students faced had the odds stacked against them to such a degree they would never be able to pull of clean aikido waza without strong use of atemi first
I disagree... You even see at one or two occation how the student actually handle it nicely... for about 2 seconds... and then turn his/her back towards an uke.
Look, I'm not disagreeing about the need for atemi (in reality). In the dojo however a punch should never land unless uke agree upon it. So how do you then go about it in randori. Well, since it is understod that uke in the dojo do not try to hurt you only try to control you as fast as possible (mostly by taking you to the ground and pin you there), they understand that you won't try to hurt them either - ukemi. So... in theory maky sure you never leave your back towards anyone - implies everyone are in front of you - and move in such a way to a) keep them from in a balanced position griping you, so that if the do get hold you should be able to make them let go quickly , b) always keep you own balance, c) keep them in front of you.
Sometimes it means you first have to step back a little bit in order to collect them in front of you and then move to their collective side (irimi, tenkan). No fancy waza, just movement and deflection. If you by your movement make them loose balance - great one less for a while.
...in theory.
I have seen this demonstrated nicely by Matsuoka at Aiki Expo.
And I have been told by someone who was there, that Matsuoka did the same (stay on his feet, that is) at one of his dan tests in front of Seagal.

Also the clip of Seagal at all japan aikido 1995 (aikidojournal.com) in the end of the randori portion the uke start to gain attention to really go for it (100%? of course not...) and he even let a couple of them get really close just so that he can lead them out of the mat while he steps to the side.

Enough technicality.... but I disagree in the sence that even at the settings of these test I think it's more then possible to control the situation without (to much) atemi. Easy? #### no!

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2005, 04:56 PM   #22
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: PBT question

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
My observation is simply this. The randori the students faced had the odds stacked against them....If it was expected that they do cope with this randori in this school it would have been nice to see how their instructor does the same exercise. We got to see him do a related and similar exercise but not the same.
Mr. Fooks,

You and I operate on the same wavelength.

Mr. Blomquist,

Thank you for your continued engagement. But,

--what Fooks said!

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2005, 07:34 PM   #23
csinca
 
csinca's Avatar
Dojo: Various
Location: Southern California
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 66
United_States
Offline
Re: PBT question

Mr. Fooks,

I appreciate your comments and believe it or not we agree. The drive behind my comments is that a great number of aikidoka (not necessarily those that have posted on this thread) make a couple of claims that I find naive. I also post on a couple other threads and I've done a bit of dojo visiting here in the Southern California area and I've noticed the following:

1. I've never visited an aikido dojo or attended a seminar where there was any decent atemi training. Therefore I tend to question aikidoka in general when they thinh they are going to be effective in striking. I firmly agree that cross training is great for this, that's why I've crosstrained in pure striking arts for a few years now!

2. Aikido is often proffered as the ultimate art for multiple attacks with varied supporting arguements. My personal feeling is that three guys with any skill coming at me and there is at least one person that won't be walking away. I'm a bigger fan of a nice low roundhouse to collapse the knee and then a hook rather than a cross, but that's just me.

3. More than one aikido has expressed to me the opinion that busting skulls is not aikido and that atemi is not intended to be the main thrust of the movement. Now I don't agree with this. I firmly agree with one sensei who translates irimi as "entering with destructive force"

As for the no-win situation, I'd have to say that for the nages in the video, 3 on 1 seemed to be pretty much a no-win.

I also recognize that even against a single skilled opponent there si no guarantee that you can keep you feet, much less three. I spent too many years of aikido training being told to do "this, that or the other thing" against someone coming in for a takedown. The a BJJ guy introduced me to a really nice single leg!

Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2005, 11:00 PM   #24
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: PBT question

Crickey, I go away for a few hours and all of a sudden people start addressing posts to my father.
We seem to be in agreement on the broadstrokes. I go back and forward on how much time should be devoted to things like striking in Aikido. At our dojo we are limited to 60 minute classes so by the time you get in warm ups exercises etc you don't want to take to much more time from waza. My own approach is to show where strikes are available in various movements, and advise people to spend time learning how to do it properly with people who can teach them better than myself. Or failing that a heavy bag and some bag mits.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2005, 05:27 AM   #25
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Re: PBT question

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Crickey, I go away for a few hours and all of a sudden people start addressing posts to my father.
We seem to be in agreement on the broadstrokes. I go back and forward on how much time should be devoted to things like striking in Aikido. At our dojo we are limited to 60 minute classes so by the time you get in warm ups exercises etc you don't want to take to much more time from waza. My own approach is to show where strikes are available in various movements, and advise people to spend time learning how to do it properly with people who can teach them better than myself. Or failing that a heavy bag and some bag mits.
Agreed! Same here...

Ps.. Does Mike work Ds.

Pps. Fwiw - When I was attacked once by two people (a straight strike from the first and a straight kick by the other), in both cases, I moved off to their inside which lead to a fall forward of the first (I barely touched him) and after a open hand push towards the chest simultaniously with the move as the other one kicked he lost balance backwards, (I had time to save his scull by catching him as he fell backwards and sending him forward too on top of the first one). So yea I do believe atemi is necessary (Although I didn't needed to do any strong one then I suspect I was prepared to do so if the initial movement wouldn't have sufficed), but timed movement is A and O. FWIW. Dds.

Last edited by Aikilove : 02-18-2005 at 05:40 AM.

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brawling with a friend Luc X Saroufim General 227 07-17-2006 08:33 PM
My answer to a very good question: Charlie General 1 08-02-2005 08:10 AM
question that stumped meİİİ Jeff Tibbetts Spiritual 32 12-06-2002 10:11 AM
Article: Thoughts on Bugei Studies by Karl Friday AikiWeb System Training 28 04-27-2002 06:21 PM
Question about clothing Shouri (Steve) General 3 07-26-2000 10:44 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:30 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate